High quality soilsWASRe: Holy Organic

[Guest guest]

>>Which answers the question about lectins ...

>

>Maybe, but maybe not. The question is whether higher protein necessarily

>translates to higher lectins, specifically.

The thing is, the protein in grains IS lectin. Lectins are just a type

of protein that tends to bind to a saccharide, and the type

of protein that grains produce is lectin. The proteins in wheat

are glutenin and gliadin, both of which are lectins.

Not that all lectins are bad ... there are lectins in every food we eat, I

think.

Some of them just aren't very digestible and seem to cause

problems, and specifically may be involved in arthritis. But the higher

protein in wheat is mainly the result of purposeful breeding ...

high protein wheat sells for more money. From what Chi said, it may

be that the protein in corn is LESS now, than the native American corn,

because it's being bred for sugar content.

-- Heidi Jean

http://www.dadamo.com/knowbase/lectin/lect5.htm

Heat-sensitive lectins

Although many lectins are destroyed by normal cooking (which is why grains and

beans are edible), many are not. Relative resistance to heat was part of the

classic description of wheat germ agglutinin (WGA) made by Aub and colleagues in

1963 (21), and enabled them to distinguish it from the wheat germ lipase from

which they got it. WGA in fact is one of the more heat-sensitive wheat lectins,

being destroyed after 15 minutes at 75 degress C whereas the lectins recently

reported by Concon et al (22) in wheat glutenin and gliadin resist autoclaving

at IMC for 30 minutes, and Freed has observed agglutinins in extracts of fresh

baked bread (unpublished observations). Purists might object that not all that

agglutinates is a lectin because certain plant and other lipids can cause a

clumping phenomenon, indistinguishable from true haernagglutination, by partly

dissolving portions of the phospholipid bilayer of the red cell membrane (23)

However, although Concon et al (22) did not ascertain a sugar specificity for

their autoclave-resistant agglutinins, they had previously removed lipids from

the flour by extraction in butanol.

Heat-resistant lectins

Three groups of workers (24, 25, 26) have made exhaustive searches of food

plants for lectins, identifying over 100 at the last count. Of these, Gibbons

and Dankers, (24) noted that seven of them were autoclave-resistant (wheat bran,

carrot, apple, canned maize, wheat flour, pumpkin seeds and banana). The banana

agglutinin was actually enhanced by heating, and was inhibitable by

N-acetylglucosamine (GNAc) and N-acetylgalactosamine (GaINAc). Nachbar and

Oppenheim (16) also noted haemagglutinins in dry roasted peanuts, as well as in

Com Flakes, Rice Krispies and Kellogg's Special K (which are all heated during

manufacture). Avocado (Persea americana) lectin also resists the autoclave (27).

Phytohaemagglutinin (PHA) in kidney beans (haricot or navy beans) resists mild

cooking in the whole beans, surviving up to 4 hours at 70'C with no loss of

activity and retaining some activity even at 90 C after 3 hours. Beans that had

been presoaked overnight before cooking lost all lectin activity after 10

minutes at 100'C, but if they were boiled without this pre-soaking some activity

remained after 45 minutes. Young rats reared on a diet that contained

part-cooked beans (80'C, 3 hours) went into negative nitrogen balance and lost

weight instead of growing. 'Slow cookers', which can cook beans to perfect

culinary standards, operate at 60-85'C, which is well within the danger range

for PHA. There is however no detectable lectin in textured soya protein (Freed,

unpublished observations) or in commercial soya-based infant formula feeds,

because of the very high temperatures used in the processing.

Several of the above workers have noted year-to-year and batch-to-batch

variation in lectin content of various foods, so the occasional lectin accident

is likely to occur even with foods normally considered to be safe.

[Guest guest]

> RE: " High quality soils " WASRe: Holy Organic

>

>

>

>>>Which answers the question about lectins ...

>>

>>Maybe, but maybe not. The question is whether higher protein necessarily

>>translates to higher lectins, specifically.

>

>

>The thing is, the protein in grains IS lectin. Lectins are just a type

>of protein that tends to bind to a saccharide, and the type

>of protein that grains produce is lectin. The proteins in wheat

>are glutenin and gliadin, both of which are lectins.

Is glutenin as problematic as gliadin?

>

>Not that all lectins are bad ... there are lectins in every food

>we eat, I think.

>Some of them just aren't very digestible and seem to cause

>problems, and specifically may be involved in arthritis. But the higher

>protein in wheat is mainly the result of purposeful breeding ...

>high protein wheat sells for more money.

I read something recently - Albrecht, I think, where they tested the wheat

protein content from high fertility and lower fertility soil and the higher

fertility soil produced higher wheat protein. I *think* these were heirloom

breeds, but am not sure. I'd guess the newer hybrids are specifically bred

for higher protein so you can't compare heirloom on high fertility soil to

hybrid on lower fertility soil.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

>http://www.dadamo.com/knowbase/lectin/lect5.htm

>

>

>Heat-sensitive lectins

>

>Although many lectins are destroyed by normal cooking (which is

>why grains and beans are edible), many are not. Relative

>resistance to heat was part of the classic description of wheat

>germ agglutinin (WGA) made by Aub and colleagues in 1963 (21), and

>enabled them to distinguish it from the wheat germ lipase from

>which they got it. WGA in fact is one of the more heat-sensitive

>wheat lectins, being destroyed after 15 minutes at 75 degress C

>whereas the lectins recently reported by Concon et al (22) in

>wheat glutenin and gliadin resist autoclaving at IMC for 30

>minutes, and Freed has observed agglutinins in extracts of fresh

>baked bread (unpublished observations). Purists might object that

>not all that agglutinates is a lectin because certain plant and

>other lipids can cause a clumping phenomenon, indistinguishable

>from true haernagglutination, by partly dissolving portions of the

>phospholipid bilayer of the red cell membrane (23) However,

>although Concon et al (22) did not ascertain a sugar specificity

>for their autoclave-resistant agglutinins, they had previously

>removed lipids from the flour by extraction in butanol.

>

>Heat-resistant lectins

>

>Three groups of workers (24, 25, 26) have made exhaustive searches

>of food plants for lectins, identifying over 100 at the last

>count. Of these, Gibbons and Dankers, (24) noted that seven of

>them were autoclave-resistant (wheat bran, carrot, apple, canned

>maize, wheat flour, pumpkin seeds and banana). The banana

>agglutinin was actually enhanced by heating, and was inhibitable

>by N-acetylglucosamine (GNAc) and N-acetylgalactosamine (GaINAc).

>Nachbar and Oppenheim (16) also noted haemagglutinins in dry

>roasted peanuts, as well as in Com Flakes, Rice Krispies and

>Kellogg's Special K (which are all heated during manufacture).

>Avocado (Persea americana) lectin also resists the autoclave (27).

>

>Phytohaemagglutinin (PHA) in kidney beans (haricot or navy beans)

>resists mild cooking in the whole beans, surviving up to 4 hours

>at 70'C with no loss of activity and retaining some activity even

>at 90 C after 3 hours. Beans that had been presoaked overnight

>before cooking lost all lectin activity after 10 minutes at 100'C,

>but if they were boiled without this pre-soaking some activity

>remained after 45 minutes. Young rats reared on a diet that

>contained part-cooked beans (80'C, 3 hours) went into negative

>nitrogen balance and lost weight instead of growing. 'Slow

>cookers', which can cook beans to perfect culinary standards,

>operate at 60-85'C, which is well within the danger range for PHA.

>There is however no detectable lectin in textured soya protein

>(Freed, unpublished observations) or in commercial soya-based

>infant formula feeds, because of the very high temperatures used

>in the processing.

>

>Several of the above workers have noted year-to-year and

>batch-to-batch variation in lectin content of various foods, so

>the occasional lectin accident is likely to occur even with foods

>normally considered to be safe.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>And the wheat is bought at approx. 14-15% moisture while bread is

>sold with around 38% moisture. So added water makes money. And Coors

>sells basically 96.8% water in their 3.2% beer. Money is the

>factor affecting quality, in my opinion. Didn't mean to open up

>another debatable topic, again it's just my opinion. So until the

>toxic chemical users have to pay for cleanup, chemical farming and

>processing will continue at it's current pace. Dennis Kemnitz

And what gets even worse is that Coca Cola, which is virtually

all chemicals (esp. the diet stuff) and has NO farm products,

is the most profitable of all! In our current society, most of the

profit is made by the middlemen and large corporations, which

is why I try to deal with farmers directly when I can.

I'm surprised you don't get more money for more protein tho.

When I was working at a flour plant, the " high protein " flour

was the priciest.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>The thing is, the protein in grains IS lectin. Lectins are just a type

>>of protein that tends to bind to a saccharide, and the type

>>of protein that grains produce is lectin. The proteins in wheat

>>are glutenin and gliadin, both of which are lectins.

>

>Is glutenin as problematic as gliadin?

I don't know. In " Dangerous Grains " the authors point out

that glutenin is found in rice also, and that 15% of the Japanese

react to it, but I haven't seen any evidence that they have SUCH

health problems from that reaction (the Japanese eat a LOT of rice,

and they generally don't show the health problems we have in the US).

It could be that a lot of the celiacs who don't heal on a gliadin free

diet are reacting to the glutenin in rice though. In DG they mention

that " rice has problems of it's own, as we'll see later " but they

never do expand on that, so I've been curious!

>I read something recently - Albrecht, I think, where they tested the wheat

>protein content from high fertility and lower fertility soil and the higher

>fertility soil produced higher wheat protein. I *think* these were heirloom

>breeds, but am not sure. I'd guess the newer hybrids are specifically bred

>for higher protein so you can't compare heirloom on high fertility soil to

>hybrid on lower fertility soil.

Seems to be a nitrogen issue, so better soil SHOULD increase wheat

protein. Not that I consider that a good thing myself ... see below.

I liked the article about grain crops being " disaster crops " ... a vinyard is

much easier on the soil and the environment, and if you do it right,

you can have chickens and goats etc. grazing between the vines.

Ditto for orchards. The best soils were found in the midwest when

they plowed up the bluegrass, which was just sitting there making topsoil

as it was grazed by buffalo.

-- Heidi Jean

http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/pubs/mt9806.pdf

and below:

http://www.ag.uidaho.edu/swidaho/Nutrient%20Management/increasing_wheat_protein.\

htm

IMPORTANCE OF N

All protein consists of combinations of amino acid building blocks. Nitrogen (N)

is critical for amino acid synthesis as it is part of the basic structure of all

amino acids. Without adequate N, amino acids aren't synthesized and available

for protein synthesis.

Available N is arguably the most important factor for marketing high protein HRS

in southern Idaho irrigated production. Variety selection, water management,

weed and insect control, and other crop management practices all impact protein

in harvested wheat. But failure to understand the importance of N and its proper

management for enhancing protein is typically the single most common reason for

low protein discounts and grower disappointment in marketing HRS wheat. While

the focus of this presentation will be late season applied N, effective N

management throughout the season plays a critical role in producing high protein

high quality HRS wheat.

[Guest guest]

> " High quality soils " WASRe: Holy Organic

>

>

BTW soil can become low fertile soil simply due to

>compaction and this can be caused by anaerobic conditions. Fertile

>soil is aerobic. Anaerobes lower ph too much for healthy roots(kill

>them), make the N turn into a volatile form and send it back into the

>air where the plant roots cannot utilize it and so on.

Dennis,

Here's an interesting tidbit from Andersen - high fertility soil doesn't

compact like lower fertility soil. It re-expands like a sponge does when you

step on it. So compaction is not an issue like it is with lower quality

soil.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

> RE: " High quality soils " WASRe: Holy Organic

>

>

>

>-- Heidi Jean

>

>http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/pubs/mt9806.pdf

This document is a good illustration of Chi's point that crops are grown for

maximum yield not nutritional quality. Not that this is mystery :-(

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>

> >Maybe blackberry is one of those pioneer plants that thrive in

poor

> >soil, but do improve the condition of the soil over time. I'm

told

> >that mesquite is also a pioneer plant.

> >

> >Darrell

>

> Hmmm ... how about fireweed? THAT stuff will grow as soon as it has

> no competition ... anywhere ... I've heard it can be used instead

of flax

> to make linen.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

XXXXXXXXx Lots of weeds fit into that category Heidi.Mexican sandburs

will laythere just existing for weeks and all of a sudden a little

rain and boom they are covering all the ground and full of seeds.

Fireweed will sit there as I sort of stroll by it a few weeks or

maybe months and boom it's 4 foot in diameter and 6 feet tall. Those

are tumbleweeds in KS. Supposedly they (many weeds)thrive on hi

nitrogen soils(bacterial dominated) which are needing one or several

minerals.OK see my disclaimer and hey, you heard it here. Dennis

[Guest guest]

>Heidi fireweed grows here too and becomes tumbling tumbleweeds

>sometime during the fall windy season.

Your fireweed must be something different ... ours is a tall spindly thing with

purple flowers (really pretty) and it wouldn't tumble.

> Our chickens are necessary

>here to keep grasshoppers under control too. We're currently trying

>to ready an old silage chopper to chop weeds(green and brown) and

>brown crop residue to make a large compost pile. I obviously don't

>have the weeds in control yet thru nutrient cycling and a healthy

>soil food web.

My experience with our weeds is that they like the same kinds of soil as

the " good " plants do. Most of our weeds are edible though, so one solution

would be to just eat them. It seems each spot on earth has plants it " wants "

to grow, so I try to stick to the plants that want to grow here.

Our issues here are very different though ... we get too MUCH water,

usually, so roots don't go very deep (or they would be immersed in

the water table, which kills the plant). Having too much water, just

about any seed will sprout if there is a bare spot, plus the soil

washes away. So the soil needs to be mulched, or have one species take

over the whole area.

>I hope to compost prior to the weeds maturation. The

>healthy soil food web allows the plants to thrive on less water due

>to much deeper roots,etc.We are having some success with blackberries

>and barley and yes, wheat. But we did take about 20 acres out of

>wheat production relative the previous owner. And I only grow around

>40 bushels per acre instead of the NPK fertilized stuff which yields

>around 70 bushels per acre. I would bet the successful permaculture

>systems have a healthy soil food web.

I think the permaculture success has a lot to do with the way plants stake

out their " own " territory if not disturbed. For instance, old cedars shade out

everyone else, and mint will form a dense cluster of roots such that nothing

else can grow (some plants also emit volatile compounds that act as herbicides).

Once the plants are established, they require little maintenance.

I don't know about modern wheat, but bluegrass and the other grasses

that used to inhabit " the grasslands " had really dense mats of roots and

composting old grass (the mats were up to 6 feet thick!) that held water

and nutrients. They probably didn't produce so much grain. I'd bet there

is a way to grow grain where you don't have to PLANT it every year, just

mow it, and let the roots keep the soil steady.

That would be my ideal ... you'd still need to add nutrients, because when

you take away the seed heads you are taking away minerals etc. from

the ecosystem.

>And our fresh warm (cow temp)

>whole Brown swiss milk tested 10 on the refractometer today. Cow's

>been fresh for 2 mos. Dennis Kemnitz

Nice!

-- Heidi Jean