RE: HEG vs EEG FEEDBACK

[Guest guest]

Nick,We sell the pIR and nIR packages with a design that already handles all this and allows you to provide DVD or Video feedback. It automatically sets the threshold--and updates it as needed during the session. Bottom line is that I can't answer your question.

Bruce McMillan, who has provided a number of good HEG designs at pocket-neurobics.com, and Van Deusen, whose auto-thresholding design we include with our package, would be the ones who could help you with this. Both of them are also using EEG amps like the Pendant and Pocket to work with EMG, ECG and HRV in BioExplorer.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a " voltage " (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency.

[it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.]

I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback?

When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not.

Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real.

I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete.

Well after raising the question I now realize that the IR signal from the scalp is picked up by the IR sensor , which must be a photocell -- something which converts light energy into a voltage, amplified (?), and THEN fed into BioExplorer. Then BioExplorer works its magic. Bioexplorer is a fantastic piece of software but obviously it cannot work with LIGHT input signals -- its input signal has to be a voltage.

Note that the HEG designs have no band filters because the whole issue of theta, alpha, beta bands etc is irrelevant. The HEG input signal is probably fairly wide band IR (I guess) and is then trained just like in EEG.

What I'm curious about is what drives the feedback? There has to be some "volitional" quality in the client. Listening to the Midi or Audio or watching a DVD and "making things happen" in the cranium so that the IR signal (temperature?) increases must involve the brain. What other "volitional" object or organ (or creature) exists in the cranium? Does this mean that HEG is only another form of EEG?

I remember Carmen writing to me that he thought that the "heat" sensed by the IR sensor is the result of the biochemical/electrochemical activity in the brain -- synapses etc. (I get the impression that he doesn't believe in capillary blood flow as the mechanism -- but he can speak for himself on this). The temperature increases observe arise from the Heats of Reaction of brain chemistry. But the EEG signals are also products of these same reactions. Training a signal "up" in EEG is ultimately training some electrochemical reaction to move forward--we observe it as increased amplitudes. These are very likely the same chemical reactions that release heat and that are amenable to (or trainable by) HEG.

nick mammano

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a "voltage" (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency.

[it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.]

I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback?

When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not.

Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real.

I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts.

[Guest guest]

Hi Nick,

What you are training is not absolute values. It is a biosignal in ralation to a threshold. As such this apparently great difference in scale is removed from consideration. In other words, it doesn't matter how far above ZERO you are, more important is how far above your threshold you can go. The threshold is set relative to your abilities. In any amplitude training (the EEG and HEG examples you gave both appear to be AMP training where) the GOAL IS TO RAISE YOUR SIGNAL ABOVE THE BAR.

The other factor that is in place which nullifies this question is that SCALE can be adjustable. The same way that you can make 1000 look like 1,000,000 by merely multiplicando by 1000 (adding three zeros).

In Bioexplorer, we use the Expression Evaluator for this- in the HEG design we take the raw date from the Pendant (called In1) and :

In1*1280000+128

In what it serves, I hope that helps.

All the best,

To: braintrainer From: pvdtlc@...Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:34:29 -0200Subject: Re: HEG vs EEG FEEDBACK

Nick,We sell the pIR and nIR packages with a design that already handles all this and allows you to provide DVD or Video feedback. It automatically sets the threshold--and updates it as needed during the session. Bottom line is that I can't answer your question.Bruce McMillan, who has provided a number of good HEG designs at pocket-neurobics.com, and Van Deusen, whose auto-thresholding design we include with our package, would be the ones who could help you with this. Both of them are also using EEG amps like the Pendant and Pocket to work with EMG, ECG and HRV in BioExplorer.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 3:59 PM, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano> wrote:

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a "voltage" (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency.

[it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.]

I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback?

When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not.

Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real.

I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts.

Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Thanks for your help. It wasn't my intention to get into these technical issues. I think I've worked them out to my satisfaction.

As long as I get credible feedback with HEG (and I seem to with the Threshold Epoch set at 1 second instead of 30 sec) I'm OK.

But you might clue me in on a couple of other issues.

1. Is there any reason why the HEG designs only train "UP"?

2. What is the rationale for HEG where H stands for the prefix "hemo" and refers to "blood"? Is the claim that it increases capillary blood flow accepted by all?

3. Since I'm doing some HEG as a home trainer, is there a discussion group similar to braintrainers. com that I could join?

Nick Mammano

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a "voltage" (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency. [it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially

Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.] I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback? When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer

bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not. Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real. I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts.

Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

a very practical answer to the original question is:

Make the signal RISE.

I can't make comment so much on theories. And have not YET seen a body of evidence grow around these questions or to support these theories. AND IT'S BEEN 10 YEARS IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE!

What I must content myself with is FUNCTIONAL gains in my focus and my client's. Also, of course, the "common sense" of the muscle training analogy, combined with what we know about the importance of the prefrontal lobe to support pre-frontal metabolic enhancement training as HEG proposes.

Sorry for my portuguese/english errors in the previous email.

To: braintrainer From: nickmammano@...Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:50:26 -0800Subject: Re: HEG vs EEG FEEDBACK

Thanks Pete.

Well after raising the question I now realize that the IR signal from the scalp is picked up by the IR sensor , which must be a photocell -- something which converts light energy into a voltage, amplified (?), and THEN fed into BioExplorer. Then BioExplorer works its magic. Bioexplorer is a fantastic piece of software but obviously it cannot work with LIGHT input signals -- its input signal has to be a voltage.

Note that the HEG designs have no band filters because the whole issue of theta, alpha, beta bands etc is irrelevant. The HEG input signal is probably fairly wide band IR (I guess) and is then trained just like in EEG.

What I'm curious about is what drives the feedback? There has to be some "volitional" quality in the client. Listening to the Midi or Audio or watching a DVD and "making things happen" in the cranium so that the IR signal (temperature?) increases must involve the brain. What other "volitional" object or organ (or creature) exists in the cranium? Does this mean that HEG is only another form of EEG?

I remember Carmen writing to me that he thought that the "heat" sensed by the IR sensor is the result of the biochemical/electrochemical activity in the brain -- synapses etc. (I get the impression that he doesn't believe in capillary blood flow as the mechanism -- but he can speak for himself on this). The temperature increases observe arise from the Heats of Reaction of brain chemistry. But the EEG signals are also products of these same reactions. Training a signal "up" in EEG is ultimately training some electrochemical reaction to move forward--we observe it as increased amplitudes. These are very likely the same chemical reactions that release heat and that are amenable to (or trainable by) HEG.

nick mammano

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a "voltage" (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency.

[it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.]

I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback?

When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not.

Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real.

I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts. Add maps and directions to your party Show them the way!

[Guest guest]

Hey Nick,

1- Where there is less blood flow, there is less nutrient to feed the region. If you want that, train down.

2- H is HEMO is a convention that Hershel Toomim coined. He uses a PULSE OXYMETER. Look it up. It's sound science. And is a MUCH MUCH MUCH diffused technology. Hershel's big idea was to apply it to the cranial region to see BRAIN capillary blood/oxygen perfusion. As for ALL- I am only one. It is from my study and my conclusion that I speak.

3- http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/HEGtherapy/

Now- a shameless plug- Do you have my HEG design suite? Have a look:

I had a cold that day, during the narration, but the concept and the design are explained in detail.

BEST,

To: braintrainer From: nickmammano@...Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:35:51 -0800Subject: RE: HEG vs EEG FEEDBACK

Hi :

Thanks for your help. It wasn't my intention to get into these technical issues. I think I've worked them out to my satisfaction.

As long as I get credible feedback with HEG (and I seem to with the Threshold Epoch set at 1 second instead of 30 sec) I'm OK.

But you might clue me in on a couple of other issues.

1. Is there any reason why the HEG designs only train "UP"?

2. What is the rationale for HEG where H stands for the prefix "hemo" and refers to "blood"? Is the claim that it increases capillary blood flow accepted by all?

3. Since I'm doing some HEG as a home trainer, is there a discussion group similar to braintrainers. com that I could join?

Nick Mammano

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a "voltage" (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency. [it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.] I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback? When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not. Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real. I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts.

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[Guest guest]

Hey Nick,

1- Where there is less blood flow, there is less nutrient to feed the region. If you want that, train down.

2- H is HEMO is a convention that Hershel Toomim coined. He uses a PULSE OXYMETER. Look it up. It's sound science. And is a MUCH MUCH MUCH diffused technology. Hershel's big idea was to apply it to the cranial region to see BRAIN capillary blood/oxygen perfusion. As for ALL- I am only one. It is from my study and my conclusion that I speak.

3- http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/HEGtherapy/

Now- a shameless plug- Do you have my HEG design suite? Have a look:

I had a cold that day, during the narration, but the concept and the design are explained in detail.

BEST,

To: braintrainer From: nickmammano@...Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:35:51 -0800Subject: RE: HEG vs EEG FEEDBACK

Hi :

Thanks for your help. It wasn't my intention to get into these technical issues. I think I've worked them out to my satisfaction.

As long as I get credible feedback with HEG (and I seem to with the Threshold Epoch set at 1 second instead of 30 sec) I'm OK.

But you might clue me in on a couple of other issues.

1. Is there any reason why the HEG designs only train "UP"?

2. What is the rationale for HEG where H stands for the prefix "hemo" and refers to "blood"? Is the claim that it increases capillary blood flow accepted by all?

3. Since I'm doing some HEG as a home trainer, is there a discussion group similar to braintrainers. com that I could join?

Nick Mammano

I have a question or two about how the threshold settings for EEG measurements differ from the threshold settings for PIR-HEG measurements. AS I understand it the EEG signal is a "voltage" (or microvoltage) --a mixture of AC "waves" with different shapes, phases, and with frequencies between 2-40Hz. But the PIRHEG signal is an INFRARED SIGNAL --not a voltage signal-- with IR frequencies gigantically larger than EEG signals-- on the order of 100,000 GIGA Hz! This is about a million million times higher frequency than the EEG frequency. [it seems that this gigantic frequency difference should result in real differences in the statistics of the calculations relating to Epoch, Duration and especially Average Period, the timing of the feedback etc but I'm not sure.] I don't want to get involved in any detailed technical discussions about statistics, Fourier transforms etc, here but I do need to know how PIRHEG differs "operationally" from EEG. In other words what are the recommended values of Epoch, Average Period, Duration etc in the Threshold Object that give meaningful feedback? When I run a PIRHEG with an Audio Player, the Threshold Object "thermometer" is extremely "sluggish" – hardly moves at all—when I use typical property values for Avg. Period, epoch etc. I'm also not able to fine tune the threshold when in Manual mode – it only registers 0 or 100% regardless of the value of Avg. Period (which I've used to adjust thermometer bobbing when I do EEG). But when I change the Epoch value in the HEGPIR design from 30sec to 1 sec, the thermometer behaves fairly familiarly – responding positive or negative (color change) as the Threshold % value is achieved or not. Is this OK? Am I getting true feedback with HEG? I do notice the "temperature rising" so things seem OK with Epoch set at 1 sec. But I need to be assured that it's real. I appreciate any help on this – from all, including HEG experts.

Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out! check out the rest of the Windows Live™.

More than mail–Windows Live™ goes way beyond your inbox.

More than messages