Theological debate, was Vitamin D toxicity?

[Guest guest]

>I really don't want to get into a theological debate here but God

>didn't create diseases, the fall of man did. God made a perfect

>world that man has messed up royally. (Go back and read the 1st

>chapter of Genesis where everything that God made was declared as

>GOOD!) Our getting back to God-made foods and away from man-made

>foods is IMHO a very large part of getting/remaining healthy.

>

>Rhonda

Oh, well, it seems there is a real overlap between food and theology ...

sometimes it gets really interesting. Currently there is an issue about

a girl who can't take communion because the Catholic church will

not allow a gluten-free wafer (the wafer by definition must contain

some amount of wheat, I guess). Now the article says celiac is a " rare "

disorder, which it is most definitely not, so sooner or later the

church will have to deal with it. Sometimes even foods that are not

man-made have problems!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110 & slug=Communi\

on%20Denied

Church says girl's communion not valid

By JOHN CURRAN

ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

BRIELLE, N.J. -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder

and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because

the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman Catholic doctrine.

Now, Haley Waldman's mother is pushing the Diocese of Trenton and the Vatican to

make an exception, saying the girl's condition should not exclude her from the

sacrament, which commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus Christ before his

crucifixion. The mother believes a rice Communion wafer would suffice.

" It's just not a viable option. How does it corrupt the tradition of the Last

Supper? It's just rice versus wheat, " said Pelly-Waldman.

Church doctrine holds that Communion wafers, like the bread served at the Last

Supper, must have at least some unleavened wheat. Church leaders are reluctant

to change anything about the sacrament.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/1/04 5:49:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

slethnobotanist@... writes:

> >I really don't want to get into a theological debate here but God

> >didn't create diseases, the fall of man did. God made a perfect

> >world that man has messed up royally

____

Here's a thought:

God put everything good for man in the Garden of Eden, but, despite the angel

with the flaming sword keeping man out, some pollen and seeds and whatnot do

manage to blow out in the breeze and land somewheres in an obscure rainforest.

:-)

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:08:23 -0700

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

>

> >I really don't want to get into a theological debate here but God

> >didn't create diseases, the fall of man did. God made a perfect

> >world that man has messed up royally. (Go back and read the 1st

> >chapter of Genesis where everything that God made was declared as

> >GOOD!) Our getting back to God-made foods and away from man-made

> >foods is IMHO a very large part of getting/remaining healthy.

> >

> >Rhonda

>

> Oh, well, it seems there is a real overlap between food and theology ...

> sometimes it gets really interesting.

Yes, are the Old Testament food laws applicable today in a *physical* sense,

a la The Makers Diet? In other words was something being said that has

ongoing health value, even though it no longer has any ritual value for

practicing Christians? Although it obviously still has ritual value for certain

aspects of Judaism.

When Weston Price speaks of moral degradation what does he mean? Does he

mean that proper nutrition would make for no adultery, no murder, no

infanticide,

no war, no flaming on email lists (LOL!) etc. or at least make these

things very rare? So then salvation comes by what we put into our mouths?

If so how does the square with the statement of Christ who said that it is

what comes out of a man that defiles him, not what he eats, in a direct

response to Jews who were attempting to put the legalism of the OT laws

on NT Christians?

Am I " sinning " when I eat a diet of junk food, knowing that it is not

good for my health?

Yes food and theology do overlap and can be quite interesting.

Currently there is an issue about

> a girl who can't take communion because the Catholic church will

> not allow a gluten-free wafer (the wafer by definition must contain

> some amount of wheat, I guess). Now the article says celiac is a " rare "

> disorder, which it is most definitely not, so sooner or later the

> church will have to deal with it. Sometimes even foods that are not

> man-made have problems!

>

>

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110 & slug=Communi\

on%20Denied

>

> Church says girl's communion not valid

>

> By JOHN CURRAN

> ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

>

> BRIELLE, N.J. -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive

>disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared

>invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman Catholic

>doctrine.

I know little of the theology of actual breadmaking, either in my own

tradition (Eastern Orthodox) or my former (Roman Catholic). But I have

to wonder about such blanket statements from the RC Church, assuming the

reporter has it right.

Would not the wheat of Christ day be quite different from ours,

certainly less glutenous. And I do know that " wheat " can refer to a

variety of grains (at least I thought I knew) during biblical times.

Interesting to see where this goes. I did read that some RC churches do

serve gluten free wafers.

Kick the Habit: Don't Vote!

http://tinyurl.com/439vl

Eat fat, get thin... lift big, get small.

" They told just the same,

That just because a tyrant has the might

By force of arms to murder men downright

And burn down house and home and leave all flat

They call the man a captain, just for that.

But since an outlaw with his little band

Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

He only earns the title of a thief. "

--Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

[Guest guest]

>I know little of the theology of actual breadmaking, either in my own

>tradition (Eastern Orthodox) or my former (Roman Catholic). But I have

>to wonder about such blanket statements from the RC Church, assuming the

>reporter has it right.

>

>Would not the wheat of Christ day be quite different from ours,

>certainly less glutenous. And I do know that " wheat " can refer to a

>variety of grains (at least I thought I knew) during biblical times.

I suspect the last (that " wheat " can refer to a variety of grains)

might be the answer to the theological question of wheat. It's

going to be a big issue for a lot of religious people ... wheat has

this kind of iconic status, and if it is in fact accepted that 40%

of the public has problems with it, potentially fatal problems, then

that creates a kind of theological dissonence! It's like in Grecian

times, olives were considered a gift from Athena ... if it turned out

that olives were a health problem, that would seem like a kind of

cosmic joke.

Personally I don't think wheat is really central to either the old

or new testament .. it is addicting, particularly in it's modern

form, and it is central to our society (tho less so now than

in the past). But reconciling religion and science really isn't

easy, the two are soooo different in philosophy.

>Interesting to see where this goes. I did read that some RC churches do

>serve gluten free wafers.

Some churches really don't have a problem with it. Some RC couples

use birth control too. Interestingly I knew a RC woman who would

not use artificial insemination (not permitted) but did use invitro

fertilization and embryo implantation (ok).

Back a couple of hundred years ago, there was a big controversy

over surgery ... cutting open the body. Eventually that got figured out.

Just takes time. Somehow gluten vs. nongluten seems easier ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

This discussion brings to mind what Christ said about

yeast/leaven: " Beward the yeast of the Pharisees. " And something

about a little piece of leaven leavens the whole loaf.

In both those cases, the implication is that yeast/leaven is

something that causes problems. It would be better if it were left

out.

And there was the incident when Christ and the disciples were walking

through a wheat field on the Sabbath, " harvesting " grain kernels by

hand and eating them as they walked. The Pharisees criticized them

for " working " on the Sabbath.

When I first read the WAPF articles about lactofermented foods, I was

already aware of Doug Kaufmann's advice to avoid foods containing

fungus/yeast. I'm not sure I understand which organisms are good and

bad, even yet. But I get the idea that the lactobacillus

microorganisms help keep the fungi/yeasts (e.g. candida albicans?)

under control. That's probably why foods like traditional sauerkraut

are healthful.

I've seen special diets that advise against eating things like

vinegar, or any foods that have sat long enough to grow much of a

culture of microorganisms. I wonder if they are not making a

distinction between yeast/fungi and lactobacillus organisms?

And there's the traditional prayer that Christ is shown as praying

before eating: " Blessed art Thou, Lord God, Who gives seed to the

sower and bread to the eater. " There's also " Give us this day our

daily bread " in the Lord's prayer. It makes me wonder if He isn't

singling out grain foods as particularly blessed, even though as WAPF-

ers, we know the extraordinary value of foods from animal sources.

Maybe Christ is just using seed/sowers in the prayer because it is

something that anyone can look at, touch and handle, and eat. Even

poor people were allowed to glean in the fields after the harvesters

had gone.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

<<<<This discussion brings to mind what Christ said about

yeast/leaven: " Beward the yeast of the Pharisees. " And something

about a little piece of leaven leavens the whole loaf.>>>>

<<<<In both those cases, the implication is that yeast/leaven is

something that causes problems. It would be better if it were left

out.>>>>

______

He doesn't say " beware of yeast; " he says, " beware of the yeast of the

Pharisees. " Good leaven leavens the whole loaf, and bad leaven leavens the

whole

loaf.

It's my understanding that the Greek " arton " used in the Lord's Prayer refers

specifically to leavened bread. If Christ is calling leavened bread

" epiousion " (see below), then he definitely isn't taking a stand against leaven

per se.

_____

There's also " Give us this day our

daily bread " in the Lord's prayer.

_____

I don't understand how this translation ever made its way into English, but

the word he uses in place of " daily " is " epiousion. " " Ousion " means " essence, "

so " epiousion " means " above essence " or " beyond essence " or " super-essential "

or something like that.

The use of the word " daily " conjures up the notion of the food we need for

the day, which is beyond absurd, as Christ says the prayer *right after*

commanding not to pray for or care for what you need to eat or wear!

Grains have spiritual anthropological significance, because they must be

" dead " and buried in the earth before they can bear fruit, like us.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Maybe Christ is just using seed/sowers in the prayer because it is

>something that anyone can look at, touch and handle, and eat. Even

>poor people were allowed to glean in the fields after the harvesters

>had gone.

>

>

In that time and place, a poor person likely got most of

their nourishment from bread ... richer folk got meat

more, or herders did. It truly WAS " the staff of life " in

that context. Also by that time, the folks that had the

genes that make one wheat-sensitive had died out

in that population mostly. Or, one could argue God

created the Middle Easterners without that gene. In

any case, the folks I am descended

from were still in the forests of Germany, being

barbarians and eating venison, and they had a lot of that

gene.

So then one can debate the theology of taking words

spoken to Middle Eastern Jewish people and applying

them to Northern Europeans!

As for fungus/yeast/mold ... there IS a tendency today to lump

all those together. Some molds are very, very harmful ...

some are not. There really isn't any scientific evidence

I've seen to assume they are all bad, and they are used

in some fermenting processes that have been shown

to be very healthy (miso, for instance). Mushrooms are

fungi too, and some of them have very good curative powers.

In any case, vinegar is the product of a bacteria, not a mold.

The bit about molds making candida infections worse ...

they might if you were allergic to that mold, but generally

molds fight each other. Lactofermented foods do fight

candida also, but I think the fact they help bring blood sugar

under control is probably more important. People with lots

of fungal problems tend to have high blood sugar.

But I don't think you can take the words about " leavening

the whole loaf " as being about " yeast isn't great " ... leavening

was generally regarded as a good process, and the fact that

the Israelis had to do without risen bread when they fled

Egypt became the whole basis for the Feast of Unleavened

Bread, being such a big deal to do without the rising?

Heidi Jean