Re: Re: Are all grains really bad for you?

August 27, 2004

Price found that the groups who ate grains had higher numbers of cavities

compared to the groups who didn't. But still very few overall compared to

modern people. They're not necessary for health and are relatively new to

the human diet.

Elaine

> Sorry for the double post, but I just did a search and found the post

> I was referring to in my last post. Katja wrote:

>

>> there's nothing good for you about grains anyway - they're just empty

> calories even if you go to the trouble of soaking and sprouting them.

be ?subject=Unsubscribe>

>

August 27, 2004

At 10:24 AM 8/27/2004, you wrote:

> >there's nothing good for you about grains anyway - they're just empty

>calories even if you go to the trouble of soaking and sprouting them.

>

>Is that really true?

>

>Ciao,

>

>Dawn

i suppose i should change my statement to be " the only thing about grain

that's good is it's cheap " . if you're a peasant villager trying to get

through a tough winter, then some oatmeal is probably in order: it's cheap,

it keeps, it's filling, and it's calories. and if you're a peasant

villager, ya know, circa 1200 or so, these are important qualities.

the average american, however, really has no need of cheap calories. grain

makes you fat - and hence the american waistline today (that and the utter

lack of exercise.) the grain you can buy today like as not is grown in

crappy soil, so you can't count on any particular vitamin content, and any

vitamins you were going to get from grains you can get better from animal

sources anyway. if you *lurrrrve* yourself some long-soaked oatmeal on a

winter morning, by all means, go for it, but understand that it's just for

the happy, not for any kind of real health benefit.

the soaking or sprouting only makes grains non-toxic, it doesn't turn them

into something " healthy " ...have a steak (or a good bone broth) and some

kale with butter instead!

-katja

August 27, 2004

i don't have much time today to respond, but i will, if heidi doesn't get

to it first.

all i could think reading this, though, is " you must be new here " ...imagine

it said just the right way by that bartender (or whatever) in all the

movies when somebody walks in off the street with wide eyes

here's the short short though:

1. yep. everything's depleted (except the few high-brix farmers who are

changing that). sucks! all the more reason to be careful what you buy and

to not waste calories with anything that *isn't* nutrient dense. (i'm

pretty sure the ocean is bummin' too these days.)

2. sally was, i believe, noting that these societies ate *whole* grains -

ie, not processed flours, not bleached white minute rice, etc, as opposed

to saying that it was the grain in particular that made them healthy.

3. nope, we don't eat any grains at all. we DO eat lots and lots of

vegetables, nuts, some fruit, and all kinds of animal products: fish,

poultry, beef, beef, beef, pork, dairy and more dairy. all of it grassfed,

pasture raised, and none* of it has ever eaten any grain. (*except the baby

chicks, cause i haven't come up with a system to grow and then grind worms

in such a way that baby chicks will eat them. but as soon as they're old

enough, they go out to pasture and eat only bugs, grass, veggies, and

kefirized table scraps.)

3b. yep, there's definitely some grains better than others. all

non-glutenous grains are better than all glutenous grains, which are not in

any way* fit for human consumption. (*unless you belong to a remote inbred

middle eastern tribe, in which case you may actually have adapted away the

genes for gluten intolerance.) probably some day i'll get a craving for a

good rice pudding...

-katja

At 03:55 PM 8/27/2004, you wrote:

>Hi Katja,

>

> > the grain you can buy today like as not is grown in

> > crappy soil, so you can't count on any particular vitamin content,

>

>Isn't that true for vegetables as well? And what about the lands that

>cows, sheep etc. graze on? They're probably pretty depleted too, no?

> Probably the only place that is not depleted is the ocean or the sea.

>

> >if you *lurrrrve* yourself some long-soaked oatmeal on a

> > winter morning, by all means, go for it, but understand that it's

>just for

> > the happy, not for any kind of real health benefit.

>

>Then why does Fallon, in " Nasty, Brutish and Short? " , write:

> " Weston Price's studies convinced him that the best diet was one that

>combined nutrient-dense WHOLE GRAINS [my emphasis] with animal

>products, particularly fish. The healthiest African tribe he studied

>was the Dinkas, a Sudanese tribe on the western bank of the Nile. They

>were not as tall as the cattle-herding Neurs groups but they were

>physically better proportioned and had greater strength. Their diet

>consisted mainly of fish and CEREAL GRAINS [my emphasis]. This is one

>of the most important lessons of Price's research?that a mixed diet of

>whole foods, one that avoids the extremes of the carnivorous Masai and

>the largely vegetarian Bantu, ensures optimum physical development. "

>

>Do you disagree with her and Price? If you do, what research have you

>seen that argues so strongly against grains? Do you not eat any

>grains at all or are they some types that you think are better than

>others?

>

>I'm not trying to be a pain in the behind. I'm just trying to figure

>out what is the best diet overall. I know that everyone is different

>and not everyone does well eating the same things, but there must be

>some general guidelines. Quite honestly, when I think about it

>sometimes, it seems that there's a problem with everything one would

>want to eat.

>

>To eat grains or not to eat grains... that is the question

>

>Ciao,

>

>Dawn

>

August 27, 2004

At 04:49 PM 8/27/2004, you wrote:

> > all i could think reading this, though, is " you must be new

>here " ...imagine

> > it said just the right way by that bartender (or whatever) in all the

> > movies when somebody walks in off the street with wide eyes

>

> Well, sort of. I haven't had much time to post since my daughter

>was born last October, but I've been following the NT diet for about

>two years now. Thanks for answering my post even though you didn't

>have much time.

heehee. no problem

> > 3. nope, we don't eat any grains at all. we DO eat lots and lots of

> > vegetables, nuts, some fruit, and all kinds of animal products: fish,

> > poultry, beef, beef, beef, pork, dairy and more dairy. all of it

>grassfed,

> > pasture raised, and none* of it has ever eaten any grain.

>

>I'm having a problem finding raw dairy here in Rome (Italy not Rome,

>Georgia ). I have found good raw cheeses from Italy and France

>(there's a great site for a Parisian shop that ships worldwide - they

>even have raw Brie). Do you think that raw cheeses are as good as raw

>yogurt?

ooh, fun! are you also italian, or a displaced american?

raw cheeses are not necessarily cultured, and the culture is the best thing

about yogurt. that said, i still think raw milk cheeses are glorious!

> >

> > 3b. yep, there's definitely some grains better than others. all

> > non-glutenous grains are better than all glutenous grains, which are

>not in

> > any way* fit for human consumption. (*unless you belong to a remote

>inbred

> > middle eastern tribe, in which case you may actually have adapted

>away the

> > genes for gluten intolerance.) probably some day i'll get a craving

>for a

> > good rice pudding...

>

>So, essentially all humans are gluten intolerant...hmmm that's

>interesting. Maybe I should stop eating grains and see if my sinus

>allergies clear up. That would be a beautiful thing. I could

>definitely give up grain if it meant I didn't have to deal with

>sneezing and itching.

yes yes yes!!! you absolutely should! just ask heidi!

i'll forward my gluten reference sheet to the list - it includes a summary

of (some but not all) related disorders. you'll be shocked! other people

will also add having metal fillings removed...

>Don't feel obliged to answer all my questions if you don't have hte

>time. I'm just curious about how you feed your family because it

>sounds like you really know your stuff. I really want my baby

>daughter to grow up eating healthy things as much as possible so

>she'll never have to deal with allergies, cavities etc. etc. Any

>websites you could recommend with good non-grain recipes and

>information about the " evils " of gluten?

nonono, it's no problem. this is a particular passion of mine. i'm like,

the glutenator in training! ( " the glutenator " is the name someone gave

heidi jean for starting us all down this path )

check out the reference list following, and also i have a great cookie

recipe i'll forward separately too

-katja

>Ciao,

>

>Dawn

>

> >

> > At 03:55 PM 8/27/2004, you wrote:

> > >Hi Katja,

> > >

> > > > the grain you can buy today like as not is grown in

> > > > crappy soil, so you can't count on any particular vitamin content,

> > >

> > >Isn't that true for vegetables as well? And what about the lands that

> > >cows, sheep etc. graze on? They're probably pretty depleted too, no?

> > > Probably the only place that is not depleted is the ocean or the sea.

> > >

> > > >if you *lurrrrve* yourself some long-soaked oatmeal on a

> > > > winter morning, by all means, go for it, but understand that it's

> > >just for

> > > > the happy, not for any kind of real health benefit.

> > >

> > >Then why does Fallon, in " Nasty, Brutish and Short? " , write:

> > > " Weston Price's studies convinced him that the best diet was one that

> > >combined nutrient-dense WHOLE GRAINS [my emphasis] with animal

> > >products, particularly fish. The healthiest African tribe he studied

> > >was the Dinkas, a Sudanese tribe on the western bank of the Nile. They

> > >were not as tall as the cattle-herding Neurs groups but they were

> > >physically better proportioned and had greater strength. Their diet

> > >consisted mainly of fish and CEREAL GRAINS [my emphasis]. This is one

> > >of the most important lessons of Price's research?that a mixed diet of

> > >whole foods, one that avoids the extremes of the carnivorous Masai and

> > >the largely vegetarian Bantu, ensures optimum physical development. "

> > >

> > >Do you disagree with her and Price? If you do, what research have you

> > >seen that argues so strongly against grains? Do you not eat any

> > >grains at all or are they some types that you think are better than

> > >others?

> > >

> > >I'm not trying to be a pain in the behind. I'm just trying to figure

> > >out what is the best diet overall. I know that everyone is different

> > >and not everyone does well eating the same things, but there must be

> > >some general guidelines. Quite honestly, when I think about it

> > >sometimes, it seems that there's a problem with everything one would

> > >want to eat.

> > >

> > >To eat grains or not to eat grains... that is the question

> > >

> > >Ciao,

> > >

> > >Dawn

> > >

August 27, 2004

Interesting observation: We eat very little grains, incl. gluten grains, but

are not grain-free. Anyway, yesterday on a whim i made my kids spaghetti bc

i noticed i had some sitting around. They both acted totally psycho after

that meal (and it's not the carbs -- they eat carbs). I did it again just to

be sure. They think it's yummy but it's not worth it. I was pleasantly

surprised by the yam noodles i had the other day. I'm going to try those

with red sauce and parmesan and see if they still eat it.

Elaine

August 27, 2004

Dawn, check out the new book called Garden of Eating. I think the site you

order it from is gardenofeatingdiet.com. It's full of no-grain recipes, and

no-dairy, and lots of info to back up that sort of diet, incl. lots of

Westin Price stuff. The recipes i've tried have been very good.

Elaine

August 28, 2004

>Do you disagree with her and Price? If you do, what research have you

>seen that argues so strongly against grains? Do you not eat any

>grains at all or are they some types that you think are better than

>others?

Part of the issue here is that the really bad grain problems are

largely genetic, and mostly center around *wheat*. None of

Price's groups ate wheat. His own experimentation was with

whole wheat vs. white wheat, and whole wheat was better.

No surprise there. Sally *does* mention the problems with

gluten intolerance, tho at the time no one knew how big

a problem it truly is.

Historically, the archeologists agree that when folks started

farming, they got less healthy. During Price's time there

are a lot of other factors ... some of the tribes he looked

at ate grains, others didn't. Some people do well with more

carbs, others don't. Tribespeople who have grains might do

better just because they have a good source of calories.

But you are correct ... during Price's time there was a very

PRO grain bias, and the current research seems to be leaning

away from that. But personally I think a lot of this has to

do with the confounding effect of the " gluten " grains. Diets

high in rice seem to be ok, even though rice is lacking in

nutrients.

>I'm not trying to be a pain in the behind. I'm just trying to figure

>out what is the best diet overall. I know that everyone is different

>and not everyone does well eating the same things, but there must be

>some general guidelines. Quite honestly, when I think about it

>sometimes, it seems that there's a problem with everything one would

>want to eat.

>

>To eat grains or not to eat grains... that is the question

Nothing beats experimenting ...

Heidi Jean

August 28, 2004

>So, essentially all humans are gluten intolerant...hmmm that's

>interesting. Maybe I should stop eating grains and see if my sinus

>allergies clear up. That would be a beautiful thing. I could

>definitely give up grain if it meant I didn't have to deal with

>sneezing and itching.

Not all humans are " gluten intolerant " ... gluten intolerance means

the immune system overreacts to gluten. However, gluten isn't

very digestable by anyone, we don't have the right enzymes (except,

as katja noted, some inbred tribes, maybe). And it tends to glom

onto the villi in everyone, which isn't a good thing. If you are

not gluten intolerant, AND you sour the flour correctly, AND you

use whole wheat, you may be able to include wheat in your diet

and be fine, but at that point you have to say " why bother? " which

is about how I feel about eating acorns.

However, like Katja saya, you don't NEED grains, and for modern

humans with modern grain, they are decidedly the most problematic

food we have. More so for some folks than others, and more so

for some grains than others. What I've found is that since I have

a lot of good meat and vegies and fruit and kimchi, none of the

grains are very appealing except for special occasions and desserts,

tho we make fewer and fewer of those as time goes on.

We do make tacos, and popcorn, and brownies etc. but they

are celebration foods, not standards. My DH likes rice on a

regular basis. However, *wheat* is not allowed in the house,

period. (or barley, rye, spelt, etc.). It's a whole different animal,

and it's a nasty animal, in my book.

Heidi (aka the glutenator!)

August 28, 2004

The Garden of Eating seems like a GREAT book to have, kinda like a paleo NT...

however, shipping it to Europe is VERY expensive due to it's size and weight...

it will be available through amazon by the end of Aug. so P & P will be much

cheaper.. I've been in touch with the authors... they suggested I'd wait till

amazon stock it...

There are some good articles and recipes on their web site

http://www.thegardenofeatingdiet.com/

Dedy

From: Elaine <<Dawn, check out the new book called Garden of Eating. I think the

site you order it from is gardenofeatingdiet.com. It's full of no-grain recipes,

and no-dairy, and lots of info to back up that sort of diet, incl. lots of

Westin Price stuff. The recipes i've tried have been very good.

August 28, 2004

>Interesting observation: We eat very little grains, incl. gluten grains, but

>are not grain-free. Anyway, yesterday on a whim i made my kids spaghetti bc

>i noticed i had some sitting around. They both acted totally psycho after

>that meal (and it's not the carbs -- they eat carbs). I did it again just to

>be sure. They think it's yummy but it's not worth it. I was pleasantly

>surprised by the yam noodles i had the other day. I'm going to try those

>with red sauce and parmesan and see if they still eat it.

>Elaine

My kids too. Even the babysitter (who eats wheat) insists they not get it!

Tinkyada pasta tastes like wheat pasta though, and doesn't have

the nasty side effects.

Heidi Jean

August 28, 2004

> Re: Are all grains really " bad " for you?

>

>Hi Katja,

>

>> the grain you can buy today like as not is grown in

>> crappy soil, so you can't count on any particular vitamin content,

>

>Isn't that true for vegetables as well? And what about the lands that

>cows, sheep etc. graze on? They're probably pretty depleted too, no?

> Probably the only place that is not depleted is the ocean or the sea.

Dawn,

You're absolutely correct. Grains are no worse than the soil they're grown

on which goes for ALL food. So grains should not be singled out as bad

because the soil's bad when that goes for all the food we eat.

>

>>if you *lurrrrve* yourself some long-soaked oatmeal on a

>> winter morning, by all means, go for it, but understand that it's

>just for

>> the happy, not for any kind of real health benefit.