Re: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

[Guest guest]

Connie,It has been quite a while since I heard anyone suggest a person with PTSD "relive the trauma".NFB, Hypnosis, ThoughtField therapy and EMDR can all be good ways of dealing with PSD. If this person is having serious problems with PTSD, and if there is no one with expertise in your agency to supervise you, I would suggest a referral to some one or some agency where that expertise can be found.georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with neurofeedback.  But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body ideas with working with PTSD.My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I, and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe place (my office).  There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer place where he can be more of an observer.  I was thinking guided imagery.  Any other thoughts?Thanks,  Connie------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Connie,It has been quite a while since I heard anyone suggest a person with PTSD "relive the trauma".NFB, Hypnosis, ThoughtField therapy and EMDR can all be good ways of dealing with PSD. If this person is having serious problems with PTSD, and if there is no one with expertise in your agency to supervise you, I would suggest a referral to some one or some agency where that expertise can be found.georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with neurofeedback.  But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body ideas with working with PTSD.My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I, and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe place (my office).  There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer place where he can be more of an observer.  I was thinking guided imagery.  Any other thoughts?Thanks,  Connie------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Connie

As an intern with a CBT and exposure oriented supervisor you probably don't have a lot of options. My experience would suggest counselling and talking in relation to your client's current experiences/symptoms and moving to some form of relaxation therapy paced to the client will get you a long way.Exposure therapy after rapport and relaxation skills have developed may be useful or could even prove unnecessary. The therapy needs to be nuanced against the relationship.

Mark

Re: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

Connie,

It has been quite a while since I heard anyone suggest a person with PTSD "relive the trauma".

NFB, Hypnosis, ThoughtField therapy and EMDR can all be good ways of dealing with PSD. If this person is having serious problems with PTSD, and if there is no one with expertise in your agency to supervise you, I would suggest a referral to some one or some agency where that expertise can be found.

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

ideas with working with PTSD.

My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

place (my office).

There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

imagery. Any other thoughts?

Thanks, Connie

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Connie

As an intern with a CBT and exposure oriented supervisor you probably don't have a lot of options. My experience would suggest counselling and talking in relation to your client's current experiences/symptoms and moving to some form of relaxation therapy paced to the client will get you a long way.Exposure therapy after rapport and relaxation skills have developed may be useful or could even prove unnecessary. The therapy needs to be nuanced against the relationship.

Mark

Re: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

Connie,

It has been quite a while since I heard anyone suggest a person with PTSD "relive the trauma".

NFB, Hypnosis, ThoughtField therapy and EMDR can all be good ways of dealing with PSD. If this person is having serious problems with PTSD, and if there is no one with expertise in your agency to supervise you, I would suggest a referral to some one or some agency where that expertise can be found.

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

ideas with working with PTSD.

My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

place (my office).

There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

imagery. Any other thoughts?

Thanks, Connie

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Get them to someone who really knows EMDR... Or maybe you can find someone who

knows EMDR to come in and offer it. It worked wonders on someone I know and

quickly.

He had spent a year messing around with meds and CBT. After seeing its effects

on this

person, I wish I had been told about it for some of my issues before I had

experiemented

with some other things that didn't work out well for me...

>

> I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

> have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

> neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

> ideas with working with PTSD.

>

> My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

> and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

> place (my office).

>

> There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

> place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

> imagery. Any other thoughts?

>

> Thanks, Connie

>

[Guest guest]

Get them to someone who really knows EMDR... Or maybe you can find someone who

knows EMDR to come in and offer it. It worked wonders on someone I know and

quickly.

He had spent a year messing around with meds and CBT. After seeing its effects

on this

person, I wish I had been told about it for some of my issues before I had

experiemented

with some other things that didn't work out well for me...

>

> I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

> have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

> neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

> ideas with working with PTSD.

>

> My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

> and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

> place (my office).

>

> There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

> place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

> imagery. Any other thoughts?

>

> Thanks, Connie

>

[Guest guest]

Get them to someone who really knows EMDR... Or maybe you can find someone who

knows EMDR to come in and offer it. It worked wonders on someone I know and

quickly.

He had spent a year messing around with meds and CBT. After seeing its effects

on this

person, I wish I had been told about it for some of my issues before I had

experiemented

with some other things that didn't work out well for me...

>

> I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

> have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

> neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

> ideas with working with PTSD.

>

> My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

> and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

> place (my office).

>

> There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

> place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

> imagery. Any other thoughts?

>

> Thanks, Connie

>

[Guest guest]

EMDR with a TRAINED clinician. Reliving the trauma can be retraumatizing. I suggest you consult with a few more experience clinicians in your area who work specifically with trauma.

mershona

PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body ideas with working with PTSD.My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I, and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe place (my office). There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided imagery. Any other thoughts?Thanks, Connie

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much for the response! This only validates my

first hunch that I need something else here. Referral may be

tricky since this gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the

nurse quit last week. He does not like change. Referring him to

another agency may not be the right thing. He is currently in

case management.

We do have acupuncture at our facility. I could have

him go daily while I work with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to

either get supervision in thought field work(I have actually been studying this

along with neurofeedback and will look into if I could do this with help)

or a referral that will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

Thanks again. Connie

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of conniewelsh2

Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:10 PM

To: braintrainer

Subject: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

I am currently working for an agency as a

counseling intern and they

have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

ideas with working with PTSD.

My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

place (my office).

There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

imagery. Any other thoughts?

Thanks, Connie

[Guest guest]

Not to complicate things here, as I completely agree that CBT--especially if it is intended to re-activate the traumatic event--is not likely to be helpful with an issue that is programmed into the brain's response patterns at a very basic physiological level. I do want to toss in a caveat, though, about " relaxation " training with people who are autonomically wound up, as most trauma survivors tend to be. One of the things that we discuss in the section on Tone in the Assessment (Level 2) workshop is the tendency of this sort of client to suffer from rebounds. Panic attacks, migraine headaches and other rebound effects tend to burst on the scene not when the client is feeling particularly stressed (that's what the system is set up for), but rather during unusual periods of relaxation following a time of stress. It's not uncommon for the client to feel great relief during the relaxation training (though often it won't last all the way through the session), then have a strong bounce back into the fear or rage that characterizes them most of the time.

You might look into Berceli's work (http://www.traumaprevention.com/index.php?nid=article & article_id=80 to purchase his DVD or booklet--either for $30--and check out the rest of his site as well). Berceli has traveled the world working with individuals and groups experiencing trauma after-effects. His work is based on the research that shows traumatic experiences of helplessness result in the fight/flight energy getting locked up in a freeze response. If this energy can be expressed by the muscles (largely the huge psoas muscle in the center of the body), the trauma is physically expressed and released. The exercises can be done by oneself or in a small group. The DVD has a nice demonstration of the exercises and how the process works during the release.

Pete

Thanks so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need something else here. Referral may be tricky since this gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Not to complicate things here, as I completely agree that CBT--especially if it is intended to re-activate the traumatic event--is not likely to be helpful with an issue that is programmed into the brain's response patterns at a very basic physiological level. I do want to toss in a caveat, though, about " relaxation " training with people who are autonomically wound up, as most trauma survivors tend to be. One of the things that we discuss in the section on Tone in the Assessment (Level 2) workshop is the tendency of this sort of client to suffer from rebounds. Panic attacks, migraine headaches and other rebound effects tend to burst on the scene not when the client is feeling particularly stressed (that's what the system is set up for), but rather during unusual periods of relaxation following a time of stress. It's not uncommon for the client to feel great relief during the relaxation training (though often it won't last all the way through the session), then have a strong bounce back into the fear or rage that characterizes them most of the time.

You might look into Berceli's work (http://www.traumaprevention.com/index.php?nid=article & article_id=80 to purchase his DVD or booklet--either for $30--and check out the rest of his site as well). Berceli has traveled the world working with individuals and groups experiencing trauma after-effects. His work is based on the research that shows traumatic experiences of helplessness result in the fight/flight energy getting locked up in a freeze response. If this energy can be expressed by the muscles (largely the huge psoas muscle in the center of the body), the trauma is physically expressed and released. The exercises can be done by oneself or in a small group. The DVD has a nice demonstration of the exercises and how the process works during the release.

Pete

Thanks so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need something else here. Referral may be tricky since this gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Not to complicate things here, as I completely agree that CBT--especially if it is intended to re-activate the traumatic event--is not likely to be helpful with an issue that is programmed into the brain's response patterns at a very basic physiological level. I do want to toss in a caveat, though, about " relaxation " training with people who are autonomically wound up, as most trauma survivors tend to be. One of the things that we discuss in the section on Tone in the Assessment (Level 2) workshop is the tendency of this sort of client to suffer from rebounds. Panic attacks, migraine headaches and other rebound effects tend to burst on the scene not when the client is feeling particularly stressed (that's what the system is set up for), but rather during unusual periods of relaxation following a time of stress. It's not uncommon for the client to feel great relief during the relaxation training (though often it won't last all the way through the session), then have a strong bounce back into the fear or rage that characterizes them most of the time.

You might look into Berceli's work (http://www.traumaprevention.com/index.php?nid=article & article_id=80 to purchase his DVD or booklet--either for $30--and check out the rest of his site as well). Berceli has traveled the world working with individuals and groups experiencing trauma after-effects. His work is based on the research that shows traumatic experiences of helplessness result in the fight/flight energy getting locked up in a freeze response. If this energy can be expressed by the muscles (largely the huge psoas muscle in the center of the body), the trauma is physically expressed and released. The exercises can be done by oneself or in a small group. The DVD has a nice demonstration of the exercises and how the process works during the release.

Pete

Thanks so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need something else here. Referral may be tricky since this gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete.

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Van Deusen

Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:38 AM

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

Not to complicate things here, as I completely agree that

CBT--especially if it is intended to re-activate the traumatic event--is not

likely to be helpful with an issue that is programmed into the brain's response

patterns at a very basic physiological level. I do want to toss in a

caveat, though, about " relaxation " training with people who are

autonomically wound up, as most trauma survivors tend to be. One of the

things that we discuss in the section on Tone in the Assessment (Level 2)

workshop is the tendency of this sort of client to suffer from rebounds.

Panic attacks, migraine headaches and other rebound effects tend to burst on

the scene not when the client is feeling particularly stressed (that's what the

system is set up for), but rather during unusual periods of relaxation

following a time of stress. It's not uncommon for the client to feel great

relief during the relaxation training (though often it won't last all the way

through the session), then have a strong bounce back into the fear or rage that

characterizes them most of the time.

You might look into Berceli's work (http://www.traumaprevention.com/index.php?nid=article & article_id=80 to

purchase his DVD or booklet--either for $30--and check out the rest of his site

as well). Berceli has traveled the world working with individuals and

groups experiencing trauma after-effects. His work is based on the research

that shows traumatic experiences of helplessness result in the fight/flight

energy getting locked up in a freeze response. If this energy can be expressed

by the muscles (largely the huge psoas muscle in the center of the body), the

trauma is physically expressed and released. The exercises can be done by

oneself or in a small group. The DVD has a nice demonstration of the

exercises and how the process works during the release.

Pete

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Connie Welsh

wrote:

Thanks

so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need

something else here. Referral may be tricky since this

gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last

week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may

not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have

acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work

with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in

thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback

and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that

will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

..

Error! Filename not specified.

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete.

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Van Deusen

Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:38 AM

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

Not to complicate things here, as I completely agree that

CBT--especially if it is intended to re-activate the traumatic event--is not

likely to be helpful with an issue that is programmed into the brain's response

patterns at a very basic physiological level. I do want to toss in a

caveat, though, about " relaxation " training with people who are

autonomically wound up, as most trauma survivors tend to be. One of the

things that we discuss in the section on Tone in the Assessment (Level 2)

workshop is the tendency of this sort of client to suffer from rebounds.

Panic attacks, migraine headaches and other rebound effects tend to burst on

the scene not when the client is feeling particularly stressed (that's what the

system is set up for), but rather during unusual periods of relaxation

following a time of stress. It's not uncommon for the client to feel great

relief during the relaxation training (though often it won't last all the way

through the session), then have a strong bounce back into the fear or rage that

characterizes them most of the time.

You might look into Berceli's work (http://www.traumaprevention.com/index.php?nid=article & article_id=80 to

purchase his DVD or booklet--either for $30--and check out the rest of his site

as well). Berceli has traveled the world working with individuals and

groups experiencing trauma after-effects. His work is based on the research

that shows traumatic experiences of helplessness result in the fight/flight

energy getting locked up in a freeze response. If this energy can be expressed

by the muscles (largely the huge psoas muscle in the center of the body), the

trauma is physically expressed and released. The exercises can be done by

oneself or in a small group. The DVD has a nice demonstration of the

exercises and how the process works during the release.

Pete

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Connie Welsh

wrote:

Thanks

so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need

something else here. Referral may be tricky since this

gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last

week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may

not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have

acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work

with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in

thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback

and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that

will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

..

Error! Filename not specified.

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete.

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Van Deusen

Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:38 AM

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

Not to complicate things here, as I completely agree that

CBT--especially if it is intended to re-activate the traumatic event--is not

likely to be helpful with an issue that is programmed into the brain's response

patterns at a very basic physiological level. I do want to toss in a

caveat, though, about " relaxation " training with people who are

autonomically wound up, as most trauma survivors tend to be. One of the

things that we discuss in the section on Tone in the Assessment (Level 2)

workshop is the tendency of this sort of client to suffer from rebounds.

Panic attacks, migraine headaches and other rebound effects tend to burst on

the scene not when the client is feeling particularly stressed (that's what the

system is set up for), but rather during unusual periods of relaxation

following a time of stress. It's not uncommon for the client to feel great

relief during the relaxation training (though often it won't last all the way

through the session), then have a strong bounce back into the fear or rage that

characterizes them most of the time.

You might look into Berceli's work (http://www.traumaprevention.com/index.php?nid=article & article_id=80 to

purchase his DVD or booklet--either for $30--and check out the rest of his site

as well). Berceli has traveled the world working with individuals and

groups experiencing trauma after-effects. His work is based on the research

that shows traumatic experiences of helplessness result in the fight/flight

energy getting locked up in a freeze response. If this energy can be expressed

by the muscles (largely the huge psoas muscle in the center of the body), the

trauma is physically expressed and released. The exercises can be done by

oneself or in a small group. The DVD has a nice demonstration of the

exercises and how the process works during the release.

Pete

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Connie Welsh

wrote:

Thanks

so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need

something else here. Referral may be tricky since this

gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last

week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may

not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have

acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work

with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in

thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback

and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that

will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

..

Error! Filename not specified.

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Connie,

I haven't seen any mention of where you are located, but perhaps it would be fruitful to check the EEG Associates website to see if there's neurofeedback available for this fellow free of charge through the Veterans' Project. See www.eeg4veterans.org . Also, if you do incorporate guided imagery at some point, I think the book INVISIBLE HEROES by Belleruth Naparstek would be well worth your time and money, as would her recording for PTSD (see "Imagery for Healing Trauma" www.healthjourneys.com). If there are problems with memory and concentration, and most likely this is a part of the package, you may want to introduce cognitive training exercises at some point, and the Captain's Log software by Brain Train (www.braintrain.com look at the bottom of the page for "free leases for veterans").

I would stay far far away from a strict CBT approach, as that is fraught with potential to worse his situation, for reasons that others have already cited. Best of luck to you - please keep us posted.

Merrifield

-------------- Original message from "Connie Welsh" : --------------

Thanks so much for the response! This only validates my first hunch that I need something else here. Referral may be tricky since this gentleman is very attached to this agency and cried when the nurse quit last week. He does not like change. Referring him to another agency may not be the right thing. He is currently in case management.

We do have acupuncture at our facility. I could have him go daily while I work with relaxation for awhile and try to find out how to either get supervision in thought field work(I have actually been studying this along with neurofeedback and will look into if I could do this with help) or a referral that will accept Medicaid (maybe if I ask real nice).

Thanks again. Connie

From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of conniewelsh2Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:10 PMTo: braintrainer Subject: PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body ideas with working with PTSD.My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I, and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe place (my office). There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided imagery. Any other thoughts?Thanks, Connie

[Guest guest]

" Cognitive Processing Therapy " which is Cognitive/behavioral and which

is supported by research might be the next best step for you. Maybe call

contact Stoeckle at rstoeckle@... or .

and ask about training in this.

To learn a bit more go to;

http://main.edc.org/newsroom/features/military.asp

There were a few posts here recently which warned you about using CBT

with PTSD. Those warnings are not based on any evidence based research

I'm aware of and they don't seem to realy be based on any understanding

of the sequence of interventions within CBT therapy. Exposure is not

just introduced at the onset and it's not just applied in large doses

as was suggested here when people warned you about the use of CBT. If

you do some research on empericaly based treatments of PTSD you can

check the accuracy of what some have warned you about here.

Below is another link. Note how EMDR compares with CBT

http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_empiricalinfo_treatm

ent_dis.html?opm=1 & rr=rr129 & srt=d & echorr=true

Bruce

>

> I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

> have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

> neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

> ideas with working with PTSD.

>

> My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am

I,

> and she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

> place (my office).

>

> There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

> place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

> imagery. Any other thoughts?

>

> Thanks, Connie

>

[Guest guest]

Just a note of experience here. Relaxation training can produce

paradoxical responses in PTSD folks because it is not safe for them to relax

...so instead of calm you might get panick...or no response at all. CBT is a

large application toolkit. I am more in favor of building on safety areas

in the client's world long before building on increased exposure. So, if

white refrigerators are a trigger for PTSD for example, I do not set up

stimulus saturation training for either white or refrigerators of the same

shape. Since refrigerators are pretty essential in daily living and the

client most likely would like to have one to use, I might suggest starting

with exposure to one that is half size, as different a shape and function as

possible and a different color....then decorated with the clients own

magnets, doodles etc...different from the remembered one that's a trigger.

We are finding use of a beta blocker (specifically inderal) is a help in

retraining acceptance and use of previously feared objects and setting to

assist in recapturing these as normal and enjoyable or functional on the

clients terms without old associations claiming them back. FWIW.

Aliceann Carlton, LCPC

-- PTSD - Can't use neurofeedback - Any ideas?

I am currently working for an agency as a counseling intern and they

Have no money to pay for Pete or someone else to supervise me with

Neurofeedback. But, I am wondering if anyone has any other mind/body

Ideas with working with PTSD.

My current supervisor is a cognitive/behavioral therapist and so am I,

And she suggests having this gentleman relive this trama in a safe

Place (my office).

There has to be something I can do mind body wise to create a safer

Place where he can be more of an observer. I was thinking guided

Imagery. Any other thoughts?

Thanks, Connie

[Guest guest]

I did a lot of research on PTSD and what I read had the most

success was EMDR. It was claimed to be the only way to heal. I didn’t

know about NFB at the time and don’t remember it mentioned. I now know

this would help, but EMDR is billed under normal psychiatric/counseling so

therefore most insurances would cover it. I even saw people who were trying to

fund EMDR for our soldiers returning from war. Lots of info. On the web.

[Guest guest]

One of things I have noticed about wartime PTSD is that

there may not be a specific traumatic incident that would be considered the

antecedent of the PTSD reaction. For example, the VA wanted me to identify that

one time and the one event in which I was traumatized. However, I have no

memory of one event. I just lived in an environment in which daily my life was

in jeopardy. I was almost killed 12 times. Which one caused the PTSD? I have no

idea. Etiology doesn’t seem as important as my response and current level

of functioning. This is true of a number of my fellow soldiers. In fact, I had

two friends who developed moderate PTSD type symptoms even though they were in

Bagram at the Air Force base. They never saw combat. They never killed a

person and their exposure to death was the memorial parades of soldiers KIA.

However, they still had to maintain high vigilance and were under constant stress.

This made getting VA care a lot more difficult because they were diagnosed with

an adjustment disorder, even though they clearly showed major symptoms of PTSD.

Looking back on it, the model of PTSD seems outdated. I

would prefer to see it as a spectrum disorder. Not a discrete diagnosis. The

way I see it is that chronic exposure to an environment in which my fight or

flight response was consistently required conditioned my system to respond

accordingly. It is basically Pavlovian theory of conditioning. We know that

chronic stress has extremely detrimental effects on the body. We also know that

the brain changes so it makes sense that the vets coming home would be

susceptible to trauma, even if there is no specific incident. When it comes to

treatment, having to clearly identifiable trigger may make treatment difficult.

My thought is that treatments need to be re-evaluated for efficacy if trauma is

not limited to a single traumatic incident as the current model tends to focus

on. Are there several types of trauma, that share the same symptoms but their

cause is different?

Nath

Lecturer

Department of Psychology

California State University, Stanislaus

[Guest guest]

One of things I have noticed about wartime PTSD is that

there may not be a specific traumatic incident that would be considered the

antecedent of the PTSD reaction. For example, the VA wanted me to identify that

one time and the one event in which I was traumatized. However, I have no

memory of one event. I just lived in an environment in which daily my life was

in jeopardy. I was almost killed 12 times. Which one caused the PTSD? I have no

idea. Etiology doesn’t seem as important as my response and current level

of functioning. This is true of a number of my fellow soldiers. In fact, I had

two friends who developed moderate PTSD type symptoms even though they were in

Bagram at the Air Force base. They never saw combat. They never killed a

person and their exposure to death was the memorial parades of soldiers KIA.

However, they still had to maintain high vigilance and were under constant stress.

This made getting VA care a lot more difficult because they were diagnosed with

an adjustment disorder, even though they clearly showed major symptoms of PTSD.

Looking back on it, the model of PTSD seems outdated. I

would prefer to see it as a spectrum disorder. Not a discrete diagnosis. The

way I see it is that chronic exposure to an environment in which my fight or

flight response was consistently required conditioned my system to respond

accordingly. It is basically Pavlovian theory of conditioning. We know that

chronic stress has extremely detrimental effects on the body. We also know that

the brain changes so it makes sense that the vets coming home would be

susceptible to trauma, even if there is no specific incident. When it comes to

treatment, having to clearly identifiable trigger may make treatment difficult.

My thought is that treatments need to be re-evaluated for efficacy if trauma is

not limited to a single traumatic incident as the current model tends to focus

on. Are there several types of trauma, that share the same symptoms but their

cause is different?

Nath

Lecturer

Department of Psychology

California State University, Stanislaus

[Guest guest]

One of things I have noticed about wartime PTSD is that

there may not be a specific traumatic incident that would be considered the

antecedent of the PTSD reaction. For example, the VA wanted me to identify that

one time and the one event in which I was traumatized. However, I have no

memory of one event. I just lived in an environment in which daily my life was

in jeopardy. I was almost killed 12 times. Which one caused the PTSD? I have no

idea. Etiology doesn’t seem as important as my response and current level

of functioning. This is true of a number of my fellow soldiers. In fact, I had

two friends who developed moderate PTSD type symptoms even though they were in

Bagram at the Air Force base. They never saw combat. They never killed a

person and their exposure to death was the memorial parades of soldiers KIA.

However, they still had to maintain high vigilance and were under constant stress.

This made getting VA care a lot more difficult because they were diagnosed with

an adjustment disorder, even though they clearly showed major symptoms of PTSD.

Looking back on it, the model of PTSD seems outdated. I

would prefer to see it as a spectrum disorder. Not a discrete diagnosis. The

way I see it is that chronic exposure to an environment in which my fight or

flight response was consistently required conditioned my system to respond

accordingly. It is basically Pavlovian theory of conditioning. We know that

chronic stress has extremely detrimental effects on the body. We also know that

the brain changes so it makes sense that the vets coming home would be

susceptible to trauma, even if there is no specific incident. When it comes to

treatment, having to clearly identifiable trigger may make treatment difficult.

My thought is that treatments need to be re-evaluated for efficacy if trauma is

not limited to a single traumatic incident as the current model tends to focus

on. Are there several types of trauma, that share the same symptoms but their

cause is different?

Nath

Lecturer

Department of Psychology

California State University, Stanislaus

[Guest guest]

Nath+

May I, briefly, propose to you that PTSD is an 'image processing

disorder' and that the pROSHI2+ treats the brain as the nonlinear

image processor that it is; thus causing the brain to correct and

remove those accumulated image 'distortions', as its usage is

continued. No other training method, in neuroscience, comes close.

See http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/pROSHI/ and follow the

links.

Best regards,

/ChuckD....

http://roshi.com/

>

> One of things I have noticed about wartime PTSD is that there may

not be a

> specific traumatic incident that would be considered the antecedent

of the

> PTSD reaction. For example, the VA wanted me to identify that one

time and

> the one event in which I was traumatized. However, I have no memory

of one

> event. I just lived in an environment in which daily my life was in

> jeopardy. I was almost killed 12 times. Which one caused the PTSD?

I have no

> idea. Etiology doesn't seem as important as my response and current

level of

> functioning. This is true of a number of my fellow soldiers. In

fact, I had

> two friends who developed moderate PTSD type symptoms even though

they were

> in Bagram at the Air Force base. They never saw combat. They never

killed a

> person and their exposure to death was the memorial parades of

soldiers KIA.

> However, they still had to maintain high vigilance and were under

constant

> stress. This made getting VA care a lot more difficult because they

were

> diagnosed with an adjustment disorder, even though they clearly

showed major

> symptoms of PTSD.

>

>

>

> Looking back on it, the model of PTSD seems outdated. I would

prefer to see

> it as a spectrum disorder. Not a discrete diagnosis. The way I see

it is

> that chronic exposure to an environment in which my fight or flight

response

> was consistently required conditioned my system to respond

accordingly. It

> is basically Pavlovian theory of conditioning. We know that chronic

stress

> has extremely detrimental effects on the body. We also know that

the brain

> changes so it makes sense that the vets coming home would be

susceptible to

> trauma, even if there is no specific incident. When it comes to

treatment,

> having to clearly identifiable trigger may make treatment

difficult. My

> thought is that treatments need to be re-evaluated for efficacy if

trauma is

> not limited to a single traumatic incident as the current model

tends to

> focus on. Are there several types of trauma, that share the same

symptoms

> but their cause is different?

>

>

>

> Nath

>

> Lecturer

>

> Department of Psychology

>

> California State University, Stanislaus

>

[Guest guest]

Nath+

May I, briefly, propose to you that PTSD is an 'image processing

disorder' and that the pROSHI2+ treats the brain as the nonlinear

image processor that it is; thus causing the brain to correct and

remove those accumulated image 'distortions', as its usage is

continued. No other training method, in neuroscience, comes close.

See http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/pROSHI/ and follow the

links.

Best regards,

/ChuckD....

http://roshi.com/

>

> One of things I have noticed about wartime PTSD is that there may

not be a

> specific traumatic incident that would be considered the antecedent

of the

> PTSD reaction. For example, the VA wanted me to identify that one

time and

> the one event in which I was traumatized. However, I have no memory

of one

> event. I just lived in an environment in which daily my life was in

> jeopardy. I was almost killed 12 times. Which one caused the PTSD?

I have no

> idea. Etiology doesn't seem as important as my response and current

level of

> functioning. This is true of a number of my fellow soldiers. In

fact, I had

> two friends who developed moderate PTSD type symptoms even though

they were

> in Bagram at the Air Force base. They never saw combat. They never

killed a

> person and their exposure to death was the memorial parades of

soldiers KIA.

> However, they still had to maintain high vigilance and were under

constant

> stress. This made getting VA care a lot more difficult because they

were

> diagnosed with an adjustment disorder, even though they clearly

showed major

> symptoms of PTSD.

>

>

>

> Looking back on it, the model of PTSD seems outdated. I would

prefer to see

> it as a spectrum disorder. Not a discrete diagnosis. The way I see

it is

> that chronic exposure to an environment in which my fight or flight

response

> was consistently required conditioned my system to respond

accordingly. It

> is basically Pavlovian theory of conditioning. We know that chronic

stress

> has extremely detrimental effects on the body. We also know that

the brain

> changes so it makes sense that the vets coming home would be

susceptible to

> trauma, even if there is no specific incident. When it comes to

treatment,

> having to clearly identifiable trigger may make treatment

difficult. My

> thought is that treatments need to be re-evaluated for efficacy if

trauma is

> not limited to a single traumatic incident as the current model

tends to

> focus on. Are there several types of trauma, that share the same

symptoms

> but their cause is different?

>

>

>

> Nath

>

> Lecturer

>

> Department of Psychology

>

> California State University, Stanislaus

>