Re: Re: Burning Fat for Energy- low carb debate- Heidi

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:17:33 -0700 (PDT)

<dezinegal@...> wrote:

> --- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

<snip>

> > Why Do Adults Become Diabetic?

> >

> > Adults and children develop Type-2 diabetes as a consequence of

> > eating a high-carbohydrate diet - and for no other reason.

> > .......................

> > The " no other reason " part is what I take issue with. The Japanese

> > and other Asians

> > have eaten a very high carb diet for a long time ... with low levels

> > of obesity

> > and of diabetes.

>

> Where is the definitve proof? Have you got some links to some reputable

> journal articles or a book like Price's that have shown exactly what a

> typical amount of carbs is in the daily diet of the Japanese? or

> Chineese? Just because they eat rice doesnt mean they eat huge

> quantities of it (unless they are a sumo wrestler). And yes exercise

> plays a huge role in the development of type 2 diabetes...but the less

> carbs you eat the less exercise you need to keep your body sensitive to

> insulin. And maybe it's not the rice! Maybe they have low fructose

> consumption!

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/japan.html

THE FRENCH PARADOX

Foods Eaten per Person per Year (in Pounds)

Japan France US

Cereals 232 188 150

Potatoes & Starches 82 168 69

Sugars 47 75 155

Total Carbohydrates 361 431 374

Meats 84 239 258

Eggs 40 31 34

Fish 157 40 16

Dairy Foods 186 788 576

Total Animal Foods 467 1098 884

High consumption of animal foods compared to the Japanese is said to

be the cause of heart disease in America. But the French consume much

higher levels of animal foods and have much lower rates of heart disease.

Americans consume much higher levels of sugar.

Adopted from A Taste of Japan, 1993

War, the God That Failed

http://tinyurl.com/2npch

" They told just the same,

That just because a tyrant has the might

By force of arms to murder men downright

And burn down house and home and leave all flat

They call the man a captain, just for that.

But since an outlaw with his little band

Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

He only earns the title of a thief. "

--Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

Eat fat, get thin... lift big, get small.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:17:33 -0700 (PDT)

<dezinegal@...> wrote:

>

> Where is the definitve proof? Have you got some links to some reputable

> journal articles or a book like Price's that have shown exactly what a

> typical amount of carbs is in the daily diet of the Japanese? or

> Chineese? Just because they eat rice doesnt mean they eat huge

> quantities of it (unless they are a sumo wrestler). And yes exercise

> plays a huge role in the development of type 2 diabetes...but the less

> carbs you eat the less exercise you need to keep your body sensitive to

> insulin. And maybe it's not the rice! Maybe they have low fructose

> consumption!

Oops, forgot the China article:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html

War, the God That Failed

http://tinyurl.com/2npch

" They told just the same,

That just because a tyrant has the might

By force of arms to murder men downright

And burn down house and home and leave all flat

They call the man a captain, just for that.

But since an outlaw with his little band

Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

He only earns the title of a thief. "

--Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

Eat fat, get thin... lift big, get small.

[Guest guest]

>Where is the definitve proof? Have you got some links to some reputable

>journal articles or a book like Price's that have shown exactly what a

>typical amount of carbs is in the daily diet of the Japanese? or

>Chineese? Just because they eat rice doesnt mean they eat huge

>quantities of it (unless they are a sumo wrestler). And yes exercise

>plays a huge role in the development of type 2 diabetes...but the less

>carbs you eat the less exercise you need to keep your body sensitive to

>insulin. And maybe it's not the rice! Maybe they have low fructose

>consumption!

My take is that the poorer a person is, the more rice they eat.

I don't have any firm stats, I'm sure someone does, but I've

known Korean and Japanese families and eaten with them,

and they eat a LOT of rice! And noodles. And I suspect you

are right about the fructose ... until recently they didn't

have soda pop etc.

But the main thing is they don't *overeat*. The problem

with carbs is when they don't have anywhere to go ... if

your glycogen stores are FULL and then you still eat sugars/starches.

(fructose is handled differently). Normally, a person with

full glycogen stores isn't hungry for carbs and doesn't eat

them ... but folks in our culture eat even when they are

over fat and full of glycogen. Which, according to the theories

about the appestat *should not happen*. The appestat is

majorly screwed up in an overweight person.

The WD helps in that the glycogen stores get emptied

during the day. Low carb empties them too, so does

exercise.

>So if the " thrifty gene " theory is correct then that could span other

>races and be a part of many peoples genetic makeup as here in the U.S.

>so many are of mixed origin. If that's the case then a low carb diet is

>*the* answer along with exercise.

I agree it's genetic ... but when they put the American Pima on the

" traditional " forms of beans and corn, they lose weight and

have less insulin resistance. So the FORM of the carb is important

too. But the point is ... even those with the " thrifty " gene don't

necessarily develop T2 diabetes on a high carb diet.

>There are waaaaay too many people singing the praises of a low carb

>diet- increased energy, better concenration, better libido to write it

>off as only useful to the obese or those with diabetes. If you stop to

>remember that early man didnt have access to the sugar laden fruits of

>today (I know you know this)

Actually, I doubt that is true. It is true that in northern climes, high

sugar fruits are rare, but that isn't true at all further south. Pawpaws

and persimmons are REALLY high sugar fruits, and they are old and

not highly bred.

>and then say " I wonder if the healthy

>Japanese who are not low carbing would be *even* more healthy if they

>were eating low carb " , then it becomes an issue of what diet is closest

>to what we think early man thrived on and what diet produces optimum

>health in humans? Maybe it's just fructose that's screwing us up and

>not the carbs in general, but there is fructose in some veggies too so

>it really seems to be a guessing game.

Low carb is the current fad, and I'm not against it ... but the low

carb group really is ignoring a lot of data. The anthropologists

figure ancient man got a fair amount of carbs ... somewhere between

30-40 percent for some groups. They dug roots a lot, and roots

can be big and they are very starchy.

As most folks on this list know, I personally think the current

culprit is likely certain grains, combined with lack of breastfeeding,

infant formula, lack of probiotics and massive amounts of fructose in

everything.

T1 diabetes can reliably be created in rats by giving the zonulin ... which

causes leaky gut. T1 diabetes can also be created in rats by giving them

casein and gluten too early in their development ... something we do

to a lot of babies. T2 is a little more complex, but I think basically a lot

of the overdosing on carbs that triggers it comes from the excess

cortisol that is produced from food allergies, stress, and yeah, bad

food and too many carbs of the wrong sort. But I'd never simplify

it to the point of saying " too many carbs cause diabetes " ... there

are just too many studies pointing to more complex issues.

The danger in this simplification is that some of the " allergic " foods,

most of them in fact, are not carbs. Wheat gluten is a biggie, and

now they are making " low carb " foods from wheat gluten. Since

gluten is one of the foods that can trigger T1 (and this has been

shown in humans: withdraw the gluten and the antipancreatic

antibodies are NOT produced) ... feeding some kids low carb goodies

made from wheat gluten would be a very bad thing.

>Ok, i'm really wishing we were all in a big room yaking about all this

>cause this is soooo time consuming to type these replies! Thanks for

>your input . Reply or dont reply, but i'm all typed out!

OK, I can relate!

>Need to get outside...yes...outside goood...

>

>~

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/30/04 3:20:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

dezinegal@... writes:

There are waaaaay too many people singing the praises of a low carb

diet- increased energy, better concenration, better libido to write it

off as only useful to the obese or those with diabetes.

______

A lot of people do great on it, and a lot of people do awful on it. I, for

one, have decrease energy and insomnia when I low-carb.

Low-carbing is generally way better than what most people are doing and were

doing before they low-carbed, so it's kind of hard to use the low-carbing

masses as a yard stick to judge improvements by.

Anyway, I second Heidi's taking issue with the " only cause " of diabetes being

high-carb diets. There's way too much evidence that nutrient deficiencies,

specific kinds of carbs, and other factors play a role. And there's too much

evidence that a high-carb diet can be eaten without developing diabetes.

This has been debated on this list plenty in the past, but for one example,

T2 diabetes can be induced in rats with high-sugar diets. But the same diets

do not produce diabetes in experimental groups supplemented with fish oils.

Also, trans fats are associated with diabetes. Maybe they play some independent

role, but trans fats are associated with EFA deficiency too, because butter

has EFAs and trans fat products don't, so that's another form of evidence that

EFAs play a role.

T1 can be induced in rats by feeding purified wheat gluten too, which has no

carbs, and there's evidence that an immune reaction to wheat can lead to

anti-pancreatic antibodies.

So a categorical statement that there is " no other cause " to diabetes than a

high-carb diet, is, by the evidence, completely and utterly wrong.

Chris