Re: Burning Fat for Energy- ?re: getting too skinny- Heidi

[Guest guest]

wrote:

You are probably referring to gluconeogenesis. THis process is the only

time the body will convert fats to glucose. Only happens when we run

out of glycogen, usually during starvation mode, which is why it

happens in diabetics whose blood sugars are through the roof. Their

bodies are starving as there is no insulin to get glucose into the

cells so fat is then broken down.

__________

I respond:

Hi . Everything I've read indicates that gluconeogenesis is common and

regular. Most energy production pathways seem to be coactive with other

pathways. Certain changes can produce changes in the percentage of overall

energy

production or consumption that is attributable to one or the other, but there

isn't generally just one mode of energy production and consumption going on at

once.

All of the basic textbook info I've read says that some of the lactic acid is

converted to glucose in the liver during exercise, which re-enters the blood,

which is gluconeogenesis. Is that incorrect?

Gluconeogenesis is induced by glucocorticoids such as cortisol. Some

cortisol usually exists in the body at any given moment, I believe, but in any

case

it is a hormone that usually plays a role on a daily basis. So some

gluconeogenesis must be going on from day to day.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, and you meant that it only becomes the

*dominant* mode of energy production/consumption when glycogen runs out?

Usually the liver has a regulation system where it will decrease the amount

of glycogen it is breaking down when it increases gluconeogenesis and vice

versa. Under some conditions in diabetes this is thrown off. The following

study

found under certain conditions gluconeogenesis was increased with no decrease

in glycogenolysis.

Chris

_________

: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Aug;89(8):3914-21. Related Articles, Links

Separate contribution of diabetes, total fat mass, and fat topography to

glucose production, gluconeogenesis, and glycogenolysis.

Gastaldelli A, Miyazaki Y, Pettiti M, Buzzigoli E, Mahankali S, Ferrannini E,

DeFronzo RA.

Metabolism Unit, C.N.R. Institute of Clinical Physiology and Department of

Internal Medicine, University of Pisa School of Medicine, 56100 Pisa, Italy.

The contribution of increased gluconeogenesis (GNG) to the excessive rate of

endogenous glucose production (EGP) in type 2 diabetes (T2DM) is well

established. However, the separate effects of obesity (total body fat), visceral

adiposity, and T2DM have not been investigated. We measured GNG (by the (2)H(2)O

technique) and EGP (with 3-(3)H-glucose) after an overnight fast in 44 type 2

diabetic and 29 gender/ethnic-matched controls. Subjects were classified as

obese (body mass index 30 kg/m(2) or greater) or nonobese (body mass index < 30

kg/m(2)); diabetic subjects were further subdivided according to the severity of

fasting hyperglycemia [fasting plasma glucose (FPG) < 9 mm or >or= 9 mm]. EGP

was similar in nondiabetic controls and T2DM with FPG less than 9 mm but was

increased in T2DM with FPG >or= 9 mm (P < 0.001). Within the diabetic groups,

obesity had an independent effect to further increase basal EGP (P < 0.01). In

both nonobese diabetic groups, both the percent GNG and gluconeogenic flux

were increased, compared with nonobese nondiabetic controls. In both diabetic

groups, obesity further increased both percent GNG and gluconeogenic flux. In

obese and nonobese T2DM, the increase in gluconeogenic flux was not accompanied

by a reciprocal decrease in glycogenolysis, indicating a loss of hepatic

autoregulation. By multivariate analysis, gluconeogenic flux was positively

correlated with percent body fat, visceral fat, and the fasting plasma free

fatty

acid and glucose concentrations (all P

[Guest guest]

>--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

>

>> Someone here

>> on the WD though said they got their bs to the 90 range after 2 days

>> on the WD, I don't know if they maintained that. That person also

>> had been on a low carb diet and was able to increase carbs slightly

>> on the WD.

>

>Is this person a diabetic on insulin? How many carbs a day are we

>talking about here?

I don't know ... I was hoping she'd pipe up and answer for herself but

she may not be listening.

>> But the WD book wasn't written for diabetics, so I

>> wouldn't

>> use Ori's recommendations blindly. Other folks are studying f/f on

>> diabetics.

>

>This was my whole point. The Warrior Diet is not designed for diabetics

>type 1 or 2, especially ones that have to rely on insulin. It *might*

>work for either, but it would most likely have to be done as a low carb

>approach. Is the Warrior Diet a low carb diet? I get the impression

>from your and and Chris's posts that you all eat as many carbs

>as you want during the feasting hours. So can it be done as a low carb

>diet during the feasting hours and still provide the promised results?

>Has anyone tried this?

Sure, you can go low carb during the feasting hours. Ori mostly

recommends " do what works " , he's not very dogmatic. The WD is low

*starch* during the day (raw fruits and vegies you can eat all day) and

sort of low carb at night (you eat your protein first, and some carbs

he doesn't approve of, like white flour and sugar.) He says if you

are trying to lose weight, eat less starch, but the WD isn't primarily

a weight loss diet.

But part of the confusion here is that the " feast fast " idea is NOT

originally from Ori (and HE uses the ancient Romans as his model, so he

really doesn't claim it's a recent invention at all). The ff research

is being done in labs on mice and people, and the results

are just beginning to trickle in. Some people are experimenting with

diabetics, but Ori isn't one of them.

I'm not diabetic, nor is AFAIK, but my blood sugar was rather

unstable and I considered myself " at risk " which was one reason

I went to the feast/fast idea. If I WERE diabetic, I'd whip out my

trusty bs meter and some chart paper and experiment like mad

for what works for ME ... I tend not to take anyone's word on

anything if it's something I can experiment with reasonably safely.

>> However, I don't eat a high-carb diet by any means, and the carbs I

>> do

>> eat (like hash browns) tend to be slow digesting and coated in oil.

>

>Any idea how many carbs a day you are eating? Also any idea how many

>calories?

It varies. I eat fruit all day ... usually a grapefruit in the AM, then say a

big slice

of watermelon at lunch. Usually a potato at dinner, along with some wine.

(and a nice chunk of meat, kimchi, vegies, of course!). The carb/fat/protein

ratio seems to be 30/40/30 or so, but I don't really regulate it, it just ends

up that way.

I think I eat somewhere between 1800 and 2500 cals a day.

> Right. I've read the same thing. If on a low carb diet and you want to

>get rid of ketone breath just up your protein and you will still burn

>fat, but will stop the break down of muscle which apparently is what

>causes the funky bad breath and urine smell while low carbing.

You can break down muscle on a low calorie diet too, which is one reason

I avoid them! I do remember the " diet breath " ...

>> Recently I

>> was reading about an enzyme that helps turn fat into glucose ...

>> I'll send the reference if I can find it. I don't think it is " rare "

>

>You are probably referring to gluconeogenesis. THis process is the only

>time the body will convert fats to glucose. Only happens when we run

>out of glycogen, usually during starvation mode, which is why it

>happens in diabetics whose blood sugars are through the roof. Their

>bodies are starving as there is no insulin to get glucose into the

>cells so fat is then broken down.

That's pretty much my take. If a person REALLY restricts carbs, they

will run out of glycogen, so the body will try to make some any

way it can. But the issues with diabetes and with weight loss are

really different.

>~

>

>ps- thank-you for always posting clean, easy to read replies!

I suspect some of this has to do with the person's email

system. Eudora messes up for me sometimes and then

my replies get unreadable ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

originally wrote:

> You are probably referring to gluconeogenesis. THis process is the

> only

> time the body will convert fats to glucose. Only happens when we run

> out of glycogen, usually during starvation mode, which is why it

> happens in diabetics whose blood sugars are through the roof. Their

> bodies are starving as there is no insulin to get glucose into the

> cells so fat is then broken down.

_______

Then, wrote:

<<<<< you took my statement to Heidi's post out of context, and are

now asking me about something that is a whole different tangent. She

was making the claim that fat can be and is converted to glucose while

in ketosis in *some* people (ie-the Inuit), which could potentially

negate the effects of blood sugar control in diabetics while on a low

carb diet. I responded that it sounded like she was talking about

gluconeogenesis. I did not bring this up so i could go over every

possbile MINOR energy conversion pathway in the body. I suggested it as

an answer specifically related to the situation she was posing as from

all the reports of type 1 and 2 diabetics i've read as well as Dr.

Berstein's book there has been zero mention of low carb diets

eventually leading to an increase in glucose in the blood from dietary

fat.>>>>

______

,

I'll take your word for it that you didn't mean to make the statement that

gluconeogenesis only occurs during glycogen depletion, but from the text quoted

above, it still seems that's what you were saying.

But if you didn't mean that, then I probably have no disagreement with what

you meant.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/28/04 7:25:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

It would be interesting to see the comparison, or, if FF combined

with x degree of carb restriction would give the same results.

_____

Based on the little I know about the little we know, it seems that the FF

model is dependent on a large portion of insulin-stimulating food during the

feasting schedule. Much of the benefits of FF over CR is the increased, rather

than decreased, IGF-1 levels, for example, which are dependent on insulin.

It seems that this would not be workable for a T1 diabetic, because the

benefits to insulin sensitivity are less relevant when the insulin simply can't

be

produced endogenously. I wish it weren't the case, because it is simpler for

me to believe in a one-size-fits-all approach, but the world rarely behaves in

a manner conducive to such an approach.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>> If the FF method works for

>> diabetics, then the

>> current studies will show if it does or not.

>

>And are these studies testing the Warrior Diet method- " fasting " during

>the day with fruit and lean meat and then feasting at night? Or are

>they testing a one day a week fast? So far the animal and human studies

>done on fasting have only tested the following:

>1. effects of one entire day of severe reduced caloric intake followed

>by a day of feasting

>2. 1 day a week of reduced caloric intake.

>

>When they run some studies testing the exact Warrior Diet approach I

>would be interested in reading them.

There is one being run, though I don't know if it is on diabetics, using

the " 20/4 " protocol (not the Warrior diet per se). If I hear the results,

I'll for sure post them!

So, has Dr. Bernstein done any work with either 1. or 2. above?

It would be interesting to see the comparison, or, if FF combined

with x degree of carb restriction would give the same results.

>Yes, but I *never* said it wouldnt work for non-diabetics. I said that

>it would not be the optimal choice for diabetics to control and

>maintain their blood sugars in the 85-90 range. You need to have an

>understanding of the complex intricacies of walking the blood sugar

>tightrope, which takes work for type 2's, but is a monumental and

>complicated task for type 1's on anything, but a very low carb diet.

>I've been low carbing 70-90g a day for the last year and my control has

>been *so* much better. In the last 3 days I've dropped to 40-50g(this

>is net carbs), dropped my insulin accordingly and my blood sugars are

>now almost perfect (85-100) all the time.

Like I said, I have little experience with diabetes so I'm not even

going to argue there! When the pancreas doesn't create insulin

then that is a whole different problem, esp. it is different than

type 2 (which to my mind is probably a result of just too much

food too often of the wrong type).

>

>I am not about to try the Warrior Diet " as is " because it's not low

>carb. By the time I make it low carb what's the point? I'm low carbing

>now! Furthermore by eating huge amounts of food near bedtime I risk

>exacerbating " the Dawn Phenomenon " that I experience every night. The

>Dawn Phenomenon is where the body causes elevated blood sugars by

>raising hormones around 4am to get the body ready to wake up around

>6-7am when the sun comes up. Most diabetics have to time their long

>acting insulin and/or exercise so that their effects peak at the same

>time as this hormonal peak. The problem comes in when you complicate

>things with a huge meal of protein that will peak sometime while you're

>sleeping since you " feasted " on huge amounts of food after 6pm. This is

>why Barry Groves recommends a light dinner.

Yeah, I would expect the dynamics are very different for you.

All I can ever say is what works for me ... my blood sugar swings

are stabilized, but having and insulin/cortisol imbalance probably

caused them in the first place ... if the pancreas isn't working,

as is my understanding of T1 diabetes, it's a whole different thing.

>I'm glad you and others have found that the Warrior Diet works best for

>you and that you enjoy being on it. If, god forbid, any of your kids

>develop type 1 diabetes and you put them on the Warrior Diet, let me

>know how successful it is vs. a low carb diet for keeping their blood

>sugars in the 85-100 range most of the time.

I hope they don't too, and it's always good to hear what works

for other folks, for the ol' data storage! I'm looking forward to

the day when they start testing kids for anti-pancreatic antibodies

BEFORE their pancreas is destroyed, which would be a far, far

better solution than anything they are doing now. The tests

exist, and they can stop the antibodies in at least a large percentage

of the cases, so why don't they test the kids? Esp. if it runs

in a family.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>> Unfortunately the goal in most medicine (and probably what they will

>> do

>> with the FF idea) is to allow folks to have a " normal " lifestyle

>> which in

>> this culture is pretty abnormal.

>

>I'm not sure who you're referring to here and I'm not sure what you

>mean by normal, but I'm finding it pretty darn easy to eat bacon and

>eggs, kefirized coconut milk, veggies sauteed in lard, fermented

>veggies, meat stuffed green peppers, 1/2 cup of strawberries or

>nectarines here and there, mexican chicken etc. etc. And I'm eating

>only 3 meals a day as all this fat is keeping me full a looooong time.

I meant " normal " in the sense of historically normal. Whether you

use the yardstick of what folks ate 100 years ago, 50 years

ago, or 5,000 years ago, the diet of today isn't " normal " . No one

has ever lived off the stuff we try to eat today.

Some people really do like low carb and do well on it. Which is great.

One thing about fat is that some folks at least just don't absorb

the " extra " . It can be neutral ... the body just doesn't digest it,

but it doesn't feed bacteria in the gut profoundly. Rancid fat

creates butyrate, which is good for the gut. Carbs are a different

issue ... eat too many, and the body either has to absorb them,

or they feed bacteria that have bad side effects.

>By the way, what was it that you didnt like about low carbing? And how

>long did you try it?

>

>~

I think I did it about 6 months, and basically I gained about 15 lbs. I do NOT

lose weight on low carb! And I was always hungry, snacking constantly

(on low carb stuff ...). And insanely thirsty. And got lots of migraines. It

drove me nuts. Now I'm not hungry much, get full quickly, and really

enjoy the stuff I'm eating, and I'm a lot skinnier.

In retrospect, the bad effects I got from " low carb " may be from the cream.

Dairy really doesn't like me much. Too many nuts don't work either.

Good beef isn't a problem, nor is bacon. Eating a LOT of sugar makes

me shaky the next day, but it doesn't make me near as ill as cream

and cream isn't nearly as deadly as wheat.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> --- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

>

> > In retrospect, the bad effects I got from " low carb " may be from the

> > cream.

> > Dairy really doesn't like me much.

>

> Prior to your convincing posts about the evils of dairy in susceptible

> people I was eating cheese like crazy along with a cup or two of raw

> all Jersey cow milk a day. This was when i had my carbs down to only

> 60-90g a day. I also gained weight and was a bottomless pit for those

> damn mozarella cheese sticks. Now that I'm dairy and gluten free I get

> quite full and stay full on the same amount of calories or less on a

> 30-40g a day low carb diet. Only been on it a few days though so I dont

> know how crappy or great I'm going to feel in the next 10 days if i hit

> the ketosis wall...although if i keep my protein high enough i may

> avoid that and still get the benefits.

>

> ~

,

Have been following this thread and can relate it to what I've done and has

worked for me with my blood sugar issues. The only problem I had with low

carbing was feeling blue few mornings in a row about a week after I quit

gluten about this time a year ago. Have quit dairy because of mucus since,

except for small amounts of cheese not often at night only. Carbs then were

probably under 50 and only from dairy, coconut milk and daily avocado. I was

inadvertantly eating only free carbs at the same time in the form of fresh

nonstarchy garden vegetables. Never was a big fruit eater, junk carbs being

my poison.

Luckily I was reading The Schwarzbein Principle, another diabetes doctor

diet at this time. She notes depression can occur with carb restriction and

allows increases. Posted what had happened to this list. Dr. Marasco, who is

off and on here said whenever he puts anyone on a gluten free diet he

substitutes some of the carbs to avoid depression. For myself, just a few

days of home fried potatoes or winter squash loaded with butter with supper

stopped those blues. Starchy vegetables are nearly as evil as bread and

pasta to low carb. Satiation described in this article

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/giobesity.php

works for my feeling normalized.

Prior to a year ago I weighed less than I ever have since 6th grade and had

muscle loss so bad I could touch my fingers around my arm below the elbow.

Gained 5 lbs. of muscle and a weight I've never been able to stay at thats

below most of my life's weight. Have increased my protein since being sure

to not substitute egg protein for animal with better results. I do do a

Warrior type feast famine because for years I always ate little during the

day and most in the evening. SAD, junk carbs, salads and fruit never worked.

Egg, animal protein, avocado, nut butter and celery are about all I eat

before evening as I want them. Eating 6 times a day small meals gave me

lower energy to work from because of constantly digesting. Some days I may

be as low as 30 -40 g/c but without the starchy vegetables for long I know

I'm in depressive trouble which is just as unwanted as glucose problems.

Have neither this way.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>Prior to your convincing posts about the evils of dairy in susceptible

>people I was eating cheese like crazy along with a cup or two of raw

>all Jersey cow milk a day. This was when i had my carbs down to only

>60-90g a day. I also gained weight and was a bottomless pit for those

>damn mozarella cheese sticks. Now that I'm dairy and gluten free I get

>quite full and stay full on the same amount of calories or less on a

>30-40g a day low carb diet. Only been on it a few days though so I dont

>know how crappy or great I'm going to feel in the next 10 days if i hit

>the ketosis wall...although if i keep my protein high enough i may

>avoid that and still get the benefits.

>

>~

And keep your fat high ... if you are really low carb you NEED fat.

I think a lot of diet issues have to do with IgA allergies though.

If you react to a food, any food (gluten and casein are just

the most common) then you overproduce cortisol, and that just

messes with your appetite something awful. Like you, I get really

full now on rather small portions, something I *never* thought

would happen!

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

I'd like to read some of those posts. Do you recall the numbers of them?

Dawn

>

> >Prior to your convincing posts about the evils of dairy in susceptible

> >people I was eating cheese like crazy along with a cup or two of raw

> >all Jersey cow milk a day. This was when i had my carbs down to only

> >60-90g a day. I also gained weight and was a bottomless pit for those

> >damn mozarella cheese sticks. Now that I'm dairy and gluten free I get

> >quite full and stay full on the same amount of calories or less on a

> >30-40g a day low carb diet. Only been on it a few days though so I dont

> >know how crappy or great I'm going to feel in the next 10 days if i hit

> >the ketosis wall...although if i keep my protein high enough i may

> >avoid that and still get the benefits.

> >

> >~

>

> And keep your fat high ... if you are really low carb you NEED fat.

> I think a lot of diet issues have to do with IgA allergies though.

> If you react to a food, any food (gluten and casein are just

> the most common) then you overproduce cortisol, and that just

> messes with your appetite something awful. Like you, I get really

> full now on rather small portions, something I *never* thought

> would happen!

> >

>

> Heidi Jean