Re: Diet and Autism

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " "

>

> Did you see the test results or just get his interpretation? Could it be

that they just weren't outside the normal range?

>

, that's an excellent point. I've gotten to where I ask for numbers

rather than the doctor's interpretation of the results. I've personally

experienced too many tests where I was told the numbers were " normal " only

to find out that it was the doctor's subjective idea of what was normal and

the numbers were really off. Max's mom might benefit from doing a little

more digging and pushing them to give her the raw data.

--s

[Guest guest]

There is also an article about autism treatments in the current issue of

Alternative Medicine magazine.

mdlies <dan@...> wrote:

For years I had an insatiable hunger, I was literally starving to

death (6'0 " 135lbs), even though I was eating mass quantities of

food. I always needed a combination of fat, protein and bread to

feel somewhat satisfied. If I skipped the the bread I would not feel

full. Maybe adding more fat to the diet will help the kid from

feeling " starving " .

The latest Mothering magazine has an article on autism and diet (and

a vaccine article).

http://www.mothering.com/1-0-0/1-0-0.shtml

Mothering

Issue 126, September/October 2004

Autism & Vaccine Injury: One Child's Recovery

By Romaniec

How a change in diet saved a child with autism.

In The Wake Of Vaccines

By Barbara Loe Fisher

Chronic illness and vaccinations: Is there a connection?

-Dan

> this is so frustrating because the child (and the mother actually)

> have been using the SCD/BED diet for awhile - alhought slightly

> modified - with hardly any improvement. they've been STRICT gluten

> .

> .

> there. poor kid is STARVING on this mainly meat/veggie diet!!!

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I e-mailed you a few days ago, but it occurred to me that you might

not have gotten it since I wasn't subscribed to the list at the time

I sent it.

I have the exact same symptoms from dairy that you've described. On

top of the symptoms you listed, I also get a really bad headache

that extends down to my teeth. My joints ache. I don't sleep. I

get GI symptoms and I develop a sinus infection. I don't find it

too hard to avoid dairy!

I guess I just wanted to get in touch with you because I've never

met anyone else who has the bizarre mental symptoms. I was thinking

we could compare notes. Maybe we could help one another get to the

root of the problem.

Dawson

P.S. I also have two children who are on the autism spectrum and my

mother would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic if she would go

to a psychiatrist for her issues. Interesting, huh?

> >What do you mean most of your reactions are in your brain? That

it's

> >psychosomatic?

>

> No, I mean my neurons react. I lose the sense of where my hands and

> feet are (and trip and bump into things a lot) and I get depressed,

> anxious, or angry. Also I can't think well or negotiate in 3D ...

I can

> write or program, but often can't talk and make sense, if I have

> gluten or casein. I THOUGHT it was psychosomatic at one point,

> until I really tracked it on paper and realized there were real

> physical symptoms (like little dots on my skin). The problem is,

> when your brain isn't functioning well, it is really hard to

analyze

> things ...

>

> >

>

> Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/12/04 2:05:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

Well, just based on my own experience and what I've read, the problem probably

IS dairy and/or gluten.

_____

~~~~>I've read of several diets that were able to cure autism in some

children. All of them eliminated gluten, and one of them was focused on just

eliminating gluten. So I'm guessing that Body Ecology Diet, SCD, etc, have

success

due to eliminating gluten.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>I e-mailed you a few days ago, but it occurred to me that you might

>not have gotten it since I wasn't subscribed to the list at the time

>I sent it.

I did respond ... if you still haven't gotten it, I can resend it. My emailer is

problematic.

I'll be gone most of next week and maybe into the next though.

>I have the exact same symptoms from dairy that you've described. On

>top of the symptoms you listed, I also get a really bad headache

>that extends down to my teeth. My joints ache. I don't sleep. I

>get GI symptoms and I develop a sinus infection. I don't find it

>too hard to avoid dairy!

>

>I guess I just wanted to get in touch with you because I've never

>met anyone else who has the bizarre mental symptoms. I was thinking

>we could compare notes. Maybe we could help one another get to the

>root of the problem.

Well, just based on my own experience and what I've read, the problem probably

IS dairy and/or gluten. As for the " too hard to avoid " part, I went into major

depression once I convinced myself that really WAS the problem (took 4 months

of experimenting, it isn't something I wanted to believe). The funny thing

is, since I changed my diet it's like being on Prozac, I CAN'T get really

horridly depressed or anxious anymore, even when these major crises

happen (and trust me, we've had some really awful stuff happen). I cry

some and feel sorry for myself for like an hour then it's over. After 15 years

of major depression over stuff like, say, a dead pigeon, it's really amazing.

I've been on lists for the last couple of years though, and the bizarre

mental symptoms aren't uncommon at all. They are tragically common.

I can send you some of the emails folks have written on a public list,

though probably I should send them privately. What amazes me is that

the health professionals still don't do any kind of testing for this stuff.

About half of the folks with " mental problems " test postive for reaction

to gluten (as opposed to 10 percent of the regular population) and no

stats on casein intolerance. I have both.

Some of the mental issues are based on lack of nutrients,

I think. But there is something that happens a lot

faster too, because I start getting problems an hour

or so after eating (usually I feel elated) then the next

morning I get anxious and depressed (withdrawal?). My kids

seem to follow the same pattern. It's probably the " elation "

part that makes this stuff so addictive.

> Dawson

>

>P.S. I also have two children who are on the autism spectrum and my

>mother would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic if she would go

>to a psychiatrist for her issues. Interesting, huh?

Wow. Yeah, I'd get some tests done! Schizophrenia seems to resolve well on

a GF diet for a lot of people. Interestingly, in the GF group, the genes

involved

in " neurological " gluten intolerance seem to be different from the ones

involved in gut intolerance, HLA-DQ8 and DQ2 are in most gut intolerant

folks, and DQ1 is more common in the neurological folks. Tho that isn't

from a real study, just anectdotal.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: <ChrisMasterjohn@...>

> ~~~~>I've read of several diets that were able to cure autism in some

> children. All of them eliminated gluten, and one of them was focused on

just

> eliminating gluten. So I'm guessing that Body Ecology Diet, SCD, etc,

have success

> due to eliminating gluten.

>

> Chris

It is *more* than just eliminating gluten. These diets work because they

limit foods that are high glycemic or otherwise raise the internal glycemic

index. Since candida overgrowth is such a huge concern in the autistic

community, diets that work to control candida contribute to improvements

where going " only " gf/cf might meet with limited success.

But gluten is a huge underlying factor to be sure!

--s

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/13/04 3:25:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

snoakes@... writes:

It is *more* than just eliminating gluten. These diets work because they

limit foods that are high glycemic or otherwise raise the internal glycemic

index. Since candida overgrowth is such a huge concern in the autistic

community, diets that work to control candida contribute to improvements

where going " only " gf/cf might meet with limited success.

_____

~~~~~> The reason I said I thought gluten was the common denominator is that

all of the cases I've read of involved " several children " and one of them just

avoided gluten.

I don't see how limiting foods to higher glycemic index could possibly

resolve the candida issue, and it would seem to make sense that only the

highest-glycemic foods would help starve the candida, since the lower the

glycemic index,

the longer the food is in the gut allowed to ferment by the candida. If the

SCD has any success, it works on that principle. The SCD is an extremely

high-glycemic diet insofar as it has any carbs.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>It is *more* than just eliminating gluten. These diets work because they

>limit foods that are high glycemic or otherwise raise the internal glycemic

>index. Since candida overgrowth is such a huge concern in the autistic

>community, diets that work to control candida contribute to improvements

>where going " only " gf/cf might meet with limited success.

____

~~~~~>Oh, just to clarify, I didn't mean to appear to fully disagree with

this statement, if I did. I don't konw whether other approaches have better

success than gf/cf, but the very little I've read and heard about didn't offer

the

opportunity for comparison.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/13/04 7:36:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

snoakes@... writes:

Not " to. " From. Limiting higher glycemic foods in the diet. No sugar.

Stringent limits on starchy foods that become sugar in the body. Anything

that feeds yeast.

_____

~~~> Actually, I meant to write " from. "

____

I can't speak with much specificity to the SCD since we did the BED, which

limited starches and dietary sugars. And it worked.

____

~~~~> Ok, but in that case the emphasis seems to be limiting carbohydrates in

general, rather than emphasizing low-glycemic carbs.

It would make more sense to me that limiting the low-glycemic carbs would be

more important than limiting the high-glycemic carbs, because the

high-glycemic carbs require less digestion and will therefore be less available

in the gut

for fermentation. For example, honey would be much better for the gut than a

potato.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>It is *more* than just eliminating gluten. These diets work because they

>limit foods that are high glycemic or otherwise raise the internal glycemic

>index. Since candida overgrowth is such a huge concern in the autistic

>community, diets that work to control candida contribute to improvements

>where going " only " gf/cf might meet with limited success.

>

>But gluten is a huge underlying factor to be sure!

>

>--s

Adding probiotics makes a big difference too, which these diets

do. My body is entirely different on kefir-beer! (Kimchi doesn't

have as big an effect, tho it has other good stuff in it). I think

kefir is a great way to get rid of candida, even without going

super low-glycemic.

I've also been experimenting with Pascaline clay (and Bentonite)

and they seem to help in that area too. It is next to impossible

to really get rid of all the gluten when you eat out or at someone

else's house, but the clay seems to mitigate the side effects

nicely. I'm not sure whether or not, or how much, it interferes

with nutrients though (people who eat clay, and cats who do,

tend to get nutrient deficiencies so I'm leery, anyone know more

about this?).

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: <ChrisMasterjohn@...>

> ~~~~~> The reason I said I thought gluten was the common denominator is

that

> all of the cases I've read of involved " several children " and one of them

just

> avoided gluten.

Removing gluten is the start, but not the end. For some people, going

" just " gf works, but in the cause of ASD kids, more often than not there

sooooo much more.

> I don't see how limiting foods to higher glycemic index could possibly

> resolve the candida issue,

Not " to. " From. Limiting higher glycemic foods in the diet. No sugar.

Stringent limits on starchy foods that become sugar in the body. Anything

that feeds yeast.

If the

> SCD has any success, it works on that principle. The SCD is an extremely

> high-glycemic diet insofar as it has any carbs.

I can't speak with much specificity to the SCD since we did the BED, which

limited starches and dietary sugars. And it worked.

--s, who is putting foods back in these days.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer "

> Adding probiotics makes a big difference too, which these diets

> do.

Oh, wowsa, yes! This whole journey is actually how I ended up in the NN

list.

My kids are doing kefir....just recently " graduated " from coconut milk kefir

to goat's milk kefir. They've been doing kefir for about 6-7 months

along with kombucha tea and I consider these as intrinsic parts of their

healing process. It's truly medicine!

My body is entirely different on kefir-beer! (Kimchi doesn't

> have as big an effect, tho it has other good stuff in it). I think

> kefir is a great way to get rid of candida, even without going

> super low-glycemic.

For us, we needed radical and stringent remediation. They were losing a new

food every couple of weeks because of ever spiralling intolerances. But the

average bear could probably start swigging kefir and have it do the trick

for them.

> I've also been experimenting with Pascaline clay (and Bentonite)

> and they seem to help in that area too. It is next to impossible

> to really get rid of all the gluten when you eat out or at someone

> else's house, but the clay seems to mitigate the side effects

> nicely. I'm not sure whether or not, or how much, it interferes

> with nutrients though (people who eat clay, and cats who do,

> tend to get nutrient deficiencies so I'm leery, anyone know more

> about this?).

I'm clueless. LMK what you find out!

--s

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>For example, honey would be much better for the gut than a

>potato.

Quite so.

-

[Guest guest]

>For example, honey would be much better for the gut than a

>potato.

Though I should add that honey in quantity (that quantity varying from

individual to individual) can do a very good job of feeding weed organisms.

-

[Guest guest]

How do you make your coconut kefir? Do you use canned coconut milk?

Thanks,

Irene

At 04:30 PM 9/13/04, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----

>From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer "

>

> > Adding probiotics makes a big difference too, which these diets

> > do.

>

>Oh, wowsa, yes! This whole journey is actually how I ended up in the NN

>list.

>

>My kids are doing kefir....just recently " graduated " from coconut milk kefir

>to goat's milk kefir. They've been doing kefir for about 6-7 months

>along with kombucha tea and I consider these as intrinsic parts of their

>healing process. It's truly medicine!

>

>My body is entirely different on kefir-beer! (Kimchi doesn't

> > have as big an effect, tho it has other good stuff in it). I think

> > kefir is a great way to get rid of candida, even without going

> > super low-glycemic.

>

>For us, we needed radical and stringent remediation. They were losing a new

>food every couple of weeks because of ever spiralling intolerances. But the

>average bear could probably start swigging kefir and have it do the trick

>for them.

>

> > I've also been experimenting with Pascaline clay (and Bentonite)

> > and they seem to help in that area too. It is next to impossible

> > to really get rid of all the gluten when you eat out or at someone

> > else's house, but the clay seems to mitigate the side effects

> > nicely. I'm not sure whether or not, or how much, it interferes

> > with nutrients though (people who eat clay, and cats who do,

> > tend to get nutrient deficiencies so I'm leery, anyone know more

> > about this?).

>

>I'm clueless. LMK what you find out!

>

>--s

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Irene Musiol "

> How do you make your coconut kefir?

Same as dairy kefir, except that I keep dairy grains as back ups.

Do you use canned coconut milk?

> Thanks,

Yep. Open. Pour. Cover. Shake. Same as dairy....easy-peasy.

--s

[Guest guest]

>~~~~> Ok, but in that case the emphasis seems to be limiting carbohydrates in

>general, rather than emphasizing low-glycemic carbs.

>

>It would make more sense to me that limiting the low-glycemic carbs would be

>more important than limiting the high-glycemic carbs, because the

>high-glycemic carbs require less digestion and will therefore be less available

in the gut

>for fermentation. For example, honey would be much better for the gut than a

>potato.

>

>Chris

Seems to me that in growing yeast, the yeast are really picky about

what they eat, beyond the glycemic index part. For instance, my

molasses beer didn't feed yeast much at all, they ate it very slowly

and I got little " head " . But they love sugar! Also the mix of bacteria

and yeast makes a big difference ... even with sugar, the LB keep

the yeast from really overgrowing in my beer-maker. And as for

feeding bacteria ... the good bacteria and the bad bacteria seem

to eat pretty much the same foods, so the only way I can think

of to fix the mix is to eat bacteria-dense foods (like

kefir) that are good at overridding the baddies.

But also ... candida is one of those yeast that goes system-wide,

and it seems to LOVE high blood sugar. So diabetics get yeast

infections easily. Also a lot of people seem to have yeast problems

when they eat high-glycemic foods ... probably, I'd think, because

their blood sugar goes up and the yeast can then eat the sugar.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/13/04 8:47:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Idol@... writes:

Though I should add that honey in quantity (that quantity varying from

individual to individual) can do a very good job of feeding weed organisms.

____

~~~~>I'm wondering how to sort that out with the fact that honey is an

antibiotic. If it's so difficult and takes so much time to ferment anything

with

honey, wouldn't reasonable amounts fail to feed excess fermentation in the gut,

as it does in vitro?

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/04 12:59:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

Seems to me that in growing yeast, the yeast are really picky about

what they eat, beyond the glycemic index part.

____

~~~> On that note, I should fix what I said before. I don't think

high-glycemic is better than low-glycemic, but rather that the glycemic index is

completely irrelevant. For example, kefir, which is low-glycemic, can be good

(or

kefired coconut milk may be better), while complex carbs, which are

low-glycemic, could be bad. Pure glucose syrup would probably be much better

than

potatoes or bread, despite being extremely high-glycemic. But note that both

kefired

milk and kefired coconut milk are simple sugars, not complex carbs. Simple

sugars will be absorbed more rapidly and therefore not ferment in the gut as

much.

Adding salt will also help, as this will significantly speed the absorption

of the sugars across the intestinal lining.

_____

And as for

feeding bacteria ... the good bacteria and the bad bacteria seem

to eat pretty much the same foods, so the only way I can think

of to fix the mix is to eat bacteria-dense foods (like

kefir) that are good at overridding the baddies.

_____

~~~> They eat a lot of the same things, but not always. For example, inulin

appears to feed good bacteria and not bad bacteria. But the other FOS sugars

that usually are with inulin appear to feed both. Pure inulin is available.

I forwarded a post by Duncan Crow to this list with his permission a month or

two ago.

_____

But also ... candida is one of those yeast that goes system-wide,

and it seems to LOVE high blood sugar. So diabetics get yeast

infections easily. Also a lot of people seem to have yeast problems

when they eat high-glycemic foods ... probably, I'd think, because

their blood sugar goes up and the yeast can then eat the sugar.

_____

~~~> That's why I don't really buy the " starving the bacteria (/fungi) "

argument, especially in regard to a systemic infection. Blood sugar is

controlled

by hormones that are active even when you aren't eating. Even during fasting,

there will be sugar in the blood. Granted, eating can affect this insomuch

as eating in different ways can control these hormones. But, at least at

first, someone not eating sugar will still get high blood sugar swings if their

hormones are messed up (like many or most Americans'.) And there is always

more sugar in the blood than is being used at any given moment, so even with

good

hormone control, if the candida is infecting the blood stream, it should have

plenty of food.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>~~~~>I'm wondering how to sort that out with the fact that honey is an

>antibiotic. If it's so difficult and takes so much time to ferment

>anything with

>honey, wouldn't reasonable amounts fail to feed excess fermentation in the

>gut,

>as it does in vitro?

Well, it seems to me there are three separate factors to consider.

First, the quality of the honey: I've noticed that with Really Raw Honey, I

can reliably make NT's pickled salmon recipe, which relies on honey to feed

lactobacteria to form acid to pickle the salmon, but once I switched to YS

Organic, a boutique mail-order honey, all my salmons failed to

pickle. Most people don't eat high-quality honey.

Second, the nature of the bacteria and the antibiotic effect: it's

perfectly possible that honey is effective against the sort of microbes

it's likely to encounter in the hive and in the external world, while

organisms found in the digestive tract are unaffected.

Third, the effect of digestion: even if gut organisms would be unable to

thrive on honey if cultured outside the body, perhaps exposure to stomach

acid, digestive enzymes, dissolution and dilution in chyme, etc., reduce or

eliminate honey's antibiotic effect.

Any one of these, and certainly two or three in combination, could account

for it. And just to add a bit of anecdotal data, though I haven't

experimented with ingestion of significant quantities of honey, in small

amounts, YS Organic and Really Raw seem to affect me equivalently, both

digestively and metabolically.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>For example, inulin

>appears to feed good bacteria and not bad bacteria.

Not so.

>Pure inulin is available.

>I forwarded a post by Duncan Crow to this list with his permission a month or

>two ago.

Duncan Crow is a troll. He sells inulin, and he's extremely selective

about which evidence he'll acknowledge. I and other people have argued

with him extensively on Healing Crow, an SCD-oriented group here on ,

and the scientific evidence against him is quite substantial. He wound up

being banned from that list because he used its member database to market

his products to people offlist, and if he shows up here I'll ban him myself.

-

[Guest guest]

:Message: 54788 From: ChrisMasterjohn@a... Received: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:46 PM

:Subject: Re: Re: Diet and Autism

:

:~~~>I'm wondering how to sort that out with the fact that honey is an

:antibiotic. If it's so difficult and takes so much time to ferment anything

with

:honey, wouldn't reasonable amounts fail to feed excess fermentation in the gut,

:as it does in vitro?

:

:Chris

Wouldn't dilution reduce the antibiotic effects? Plus, could it

be possible that heat treated honey acts differently to raw

unheated honey?

Darrell

[Guest guest]

>~~~> They eat a lot of the same things, but not always. For example, inulin

>appears to feed good bacteria and not bad bacteria. But the other FOS sugars

>that usually are with inulin appear to feed both. Pure inulin is available.

>I forwarded a post by Duncan Crow to this list with his permission a month or

>two ago.

>_____

Interestingly, some group recently reviewed the " probiotic " studies

and found that while good results were to be had, no one had

actually defined what a " probiotic " bacteria was! I'm not even

sure it is possible. While some bacteria are obviously bad (like

salmonella), a lot of it seems to be a matter of balance. For instance,

acidophilus seems to be a " good guy " , but it CAN overgrow

and cause major problems. I personally think one of the reasons

kefir is good is that it has a lot of bacteria/yeast that live in

symbiosis, and no one bacteria takes over.

>

>~~~> That's why I don't really buy the " starving the bacteria (/fungi) "

>argument, especially in regard to a systemic infection. Blood sugar is

controlled

>by hormones that are active even when you aren't eating. Even during fasting,

>there will be sugar in the blood. Granted, eating can affect this insomuch

>as eating in different ways can control these hormones. But, at least at

>first, someone not eating sugar will still get high blood sugar swings if their

>hormones are messed up (like many or most Americans'.) And there is always

>more sugar in the blood than is being used at any given moment, so even with

good

>hormone control, if the candida is infecting the blood stream, it should have

>plenty of food.

I agree. *something* else keeps it in check ... I did read one article about

bacteria

in the nasal tract that is normally there ... so the bacteria keep the fungi in

check (and the fungi seem to be more problematic than the bacteria). PH is a big

factor (not to sound like the acid/base fanatics, but it is an issue, and every

organ

probably has the correct value and I don't even know what it is).

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 06:55 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote:

>Wouldn't dilution reduce the antibiotic effects? Plus, could it

>be possible that heat treated honey acts differently to raw

>unheated honey?

>

>Darrell

Possibly true ... heated honey doesn't have the antibiotic effects of

raw honey. But for making mead, it doesn't make any difference ... yeast

really, really has a slow time fermenting honey, it can take a year or so

to make mead! Sugar takes 3 days.That is diluted honey, of course.

But the end product is still sweet. Those bees seem to know how

to keep the sugar from getting eaten by bacteria or yeast.

You can try it at home ... add some honey to a glass of water, and some yeast.

Add some sugar to another glass, add some yeast. Taste the results after

a few days, after a week.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/04 8:56:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Idol@... writes:

Third, the effect of digestion: even if gut organisms would be unable to

thrive on honey if cultured outside the body, perhaps exposure to stomach

acid, digestive enzymes, dissolution and dilution in chyme, etc., reduce or

eliminate honey's antibiotic effect.

____

~~~> Great point. Honey is advocated for wounds, but it doesn't encounter

stomach acid and digestion.

Chris