Re: aversive sounds

[Guest guest]

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Hello, Has anybody tried to put aversive sounds when a band pass a threshold in order the client to avoid passing it? mike

[Guest guest]

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Hello, Has anybody tried to put aversive sounds when a band pass a threshold in order the client to avoid passing it? mike

[Guest guest]

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Hello, Has anybody tried to put aversive sounds when a band pass a threshold in order the client to avoid passing it? mike

[Guest guest]

I had included a hissing sound that triggered when Beta3 is over the threshold (in a much more complex soundscape).

In principle the hissing sound was "neutral", merely information. But in practice, it made my explanation to the client much more complex:

"Ok, any sound you hear is a sign that you are winning- EXCEPT that hissing sound, which you want to turn off." Hmmm...

The Beta3 over threshold also mutes any other signal that is in a Pass mode. And that is what I decided to keep.

The hissing sound I remove.

And let the person feel good when there is sound- any sound.

EEG BF is complex and subtle in it's perceptability for the trainee.

So- All Sounds are Good, removes from the trainee one of the complexities in his/her perception

Gives him a single direction to grow toward.

Hope this experience helps,

Van Deusen

Re: aversive sounds

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Mihail Batakis <mihail_batakisyahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

Has anybody tried to put aversive sounds when a band pass a threshold in order the client to avoid passing it?

mike

[Guest guest]

I had included a hissing sound that triggered when Beta3 is over the threshold (in a much more complex soundscape).

In principle the hissing sound was "neutral", merely information. But in practice, it made my explanation to the client much more complex:

"Ok, any sound you hear is a sign that you are winning- EXCEPT that hissing sound, which you want to turn off." Hmmm...

The Beta3 over threshold also mutes any other signal that is in a Pass mode. And that is what I decided to keep.

The hissing sound I remove.

And let the person feel good when there is sound- any sound.

EEG BF is complex and subtle in it's perceptability for the trainee.

So- All Sounds are Good, removes from the trainee one of the complexities in his/her perception

Gives him a single direction to grow toward.

Hope this experience helps,

Van Deusen

Re: aversive sounds

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Mihail Batakis <mihail_batakisyahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

Has anybody tried to put aversive sounds when a band pass a threshold in order the client to avoid passing it?

mike

[Guest guest]

I had included a hissing sound that triggered when Beta3 is over the threshold (in a much more complex soundscape).

In principle the hissing sound was "neutral", merely information. But in practice, it made my explanation to the client much more complex:

"Ok, any sound you hear is a sign that you are winning- EXCEPT that hissing sound, which you want to turn off." Hmmm...

The Beta3 over threshold also mutes any other signal that is in a Pass mode. And that is what I decided to keep.

The hissing sound I remove.

And let the person feel good when there is sound- any sound.

EEG BF is complex and subtle in it's perceptability for the trainee.

So- All Sounds are Good, removes from the trainee one of the complexities in his/her perception

Gives him a single direction to grow toward.

Hope this experience helps,

Van Deusen

Re: aversive sounds

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Mihail Batakis <mihail_batakisyahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

Has anybody tried to put aversive sounds when a band pass a threshold in order the client to avoid passing it?

mike

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to "mess" with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

-Nita

Subject: Re: aversive soundsTo: braintrainer Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 1:05 PM

Positiave reinforcement works better than negative. If you have a client who is anxious, or depressed or has low self esteem, giving them negative feedback simply reinforces the thing you are trying to change.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.._,_.___

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[Guest guest]

Nita,I like to use the music feedback, where the music is actually composed and played by the brain and IS the feedback, as, for example, in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal. If I am going to use actual music, because of the extreme variability of the EEG and the impossibility of having smooth changes in volume or even doing play/pause, I use it as background and have the click sound as the feedback.

We used an audiotape in the Atlanta offices of 60-beat-per-minute baroque music (Pachelbel Canon, Air on a G String, etc.) for clients we wanted to calm down and another (Mozart faster movements with higher pitched lead instruments like clarinet, violin, etc) for those we wanted to wake up. We just played on a tape player while the client was training and had good results. Now I simply have the music ripped from a CD and play it unattached in an Audio Player at a fairly low volume right in BioExplorer.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to " mess " with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Pete: I share your concerns about music feedback using a CD player so I turned to your recommended midi sound protocol in 2C WS Alpha Temporal. I have a couple of questions about it though.

1. Is the protocol generic, ie. can I use it for a full squash by replacing the 2-10Hz filters with a full 2-38Hz filter in each channel? It seems that one half of the signal passes through the thresholds but the other is unmodulated by feedback so is background.

2. I really don't understand what the threshold with the Manual "match"

2.

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to "mess" with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Sorry I just pressed send accidentally in my first post. Second question:

2. What is the Manual: MatchAuto doing. It seems the trainer should manually adust the threshold during the session so that it continually matches the Auto Bar. How is this different from two auto thresholds?

nick

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to "mess" with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Sorry I just pressed send accidentally in my first post. Second question:

2. What is the Manual: MatchAuto doing. It seems the trainer should manually adust the threshold during the session so that it continually matches the Auto Bar. How is this different from two auto thresholds?

nick

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to "mess" with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Sorry I just pressed send accidentally in my first post. Second question:

2. What is the Manual: MatchAuto doing. It seems the trainer should manually adust the threshold during the session so that it continually matches the Auto Bar. How is this different from two auto thresholds?

nick

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to "mess" with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Nick,The music IS the feedback in the 2C WS alpha temporal. Whenever the amplitude of the target band (whether it is a squish, squash or windowed squash) goes down, the pitch of the music changes (I generally have the pitch rise), and the volume also changes. This is continuous feedback. It doesn't start and stop. The client and the conscious mind generally can't make much sense of it, but the brain seems to figure it out.

The chimes, which are the sounds controlled by the thresholds, are contingent feedback, based on the brain meeting a target (which is usually set very difficult--so the brain passes only about 10% of the time. The continuous music gives information; the contingent chimes give direction. If the client is told the chimes are good, then whenever they play the brain recognizes it is going in the desired direction.

The auto and manual thresholds work jointly, when you use them as described in the Design Notes (go to the Design menu and choose Notes), so when the brain moves in the desired direction, there is more than 10% feedback, but if it does not move, at least it always gets extra feedback the " best " 10% of its performance.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Pete: I share your concerns about music feedback using a CD player so I turned to your recommended midi sound protocol in 2C WS Alpha Temporal. I have a couple of questions about it though.

1. Is the protocol generic, ie. can I use it for a full squash by replacing the 2-10Hz filters with a full 2-38Hz filter in each channel? It seems that one half of the signal passes through the thresholds but the other is unmodulated by feedback so is background.

2. I really don't understand what the threshold with the Manual " match "

2.

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to " mess " with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Pete:

Neat Idea but there are 3 window squashes similarly named.

a) 2 C ws alpha temporal

2 C -ws-alpha-temporal

c) 2 C-ws-alpha-temporal-revised

There appear to be some significant differences in the signal diagrams among the three but the only one with the Design Notes is (. Is that the recommended one -- the one to which your e-mail comments apply?

nick

Subject: Re: aversive soundsTo: braintrainer Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 12:55 PM

Nick,The music IS the feedback in the 2C WS alpha temporal. Whenever the amplitude of the target band (whether it is a squish, squash or windowed squash) goes down, the pitch of the music changes (I generally have the pitch rise), and the volume also changes. This is continuous feedback. It doesn't start and stop. The client and the conscious mind generally can't make much sense of it, but the brain seems to figure it out.The chimes, which are the sounds controlled by the thresholds, are contingent feedback, based on the brain meeting a target (which is usually set very difficult--so the brain passes only about 10% of the time. The continuous music gives information; the contingent chimes give direction. If the client is told the chimes are good, then whenever they play the brain recognizes it is going in the desired direction.The auto and manual thresholds work jointly, when you use them as described

in the Design Notes (go to the Design menu and choose Notes), so when the brain moves in the desired direction, there is more than 10% feedback, but if it does not move, at least it always gets extra feedback the "best" 10% of its performance.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 12:10 PM, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Pete: I share your concerns about music feedback using a CD player so I turned to your recommended midi sound protocol in 2C WS Alpha Temporal. I have a couple of questions about it though.

1. Is the protocol generic, ie. can I use it for a full squash by replacing the 2-10Hz filters with a full 2-38Hz filter in each channel? It seems that one half of the signal passes through the thresholds but the other is unmodulated by feedback so is background.

2. I really don't understand what the threshold with the Manual "match"

2.

Pete,

I completely agree. That is the reason I allow my trainers songs, self chosen, to run while training. He enjoys the songs immensly and his being allowed to chose them gets his buy in on the training. I spoke to him about the idea of why the music needs to go off and on or quieter and louder but it continued to annoy him to "mess" with his song. So this method of overlaying what he enjoys with something that reminds him he is moving into a bad place and needs to adjust seems to work very well. I don't think this would work well with kids. As you said the negative would be too negative for them. But I think since I let this trainer choose it helped him not view the sound as negative as it did as much to remind him to make a change.

[Guest guest]

Nick,If you use the Details view of the folder that has the designs in it, you can see their revision dates. I presume the latest one will be the one with the Design Notes.pete-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Pete:

Neat Idea but there are 3 window squashes similarly named.

a) 2 C ws alpha temporal

2 C -ws-alpha-temporal

c) 2 C-ws-alpha-temporal-revised

There appear to be some significant differences in the signal diagrams among the three but the only one with the Design Notes is (. Is that the recommended one -- the one to which your e-mail comments apply?