Re: Re: Suppressed tsh

[Guest guest]

With a complete thyroidectomy, it is HIGHLY unlikely that 90 mgs would be

enough. Your body would have to have full replacement, that is, eventually,

slowly, as said before, not all at once, because your body has to have time

to repair, adjust, etc....

Re: Suppressed tsh

> My statement was probably a little confusing to you without my

> background. BTW, had blood drawn for labs today, so will know where

> I stand soon. Even I may be having adrenal issues. I have no

> thyroid, had a complete thyroidectomy in '98, so it seems hardly

> likely that I can be functioning properly on such a low replacement

> dosage.

>

> Cathryn

[Guest guest]

HI Jan--

I've been experimenting with taking half of my dose sublingually,

because I think my body metabolizes medicine more slowly than most,

and I've been trying to stop my dang insomnia.

Also, do you know the scientific reason why the calcium studies

regarding thyroid issues have been so skewed? Or am I mistaken

here?

Best--

Courtenay.

Calcitonin and parathyroid hormone are both present in

Armour in unmeasured quantities. They are also both peptide hormones

like insulin, and as such, are destroyed by stomach

acids.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I believe

that taking Armour sublingually might give these two hormones a chance

of surviving to promote bone health. I still swallow mine. But if I

had a problem with bone density, I might try the sublingual route.

Courtenay

wrote:

What was the deal about taking Armour

under the tongue and it's calcium component?

Best--

Courtenay.

[Guest guest]

Is full replacement done according to body weight?

Best--

Courtenay.

With a complete thyroidectomy, it is

HIGHLY unlikely that 90 mgs would be

enough. Your body would have to have full replacement, that is,

eventually,

slowly, as said before, not all at once, because your body has to have

time

to repair, adjust, etc....

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the clarification. In passing, my so-so doc said

something about it, but he did not qualify his statements. My

mother was diagnosed with osteoporosis in her 40s, but it is hard to

gage against her health, as she consumes large quantities of caffeine

and sugar, and does not exercise, nor take calcium regularly.

All of which I find really puzzling, as my grandmother has severe

osteoporosis and is shaped like a question mark. My mother is

not a blood relation to my grandmother, but you would think her

condition might serve as a decent warning.

Best--

Courtenay.

I am not sure what calcium studies you are referring

to. If you are referring studies on osteoporosis and thyroid, the main

problem was that folks who already had osteoporosis when starting

thyroid hormone were not excluded from the study. " Skewed "

would not be the correct word to use. " Inaccurate " might

work better.

[Guest guest]

Body weight is just one factor. Individual absorption rates vary greatly. There are large folks who need small doses and small people who need large doses. I know one small lady locally who was taking 360 mg of Armour. Her hypothyroidism had been caused by aluminum poisoning. After chelation therapy, she was able to reduce her Armour to 270 mg. Courtenay wrote:

Is full replacement done according to body weight?

Best--

Courtenay.

With a complete thyroidectomy, it is HIGHLY unlikely that 90 mgs would beenough. Your body would have to have full replacement, that is, eventually,slowly, as said before, not all at once, because your body has to have timeto repair, adjust, etc....

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Body weight is just one factor. Individual absorption rates vary greatly. There are large folks who need small doses and small people who need large doses. I know one small lady locally who was taking 360 mg of Armour. Her hypothyroidism had been caused by aluminum poisoning. After chelation therapy, she was able to reduce her Armour to 270 mg. Courtenay wrote:

Is full replacement done according to body weight?

Best--

Courtenay.

With a complete thyroidectomy, it is HIGHLY unlikely that 90 mgs would beenough. Your body would have to have full replacement, that is, eventually,slowly, as said before, not all at once, because your body has to have timeto repair, adjust, etc....

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Body weight is just one factor. Individual absorption rates vary greatly. There are large folks who need small doses and small people who need large doses. I know one small lady locally who was taking 360 mg of Armour. Her hypothyroidism had been caused by aluminum poisoning. After chelation therapy, she was able to reduce her Armour to 270 mg. Courtenay wrote:

Is full replacement done according to body weight?

Best--

Courtenay.

With a complete thyroidectomy, it is HIGHLY unlikely that 90 mgs would beenough. Your body would have to have full replacement, that is, eventually,slowly, as said before, not all at once, because your body has to have timeto repair, adjust, etc....

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Some say that it is, even according to a lot of authoritative info I've read, but how I think it's really done, though, is by knowing the approximate amt of what a normal functioning healthy thyroid would make. I keep hearing many people say that that is approximately 4.5 to 5 grains of dessicated thyroid or somewhere between 300 to 400 mcgs of synthetic T4 (don't quote me on that last one, it could be over 400 at the top end). For someone who's had a total thyroiidectomy or was overshot on the RAI, and has absolutely no function left, that is. What I'm thinking though, is that some people required only a smaller amt, originally, as they may naturally not have had as much output to make their particular bodies "run" right, so that's a ballpark figure, I would say. IMHO, of course. If I had NO thyroid function, that's the way I would do it, anyway, gradually, of course. I know one person whose gland is absolutely fried from the emergency RAI, but her replacement, I believe, is not yet 4 grains. She says that she is feeling so much better, after being on this replacement for quite sometime now, though not yrs, yet. However, she has had no blood testing since she started self treatment, so that's just one example. I know though, that 90 mgs cannot possibly be full replacement for someone with a total thyroidectomy, no way! Oh yes, and my thought on giving by weight is this-----I don't see how this could be that legitimate because look at all the tiny people who are on monstrous doses of thyroid hormone and feeling good, not because of weight dosage, but rather because of the amt of failure of their glands. Then there is also the reasoning that the heavier a person is, the more hormone resistance may be going on, so there's got to be more than one factor to consider when deciding the dosage.

Re: Re: Suppressed tsh

Is full replacement done according to body weight?

Best--

Courtenay.

[Guest guest]

Some say that it is, even according to a lot of authoritative info I've read, but how I think it's really done, though, is by knowing the approximate amt of what a normal functioning healthy thyroid would make. I keep hearing many people say that that is approximately 4.5 to 5 grains of dessicated thyroid or somewhere between 300 to 400 mcgs of synthetic T4 (don't quote me on that last one, it could be over 400 at the top end). For someone who's had a total thyroiidectomy or was overshot on the RAI, and has absolutely no function left, that is. What I'm thinking though, is that some people required only a smaller amt, originally, as they may naturally not have had as much output to make their particular bodies "run" right, so that's a ballpark figure, I would say. IMHO, of course. If I had NO thyroid function, that's the way I would do it, anyway, gradually, of course. I know one person whose gland is absolutely fried from the emergency RAI, but her replacement, I believe, is not yet 4 grains. She says that she is feeling so much better, after being on this replacement for quite sometime now, though not yrs, yet. However, she has had no blood testing since she started self treatment, so that's just one example. I know though, that 90 mgs cannot possibly be full replacement for someone with a total thyroidectomy, no way! Oh yes, and my thought on giving by weight is this-----I don't see how this could be that legitimate because look at all the tiny people who are on monstrous doses of thyroid hormone and feeling good, not because of weight dosage, but rather because of the amt of failure of their glands. Then there is also the reasoning that the heavier a person is, the more hormone resistance may be going on, so there's got to be more than one factor to consider when deciding the dosage.

Re: Re: Suppressed tsh

Is full replacement done according to body weight?

Best--

Courtenay.

[Guest guest]

Quick!! All you normal thyroid people go fast and get your thyroids

removed!! You're going to get osteoporosis because your thyroid glands are

making thyroid hormone, day and night!!! Hurry, you MUST get this done, or

your bones are going to fall apart!! P-lease. What kind of reasoning is

this that a whole scientific community is saying this. They've got to be

kidding. Otherwise, all the normal people would REALLY be up the creek.

Re: Suppressed tsh

>

> > Also, do you know the scientific reason why the calcium studies

> > regarding thyroid issues have been so skewed? Or am I mistaken

> here?

> >

> > Best--

> >

> > Courtenay.

> ___________________

>

> I've tried to find an osteoporosis study done with Armour and have

> not been able to.

[Guest guest]

Quick!! All you normal thyroid people go fast and get your thyroids

removed!! You're going to get osteoporosis because your thyroid glands are

making thyroid hormone, day and night!!! Hurry, you MUST get this done, or

your bones are going to fall apart!! P-lease. What kind of reasoning is

this that a whole scientific community is saying this. They've got to be

kidding. Otherwise, all the normal people would REALLY be up the creek.

Re: Suppressed tsh

>

> > Also, do you know the scientific reason why the calcium studies

> > regarding thyroid issues have been so skewed? Or am I mistaken

> here?

> >

> > Best--

> >

> > Courtenay.

> ___________________

>

> I've tried to find an osteoporosis study done with Armour and have

> not been able to.

[Guest guest]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0IpUQcFa1sXofTk10CUnPSioiWvIC0iwIDr3Yv1LQzCyIQOz_I-2B3eyQeTE1fLHeC1b8Hz-8rK7IixTWluEL3f3HVA8mg/Optimal%20treatment.zip

Is this what you are referring to?

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0IpUQcFa1sXofTk10CUnPSioiWvIC0iwIDr3Yv1LQzCyIQOz_I-2B3eyQeTE1fLHeC1b8Hz-8rK7IixTWluEL3f3HVA8mg/Optimal%20treatment.zip

Is this what you are referring to?

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

http://www.eje.org/eje/149/eje1490091.htm

Or this may be the one...

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

http://www.eje.org/eje/149/eje1490091.htm

Or this may be the one...

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

BTW I fell this subject is all too true! I have now split my dosages into three times a day and every split I feel that much better. I also did another increase... Good news! My CAT went to the vet the other day for testing. Of course the veterinarians aren;t ANY better than our doctors so they did the wrong tests, even though I asked for Free T3 & T4 all I got was a Total T4. But at 2 grains of Armour a day, he is still low by even that test! The vet about dropped her jaw on the floor. She had told me when I was there that in 8 years of practice she had never had a hypothyroid cat. I asked her if she had ever tested any of the overweight kitties for it, and of course she had not. Maybe my kitty's problems will open the door for at least some other sick kitties to get proper treatment. I am sure many of the diabetic cats in the world got that way due to untreated/undiagnosed hypothyroidism. Every vet I have had him to just tells me.. cats don;t GET hypothyroidism. He is proving them wrong.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

BTW I fell this subject is all too true! I have now split my dosages into three times a day and every split I feel that much better. I also did another increase... Good news! My CAT went to the vet the other day for testing. Of course the veterinarians aren;t ANY better than our doctors so they did the wrong tests, even though I asked for Free T3 & T4 all I got was a Total T4. But at 2 grains of Armour a day, he is still low by even that test! The vet about dropped her jaw on the floor. She had told me when I was there that in 8 years of practice she had never had a hypothyroid cat. I asked her if she had ever tested any of the overweight kitties for it, and of course she had not. Maybe my kitty's problems will open the door for at least some other sick kitties to get proper treatment. I am sure many of the diabetic cats in the world got that way due to untreated/undiagnosed hypothyroidism. Every vet I have had him to just tells me.. cats don;t GET hypothyroidism. He is proving them wrong.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

Want me to open it & send it to you? It is big but a very good read.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

Want me to open it & send it to you? It is big but a very good read.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

Every vet I have had him to just tells me.. cats

> don;t GET hypothyroidism. He is proving them wrong.

>

> Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

>

That's funny you say that about the cats. I would have to say the same thing

about my dog. They say that dogs NEVER get hyper. I can BET my dog

is hyper.

When I take her in I am going to MAKE them check.

Thanks for the inspiration.

LYNN

[Guest guest]

Every vet I have had him to just tells me.. cats

> don;t GET hypothyroidism. He is proving them wrong.

>

> Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

>

That's funny you say that about the cats. I would have to say the same thing

about my dog. They say that dogs NEVER get hyper. I can BET my dog

is hyper.

When I take her in I am going to MAKE them check.

Thanks for the inspiration.

LYNN

[Guest guest]

Just get the results & interpret for yourself as in people they are skewed in their "normal" too! I have a dog that is 14 now and was told he was borderline hypothyroid 6 years ago. He never has had and still doesn;t have any symptoms of it so I refused to treat him. He is an Akita which is just about unheard of living this long and especially without thyroid problems.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

Just get the results & interpret for yourself as in people they are skewed in their "normal" too! I have a dog that is 14 now and was told he was borderline hypothyroid 6 years ago. He never has had and still doesn;t have any symptoms of it so I refused to treat him. He is an Akita which is just about unheard of living this long and especially without thyroid problems.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

This is exactly why, after looking at what everyone has had to say about the natural function of the gland (including all the articles I've read about it), I decided to start dosing up to 7 times a day. It's not easy to do that, and I royally screw it up most of the time, forgetting a dose or two here and there, especially while I'm working a fast-paced nursing floor. And, it's not as convenient, but I've found that, even though I've been feeling BETTER on the Armour, I still can't tolerate taking over 30 mgs at a time of it. This may seem a ridiculous way to take the thyroid, but, at least for the time being, I do better taking 15 mgs at a time every couple of hrs, rather than 2 or 3 split doses. I don't know if it's adrenal problems, the fact that I'm older and have something else going on "in there" that I don't know about, antibodies doing some secretive # on me, or if I'm actually converting it really fast but the cells aren't accepting it, or what. Because of the overshot amt of Free T3 on my last testing, I'm suspecting the last one more. I don't really have any way of knowing that, all I know is that I feel more "normal" (huh, whatever THAT is) taking these tiny, often doses. It's frustrating, though, because I feel like I have to be constantly vigilant to remember all these doses. I can't even take 45 mgs at one time without having an uncomfortable sensation of overbreathing or whatever it's called, yet I know that I wouldn't even be functioning at all if I was still taking the synthetic T4. It's a catch 22 thing. As you could see from my last testing, with a TSH that suddenly died down to something like a .005 or .006 (I don't have it here in front of me), my pituitary shut down, not rapidly, but quite suddenly. I'm speculating that the pituitary is one of the places where the antibodies have been steadily munching away, probably for around the last 18 months or so. This is why I was asking so many questions about possibly having a combo of Graves and Hashi's. Graves' I don't understand quite as well as the Hashi's, but they're both so complicated anyway. There is another antibody I haven't tested for that has to do with the Graves', but I suppose that would be water under the bridge anyway. I just want to understand what's going on in there, so that I can deal with it mentally better. Back when I was diagnosed with hypo, my charge nurse at the time was astounded at this (who was also hypo since the age of 8), because I was very skinny, very hyper acting, never wore a jacket in 30 degree weather, moved very rapidly everywhere I went, and she said that she would have guessed more t'wd Graves' hyper rather than primary hypo. Don't know if I'll ever know.

Re: Re: Suppressed tsh

I think that partial replacement is a myth and a half.

Thyroid hormone is released from a healthy thyroid gland in a gentle pulsatile fashion 24/7.

Because of the way thyroid replacement is administered-in jolts once or twice a day-TSH production is shut down before optimal levels of T3 and T4 are ever reached.

The pituitary says to itself, "This dude just swallowed 75 mcg of T4. That is about 75 times as much as I am used to getting at any one time. I don't think they will need any TSH any time soon. I think I will just go to sleep. . . . .zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. . ."

It doesn't matter that this dude actually needs 175 mcg of T4 and 17 mcg of T3 to feel well. The pituitary is out cold. . . . .

On our site in "Links" is an article that I consider to be the thyroid patients' "Holy Grail": "The Imperfections of Endocrine Replacement Therapy" or something like that. I don't remember which folder I put it in.

Whoever finds it and posts the location will get a big Oink! from me. .

[Guest guest]

This is exactly why, after looking at what everyone has had to say about the natural function of the gland (including all the articles I've read about it), I decided to start dosing up to 7 times a day. It's not easy to do that, and I royally screw it up most of the time, forgetting a dose or two here and there, especially while I'm working a fast-paced nursing floor. And, it's not as convenient, but I've found that, even though I've been feeling BETTER on the Armour, I still can't tolerate taking over 30 mgs at a time of it. This may seem a ridiculous way to take the thyroid, but, at least for the time being, I do better taking 15 mgs at a time every couple of hrs, rather than 2 or 3 split doses. I don't know if it's adrenal problems, the fact that I'm older and have something else going on "in there" that I don't know about, antibodies doing some secretive # on me, or if I'm actually converting it really fast but the cells aren't accepting it, or what. Because of the overshot amt of Free T3 on my last testing, I'm suspecting the last one more. I don't really have any way of knowing that, all I know is that I feel more "normal" (huh, whatever THAT is) taking these tiny, often doses. It's frustrating, though, because I feel like I have to be constantly vigilant to remember all these doses. I can't even take 45 mgs at one time without having an uncomfortable sensation of overbreathing or whatever it's called, yet I know that I wouldn't even be functioning at all if I was still taking the synthetic T4. It's a catch 22 thing. As you could see from my last testing, with a TSH that suddenly died down to something like a .005 or .006 (I don't have it here in front of me), my pituitary shut down, not rapidly, but quite suddenly. I'm speculating that the pituitary is one of the places where the antibodies have been steadily munching away, probably for around the last 18 months or so. This is why I was asking so many questions about possibly having a combo of Graves and Hashi's. Graves' I don't understand quite as well as the Hashi's, but they're both so complicated anyway. There is another antibody I haven't tested for that has to do with the Graves', but I suppose that would be water under the bridge anyway. I just want to understand what's going on in there, so that I can deal with it mentally better. Back when I was diagnosed with hypo, my charge nurse at the time was astounded at this (who was also hypo since the age of 8), because I was very skinny, very hyper acting, never wore a jacket in 30 degree weather, moved very rapidly everywhere I went, and she said that she would have guessed more t'wd Graves' hyper rather than primary hypo. Don't know if I'll ever know.

Re: Re: Suppressed tsh

I think that partial replacement is a myth and a half.

Thyroid hormone is released from a healthy thyroid gland in a gentle pulsatile fashion 24/7.

Because of the way thyroid replacement is administered-in jolts once or twice a day-TSH production is shut down before optimal levels of T3 and T4 are ever reached.

The pituitary says to itself, "This dude just swallowed 75 mcg of T4. That is about 75 times as much as I am used to getting at any one time. I don't think they will need any TSH any time soon. I think I will just go to sleep. . . . .zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. . ."

It doesn't matter that this dude actually needs 175 mcg of T4 and 17 mcg of T3 to feel well. The pituitary is out cold. . . . .

On our site in "Links" is an article that I consider to be the thyroid patients' "Holy Grail": "The Imperfections of Endocrine Replacement Therapy" or something like that. I don't remember which folder I put it in.

Whoever finds it and posts the location will get a big Oink! from me. .