Re: Fw: [neuroguide] ADHD Questions

[Guest guest]

A friend sent along the following back-channel, which I thought might be of interest:

Re: [neuroguide] ADHD Questions

What would be really useful would be for some energetic young student to review all the Othmer data and write up an overall assessment, to be published in the Journal of Neurotherapy. As one of the Consulting Editors I would be happy to help and to sponsor such a paper for publication. As some may know, my opinion has been (still is, pending data) that the Othmer group, Pete van Deusen, Val Brown, and other " rebel generals " (as Barry Sterman termed them) have done irreparable harm to the reputation of neurofeedback in the scientific world. But maybe I'm wrong about the actual " cash value " of what they have done. As Barry says, show me the data. Al My reaction:Any time someone groups me with the Othmers and Val Brown, both of whom have made huge contributions to the expansion and success of the field, I am proud and humbled to be included in that company.

If, indeed, I have been somehow involved in doing " irreparable harm to the reputation of neurofeedback in the scientific world " , I am truly sorry. In all honesty, though, my guess is that a survey of 10,000 members of the " scientific world " --however that might be defined--would likely turn up around zero who had ever heard of me--and probably a pretty small group who had heard of NF!.

I'm surprised a bit to learn that Barry Sterman might even know my name--much less term me as a " rebel general " . I'm not sure how developing and making available a free assessment tool that allows more trainers actually to evaluate brain activity before making training decisions--without the cost of a QEEG--makes me a rebel. I would think the QEEG guys would be glad to have people using a brain-based approach...except I guess it means fewer people buying QEEG machines and leasing databases. As for being a " general " , perhaps they have confused me with someone else. I don't make hardware or software, don't produce special new approaches to NF. I just try to make equipment and software and education available to professionals and lay users so they can have the best possible chance of producing results using pretty mainstream approaches.

As always, it's nice to know that at least people know you are there, but if I must be categorized, I prefer Jay Gunkelman's reference from years ago: " Van Deusen is the ny Appleseed of neurofeedback. "

Al, who I don't think I ever met when I was training in Alaska, has, in the past, written that I " toured like a rock star " , by which I guess he meant that I was on the road a lot doing workshops. I hope he didn't think that I was playing to tens of thousands of people in those workshops, or that I was getting the money rockstars get.

Finally, as for the " show me the data " comment: I guess that's an easy thing for a guy who works/worked at a large university and has/had grad students all around and gets paid to publish to say. It would also be perhaps more appropriate to request of the Othmers and Val, since they do on occasion claim that their approaches get faster/better results than others. My apologies to all if I have ever said that about the TLC approach. I simply believe that the more trainers know about how the brain works--and especially how the brain they are about to train works--and the more they take into account the system around the client--the better outcomes they will get.

In any case, my apologies to Barry and Al and others who are offended by what I do. I'll keep doing it as long as there are people who find it useful. And thanks (you know who you are) for passing along the comment.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

A friend sent along the following back-channel, which I thought might be of interest:

Re: [neuroguide] ADHD Questions

What would be really useful would be for some energetic young student to review all the Othmer data and write up an overall assessment, to be published in the Journal of Neurotherapy. As one of the Consulting Editors I would be happy to help and to sponsor such a paper for publication. As some may know, my opinion has been (still is, pending data) that the Othmer group, Pete van Deusen, Val Brown, and other " rebel generals " (as Barry Sterman termed them) have done irreparable harm to the reputation of neurofeedback in the scientific world. But maybe I'm wrong about the actual " cash value " of what they have done. As Barry says, show me the data. Al My reaction:Any time someone groups me with the Othmers and Val Brown, both of whom have made huge contributions to the expansion and success of the field, I am proud and humbled to be included in that company.

If, indeed, I have been somehow involved in doing " irreparable harm to the reputation of neurofeedback in the scientific world " , I am truly sorry. In all honesty, though, my guess is that a survey of 10,000 members of the " scientific world " --however that might be defined--would likely turn up around zero who had ever heard of me--and probably a pretty small group who had heard of NF!.

I'm surprised a bit to learn that Barry Sterman might even know my name--much less term me as a " rebel general " . I'm not sure how developing and making available a free assessment tool that allows more trainers actually to evaluate brain activity before making training decisions--without the cost of a QEEG--makes me a rebel. I would think the QEEG guys would be glad to have people using a brain-based approach...except I guess it means fewer people buying QEEG machines and leasing databases. As for being a " general " , perhaps they have confused me with someone else. I don't make hardware or software, don't produce special new approaches to NF. I just try to make equipment and software and education available to professionals and lay users so they can have the best possible chance of producing results using pretty mainstream approaches.

As always, it's nice to know that at least people know you are there, but if I must be categorized, I prefer Jay Gunkelman's reference from years ago: " Van Deusen is the ny Appleseed of neurofeedback. "

Al, who I don't think I ever met when I was training in Alaska, has, in the past, written that I " toured like a rock star " , by which I guess he meant that I was on the road a lot doing workshops. I hope he didn't think that I was playing to tens of thousands of people in those workshops, or that I was getting the money rockstars get.

Finally, as for the " show me the data " comment: I guess that's an easy thing for a guy who works/worked at a large university and has/had grad students all around and gets paid to publish to say. It would also be perhaps more appropriate to request of the Othmers and Val, since they do on occasion claim that their approaches get faster/better results than others. My apologies to all if I have ever said that about the TLC approach. I simply believe that the more trainers know about how the brain works--and especially how the brain they are about to train works--and the more they take into account the system around the client--the better outcomes they will get.

In any case, my apologies to Barry and Al and others who are offended by what I do. I'll keep doing it as long as there are people who find it useful. And thanks (you know who you are) for passing along the comment.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

Ain't that funny, you are being called a General. Here in Switzerland, I

got word that in certain groups, I am called the " Neurofeedback-Pope " of

which I am still not sure, if this is a compliment or not...;-)

So the army meets religion then....Be welcome!!!

Best

Stephan Odermatt, Switzerland