Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Mark, Assuming that you are not seeing explosive, often apparently unprovoked rages, which would suggest temporal lobe epilepsy, with anger outbursts, there are several things I would usually look for: 1. Hot right side: beta and high-beta levels about 14% and 10%--often significantly higher--and often reversed L/R anywhere from F to P. 2. Anomalies at F8: this emotional regulation area may show high levels of slow, unblocked alpha or, occasionally, even beta/high-beta. 3. T4 especially quite hot. 4. Sometimes a completely shut down prefrontal area. If 1 or 2 are not present, then I'd focus first on the Temporals (assuming they are hot). The midline/cingulate would be more likely to show obsessive thought or compulsive behaviors unless it shows a differential in slow activity (indicating it is burned out). Ordinarily I would recommend trying something like the M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol to calm that area and move it into a more functional state. I would not train Fz and Oz (2-channel protocol), because you are training two polar opposite areas of the brain at the same time. Fz and Cz or Cz and Pz (or FCz and CPz) referenced to opposite ears and linked would give you a good effect on the Cingulate. If you want to increase alpha, though, why are you considering training up the beta range? Final point: rather than deciding how you are going to train based on the assessment, I would strongly recommend deciding based on a test of the hypotheses produced by the assessment according to which has the most positive effect. Pete Dear all I have a client who has some anger issues. People around him object to his loud yelling. The anger takes over and later he may have some regret although usually he feels justified. Have done a TLC assess and have decided to focus on T3 T4 and Fz Oz. I'm getting into a mental knot. I'm thinking of training Fz and Oz after training T3 T4. When it comes to FZ Oz I want to increase alpha at Oz but can't decide whether I should be training low beta 12-15 or 15-18 at FZ to active some inhibitory control and increased awareness. Suggestions appreciated. Mark -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Mark, Assuming that you are not seeing explosive, often apparently unprovoked rages, which would suggest temporal lobe epilepsy, with anger outbursts, there are several things I would usually look for: 1. Hot right side: beta and high-beta levels about 14% and 10%--often significantly higher--and often reversed L/R anywhere from F to P. 2. Anomalies at F8: this emotional regulation area may show high levels of slow, unblocked alpha or, occasionally, even beta/high-beta. 3. T4 especially quite hot. 4. Sometimes a completely shut down prefrontal area. If 1 or 2 are not present, then I'd focus first on the Temporals (assuming they are hot). The midline/cingulate would be more likely to show obsessive thought or compulsive behaviors unless it shows a differential in slow activity (indicating it is burned out). Ordinarily I would recommend trying something like the M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol to calm that area and move it into a more functional state. I would not train Fz and Oz (2-channel protocol), because you are training two polar opposite areas of the brain at the same time. Fz and Cz or Cz and Pz (or FCz and CPz) referenced to opposite ears and linked would give you a good effect on the Cingulate. If you want to increase alpha, though, why are you considering training up the beta range? Final point: rather than deciding how you are going to train based on the assessment, I would strongly recommend deciding based on a test of the hypotheses produced by the assessment according to which has the most positive effect. Pete Dear all I have a client who has some anger issues. People around him object to his loud yelling. The anger takes over and later he may have some regret although usually he feels justified. Have done a TLC assess and have decided to focus on T3 T4 and Fz Oz. I'm getting into a mental knot. I'm thinking of training Fz and Oz after training T3 T4. When it comes to FZ Oz I want to increase alpha at Oz but can't decide whether I should be training low beta 12-15 or 15-18 at FZ to active some inhibitory control and increased awareness. Suggestions appreciated. Mark -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Pete - My wife had a QEEG done, (waiting on my Brainquiry device to arrive to do a TLC assessment), and it showed a very focused hot-spot in Beta/High Beta @ F8 (+3 SD's). Is this similar to what you are taking about in #2? The Clinician we were working with just suggested we train down Beta @ F8, but I have a feeling that the training her brain needs isn't that simple. Would you suggest the M2/Fp1 SMR training listed below to help w/ " emotional liability issues " , or is there another protocol we can use until I fumble my way through doing my first TLC assessment at home? Thanks, - Noah > > Mark, > > Assuming that you are not seeing explosive, often apparently unprovoked > rages, which would suggest temporal lobe epilepsy, with anger outbursts, > there are several things I would usually look for: > > 1. Hot right side: beta and high-beta levels about 14% and 10%-- often > significantly higher--and often reversed L/R anywhere from F to P. > 2. Anomalies at F8: this emotional regulation area may show high levels of > slow, unblocked alpha or, occasionally, even beta/high-beta. > 3. T4 especially quite hot. > 4. Sometimes a completely shut down prefrontal area. > > If 1 or 2 are not present, then I'd focus first on the Temporals (assuming > they are hot). > > The midline/cingulate would be more likely to show obsessive thought or > compulsive behaviors unless it shows a differential in slow activity > (indicating it is burned out). Ordinarily I would recommend trying > something like the M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol to calm that area and move it > into a more functional state. I would not train Fz and Oz (2- channel > protocol), because you are training two polar opposite areas of the brain at > the same time. Fz and Cz or Cz and Pz (or FCz and CPz) referenced to > opposite ears and linked would give you a good effect on the Cingulate. If > you want to increase alpha, though, why are you considering training up the > beta range? > > Final point: rather than deciding how you are going to train based on the > assessment, I would strongly recommend deciding based on a test of the > hypotheses produced by the assessment according to which has the most > positive effect. > > Pete > > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Pete Re: M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol. Could you elaborate on this? This would calm down the left frontal area? or did you mean Fp2 SMR% up? I'm concerned that training left frontal SMR % up could lead to depression or is this an unnecessary concern? TLC Subjective assess provides the following Poor temper control. Midline Angry or resentful Midline I'm not sure why you counsel against training polar opposites after all we train opposite hemisperes. I thought that if assessment showed Frontal Occipital reversal then two channel training was used. Thanks for your other guidelines. Mark Re: Inhibiting anger Mark, Assuming that you are not seeing explosive, often apparently unprovoked rages, which would suggest temporal lobe epilepsy, with anger outbursts, there are several things I would usually look for: 1. Hot right side: beta and high-beta levels about 14% and 10%--often significantly higher--and often reversed L/R anywhere from F to P. 2. Anomalies at F8: this emotional regulation area may show high levels of slow, unblocked alpha or, occasionally, even beta/high-beta. 3. T4 especially quite hot. 4. Sometimes a completely shut down prefrontal area. If 1 or 2 are not present, then I'd focus first on the Temporals (assuming they are hot). The midline/cingulate would be more likely to show obsessive thought or compulsive behaviors unless it shows a differential in slow activity (indicating it is burned out). Ordinarily I would recommend trying something like the M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol to calm that area and move it into a more functional state. I would not train Fz and Oz (2-channel protocol), because you are training two polar opposite areas of the brain at the same time. Fz and Cz or Cz and Pz (or FCz and CPz) referenced to opposite ears and linked would give you a good effect on the Cingulate. If you want to increase alpha, though, why are you considering training up the beta range? Final point: rather than deciding how you are going to train based on the assessment, I would strongly recommend deciding based on a test of the hypotheses produced by the assessment according to which has the most positive effect. Pete On Jan 18, 2008 1:30 AM, Mark Baddeley <baddeleyhermes (DOT) net.au> wrote: Dear all I have a client who has some anger issues. People around him object to his loud yelling. The anger takes over and later he may have some regret although usually he feels justified. Have done a TLC assess and have decided to focus on T3 T4 and Fz Oz. I'm getting into a mental knot. I'm thinking of training Fz and Oz after training T3 T4. When it comes to FZ Oz I want to increase alpha at Oz but can't decide whether I should be training low beta 12-15 or 15-18 at FZ to active some inhibitory control and increased awareness. Suggestions appreciated. Mark -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Mark, When you train across the midline on opposite hemispheres, you are usually training the same lobe. We would expect both sides to have somewhat the same activation in most brains. Even there, I usually recommend that (outside the temporal lobes) you be careful about training both sides at the same time. When you talk about training F sites and O sites at the same time, you are talking about training areas that have completely different EEG signatures. Frontal is beta country; occipital is alpha country. Are you trying to increase alpha in the front? Increase beta in the back? Neither is probably a very good idea. M2/Fp1 is a bipolar montage that trains THROUGH the brain from right rear to left prefrontal, running through areas whre the cingulate and orbitofrontal cortex would be found. Those are both strongly related to emotional control. Training up the SMR% most likely changes the level of frequencies outside the SMR band. If the frequencies are high, SMR is likelly to bring them down toward the middle; if they are low, it is likely to move them up toward the middle. So you are not increasing SMR necessarily, you are changing the overall EEG to make SMR a more important part of it. Since neither of these sites is in the sensorimotor cortex, what you are actually doing is increasing the role of low beta. I assume that none of the other things I mentioned as related to anger outbursts appeared in the TLC. Pete Pete Re: M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol. Could you elaborate on this? This would calm down the left frontal area? or did you mean Fp2 SMR% up? I'm concerned that training left frontal SMR % up could lead to depression or is this an unnecessary concern? TLC Subjective assess provides the following Poor temper control. Midline Angry or resentful Midline I'm not sure why you counsel against training polar opposites after all we train opposite hemisperes. I thought that if assessment showed Frontal Occipital reversal then two channel training was used. .. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Mark, When you train across the midline on opposite hemispheres, you are usually training the same lobe. We would expect both sides to have somewhat the same activation in most brains. Even there, I usually recommend that (outside the temporal lobes) you be careful about training both sides at the same time. When you talk about training F sites and O sites at the same time, you are talking about training areas that have completely different EEG signatures. Frontal is beta country; occipital is alpha country. Are you trying to increase alpha in the front? Increase beta in the back? Neither is probably a very good idea. M2/Fp1 is a bipolar montage that trains THROUGH the brain from right rear to left prefrontal, running through areas whre the cingulate and orbitofrontal cortex would be found. Those are both strongly related to emotional control. Training up the SMR% most likely changes the level of frequencies outside the SMR band. If the frequencies are high, SMR is likelly to bring them down toward the middle; if they are low, it is likely to move them up toward the middle. So you are not increasing SMR necessarily, you are changing the overall EEG to make SMR a more important part of it. Since neither of these sites is in the sensorimotor cortex, what you are actually doing is increasing the role of low beta. I assume that none of the other things I mentioned as related to anger outbursts appeared in the TLC. Pete Pete Re: M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol. Could you elaborate on this? This would calm down the left frontal area? or did you mean Fp2 SMR% up? I'm concerned that training left frontal SMR % up could lead to depression or is this an unnecessary concern? TLC Subjective assess provides the following Poor temper control. Midline Angry or resentful Midline I'm not sure why you counsel against training polar opposites after all we train opposite hemisperes. I thought that if assessment showed Frontal Occipital reversal then two channel training was used. .. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Mark, When you train across the midline on opposite hemispheres, you are usually training the same lobe. We would expect both sides to have somewhat the same activation in most brains. Even there, I usually recommend that (outside the temporal lobes) you be careful about training both sides at the same time. When you talk about training F sites and O sites at the same time, you are talking about training areas that have completely different EEG signatures. Frontal is beta country; occipital is alpha country. Are you trying to increase alpha in the front? Increase beta in the back? Neither is probably a very good idea. M2/Fp1 is a bipolar montage that trains THROUGH the brain from right rear to left prefrontal, running through areas whre the cingulate and orbitofrontal cortex would be found. Those are both strongly related to emotional control. Training up the SMR% most likely changes the level of frequencies outside the SMR band. If the frequencies are high, SMR is likelly to bring them down toward the middle; if they are low, it is likely to move them up toward the middle. So you are not increasing SMR necessarily, you are changing the overall EEG to make SMR a more important part of it. Since neither of these sites is in the sensorimotor cortex, what you are actually doing is increasing the role of low beta. I assume that none of the other things I mentioned as related to anger outbursts appeared in the TLC. Pete Pete Re: M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol. Could you elaborate on this? This would calm down the left frontal area? or did you mean Fp2 SMR% up? I'm concerned that training left frontal SMR % up could lead to depression or is this an unnecessary concern? TLC Subjective assess provides the following Poor temper control. Midline Angry or resentful Midline I'm not sure why you counsel against training polar opposites after all we train opposite hemisperes. I thought that if assessment showed Frontal Occipital reversal then two channel training was used. .. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Pete Thanks that is useful. However My aim for Fz Oz two channel training was to increase appropriate beta activation frontally and increase alpha occipitally. My thinking rightly or wrongly was that to activate inhibition frontally would require either beta or SMR training at Fz and I wasn't sure which. Your point that increasing SMR % and therefore mid frequency in the EEG would raise low frequencies and lower high frequencies was clarifying re Fp1. It is also helpful in considering the overall % of low mid and high frequencies and moving EEG speed. Mark Re: Inhibiting anger Mark, When you train across the midline on opposite hemispheres, you are usually training the same lobe. We would expect both sides to have somewhat the same activation in most brains. Even there, I usually recommend that (outside the temporal lobes) you be careful about training both sides at the same time. When you talk about training F sites and O sites at the same time, you are talking about training areas that have completely different EEG signatures. Frontal is beta country; occipital is alpha country. Are you trying to increase alpha in the front? Increase beta in the back? Neither is probably a very good idea. M2/Fp1 is a bipolar montage that trains THROUGH the brain from right rear to left prefrontal, running through areas whre the cingulate and orbitofrontal cortex would be found. Those are both strongly related to emotional control. Training up the SMR% most likely changes the level of frequencies outside the SMR band. If the frequencies are high, SMR is likelly to bring them down toward the middle; if they are low, it is likely to move them up toward the middle. So you are not increasing SMR necessarily, you are changing the overall EEG to make SMR a more important part of it. Since neither of these sites is in the sensorimotor cortex, what you are actually doing is increasing the role of low beta. I assume that none of the other things I mentioned as related to anger outbursts appeared in the TLC. Pete On Jan 19, 2008 8:16 AM, Mark Baddeley <baddeleyhermes (DOT) net.au> wrote: Pete Re: M2/Fp1 SMR% up protocol. Could you elaborate on this? This would calm down the left frontal area? or did you mean Fp2 SMR% up? I'm concerned that training left frontal SMR % up could lead to depression or is this an unnecessary concern? TLC Subjective assess provides the following Poor temper control. Midline Angry or resentful Midline I'm not sure why you counsel against training polar opposites after all we train opposite hemisperes. I thought that if assessment showed Frontal Occipital reversal then two channel training was used. .. -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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