What Does High Delta Mean?

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for this reply. I agree with you, and don’t need to

see changes in the EEG to be convinced of the value of the training, but asked

the question for two reasons.

First, was I missing an obvious measurement that WOULD show

change? I was curious to know.

Second, clients do like to be reassured by graphs. I have now

included a regular behavior progress questionnaire in my practice to wean them

off just EEG graphs – but if there are numbers I could show them, I’d

like to.

Just by the way, does anyone else use facial expression as an

indicator of performance? I used Ekman a lot in my sports psych.

Tim

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Van Deusen

Sent: 27 July 2008 12:31

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: What does high Delta mean?

Tim,

If you are seeing the changes you describe in your son with

the training you are doing, I would restate your question: WHY should we

look for changes in the EEG?! What could it possibly matter?

Unless, of course, you sought out NF because you wanted to change his EEG for

some reason...

Normally, if I do something to produce a change, and the

change happens, I move on to the next issue. Certainly it's possible that

he will still have some issues you want to work on after the improved ability

to stay present stabilizes. You've been challenging the brain to shift

into a higher state of activation, and it's responding. Maybe all that's

changed is his ability to stay in that state for longer and longer periods of

time.

As I've written a number of times previously on the list,

the TLC (as I use it) is to guide us to patterns in the EEG that help explain

problems the client wishes to change. Its main goal is to give us valid

hypotheses for what kind of training is likely to produce the desired change in

performance, mood, behavior, learning, body issues not necessarily to

produce cool-looking graphs. If QEEG's pre and post often don't show any

particular change even in clients whose real-world results are gratifying, I

have no intention of demanding such a thing from the TLC.

Pete

I've

just ordered the TLC assessment tool, so am looking forward to trying it out

– mainly because I have been confused by several cases where we are

seeing behavioural changes without EEG changes. My son is a case in point. He

is/was a bit of a daydreamy child, who works slowly, and has to be reminded to

do things (like get ready for soccer or brush his teeth) frequently. He has

received about 7 hours of training at Cz and C3 (single monopolar), to elevate

11-13 and 13-16, and squash 3-7 and 8-10.

We

have behavioural changes at home and at school which are almost difficult to

believe (and my favourite change – his facial expression is consistently

more alert) … but his theta/beta ratio remains the same, and amplitudes

of theta have actually increased.

Where

should I look for the EEG change? Have I been training hemisphere asymmetry

without planning to?

..

Error! Filename not specified.

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for this reply. I agree with you, and don’t need to

see changes in the EEG to be convinced of the value of the training, but asked

the question for two reasons.

First, was I missing an obvious measurement that WOULD show

change? I was curious to know.

Second, clients do like to be reassured by graphs. I have now

included a regular behavior progress questionnaire in my practice to wean them

off just EEG graphs – but if there are numbers I could show them, I’d

like to.

Just by the way, does anyone else use facial expression as an

indicator of performance? I used Ekman a lot in my sports psych.

Tim

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Van Deusen

Sent: 27 July 2008 12:31

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: What does high Delta mean?

Tim,

If you are seeing the changes you describe in your son with

the training you are doing, I would restate your question: WHY should we

look for changes in the EEG?! What could it possibly matter?

Unless, of course, you sought out NF because you wanted to change his EEG for

some reason...

Normally, if I do something to produce a change, and the

change happens, I move on to the next issue. Certainly it's possible that

he will still have some issues you want to work on after the improved ability

to stay present stabilizes. You've been challenging the brain to shift

into a higher state of activation, and it's responding. Maybe all that's

changed is his ability to stay in that state for longer and longer periods of

time.

As I've written a number of times previously on the list,

the TLC (as I use it) is to guide us to patterns in the EEG that help explain

problems the client wishes to change. Its main goal is to give us valid

hypotheses for what kind of training is likely to produce the desired change in

performance, mood, behavior, learning, body issues not necessarily to

produce cool-looking graphs. If QEEG's pre and post often don't show any

particular change even in clients whose real-world results are gratifying, I

have no intention of demanding such a thing from the TLC.

Pete

I've

just ordered the TLC assessment tool, so am looking forward to trying it out

– mainly because I have been confused by several cases where we are

seeing behavioural changes without EEG changes. My son is a case in point. He

is/was a bit of a daydreamy child, who works slowly, and has to be reminded to

do things (like get ready for soccer or brush his teeth) frequently. He has

received about 7 hours of training at Cz and C3 (single monopolar), to elevate

11-13 and 13-16, and squash 3-7 and 8-10.

We

have behavioural changes at home and at school which are almost difficult to

believe (and my favourite change – his facial expression is consistently

more alert) … but his theta/beta ratio remains the same, and amplitudes

of theta have actually increased.

Where

should I look for the EEG change? Have I been training hemisphere asymmetry

without planning to?

..

Error! Filename not specified.

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Gentlepeople,

According to the research done at the research center I ran while working for

Lexicor, the answer is that it all depends upon where the high amplitude Delta

is located in the brain, the frequency of the Delta and the Delta coherence

between any two locations. In my opinion and experience anytime inhibiting Delta

is not working well, the problem is hyper coherent Delta. Find the locations

involved and break up the hyper coherence and the Delta " problem " is quickly

resolved.

GENERALLY

Delta in the 0-2 Hz range indicates that part of the brain is in a state of deep

sleep. At times this is not good. <g> Delta in the range of 2-5 Hz indicates

drowsiness and may be the result of the training being done. Sometimes a change

of diet does more to alleviate this problem than biofeedback. The culprit is

usually sugar, processed flour and cereals or the drinking water.

Theta in the 3-6 Hz range is more indicative of dissociation. In my experience

abused children and women tend to have this low Theta that is difficult to

differentiate from high Delta. If the client with high amplitude Delta in the

3-6 Hz range is alert and attentive, this is a good indication of low frequency

Theta rather than high frequency Delta.

COHERENCE

As a rule, hyper coherent Delta is indicative of a closed head trauma while hypo

coherent Delta usually accompanies learning disorders. Break up the coherence by

training in the opposite direction for five minute intervals using an A - B -

.... - A format of 1, 3, 5 or 7 five minute mini sessions.

Train hyper C clients to decrease coherence and hypo C clients to increase

coherence for five minutes or until the client tires of the process. Change the

direction of the training. Thus you switch hyper C clients to increase and hypo

C clients to decrease coherence for the next five minutes.

Repeat this process but always end by training in the same direction as your

first mini session training.

AMPLITUDE

As a rule general, evenly distributed, high amplitude Delta is indicative of

slow brain maturation and training to decrease Delta amplitude usually proved

beneficial. Almost any location will work but FZ, CZ and PZ seem to work better

most of the time. Training to increase Alpha amplitude at PZ eyes closed also

proved to be beneficial.

Temporal high amplitude Delta in the 0-2 Hz range usually accompanies a brain

that is not very alert. Temporal high frequency high amplitude Delta in the 2-4

Hz range is an indication of an intuitive mind. This can be confirmed with high

amplitude 100 Hz on either the right or both temporal lobes. (Training 100 Hz to

increase intuition did not work.)

Frontal high amplitude Delta usually accompanies low levels of concentration,

focus, attention and awareness. The lower the frequency of the Delta the more

difficult to resolve these issues. Obsessive behaviors tend to manifest more

with lower frequency frontal Delta. Training to decrease frontal Delta usually

proves beneficial. I had good luck by training to decrease frontal Delta (0-3

Hz) while increasing parietal Alpha (10-14 Hz) either concurrently or following

the Delta work.

I never did much work with high amplitude central or parietal Delta but I did

observe that training to increase parietal Alpha tended to decrease parietal

Delta and that excessive central Delta tended to decrease while the client was

working to decrease frontal Delta.

Peace,

PS: I closed my clinic in 2002 and haven't done any clinical work since then. So

I may not be current with my thinking.

[Guest guest]

For home trainers, or pros who wish to learn more about this, Suzanne has made an excellent DVD which combines information of what neurodevelopmental repatterning is and how it works--and contains demonstrations with explanations of the actual exercises that can be done at home. You can find it at http://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html .

On several occasions I've worked with Suzanne to use the TLC to demonstrate pre and post patterns with the exercise program between the measurements. More importantly, as I always say, the real-world effects are what we really care about producing, and the exercise program does lead the brain through developmental movements that it may have missed at the appropriate developmental stages--but which are still effective, given the brain's inherent plasticity, even years after they " should " have occurred.

Pete

Suzanne,You wrote: " I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most

of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF. " Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I

think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very

unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

For home trainers, or pros who wish to learn more about this, Suzanne has made an excellent DVD which combines information of what neurodevelopmental repatterning is and how it works--and contains demonstrations with explanations of the actual exercises that can be done at home. You can find it at http://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html .

On several occasions I've worked with Suzanne to use the TLC to demonstrate pre and post patterns with the exercise program between the measurements. More importantly, as I always say, the real-world effects are what we really care about producing, and the exercise program does lead the brain through developmental movements that it may have missed at the appropriate developmental stages--but which are still effective, given the brain's inherent plasticity, even years after they " should " have occurred.

Pete

Suzanne,You wrote: " I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most

of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF. " Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I

think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very

unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Rene,I am not using HANDLE. For the past 15 years I have been using an approach from Dr Temple Fay, a neurologist, and kept learning from other professionals. This approach uses movements that the baby does from the womb and mainly during the first year of his life. These movements are based on "primitive reflexes" that need to be integrated in the SNS in order to provide better functions leading to efficient learning and attention span. The movements activate the growth of the myeline that wraps around the axons allowing the nervous influx to increase in speed. It is a bottom-up approach, from the brain stem to frontal cortex (of course the influx circulates back and forth).Yes, I the use neurodevelopment first, especially with children. From my perspective the neurofeedback training has its place to acquire self-regulation and I use it after neurodevelopment program (when parents request). However, the changes are so important with the neurodevelopment that when I follow with the neurofeedback training, it is for a short period of time. I see the NF as a second step of the process. Neurofeedback works more from the cortex down. I prefer to work at the brain stem up. I just published a DVD "Neurodevelopment Through Movements" that summarizes what I have found the most helpful in my practice for most of the children I have worked with. I tried to make it as "palatable" as possible for parents who want to do something at home but have limited financial resources. I do a longer program at my clinic. The DVD is 1 hour and 13 min. long with 3 parts. First half-hour explains the neurology involved in this approach and gives results from different psychometric tests and qEEG before and after 80 sessions. Then a 6 min segment gives a demonstration of the 12 movements in sequence to give a good idea of what it will look like when the parent masters well the program with the child. Fo the next half-hour, I describe in details how to do each movement. The program can take you from 12 minutes to half and hour per day. The DVD can be ordered from us and is also on sale on the brain-trainer web site. Pete saw it and was impressed. Don't hesitate to ask questions. I love to talk about. Sincerely,Suzanne DayNeuropsychologist (Québec and Alberta)Psychological Associate (Ontario)suzanne.day@...Ph. and F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jul 29, 2008, at 11:59 AM, renekay97213 wrote:Suzanne,You wrote: "I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF."Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay> > What is high and what is low, in terms of microvolts, remains a > > puzzle to me, especially without a Q. Hopefully, however, at least > > one can make a educated guess. I realize that there are lots of > > variables that impact amplitudes (e.g., sensor location, time of day > > etc., etc.). In ADHD, thanks to to the work of Monastra et al., > > there are at least some age-based norms to assist in interpretation > > of data.> >> > If, for example, at Cz and A1/A2, you have a 45 year-old adult with > > a delta amplitude of 13 uV, theta of 10 uV, alpha of 8 uv, low beta > > of 5 uV, beta of 5, and hi beta of 10 uV, WHAT SORT OF HYPOTHESES OR > > POSSIBLE MEANINGS WOULD YOU develop?> >> > .> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@...> > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc.> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Rene,I am not using HANDLE. For the past 15 years I have been using an approach from Dr Temple Fay, a neurologist, and kept learning from other professionals. This approach uses movements that the baby does from the womb and mainly during the first year of his life. These movements are based on "primitive reflexes" that need to be integrated in the SNS in order to provide better functions leading to efficient learning and attention span. The movements activate the growth of the myeline that wraps around the axons allowing the nervous influx to increase in speed. It is a bottom-up approach, from the brain stem to frontal cortex (of course the influx circulates back and forth).Yes, I the use neurodevelopment first, especially with children. From my perspective the neurofeedback training has its place to acquire self-regulation and I use it after neurodevelopment program (when parents request). However, the changes are so important with the neurodevelopment that when I follow with the neurofeedback training, it is for a short period of time. I see the NF as a second step of the process. Neurofeedback works more from the cortex down. I prefer to work at the brain stem up. I just published a DVD "Neurodevelopment Through Movements" that summarizes what I have found the most helpful in my practice for most of the children I have worked with. I tried to make it as "palatable" as possible for parents who want to do something at home but have limited financial resources. I do a longer program at my clinic. The DVD is 1 hour and 13 min. long with 3 parts. First half-hour explains the neurology involved in this approach and gives results from different psychometric tests and qEEG before and after 80 sessions. Then a 6 min segment gives a demonstration of the 12 movements in sequence to give a good idea of what it will look like when the parent masters well the program with the child. Fo the next half-hour, I describe in details how to do each movement. The program can take you from 12 minutes to half and hour per day. The DVD can be ordered from us and is also on sale on the brain-trainer web site. Pete saw it and was impressed. Don't hesitate to ask questions. I love to talk about. Sincerely,Suzanne DayNeuropsychologist (Québec and Alberta)Psychological Associate (Ontario)suzanne.day@...Ph. and F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jul 29, 2008, at 11:59 AM, renekay97213 wrote:Suzanne,You wrote: "I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF."Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay> > What is high and what is low, in terms of microvolts, remains a > > puzzle to me, especially without a Q. Hopefully, however, at least > > one can make a educated guess. I realize that there are lots of > > variables that impact amplitudes (e.g., sensor location, time of day > > etc., etc.). In ADHD, thanks to to the work of Monastra et al., > > there are at least some age-based norms to assist in interpretation > > of data.> >> > If, for example, at Cz and A1/A2, you have a 45 year-old adult with > > a delta amplitude of 13 uV, theta of 10 uV, alpha of 8 uv, low beta > > of 5 uV, beta of 5, and hi beta of 10 uV, WHAT SORT OF HYPOTHESES OR > > POSSIBLE MEANINGS WOULD YOU develop?> >> > .> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@...> > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc.> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Pete, Thank you for the support. Yes, it is giving the brain a "second chance". We are using movements that are designed in the brain of all babies. However, for different reasons some "inner clocks" don't tick efficiently or because of the daily use apparatus like the"Jolly-Jumper", saucer..... the baby skips the steps while the body keeps growing and the foundation of the organization of the Central Nervous System is weak under an appearance of "normality" (oops I realize that I used SNS in the other post - which is the French way for the CNS!).The improvements reported by the parents are global, from spelling to social abilities to sport abilities.I can keep talking about it... Again I am so thankful for the TLC data that allow me to continue my study at understanding why these movements are so powerful. However, it is lonely as few people do that type of research.I keep on talking...Sincerely,Suzanne DayNeuropsychologist (Québec and Alberta)Psychological Associate (Ontario)suzanne.day@...Ph. and F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jul 29, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Van Deusen wrote:For home trainers, or pros who wish to learn more about this, Suzanne has made an excellent DVD which combines information of what neurodevelopmental repatterning is and how it works--and contains demonstrations with explanations of the actual exercises that can be done at home. You can find it athttp://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html'>http://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html . On several occasions I've worked with Suzanne to use the TLC to demonstrate pre and post patterns with the exercise program between the measurements. More importantly, as I always say, the real-world effects are what we really care about producing, and the exercise program does lead the brain through developmental movements that it may have missed at the appropriate developmental stages--but which are still effective, given the brain's inherent plasticity, even years after they "should" have occurred. PeteOn Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:59 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:Suzanne,You wrote: "I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF."Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete, Thank you for the support. Yes, it is giving the brain a "second chance". We are using movements that are designed in the brain of all babies. However, for different reasons some "inner clocks" don't tick efficiently or because of the daily use apparatus like the"Jolly-Jumper", saucer..... the baby skips the steps while the body keeps growing and the foundation of the organization of the Central Nervous System is weak under an appearance of "normality" (oops I realize that I used SNS in the other post - which is the French way for the CNS!).The improvements reported by the parents are global, from spelling to social abilities to sport abilities.I can keep talking about it... Again I am so thankful for the TLC data that allow me to continue my study at understanding why these movements are so powerful. However, it is lonely as few people do that type of research.I keep on talking...Sincerely,Suzanne DayNeuropsychologist (Québec and Alberta)Psychological Associate (Ontario)suzanne.day@...Ph. and F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jul 29, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Van Deusen wrote:For home trainers, or pros who wish to learn more about this, Suzanne has made an excellent DVD which combines information of what neurodevelopmental repatterning is and how it works--and contains demonstrations with explanations of the actual exercises that can be done at home. You can find it athttp://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html'>http://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html . On several occasions I've worked with Suzanne to use the TLC to demonstrate pre and post patterns with the exercise program between the measurements. More importantly, as I always say, the real-world effects are what we really care about producing, and the exercise program does lead the brain through developmental movements that it may have missed at the appropriate developmental stages--but which are still effective, given the brain's inherent plasticity, even years after they "should" have occurred. PeteOn Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:59 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:Suzanne,You wrote: "I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF."Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete, Thank you for the support. Yes, it is giving the brain a "second chance". We are using movements that are designed in the brain of all babies. However, for different reasons some "inner clocks" don't tick efficiently or because of the daily use apparatus like the"Jolly-Jumper", saucer..... the baby skips the steps while the body keeps growing and the foundation of the organization of the Central Nervous System is weak under an appearance of "normality" (oops I realize that I used SNS in the other post - which is the French way for the CNS!).The improvements reported by the parents are global, from spelling to social abilities to sport abilities.I can keep talking about it... Again I am so thankful for the TLC data that allow me to continue my study at understanding why these movements are so powerful. However, it is lonely as few people do that type of research.I keep on talking...Sincerely,Suzanne DayNeuropsychologist (Québec and Alberta)Psychological Associate (Ontario)suzanne.day@...Ph. and F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jul 29, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Van Deusen wrote:For home trainers, or pros who wish to learn more about this, Suzanne has made an excellent DVD which combines information of what neurodevelopmental repatterning is and how it works--and contains demonstrations with explanations of the actual exercises that can be done at home. You can find it athttp://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html'>http://www.brain-trainer.com/software/adjunctproduct.html . On several occasions I've worked with Suzanne to use the TLC to demonstrate pre and post patterns with the exercise program between the measurements. More importantly, as I always say, the real-world effects are what we really care about producing, and the exercise program does lead the brain through developmental movements that it may have missed at the appropriate developmental stages--but which are still effective, given the brain's inherent plasticity, even years after they "should" have occurred. PeteOn Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:59 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:Suzanne,You wrote: "I use a serie of neurodevelopmental movements to re-activate the > primitive reflexes from the brain stem. I use this approach before I > use neurofeedback training with children with high delta and most of > the time the changes are so significant that I do not use the NF."Have you ever found it the other way around---that kids who do NF don't need the neurodevelopmental movements? My son did Handle first and has been doing Nf for 18 months now. I think both of them worked together well. But, I know adoptive families who are evaluating whether or not to do neuro reorg or nf. Some have ventured to do both.It's wonderful that you have training in both therapies---very unusual from what I have seen. I would appreciate your perspective on this.Rene Kay.-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.