Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle Cramps and Dehydration?

[Guest guest]

I don't know about studies but I bet if you talk to power lifters who have used

creatine at one time or another they have experienced extreme muscle cramps

while taking creatine. I don't know who these studies were done on but I'm

going to tell you that I have never had muscle cramps while not taking creatine

and I have been literally brought to my knees while taking it. I can think of

three individual meets where I was doing something like tying my shoes between

lifts when muscle cramps so severe in pain took my breath away and I'm no

weakling when it comes to pain.

Of late I have used the esterfied creatine and not experienced this but I'm here

to tell you that creatine does cause muscle cramps when coupled with

dehydration. Would that keep me from using creatine, heck no. Muscle cramps to

my knowledge are not serious and they are usually short in duration so big deal.

Just my thoughts and experience.

Eddie White

Blue Springs, Mo.

[Guest guest]

Key word:

DEHYDRATION

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh,PA.

Re:Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle Cramps

and Dehydration?

I don't know about studies but I bet if you talk to power lifters who have used

creatine at one time or another they have experienced extreme muscle cramps

while taking creatine. I don't know who these studies were done on but I'm going

to tell you that I have never had muscle cramps while not taking creatine and I

have been literally brought to my knees while taking it. I can think of three

individual meets where I was doing something like tying my shoes between lifts

when muscle cramps so severe in pain took my breath away and I'm no weakling

when it comes to pain.

Of late I have used the esterfied creatine and not experienced this but I'm here

to tell you that creatine does cause muscle cramps when coupled with

dehydration. Would that keep me from using creatine, heck no. Muscle cramps to

my knowledge are not serious and they are usually short in duration so big deal.

Just my thoughts and experience.

Eddie White

Blue Springs, Mo.

[Guest guest]

Key word:

DEHYDRATION

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh,PA.

Re:Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle Cramps

and Dehydration?

I don't know about studies but I bet if you talk to power lifters who have used

creatine at one time or another they have experienced extreme muscle cramps

while taking creatine. I don't know who these studies were done on but I'm going

to tell you that I have never had muscle cramps while not taking creatine and I

have been literally brought to my knees while taking it. I can think of three

individual meets where I was doing something like tying my shoes between lifts

when muscle cramps so severe in pain took my breath away and I'm no weakling

when it comes to pain.

Of late I have used the esterfied creatine and not experienced this but I'm here

to tell you that creatine does cause muscle cramps when coupled with

dehydration. Would that keep me from using creatine, heck no. Muscle cramps to

my knowledge are not serious and they are usually short in duration so big deal.

Just my thoughts and experience.

Eddie White

Blue Springs, Mo.

[Guest guest]

I was speaking last week to a recently retired NHL veteran who stated that the

only time he ever had cramping issues in his pro hockey career was when he was

on creatine supplementation.

Mark

Camillus, NY USA

[Guest guest]

I was speaking last week to a recently retired NHL veteran who stated that the

only time he ever had cramping issues in his pro hockey career was when he was

on creatine supplementation.

Mark

Camillus, NY USA

[Guest guest]

Eddie White wrote:

I don't know about studies but I bet if you talk to power lifters who have

used creatine at one time or another they have experienced extreme muscle

cramps while taking creatine. I don't know who these studies were done on

but I'm going to tell you that I have never had muscle cramps while not

taking creatine and I have been literally brought to my knees while taking

it. I can think of three individual meets where I was doing something like

tying my shoes between lifts when muscle cramps so severe in pain took my

breath away and I'm no weakling when it comes to pain.

Casler writes:

Hi Eddie,

My experience has been the same. That is not to say I am negative on the

use of Creatine, since I highly recommend and use it.

But, I get occasional (and some are mind blowing) cramps in my hands,

calves, hams, various abs, intercostals, Platysma Sternocleido, and other

neck muscles that are 100% related to when, and or, if I use creatine.

While this may be due to dehydration, it is not due to not drinking fluids,

for I drink at least a gallon of fluids daily. In fact, I drink at least

32oz of water and lemon juice just before going to bed each night (just call

me IRON BLADDER) thinking that it might have a longer hydrating window.

I think that everyone knows that creatine " requires " more water, due to its

" cellular hydrating effects " . I might suspect that some, and I guess I am

one, may not have the body chemistry (cellular pump mechanism) to

osmotically add enough fluid to each cell as the intercellular concentration

requires. Either that or there may be some type of trigger mechanism, but

to be sure, I get cramps (which I have never had in over 45 years) that

directly correspond to my use of, or not using creatine, and training a

bodypart. That is, it generally happens post training 1-24 hours.

There also may be an additional secondary cause, such as lack of electrolyte

balance or such, but again, I take supplements that have the correct sodium,

potassium, calcium etc values.

And again, this is not a word against the use of creatine, since I still use

it regularly, and in rather large amounts, but when I cycle off for a few

days, the cramps are totally non-existent.

Since Eddie, you and I are " oldsters " it may have something to do with the

cells losing the ability to hydrate beyond a certain point (since

dehydration is one of the elements of cellular aging) and even upping the

fluid intake will not up the cellular fluid uptake, while the creatine

uptake (and subsequent concentration) has increased within the cell.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

Thanks for bringing that up. In the ten + years that I have used creatine

on an " on/off " basis for bodybuilding, I've never had a problem with muscle

cramping, nor have any others I've known. My educated guess would tell me

that there's got to be something else behind it: a mineral imbalance or

deficiency.

Thanks for touching on that.

Neisler

Encinitas, CA

======================================

From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]

On Behalf Of W.G. 'Bill'

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:32 AM

To: Supertraining

Subject: Re: Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle

Cramps and Dehydration?

,

First, it's Coach or Bill. Second, it would really be

refreshing if you cited just one scientific study to support your

thesis, rather than your insistence on voicing your opinion or some

random anecdotal evidence. The research is out there, read it.

After your endless anti-supplement screeds I presented you with a post

with over 100 citations from the scientific literature supporting the

efficacy of using supplements to meet or optimize a variety of

nutritional needs of athletes. Never saw a single word from you, much

less a single scientific citation, in rebuttal. And here you are

again, holding forth with nothing but your opinion and random

anecdotal evidence, most of which is completely irrelevant.

You insisted that Powerlifting was beneficial to Weightlifting. I

presented you with direct quotations from three authorities, Roman,

Verkoshansky and Siff, which completely refuted your opinion. All I

got from you was some nameless woman and the name of some guy,

appropriately named " Bull " something that I couldn't find in Google.

Please spend a little time doing some research and provide some

citations to support your positions. Were Professor Siff still with us

he would not only expect it, he'd demand it.

Here's what I'm talking about:

The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation and Intermittent

Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid Environment

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research Aug 2007

" Therefore,increases in total body water resulting from Cr

supplementation may prove to be beneficial for maintaining hydration

status and core tempterature in athletes training or competing in the

heat. "

" Body weight increases have been determined to be related to increases

in total body water, more specifically, intramuscular water. " (The

authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

- p 655

Does it makes sense that greater intramuscular water would cause

cramps? Considering the extreme complexity of human biochemistry is it

not possible that there may be other explanations for cramping? How is

it that thousands and thousands of athletes use a variety of different

manufacturer's creatines and don't experience cramps or any other

problems? How is it that meta studiies of the hundreds of studies on

creatine conclude the only side effect is " You get bigger. " ?

What is it that's really causing these cramps? They may simply be some

of the very rare people who can't do creatine and not cramp. But do

you know with absolute certainty that you've covered every possible

variable to arrive at that conclusion? Hell no. Not even close.

Practical Applicication

" Our results suggest that Cr loading has no significant effect on core

temperature response and does not alter fluid balance or impair

sweating during 30 minutes of low-intensity warm-up or during a brief,

repeat sprint protocol in a hot, humid environment. As such, athletes

that use Cr as an ergogenic aid and perform high-intensity exercise

under stressful heated conditions may not be at risk of significant

negative changes in thermoregulatory mechanisms during exercise in the

heat as has been previously suggested (The authors cite only one study

to support this statement).

This is called a citation from the literature. I'd like to see some

from you. Then we can study each others citations and rationally

discuss the author's results and conclusions and what they mean. Your posts

often can not withstand logical scrutiny. They're usually entirely anecdotal

and ignore the possibility of other explanations. Please, leave out the

irrelevancies, do some homework, engage in

some deductive reasoning, and give us some reasonable science based

evidence to support your positions.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

=============================

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

Thanks for bringing that up. In the ten + years that I have used creatine

on an " on/off " basis for bodybuilding, I've never had a problem with muscle

cramping, nor have any others I've known. My educated guess would tell me

that there's got to be something else behind it: a mineral imbalance or

deficiency.

Thanks for touching on that.

Neisler

Encinitas, CA

======================================

From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]

On Behalf Of W.G. 'Bill'

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:32 AM

To: Supertraining

Subject: Re: Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle

Cramps and Dehydration?

,

First, it's Coach or Bill. Second, it would really be

refreshing if you cited just one scientific study to support your

thesis, rather than your insistence on voicing your opinion or some

random anecdotal evidence. The research is out there, read it.

After your endless anti-supplement screeds I presented you with a post

with over 100 citations from the scientific literature supporting the

efficacy of using supplements to meet or optimize a variety of

nutritional needs of athletes. Never saw a single word from you, much

less a single scientific citation, in rebuttal. And here you are

again, holding forth with nothing but your opinion and random

anecdotal evidence, most of which is completely irrelevant.

You insisted that Powerlifting was beneficial to Weightlifting. I

presented you with direct quotations from three authorities, Roman,

Verkoshansky and Siff, which completely refuted your opinion. All I

got from you was some nameless woman and the name of some guy,

appropriately named " Bull " something that I couldn't find in Google.

Please spend a little time doing some research and provide some

citations to support your positions. Were Professor Siff still with us

he would not only expect it, he'd demand it.

Here's what I'm talking about:

The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation and Intermittent

Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid Environment

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research Aug 2007

" Therefore,increases in total body water resulting from Cr

supplementation may prove to be beneficial for maintaining hydration

status and core tempterature in athletes training or competing in the

heat. "

" Body weight increases have been determined to be related to increases

in total body water, more specifically, intramuscular water. " (The

authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

- p 655

Does it makes sense that greater intramuscular water would cause

cramps? Considering the extreme complexity of human biochemistry is it

not possible that there may be other explanations for cramping? How is

it that thousands and thousands of athletes use a variety of different

manufacturer's creatines and don't experience cramps or any other

problems? How is it that meta studiies of the hundreds of studies on

creatine conclude the only side effect is " You get bigger. " ?

What is it that's really causing these cramps? They may simply be some

of the very rare people who can't do creatine and not cramp. But do

you know with absolute certainty that you've covered every possible

variable to arrive at that conclusion? Hell no. Not even close.

Practical Applicication

" Our results suggest that Cr loading has no significant effect on core

temperature response and does not alter fluid balance or impair

sweating during 30 minutes of low-intensity warm-up or during a brief,

repeat sprint protocol in a hot, humid environment. As such, athletes

that use Cr as an ergogenic aid and perform high-intensity exercise

under stressful heated conditions may not be at risk of significant

negative changes in thermoregulatory mechanisms during exercise in the

heat as has been previously suggested (The authors cite only one study

to support this statement).

This is called a citation from the literature. I'd like to see some

from you. Then we can study each others citations and rationally

discuss the author's results and conclusions and what they mean. Your posts

often can not withstand logical scrutiny. They're usually entirely anecdotal

and ignore the possibility of other explanations. Please, leave out the

irrelevancies, do some homework, engage in

some deductive reasoning, and give us some reasonable science based

evidence to support your positions.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

=============================

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

Thanks for bringing that up. In the ten + years that I have used creatine

on an " on/off " basis for bodybuilding, I've never had a problem with muscle

cramping, nor have any others I've known. My educated guess would tell me

that there's got to be something else behind it: a mineral imbalance or

deficiency.

Thanks for touching on that.

Neisler

Encinitas, CA

======================================

From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]

On Behalf Of W.G. 'Bill'

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:32 AM

To: Supertraining

Subject: Re: Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle

Cramps and Dehydration?

,

First, it's Coach or Bill. Second, it would really be

refreshing if you cited just one scientific study to support your

thesis, rather than your insistence on voicing your opinion or some

random anecdotal evidence. The research is out there, read it.

After your endless anti-supplement screeds I presented you with a post

with over 100 citations from the scientific literature supporting the

efficacy of using supplements to meet or optimize a variety of

nutritional needs of athletes. Never saw a single word from you, much

less a single scientific citation, in rebuttal. And here you are

again, holding forth with nothing but your opinion and random

anecdotal evidence, most of which is completely irrelevant.

You insisted that Powerlifting was beneficial to Weightlifting. I

presented you with direct quotations from three authorities, Roman,

Verkoshansky and Siff, which completely refuted your opinion. All I

got from you was some nameless woman and the name of some guy,

appropriately named " Bull " something that I couldn't find in Google.

Please spend a little time doing some research and provide some

citations to support your positions. Were Professor Siff still with us

he would not only expect it, he'd demand it.

Here's what I'm talking about:

The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation and Intermittent

Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid Environment

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research Aug 2007

" Therefore,increases in total body water resulting from Cr

supplementation may prove to be beneficial for maintaining hydration

status and core tempterature in athletes training or competing in the

heat. "

" Body weight increases have been determined to be related to increases

in total body water, more specifically, intramuscular water. " (The

authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

- p 655

Does it makes sense that greater intramuscular water would cause

cramps? Considering the extreme complexity of human biochemistry is it

not possible that there may be other explanations for cramping? How is

it that thousands and thousands of athletes use a variety of different

manufacturer's creatines and don't experience cramps or any other

problems? How is it that meta studiies of the hundreds of studies on

creatine conclude the only side effect is " You get bigger. " ?

What is it that's really causing these cramps? They may simply be some

of the very rare people who can't do creatine and not cramp. But do

you know with absolute certainty that you've covered every possible

variable to arrive at that conclusion? Hell no. Not even close.

Practical Applicication

" Our results suggest that Cr loading has no significant effect on core

temperature response and does not alter fluid balance or impair

sweating during 30 minutes of low-intensity warm-up or during a brief,

repeat sprint protocol in a hot, humid environment. As such, athletes

that use Cr as an ergogenic aid and perform high-intensity exercise

under stressful heated conditions may not be at risk of significant

negative changes in thermoregulatory mechanisms during exercise in the

heat as has been previously suggested (The authors cite only one study

to support this statement).

This is called a citation from the literature. I'd like to see some

from you. Then we can study each others citations and rationally

discuss the author's results and conclusions and what they mean. Your posts

often can not withstand logical scrutiny. They're usually entirely anecdotal

and ignore the possibility of other explanations. Please, leave out the

irrelevancies, do some homework, engage in

some deductive reasoning, and give us some reasonable science based

evidence to support your positions.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

=============================

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

In your post you ask the question " Does it makes sense that greater

intramuscular water would cause

cramps? "

I think it may if you look at the post by Carruthers entitled

" Dehydration/Electrolyte

Depletion and Cramps " in which he relates a web site that discusses the lack

of scientific evidence for the electrolyte depletion model .

I have tried to extract the relevant bits but it is quite long still so I

have highlighted the most outstanding sentences in caps – not to shout but

to make noticable. Following this I have quoted from your excerpts from you

creatine study.

************

The electrolyte depletion model of muscle cramps

http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/search/label/muscle%20cramps

…..Professor Schwellnus is hands down the one researcher who has

consistently moved this area forward. As a sports physician he has

treated many a runner with cramps, and his curiosity and what he was

seeing in the medical tents lead him to challenge this paradigm that

dehydration and electrolyte problems cause cramps. What he found was

that this model was based on not one shred of scientific data, and

instead relied heavily on anecdotal evidence. Since 1997 he has

published some of the only evidence available that has even attempted

to determine what actually is causing the cramps and who is prone to

this condition.

In a 2004 study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine,

Professor Schwellnus and his colleagues examined runners before and

after the Two Oceans 56 km marathon in Cape Town.

WHAT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY FROM THIS STUDY WAS THAT THE CRAMPERS HAD AN

AVERAGE LOSS OF BODY WEIGHT OF 2.9%, COMPARED TO 3.6% FOR THE NON-

CRAMPING CONTROLS. IN OTHERWORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT CRAMP LOST

MORE WEIGHT THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DID. It goes further than this,

because Schwellnus et al were able to measure the change in plasma

volume as well - a more direct measure for what is happening to

fluids. HERE, THEY FOUND THAT THE CRAMPERS ACTUALLY GAINED A SMALL

AMOUNT OF 0.2% DURING THE RACE. THE NON-CRAMPING CONTROL SUBJECTS

LOST 0.7%. So the sum effect of this data is that it suggests very

strongly that cramping is not associated with dehydration, or with

lower serum electrolyte levels, which is what we have had drilled

into us for many years!

The next year they published a study in Medicine and Science in

Sports and Exercise, and instead of runners it was Ironman

triathletes…….

So the two groups were essentially the same in that the crampers did

not spend longer in the course or lose more weight (a crude measure

of dehydration). Yet again the crampers and the controls looked

remarkably similar on paper---except as in the 2004 study the

crampers again had a statistically SIGNIFICANT LOWER SODIUM

concentration, and, we will repeat this, THAT SUGGESTS THEY WERE MORE

HYDRATED COMPARED TO THE CONTROLS. . .YET THEY WERE CRAMPING....

**************

You then quote this from the study of creatine

**************

The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation and Intermittent

Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid Environment

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research Aug 2007

" Therefore,increases in total body water resulting from Cr

supplementation may prove to be beneficial for maintaining hydration

status and core tempterature in athletes training or competing in the

heat. "

" BODY WEIGHT INCREASES HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE RELATED TO INCREASES

IN TOTAL BODY WATER, MORE SPECIFICALLY, INTRAMUSCULAR WATER. " (The

authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

- p 655

**********

So you asked - does it makes sense that greater intramuscular water would

cause

cramps? Well given the discussion above I will ask a question which on

reflection was badly asked in my previous post. Is not the increased

intramuscular water resulting in a situation of hyponatremia localised in

the muscle causing cramps. Is the author of the creatine paper not making a

fundamentally incorrect assumption that increased hydration is better than

either controlled balanced hydration or minor losses in water as this causes

an increase in mineral concentration which may be beneficial. Is the

creatine possibly causing the cramps through increased hydration?

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johanesburg

South Africa

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

In your post you ask the question " Does it makes sense that greater

intramuscular water would cause

cramps? "

I think it may if you look at the post by Carruthers entitled

" Dehydration/Electrolyte

Depletion and Cramps " in which he relates a web site that discusses the lack

of scientific evidence for the electrolyte depletion model .

I have tried to extract the relevant bits but it is quite long still so I

have highlighted the most outstanding sentences in caps – not to shout but

to make noticable. Following this I have quoted from your excerpts from you

creatine study.

************

The electrolyte depletion model of muscle cramps

http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/search/label/muscle%20cramps

…..Professor Schwellnus is hands down the one researcher who has

consistently moved this area forward. As a sports physician he has

treated many a runner with cramps, and his curiosity and what he was

seeing in the medical tents lead him to challenge this paradigm that

dehydration and electrolyte problems cause cramps. What he found was

that this model was based on not one shred of scientific data, and

instead relied heavily on anecdotal evidence. Since 1997 he has

published some of the only evidence available that has even attempted

to determine what actually is causing the cramps and who is prone to

this condition.

In a 2004 study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine,

Professor Schwellnus and his colleagues examined runners before and

after the Two Oceans 56 km marathon in Cape Town.

WHAT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY FROM THIS STUDY WAS THAT THE CRAMPERS HAD AN

AVERAGE LOSS OF BODY WEIGHT OF 2.9%, COMPARED TO 3.6% FOR THE NON-

CRAMPING CONTROLS. IN OTHERWORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT CRAMP LOST

MORE WEIGHT THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DID. It goes further than this,

because Schwellnus et al were able to measure the change in plasma

volume as well - a more direct measure for what is happening to

fluids. HERE, THEY FOUND THAT THE CRAMPERS ACTUALLY GAINED A SMALL

AMOUNT OF 0.2% DURING THE RACE. THE NON-CRAMPING CONTROL SUBJECTS

LOST 0.7%. So the sum effect of this data is that it suggests very

strongly that cramping is not associated with dehydration, or with

lower serum electrolyte levels, which is what we have had drilled

into us for many years!

The next year they published a study in Medicine and Science in

Sports and Exercise, and instead of runners it was Ironman

triathletes…….

So the two groups were essentially the same in that the crampers did

not spend longer in the course or lose more weight (a crude measure

of dehydration). Yet again the crampers and the controls looked

remarkably similar on paper---except as in the 2004 study the

crampers again had a statistically SIGNIFICANT LOWER SODIUM

concentration, and, we will repeat this, THAT SUGGESTS THEY WERE MORE

HYDRATED COMPARED TO THE CONTROLS. . .YET THEY WERE CRAMPING....

**************

You then quote this from the study of creatine

**************

The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation and Intermittent

Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid Environment

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research Aug 2007

" Therefore,increases in total body water resulting from Cr

supplementation may prove to be beneficial for maintaining hydration

status and core tempterature in athletes training or competing in the

heat. "

" BODY WEIGHT INCREASES HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE RELATED TO INCREASES

IN TOTAL BODY WATER, MORE SPECIFICALLY, INTRAMUSCULAR WATER. " (The

authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

- p 655

**********

So you asked - does it makes sense that greater intramuscular water would

cause

cramps? Well given the discussion above I will ask a question which on

reflection was badly asked in my previous post. Is not the increased

intramuscular water resulting in a situation of hyponatremia localised in

the muscle causing cramps. Is the author of the creatine paper not making a

fundamentally incorrect assumption that increased hydration is better than

either controlled balanced hydration or minor losses in water as this causes

an increase in mineral concentration which may be beneficial. Is the

creatine possibly causing the cramps through increased hydration?

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johanesburg

South Africa

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

In your post you ask the question " Does it makes sense that greater

intramuscular water would cause

cramps? "

I think it may if you look at the post by Carruthers entitled

" Dehydration/Electrolyte

Depletion and Cramps " in which he relates a web site that discusses the lack

of scientific evidence for the electrolyte depletion model .

I have tried to extract the relevant bits but it is quite long still so I

have highlighted the most outstanding sentences in caps – not to shout but

to make noticable. Following this I have quoted from your excerpts from you

creatine study.

************

The electrolyte depletion model of muscle cramps

http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/search/label/muscle%20cramps

…..Professor Schwellnus is hands down the one researcher who has

consistently moved this area forward. As a sports physician he has

treated many a runner with cramps, and his curiosity and what he was

seeing in the medical tents lead him to challenge this paradigm that

dehydration and electrolyte problems cause cramps. What he found was

that this model was based on not one shred of scientific data, and

instead relied heavily on anecdotal evidence. Since 1997 he has

published some of the only evidence available that has even attempted

to determine what actually is causing the cramps and who is prone to

this condition.

In a 2004 study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine,

Professor Schwellnus and his colleagues examined runners before and

after the Two Oceans 56 km marathon in Cape Town.

WHAT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY FROM THIS STUDY WAS THAT THE CRAMPERS HAD AN

AVERAGE LOSS OF BODY WEIGHT OF 2.9%, COMPARED TO 3.6% FOR THE NON-

CRAMPING CONTROLS. IN OTHERWORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT CRAMP LOST

MORE WEIGHT THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DID. It goes further than this,

because Schwellnus et al were able to measure the change in plasma

volume as well - a more direct measure for what is happening to

fluids. HERE, THEY FOUND THAT THE CRAMPERS ACTUALLY GAINED A SMALL

AMOUNT OF 0.2% DURING THE RACE. THE NON-CRAMPING CONTROL SUBJECTS

LOST 0.7%. So the sum effect of this data is that it suggests very

strongly that cramping is not associated with dehydration, or with

lower serum electrolyte levels, which is what we have had drilled

into us for many years!

The next year they published a study in Medicine and Science in

Sports and Exercise, and instead of runners it was Ironman

triathletes…….

So the two groups were essentially the same in that the crampers did

not spend longer in the course or lose more weight (a crude measure

of dehydration). Yet again the crampers and the controls looked

remarkably similar on paper---except as in the 2004 study the

crampers again had a statistically SIGNIFICANT LOWER SODIUM

concentration, and, we will repeat this, THAT SUGGESTS THEY WERE MORE

HYDRATED COMPARED TO THE CONTROLS. . .YET THEY WERE CRAMPING....

**************

You then quote this from the study of creatine

**************

The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation and Intermittent

Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid Environment

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research Aug 2007

" Therefore,increases in total body water resulting from Cr

supplementation may prove to be beneficial for maintaining hydration

status and core tempterature in athletes training or competing in the

heat. "

" BODY WEIGHT INCREASES HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE RELATED TO INCREASES

IN TOTAL BODY WATER, MORE SPECIFICALLY, INTRAMUSCULAR WATER. " (The

authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

- p 655

**********

So you asked - does it makes sense that greater intramuscular water would

cause

cramps? Well given the discussion above I will ask a question which on

reflection was badly asked in my previous post. Is not the increased

intramuscular water resulting in a situation of hyponatremia localised in

the muscle causing cramps. Is the author of the creatine paper not making a

fundamentally incorrect assumption that increased hydration is better than

either controlled balanced hydration or minor losses in water as this causes

an increase in mineral concentration which may be beneficial. Is the

creatine possibly causing the cramps through increased hydration?

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johanesburg

South Africa

[Guest guest]

Hi Chad

No I am not in school, I graduated some 18 years ago. I think the idea

would be to assess whether there is a link between increased intramuscular

water volume, and cramping relating to sodium deficiency. That was the

hypothesis presented in the two papers. Does the absorption of creatine

into tissue effect sodium, calcium or other minerals in balance how does

this effect water balance. I rarely take creatine as a supplement as it

didn't seem to have the wondrous effect on me that others reported, I

probably eat enough red meat to meet most of my creatine needs, but if it

did give me cramps I would experiement with talking salt tablets (assuming

no pathology of hypertension) to see if this helped me. (Table salt

contains a lot of potassium iodate, so that isn't the best tool to use for

testing). Of course if the effect is localised this may not help. Some

additional thoughts any comments.

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johanesburg

South Africa

>

> Nick,

>

> I think you have a pretty good hypothesis going here.

> How old are you? Do you happen to be in school right

> now? This would be a good research project to do. If

> any college students or researchers in this group in

> the field should take note.

>

> In the meantime we can do pre-test model using this

> yahoo group. How about a few people on here who have

> had muscle cramping issues while taking creatine in

> the past volunteer. One group of you can do what most

> people taking creatine do and drink a ton of water

> (and then they think it is the creatine that is making

> them pee so much). You can start by keeping track of

> all dietary intake (expecially creatine and fluid

> intake) and physical activity. If you have cramps

> write down when and how bad. Another group of you can

> opt to be in the other group and try to limit your

> fluid intake while consuming creatine and once again

> log all of your dietary intake, physical activity and

> cramping. Then one group can be the control group and

> not use creatine and record cramps, diet, PA. Feel

> free to report on here what you get.

> Regards,

>

> Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

> Minneapolis, MN

>

> --- Nick Tatalias <nick.tatalias@... <nick.tatalias%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> > Hi Bill

> >

> > In your post you ask the question " Does it makes

> > sense that greater

> > intramuscular water would cause

> > cramps? "

> >

> > I think it may if you look at the post by

> > Carruthers entitled

> > " Dehydration/Electrolyte

> > Depletion and Cramps " in which he relates a web site

> > that discusses the lack

> > of scientific evidence for the electrolyte depletion

> > model .

> >

> > I have tried to extract the relevant bits but it is

> > quite long still so I

> > have highlighted the most outstanding sentences in

> > caps – not to shout but

> > to make noticable. Following this I have quoted

> > from your excerpts from you

> > creatine study.

> >

> > ************

> >

> > The electrolyte depletion model of muscle cramps

> >

> http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/search/label/muscle%20cramps

> >

> > …..Professor Schwellnus is hands down the one

> > researcher who has

> > consistently moved this area forward. As a sports

> > physician he has

> > treated many a runner with cramps, and his curiosity

> > and what he was

> > seeing in the medical tents lead him to challenge

> > this paradigm that

> > dehydration and electrolyte problems cause cramps.

> > What he found was

> > that this model was based on not one shred of

> > scientific data, and

> > instead relied heavily on anecdotal evidence. Since

> > 1997 he has

> > published some of the only evidence available that

> > has even attempted

> > to determine what actually is causing the cramps and

> > who is prone to

> > this condition.

> >

> > In a 2004 study published in the British Journal of

> > Sports Medicine,

> > Professor Schwellnus and his colleagues examined

> > runners before and

> > after the Two Oceans 56 km marathon in Cape Town.

> >

> > WHAT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY FROM THIS STUDY WAS THAT THE

> > CRAMPERS HAD AN

> > AVERAGE LOSS OF BODY WEIGHT OF 2.9%, COMPARED TO

> > 3.6% FOR THE NON-

> > CRAMPING CONTROLS. IN OTHERWORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO DID

> > NOT CRAMP LOST

> > MORE WEIGHT THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DID. It goes further

> > than this,

> > because Schwellnus et al were able to measure the

> > change in plasma

> > volume as well - a more direct measure for what is

> > happening to

> > fluids. HERE, THEY FOUND THAT THE CRAMPERS ACTUALLY

> > GAINED A SMALL

> > AMOUNT OF 0.2% DURING THE RACE. THE NON-CRAMPING

> > CONTROL SUBJECTS

> > LOST 0.7%. So the sum effect of this data is that it

> > suggests very

> > strongly that cramping is not associated with

> > dehydration, or with

> > lower serum electrolyte levels, which is what we

> > have had drilled

> > into us for many years!

> >

> > The next year they published a study in Medicine and

> > Science in

> > Sports and Exercise, and instead of runners it was

> > Ironman

> > triathletes…….

> >

> > So the two groups were essentially the same in that

> > the crampers did

> > not spend longer in the course or lose more weight

> > (a crude measure

> > of dehydration). Yet again the crampers and the

> > controls looked

> > remarkably similar on paper---except as in the 2004

> > study the

> > crampers again had a statistically SIGNIFICANT LOWER

> > SODIUM

> > concentration, and, we will repeat this, THAT

> > SUGGESTS THEY WERE MORE

> > HYDRATED COMPARED TO THE CONTROLS. . .YET THEY WERE

> > CRAMPING....

> >

> > **************

> >

> > You then quote this from the study of creatine

> >

> > **************

> > The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation

> > and Intermittent

> > Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid

> > Environment

> > The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research

> > Aug 2007

> >

> > " Therefore,increases in total body water resulting

> > from Cr

> > supplementation may prove to be beneficial for

> > maintaining hydration

> > status and core tempterature in athletes training or

> > competing in the

> > heat. "

> >

> > " BODY WEIGHT INCREASES HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE

> > RELATED TO INCREASES

> > IN TOTAL BODY WATER, MORE SPECIFICALLY,

> > INTRAMUSCULAR WATER. " (The

> > authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

> > - p 655

> > **********

> > So you asked - does it makes sense that greater

> > intramuscular water would

> > cause

> > cramps? Well given the discussion above I will ask

> > a question which on

> > reflection was badly asked in my previous post. Is

> > not the increased

> > intramuscular water resulting in a situation of

> > hyponatremia localised in

> > the muscle causing cramps. Is the author of the

> > creatine paper not making a

> > fundamentally incorrect assumption that increased

> > hydration is better than

> > either controlled balanced hydration or minor losses

> > in water as this causes

> > an increase in mineral concentration which may be

> > beneficial. Is the

> > creatine possibly causing the cramps through

> > increased hydration?

> >

> > Best regards

> > Nick Tatalias

> > Johanesburg

> > South Africa

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chad

No I am not in school, I graduated some 18 years ago. I think the idea

would be to assess whether there is a link between increased intramuscular

water volume, and cramping relating to sodium deficiency. That was the

hypothesis presented in the two papers. Does the absorption of creatine

into tissue effect sodium, calcium or other minerals in balance how does

this effect water balance. I rarely take creatine as a supplement as it

didn't seem to have the wondrous effect on me that others reported, I

probably eat enough red meat to meet most of my creatine needs, but if it

did give me cramps I would experiement with talking salt tablets (assuming

no pathology of hypertension) to see if this helped me. (Table salt

contains a lot of potassium iodate, so that isn't the best tool to use for

testing). Of course if the effect is localised this may not help. Some

additional thoughts any comments.

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johanesburg

South Africa

>

> Nick,

>

> I think you have a pretty good hypothesis going here.

> How old are you? Do you happen to be in school right

> now? This would be a good research project to do. If

> any college students or researchers in this group in

> the field should take note.

>

> In the meantime we can do pre-test model using this

> yahoo group. How about a few people on here who have

> had muscle cramping issues while taking creatine in

> the past volunteer. One group of you can do what most

> people taking creatine do and drink a ton of water

> (and then they think it is the creatine that is making

> them pee so much). You can start by keeping track of

> all dietary intake (expecially creatine and fluid

> intake) and physical activity. If you have cramps

> write down when and how bad. Another group of you can

> opt to be in the other group and try to limit your

> fluid intake while consuming creatine and once again

> log all of your dietary intake, physical activity and

> cramping. Then one group can be the control group and

> not use creatine and record cramps, diet, PA. Feel

> free to report on here what you get.

> Regards,

>

> Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

> Minneapolis, MN

>

> --- Nick Tatalias <nick.tatalias@... <nick.tatalias%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> > Hi Bill

> >

> > In your post you ask the question " Does it makes

> > sense that greater

> > intramuscular water would cause

> > cramps? "

> >

> > I think it may if you look at the post by

> > Carruthers entitled

> > " Dehydration/Electrolyte

> > Depletion and Cramps " in which he relates a web site

> > that discusses the lack

> > of scientific evidence for the electrolyte depletion

> > model .

> >

> > I have tried to extract the relevant bits but it is

> > quite long still so I

> > have highlighted the most outstanding sentences in

> > caps – not to shout but

> > to make noticable. Following this I have quoted

> > from your excerpts from you

> > creatine study.

> >

> > ************

> >

> > The electrolyte depletion model of muscle cramps

> >

> http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/search/label/muscle%20cramps

> >

> > …..Professor Schwellnus is hands down the one

> > researcher who has

> > consistently moved this area forward. As a sports

> > physician he has

> > treated many a runner with cramps, and his curiosity

> > and what he was

> > seeing in the medical tents lead him to challenge

> > this paradigm that

> > dehydration and electrolyte problems cause cramps.

> > What he found was

> > that this model was based on not one shred of

> > scientific data, and

> > instead relied heavily on anecdotal evidence. Since

> > 1997 he has

> > published some of the only evidence available that

> > has even attempted

> > to determine what actually is causing the cramps and

> > who is prone to

> > this condition.

> >

> > In a 2004 study published in the British Journal of

> > Sports Medicine,

> > Professor Schwellnus and his colleagues examined

> > runners before and

> > after the Two Oceans 56 km marathon in Cape Town.

> >

> > WHAT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY FROM THIS STUDY WAS THAT THE

> > CRAMPERS HAD AN

> > AVERAGE LOSS OF BODY WEIGHT OF 2.9%, COMPARED TO

> > 3.6% FOR THE NON-

> > CRAMPING CONTROLS. IN OTHERWORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO DID

> > NOT CRAMP LOST

> > MORE WEIGHT THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DID. It goes further

> > than this,

> > because Schwellnus et al were able to measure the

> > change in plasma

> > volume as well - a more direct measure for what is

> > happening to

> > fluids. HERE, THEY FOUND THAT THE CRAMPERS ACTUALLY

> > GAINED A SMALL

> > AMOUNT OF 0.2% DURING THE RACE. THE NON-CRAMPING

> > CONTROL SUBJECTS

> > LOST 0.7%. So the sum effect of this data is that it

> > suggests very

> > strongly that cramping is not associated with

> > dehydration, or with

> > lower serum electrolyte levels, which is what we

> > have had drilled

> > into us for many years!

> >

> > The next year they published a study in Medicine and

> > Science in

> > Sports and Exercise, and instead of runners it was

> > Ironman

> > triathletes…….

> >

> > So the two groups were essentially the same in that

> > the crampers did

> > not spend longer in the course or lose more weight

> > (a crude measure

> > of dehydration). Yet again the crampers and the

> > controls looked

> > remarkably similar on paper---except as in the 2004

> > study the

> > crampers again had a statistically SIGNIFICANT LOWER

> > SODIUM

> > concentration, and, we will repeat this, THAT

> > SUGGESTS THEY WERE MORE

> > HYDRATED COMPARED TO THE CONTROLS. . .YET THEY WERE

> > CRAMPING....

> >

> > **************

> >

> > You then quote this from the study of creatine

> >

> > **************

> > The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation

> > and Intermittent

> > Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid

> > Environment

> > The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research

> > Aug 2007

> >

> > " Therefore,increases in total body water resulting

> > from Cr

> > supplementation may prove to be beneficial for

> > maintaining hydration

> > status and core tempterature in athletes training or

> > competing in the

> > heat. "

> >

> > " BODY WEIGHT INCREASES HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE

> > RELATED TO INCREASES

> > IN TOTAL BODY WATER, MORE SPECIFICALLY,

> > INTRAMUSCULAR WATER. " (The

> > authors cite six studies to support this statement.)

> > - p 655

> > **********

> > So you asked - does it makes sense that greater

> > intramuscular water would

> > cause

> > cramps? Well given the discussion above I will ask

> > a question which on

> > reflection was badly asked in my previous post. Is

> > not the increased

> > intramuscular water resulting in a situation of

> > hyponatremia localised in

> > the muscle causing cramps. Is the author of the

> > creatine paper not making a

> > fundamentally incorrect assumption that increased

> > hydration is better than

> > either controlled balanced hydration or minor losses

> > in water as this causes

> > an increase in mineral concentration which may be

> > beneficial. Is the

> > creatine possibly causing the cramps through

> > increased hydration?

> >

> > Best regards

> > Nick Tatalias

> > Johanesburg

> > South Africa

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

>

> All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting

(as well

> as somewhat Painful)

>

> It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity

workout. It

> doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight

training

> sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.

>

****

Hi , below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker

(http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/):

Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:

When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was

a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance

benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports

launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side

effects.

I'll never forget my first " exposure " to creatine, was in discussion

with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby

team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters

degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on

observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional

players for three years before the whole team decided that they

needed to use creatine!

Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in

relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of

the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they

ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost

instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their

mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players

on the field came down with cramp!

Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the

game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-

time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused

the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced

the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened

again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest

something other than co-incidence!

I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had

a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says

that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.

My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with

caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is

establishing what we call " causality " . It's very easy to find

associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED

with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very

difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the

problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the

investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're

studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled

settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the

between training activities are meticulously controlled. That

situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your

training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of

creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance

to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.

This " confounding factor " might mean that the more appropriate

conclusion from these studies is that " Creatine use and proper

training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of

competitive sport " . Note the difference between that and the

title " Creatine prevents cramping " !

Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your

experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to

indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.

Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,

but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily

definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so

far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the

best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!

Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine

would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is

dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the

bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is

responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look

through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).

point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because

you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you

experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means

to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and

body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.

My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control

factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is

more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which

creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the

likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine

per se causing cramp, but it's an " accomplice " .

I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from

research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of

the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You

are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-

effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle

cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.

The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of

creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism

either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an

indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly

understood.

Hope that helps!

Ross

=================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

>

> All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting

(as well

> as somewhat Painful)

>

> It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity

workout. It

> doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight

training

> sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.

>

****

Hi , below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker

(http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/):

Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:

When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was

a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance

benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports

launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side

effects.

I'll never forget my first " exposure " to creatine, was in discussion

with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby

team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters

degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on

observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional

players for three years before the whole team decided that they

needed to use creatine!

Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in

relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of

the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they

ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost

instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their

mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players

on the field came down with cramp!

Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the

game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-

time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused

the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced

the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened

again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest

something other than co-incidence!

I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had

a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says

that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.

My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with

caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is

establishing what we call " causality " . It's very easy to find

associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED

with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very

difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the

problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the

investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're

studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled

settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the

between training activities are meticulously controlled. That

situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your

training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of

creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance

to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.

This " confounding factor " might mean that the more appropriate

conclusion from these studies is that " Creatine use and proper

training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of

competitive sport " . Note the difference between that and the

title " Creatine prevents cramping " !

Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your

experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to

indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.

Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,

but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily

definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so

far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the

best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!

Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine

would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is

dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the

bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is

responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look

through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).

point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because

you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you

experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means

to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and

body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.

My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control

factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is

more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which

creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the

likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine

per se causing cramp, but it's an " accomplice " .

I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from

research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of

the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You

are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-

effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle

cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.

The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of

creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism

either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an

indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly

understood.

Hope that helps!

Ross

=================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Hi

An interesting thought on fatigue. Noakes and his colleagues released

papers on the role of the brain and nervous system in fatigue control and

management which pointed to a brain control of fatigue onset rather than

muscular depletion model - the brains shuts you down to preserve energy for

vital functions (and running away from sabre tooth tigers) rather than

muscular fatigue (think there were some post on this forum on this topic).

I wonder if increased levels of creatine mediate the onset of normal fatigue

signalling, so that other systems fatigue before central control by the

brain starts the shut down process.

I see my water retention postulate seems to " hold some water " :-)

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

>

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting

> (as well

> > as somewhat Painful)

> >

> > It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity

> workout. It

> > doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight

> training

> > sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.

> >

>

> ****

> Hi , below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker

> (http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/):

>

> Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:

>

> When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was

> a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance

> benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports

> launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side

> effects.

>

> I'll never forget my first " exposure " to creatine, was in discussion

> with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby

> team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters

> degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on

> observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional

> players for three years before the whole team decided that they

> needed to use creatine!

>

> Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in

> relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of

> the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they

> ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost

> instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their

> mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players

> on the field came down with cramp!

>

> Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the

> game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-

> time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused

> the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced

> the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened

> again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest

> something other than co-incidence!

>

> I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had

> a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says

> that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.

>

> My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with

> caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is

> establishing what we call " causality " . It's very easy to find

> associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED

> with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very

> difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the

> problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the

> investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're

> studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled

> settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the

> between training activities are meticulously controlled. That

> situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your

> training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of

> creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance

> to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.

> This " confounding factor " might mean that the more appropriate

> conclusion from these studies is that " Creatine use and proper

> training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of

> competitive sport " . Note the difference between that and the

> title " Creatine prevents cramping " !

>

> Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your

> experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to

> indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.

>

> Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,

> but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily

> definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so

> far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the

> best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!

>

> Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine

> would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is

> dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the

> bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is

> responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look

> through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).

> point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because

> you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you

> experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means

> to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and

> body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.

>

> My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control

> factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is

> more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which

> creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the

> likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine

> per se causing cramp, but it's an " accomplice " .

>

> I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from

> research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of

> the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You

> are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-

> effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle

> cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.

>

> The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of

> creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism

> either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an

> indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly

> understood.

>

> Hope that helps!

> Ross

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

An interesting thought on fatigue. Noakes and his colleagues released

papers on the role of the brain and nervous system in fatigue control and

management which pointed to a brain control of fatigue onset rather than

muscular depletion model - the brains shuts you down to preserve energy for

vital functions (and running away from sabre tooth tigers) rather than

muscular fatigue (think there were some post on this forum on this topic).

I wonder if increased levels of creatine mediate the onset of normal fatigue

signalling, so that other systems fatigue before central control by the

brain starts the shut down process.

I see my water retention postulate seems to " hold some water " :-)

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

>

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting

> (as well

> > as somewhat Painful)

> >

> > It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity

> workout. It

> > doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight

> training

> > sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.

> >

>

> ****

> Hi , below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker

> (http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/):

>

> Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:

>

> When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was

> a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance

> benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports

> launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side

> effects.

>

> I'll never forget my first " exposure " to creatine, was in discussion

> with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby

> team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters

> degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on

> observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional

> players for three years before the whole team decided that they

> needed to use creatine!

>

> Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in

> relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of

> the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they

> ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost

> instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their

> mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players

> on the field came down with cramp!

>

> Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the

> game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-

> time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused

> the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced

> the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened

> again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest

> something other than co-incidence!

>

> I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had

> a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says

> that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.

>

> My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with

> caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is

> establishing what we call " causality " . It's very easy to find

> associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED

> with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very

> difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the

> problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the

> investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're

> studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled

> settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the

> between training activities are meticulously controlled. That

> situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your

> training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of

> creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance

> to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.

> This " confounding factor " might mean that the more appropriate

> conclusion from these studies is that " Creatine use and proper

> training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of

> competitive sport " . Note the difference between that and the

> title " Creatine prevents cramping " !

>

> Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your

> experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to

> indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.

>

> Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,

> but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily

> definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so

> far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the

> best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!

>

> Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine

> would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is

> dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the

> bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is

> responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look

> through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).

> point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because

> you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you

> experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means

> to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and

> body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.

>

> My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control

> factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is

> more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which

> creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the

> likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine

> per se causing cramp, but it's an " accomplice " .

>

> I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from

> research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of

> the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You

> are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-

> effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle

> cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.

>

> The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of

> creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism

> either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an

> indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly

> understood.

>

> Hope that helps!

> Ross

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Group

I have found a study that I think is interesting, to the topic.

J Athl Train. 2003 Jul–Sep; 38(3): 216–219.

Cramping and Injury Incidence in Collegiate Football Players Are Reduced by

Creatine

Supplementation

Greenwood,* B. Kreider,* Lori Greenwood,* and Allyn Byars†

Abstract

Objective:

To examine the effects of creatine supplementation on the incidence of cramping

and

injury observed during 1 season of National Collegiate Athletic Association

Division IA

football training and competition.

Design and Setting:

In an open-label manner, subjects who volunteered to take creatine ingested 0.3

g·kg

& #8722;1·d & #8722;1 of creatine for 5 days followed by an average of 0.03

g·kg· & #8722;1d & #8722;1 after workouts,

practices, and games. Creatine intake was monitored and recorded by researchers

throughout the course of the study.

Subjects:

Thirty-eight of 72 athletes (53.0%) participating in the 1999 Division IA

collegiate football

season from the same university volunteered to take creatine in this study.

Subjects

trained, practiced, or played in environmental conditions ranging from 15°C to

37°C

(mean = 27.26° ± 10.93°C) and 46.0% to 91.0% relative humidity (mean = 54.17% ±

9.71%).

Measurements:

Injuries treated by the athletic training staff were recorded and categorized as

cramping,

heat illness or dehydration, muscle tightness, muscle strains, noncontact joint

injuries,

contact injuries, and illness. The number of missed practices due to injury and

illness was

also recorded. Data were analyzed using a 2 × 2 & #967;2 test to examine the

first reported

incidences of cramping and injury for creatine users and nonusers.

Results:

Creatine users had significantly less cramping ( & #967;21 = 5.35 P = .021); heat

illness or

dehydration ( & #967;21 = 4.09, P = .043); muscle tightness ( & #967;21 = 5.39, P =

..020); muscle

strains ( & #967;21 = 5.36, P = .021); and total injuries ( & #967;21 = 17.80,

P<.001) than nonusers.

There were no significant differences between groups regarding noncontact joint

injuries

( & #967;21= 3.48, P = .062); contact injuries ( & #967;21 = 0.00, P = .100);

illness ( & #967;21 = 6.82, P =

..409); missed practices due to injury ( & #967;21 = 1.43, P = .233); or players

lost for the season

( & #967;21 = 4.75, P = .491).

Conclusions:

The incidence of cramping or injury in Division IA football players was

significantly lower

or proportional for creatine users compared with nonusers.

Keywords: exercise, nutrition, ergogenic aids, safety, sport injuries

[Guest guest]

Hi Group

I have found a study that I think is interesting, to the topic.

J Athl Train. 2003 Jul–Sep; 38(3): 216–219.

Cramping and Injury Incidence in Collegiate Football Players Are Reduced by

Creatine

Supplementation

Greenwood,* B. Kreider,* Lori Greenwood,* and Allyn Byars†

Abstract

Objective:

To examine the effects of creatine supplementation on the incidence of cramping

and

injury observed during 1 season of National Collegiate Athletic Association

Division IA

football training and competition.

Design and Setting:

In an open-label manner, subjects who volunteered to take creatine ingested 0.3

g·kg

& #8722;1·d & #8722;1 of creatine for 5 days followed by an average of 0.03

g·kg· & #8722;1d & #8722;1 after workouts,

practices, and games. Creatine intake was monitored and recorded by researchers

throughout the course of the study.

Subjects:

Thirty-eight of 72 athletes (53.0%) participating in the 1999 Division IA

collegiate football

season from the same university volunteered to take creatine in this study.

Subjects

trained, practiced, or played in environmental conditions ranging from 15°C to

37°C

(mean = 27.26° ± 10.93°C) and 46.0% to 91.0% relative humidity (mean = 54.17% ±

9.71%).

Measurements:

Injuries treated by the athletic training staff were recorded and categorized as

cramping,

heat illness or dehydration, muscle tightness, muscle strains, noncontact joint

injuries,

contact injuries, and illness. The number of missed practices due to injury and

illness was

also recorded. Data were analyzed using a 2 × 2 & #967;2 test to examine the

first reported

incidences of cramping and injury for creatine users and nonusers.

Results:

Creatine users had significantly less cramping ( & #967;21 = 5.35 P = .021); heat

illness or

dehydration ( & #967;21 = 4.09, P = .043); muscle tightness ( & #967;21 = 5.39, P =

..020); muscle

strains ( & #967;21 = 5.36, P = .021); and total injuries ( & #967;21 = 17.80,

P<.001) than nonusers.

There were no significant differences between groups regarding noncontact joint

injuries

( & #967;21= 3.48, P = .062); contact injuries ( & #967;21 = 0.00, P = .100);

illness ( & #967;21 = 6.82, P =

..409); missed practices due to injury ( & #967;21 = 1.43, P = .233); or players

lost for the season

( & #967;21 = 4.75, P = .491).

Conclusions:

The incidence of cramping or injury in Division IA football players was

significantly lower

or proportional for creatine users compared with nonusers.

Keywords: exercise, nutrition, ergogenic aids, safety, sport injuries

[Guest guest]

One other hypothesis, if I may add, is to test if taking creatine

leads to over-training, because of placebo-type or real gains in

volume or intensity. I know that I got cramps after using creatine

(and since I knew of this problem, so kept myself hydrated etc.),

hence I stopped using it.

I also get cramps when I over-train (please reply to my previous

questions about over-training in martial arts, if you can shed some

light (my questions may be found by searching this mailing list for

iaido/aikido/judo etc.)). I have had upper back cramps/spasms after

too many sword cuts (1000 or so), and bad abdominal cramps after doing

too many aikido rolls.

So my hunch is that creatine in itself may not cause cramps, but

results in over-training, which causes cramps for some people.

Best regards

Jaideep Mukherjee, PhD

Sensei, yuwakan.com

Houston USA

[Guest guest]

One other hypothesis, if I may add, is to test if taking creatine

leads to over-training, because of placebo-type or real gains in

volume or intensity. I know that I got cramps after using creatine

(and since I knew of this problem, so kept myself hydrated etc.),

hence I stopped using it.

I also get cramps when I over-train (please reply to my previous

questions about over-training in martial arts, if you can shed some

light (my questions may be found by searching this mailing list for

iaido/aikido/judo etc.)). I have had upper back cramps/spasms after

too many sword cuts (1000 or so), and bad abdominal cramps after doing

too many aikido rolls.

So my hunch is that creatine in itself may not cause cramps, but

results in over-training, which causes cramps for some people.

Best regards

Jaideep Mukherjee, PhD

Sensei, yuwakan.com

Houston USA

[Guest guest]

The biggest issue we run into when it comes to creatine and muscle cramping is

that we are still not exactly sure how and why we cramp. It will be very hard

for us to answer any questions regarding creatine and its effects when we don't

understand the physiological reasons.

This aside we can, and will, still create our own hypotheses based on the little

things that we do know and understand. So here goes:

First off, we can to some degree associate muscle cramping with fatigue. Well

this makes things interesting because we still are not sure what exactly causes

fatigue though we have some pretty good evidence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/health/research/12musc.html?_r=1 & ei=5087 & em= & e\

n=a4100c9a25696de0 & ex=1203397200 & adxnnl=1 & adxnnlx=1203913427-KvYpRGOqI19W6ldHCnK\

13g & oref=slogin

Knowing that creatine can allow people to " do more repetitions " shows us that we

do not fatigue as quickly and that the muscle has to undergo a considerably

larger amount of work than had the person not been taking creatine. A few

things come to mind when thinking about that. When I was hearing that people

were complaining of cramps as well as muscle strains and pulls quite a long time

ago and were blaming creatine I wondered if the increased work loads had

anything to do with it.

First off muscle strains and pulls also tend to happen most when in a fatigued

state (this is mainly because the muscles are no longer in strong-binding states

and thus cannot absorb as much force). Secondly, the muscles in the body are

now working a lot more than what they have previously been trained to do. Lets

take running as an example here. When you run (depending on the speed of

course) you have to absorb nearly 6-8 times your bodyweight onto one leg. If

you can do this at a much higher rate for a longer period of time than the

muscles and joints are accustomed to the possibility of injury and possibly

cramping can become increased because of calcium leakage and neurological

fatigue possibly causing inappropriate muscular contractions leading to a loss

of proper mechanics and thus a higher liklihood of injury. This obviously just

explains why we tend to get hurt and cramp while fatigued and does not

necessarily implicate creatine. But

because the nervous system and muscles are not used to the amount of work being

done one could argue that these kinds of things could be more of an issue early

on during creatine use.

Obviously. I could go into a much larger treatise concerning the physiology

here, but I am sure most of you get the jist of my hypothesis.

So Nick and I have given ours. Other hypotheses are more than welcomed.

Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

Minneapolis, MN

Re: Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle Cramps

and Dehydration?

>

> Hi ,

>

> All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting

(as well

> as somewhat Painful)

>

> It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity

workout. It

> doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight

training

> sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.

>

****

Hi , below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker

(http://scienceofspo rt.blogspot. com/):

Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:

When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was

a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance

benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports

launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side

effects.

I'll never forget my first " exposure " to creatine, was in discussion

with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby

team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters

degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on

observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional

players for three years before the whole team decided that they

needed to use creatine!

Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in

relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of

the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they

ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost

instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their

mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players

on the field came down with cramp!

Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the

game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-

time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused

the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced

the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened

again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest

something other than co-incidence!

I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had

a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says

that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.

My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with

caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is

establishing what we call " causality " . It's very easy to find

associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED

with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very

difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the

problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the

investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're

studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled

settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the

between training activities are meticulously controlled. That

situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your

training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of

creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance

to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.

This " confounding factor " might mean that the more appropriate

conclusion from these studies is that " Creatine use and proper

training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of

competitive sport " . Note the difference between that and the

title " Creatine prevents cramping " !

Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your

experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to

indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.

Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,

but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily

definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so

far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the

best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!

Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine

would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is

dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the

bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is

responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look

through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).

point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because

you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you

experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means

to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and

body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.

My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control

factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is

more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which

creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the

likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine

per se causing cramp, but it's an " accomplice " .

I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from

research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of

the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You

are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-

effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle

cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.

The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of

creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism

either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an

indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly

understood.

================================

[Guest guest]

The biggest issue we run into when it comes to creatine and muscle cramping is

that we are still not exactly sure how and why we cramp. It will be very hard

for us to answer any questions regarding creatine and its effects when we don't

understand the physiological reasons.

This aside we can, and will, still create our own hypotheses based on the little

things that we do know and understand. So here goes:

First off, we can to some degree associate muscle cramping with fatigue. Well

this makes things interesting because we still are not sure what exactly causes

fatigue though we have some pretty good evidence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/health/research/12musc.html?_r=1 & ei=5087 & em= & e\

n=a4100c9a25696de0 & ex=1203397200 & adxnnl=1 & adxnnlx=1203913427-KvYpRGOqI19W6ldHCnK\

13g & oref=slogin

Knowing that creatine can allow people to " do more repetitions " shows us that we

do not fatigue as quickly and that the muscle has to undergo a considerably

larger amount of work than had the person not been taking creatine. A few

things come to mind when thinking about that. When I was hearing that people

were complaining of cramps as well as muscle strains and pulls quite a long time

ago and were blaming creatine I wondered if the increased work loads had

anything to do with it.

First off muscle strains and pulls also tend to happen most when in a fatigued

state (this is mainly because the muscles are no longer in strong-binding states

and thus cannot absorb as much force). Secondly, the muscles in the body are

now working a lot more than what they have previously been trained to do. Lets

take running as an example here. When you run (depending on the speed of

course) you have to absorb nearly 6-8 times your bodyweight onto one leg. If

you can do this at a much higher rate for a longer period of time than the

muscles and joints are accustomed to the possibility of injury and possibly

cramping can become increased because of calcium leakage and neurological

fatigue possibly causing inappropriate muscular contractions leading to a loss

of proper mechanics and thus a higher liklihood of injury. This obviously just

explains why we tend to get hurt and cramp while fatigued and does not

necessarily implicate creatine. But

because the nervous system and muscles are not used to the amount of work being

done one could argue that these kinds of things could be more of an issue early

on during creatine use.

Obviously. I could go into a much larger treatise concerning the physiology

here, but I am sure most of you get the jist of my hypothesis.

So Nick and I have given ours. Other hypotheses are more than welcomed.

Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

Minneapolis, MN

Re: Creatine Supplementation Leading to Muscle Cramps

and Dehydration?

>

> Hi ,

>

> All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting

(as well

> as somewhat Painful)

>

> It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity

workout. It

> doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight

training

> sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.

>

****

Hi , below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker

(http://scienceofspo rt.blogspot. com/):

Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:

When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was

a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance

benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports

launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side

effects.

I'll never forget my first " exposure " to creatine, was in discussion

with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby

team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters

degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on

observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional

players for three years before the whole team decided that they

needed to use creatine!

Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in

relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of

the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they

ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost

instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their

mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players

on the field came down with cramp!

Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the

game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-

time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused

the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced

the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened

again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest

something other than co-incidence!

I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had

a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says

that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.

My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with

caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is

establishing what we call " causality " . It's very easy to find

associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED

with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very

difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the

problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the

investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're

studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled

settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the

between training activities are meticulously controlled. That

situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your

training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of

creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance

to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.

This " confounding factor " might mean that the more appropriate

conclusion from these studies is that " Creatine use and proper

training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of

competitive sport " . Note the difference between that and the

title " Creatine prevents cramping " !

Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your

experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to

indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.

Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,

but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily

definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so

far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the

best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!

Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine

would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is

dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the

bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is

responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look

through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).

point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because

you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you

experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means

to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and

body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.

My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control

factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is

more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which

creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the

likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine

per se causing cramp, but it's an " accomplice " .

I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from

research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of

the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You

are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-

effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle

cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.

The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of

creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism

either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an

indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly

understood.

================================

[Guest guest]

The following should contribute to this discussion.

Is it possible that what many are calling cramps is

really compartment syndrome? Read below.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

Creatine and Other Supplements

Pediatric Clinics of North America - Volume 54, Issue

4 (August 2007)  -  Copyright © 2007 W. B. Saunders

Company

Creatine and Other Supplements

 Lattavo, DOa, & #8727;

 Kopperud, MDb,c

D. , MD, MPH, FAAPc,d

There have been anecdotal reports of muscle cramps and

stiffness, musculotendinous injury, dehydration, and

heat illness, but the research to date indicates that

creatine does not increase the incidence of these

effects [4], [43], [51], [52], [53], [54]. The

incidence of musculoskeletal injuries and heat illness

actually may be decreased by creatine [54]; however,

there is evidence that creatine may increase muscle

compartmental pressures in the leg [58].

[4]  Tokish J.M., Kocher M.S., Hawkins R.J.: 

Ergogenic aids: a review of basic science,

performance, side effects, and status in sports.  Am J

Sports Med 32. (6): 1543-1553.2004;  Abstract

[43]  Bemben M.G., Lamont H.S.:  Creatine

supplementation and exercise performance: recent

findings.  Sports Med 35. (2): 107-125.2005;  Abstract

[51]  Shao A., Hathcock J.N.:  Risk assessment for

creatine monohydrate.  Regul Toxicol

Pharmacol 45. (3): 242-251.2006;  Abstract

[52]  Kreider R.B., Melton C., Rasmussen C.J., et al: 

Long-term creatine supplementation does not

significantly affect clinical markers of health in

athletes.  Mol Cell Biochem 244. (1–2): 95-104.2003; 

Abstract

[53]  Schilling B.K., Stone M.H., Utter A., et al: 

Creatine supplementation and health variables: a

retrospective study.  Med Sci Sports Exerc 33. (2):

183-188.2001;  Abstract

[54]  Greenwood M., Kreider R.B., Melton C., et al: 

Creatine supplementation during college football

training does not increase the incidence of cramping

or injury.  Mol Cell Biochem 244. (1–2): 83-88.2003; 

Abstract

[58]  Bizzarini E., De Angelis L.:  Is the use of oral

creatine supplementation safe?.  J Sports Med Phys

Fitness 44. (4): 411-416.2004;  Abstract