Re: Nature, Nurture, and SolutionTemplates

[Guest guest]

>

> Subject: Re: Nature, Nurture, and " SolutionTemplates "

> To: Supertraining

> Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 2:04 PM

> In terms of motor learning it would just mean they learn

> easier. There

> is no such thing as a baby rolling out of the womb being

> able to run

> downfield and catch a football - or score a 5-point

> technique, etc.

>

> All a natural is a a quick motor learner - possibly with

> genetic

> advantage for that particular sport they are deemed

> 'natural' at. I

> remember the 'Superstars' competitions from the

> 70's and one thing

> they showed was that even gifted athletes out of their

> element of

> expertise look clumsy when trying to perform a complex

> novel task.

*****

A good example of this is Jordan. He quit basketball to play baseball.

Despite all his efforts and the efforts of the coaches he could not hit a curve

ball to save his career. He was forced to admit failure and returned to

basketball.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

[Guest guest]

>

> Subject: Re: Nature, Nurture, and " SolutionTemplates "

> To: Supertraining

> Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 2:04 PM

> In terms of motor learning it would just mean they learn

> easier. There

> is no such thing as a baby rolling out of the womb being

> able to run

> downfield and catch a football - or score a 5-point

> technique, etc.

>

> All a natural is a a quick motor learner - possibly with

> genetic

> advantage for that particular sport they are deemed

> 'natural' at. I

> remember the 'Superstars' competitions from the

> 70's and one thing

> they showed was that even gifted athletes out of their

> element of

> expertise look clumsy when trying to perform a complex

> novel task.

*****

A good example of this is Jordan. He quit basketball to play baseball.

Despite all his efforts and the efforts of the coaches he could not hit a curve

ball to save his career. He was forced to admit failure and returned to

basketball.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

[Guest guest]

>

> Subject: Re: Nature, Nurture, and " SolutionTemplates "

> To: Supertraining

> Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 2:04 PM

> In terms of motor learning it would just mean they learn

> easier. There

> is no such thing as a baby rolling out of the womb being

> able to run

> downfield and catch a football - or score a 5-point

> technique, etc.

>

> All a natural is a a quick motor learner - possibly with

> genetic

> advantage for that particular sport they are deemed

> 'natural' at. I

> remember the 'Superstars' competitions from the

> 70's and one thing

> they showed was that even gifted athletes out of their

> element of

> expertise look clumsy when trying to perform a complex

> novel task.

*****

A good example of this is Jordan. He quit basketball to play baseball.

Despite all his efforts and the efforts of the coaches he could not hit a curve

ball to save his career. He was forced to admit failure and returned to

basketball.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

[Guest guest]

Nope what ?

The most valuable thing those kids posees is easier motor learning.

they are starting better because they are better motor learners.

Really, I dont understand what you try to express with the " Nope " .

Dan Partelly

Oradea, ROmania

>

> > Its all learning. Motor learning, in the case of sports.

>

> Telle -- Nope! I coached football, wrestling, track and weight

> training, and taught physical education for too many years. Some kids

> are just naturals. The level at which they start can't be reached by

> others there age no matter what the training -- ever.

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA.

>

[Guest guest]

Nope what ?

The most valuable thing those kids posees is easier motor learning.

they are starting better because they are better motor learners.

Really, I dont understand what you try to express with the " Nope " .

Dan Partelly

Oradea, ROmania

>

> > Its all learning. Motor learning, in the case of sports.

>

> Telle -- Nope! I coached football, wrestling, track and weight

> training, and taught physical education for too many years. Some kids

> are just naturals. The level at which they start can't be reached by

> others there age no matter what the training -- ever.

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA.

>

[Guest guest]

> A good example of this is Jordan. He quit basketball to

> play baseball. Despite all his efforts and the efforts of the

> coaches he could not hit a curve ball to save his career. He was

> forced to admit failure and returned to basketball.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

In Why Couldn’t Hit And Other Tales Of The Neurology Of

Sports, the author Harold Klawans links a " window of opportunity " to

the perfecting of sports skills. The below paragraph explains this

very clearly.

" Like every successful professional golfer, Hogan started out young…

It seems that hitting a golf ball, like hitting a baseball, is an

acquired skill that has a window of opportunity- a time frame during

the development and maturation of the brain when it must be learned

if it is ever to be truly perfected. "

In the case of Jordan, he had apparently missed his window of

opportunity when it came to hitting a baseball.

_____________________________

Gerald Lafon

Director, Judo America San Diego

Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

http://www.judoamerica.com

858 578-7748

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/4/2008 10:16:14 A.M. Central America Standard ,

kshobman@... writes:

I don't know if I agree with that. There are lots of people who

started hitting young who can't get around on a major league fastball.

There are less, but there are still highly skilled athletes who came

to their sport late

****

Hi !

As Dr. Klawans points out in his book:

" There are no scientific studies of windows of opportunity in baseball

players, but the appropriate studies have been done in violinists. Becoming an

accomplished violinist requires motor skills that must be mastered by the

brain. Instead of learning to recognize the spin on a speeding baseball and

translate that into a muscular response, playing a violin consists of the brain

learning to give rapid and complex directions to the fingers of both hands in

response to visual or aural clues. Scientific investigation of the process

showed pretty much what professional musicians have always known. In order to

become a violin virtuoso, a musician has to start playing before the age of

thirteen. "

Klawans also notes a similarity with language development:

" Just like the learning of bird songs by birds and learning how to hit a

curveball, the acquisition of language requires environmental input. And no

matter what culture the human infant is raised in, no matter what language his

is exposed to, acquisition of language can only occur during a critical period

of development. A critical period is a specific time interval in which an

ability must be acquired if it is ever to be acquired at all. "

According to Klawans, evidence of such 'windows of opportunity " relative to

language can be found in humans who have not been exposed to language until

after this critical period has passed, such as Itard's " Victor " (Wild Boy of

Averyron) and the more contemporary " Genie, " extensively researched by

Curtiss.

Parallels to this " window of opportunity " can also be found in gymnastics as

well as music.

Ken Jakalski

Lisle HS

Lisle, IL USA

[Guest guest]

I don't know if I agree with that. There are lots of people who

started hitting young who can't get around on a major league fastball.

There are less, but there are still highly skilled athletes who came

to their sport late.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

> > A good example of this is Jordan. He quit basketball to

> > play baseball. Despite all his efforts and the efforts of the

> > coaches he could not hit a curve ball to save his career. He was

> > forced to admit failure and returned to basketball.

> >

> > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > Southington Ct USA

>

> In Why Couldn’t Hit And Other Tales Of The Neurology Of

> Sports, the author Harold Klawans links a " window of opportunity " to

> the perfecting of sports skills. The below paragraph explains this

> very clearly.

>

> " Like every successful professional golfer, Hogan started out young…

> It seems that hitting a golf ball, like hitting a baseball, is an

> acquired skill that has a window of opportunity- a time frame during

> the development and maturation of the brain when it must be learned

> if it is ever to be truly perfected. "

>

> In the case of Jordan, he had apparently missed his window of

> opportunity when it came to hitting a baseball.

> _____________________________

> Gerald Lafon

> Director, Judo America San Diego

> Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

> http://www.judoamerica.com

> 858 578-7748

>

>

[Guest guest]

I will give you my understanding, based on my experience which is at best

anecdotal. I'm using me as an example, because I can best answer the topic

this way, as it is personal. Hope its not to self absorbed.

Growing up I was exposed to sports like soccer, hockey (field) and squash,

(tried tennis really didn't enjoy), and cricket - I sucked at cricket, I

just couldn't throw the ball very well, and couldn't see what the bowlers

were doing with spin, and swimming eventually water polo. Only at age 15

did I start rugby and start some martial arts (a few months of Judo). I was

very good in Rugby loved the contact. In my second year of tertiary

education (is that sophomore?) (19years old) an American Football League was

started here, took to the game like a duck to water, was the player of the

year in that first year (played Linebacker and some offence as fullback). I

remember being asked by others how I had read the play; my answer - I just

did. I played for eight years in South Africa and was awarded best player

or best defensive player in every season except one, when I played in the

UK. My ability to resolve the physical and mental problems during a game

can only describe as innate. I was passionate and spent hours learning and

training and quickly moved into player/coaching . The passion came because

I was good, the sport seemed to suite me. The combination of high explosive

strength and problem solving suited my body make up and my brain, its as if

I have good combat skills.

Following me stopping Football aged 27 I started Ninjitsu (a martial art

akin to Jujitsu but with added weapons training) and qualified for my first

dan in just under 3 years, despite a required curriculum of 3.5 years,

because by all accounts I was that good. Again, I was drawn to the sport,

because it suited me and I think the same skills of problem solving in

football (reading body language, reading the intent. and reacting with

extreme violence) is an ability I have. This was later in life, so I'm not

sure that the window theory applies, unless the cross over from football is

sufficient to have stimulated a similar skills set.

Is it in my genes? My father had boxed in his youth, but had stopped well

before my brother or I were born. My mother was not that sporty. We as

children were actively discouraged from fighting sports and my father was

disinterested in rugby, so I didn't know the rules until I tried to play

aged 15. I had one exposure to Judo in my early teens literally 5 training

sessions. How did I acquire the skills other sibling rivalry?

I also loved lifting weights and gym, sadly influenced by body building and

not really by sport training until in my 30s. I never liked

(loathed?) distance events (which we were made to do as so called " base "

conditioning in swimming and for soccer). So my body type is OK for

explosive sports, although I was never the fastest sprinter at school I did

OK. Took up weightlifting aged 35 (5 years ago) and power lifting, two

years ago, I am average at powerlifting some guys are just so strong, I'm

not innately strong like some of these guys. Enjoy these sports, but my

passion remains teaching contact mechanics and contact skills, currently to

rugby players.

I think that the combination of natural skills (like being more orientated

to explosive movements than distance running) and my learned problem solving

skills were the contributors.

Nature , nurtured.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2008/12/3 , (Health Sciences)

> I think the argument of Nature vs. Nurture is never ending. For every

> example of nature there is a comparable story of nurture. I don't think this

> is an either or scenario with anything that has been mentioned but I think

> it is logical to subscribe to the notion that there is a compromise between

> nature and nurture. Not necessarily from a Motor Learning perspective but

> from a motor development perspective.

>

> Fascinating discussions and I have enjoyed reading the input of all

> regarding this issue.

>

> Steve , ABD, CSCS, USAW

> Lynchburg, VA

>

> =============================

>

> From: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf

> Of Jerry Telle

> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:38 PM

> To: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Nature, Nurture, and " SolutionTemplates "

>

>

>

> > All a natural is a a quick motor learner

>

> Telle -- Like the first time they did it after watching it a few times.

>

> > - possibly with genetic advantage for that particular sport they

> > are deemed 'natural' at.

>

> Telle -- " possibly? " A good friend of mine -- Joe Romig -- took 3rd in

> state as a just turned 15 yr old 175 lb sophomore. Was All State

> football and wrestling his Jr and Sr year, and broke the state

> record( I think) in the shot but preferred to lift weights instead of

> track. Consensus All American at Colorado Univ his Jr and Sr years and

> National Lineman of the year his Sr. year. He also military pressed

> 225 for reps at 14. Not to mention he was a scholar in

> Astrogeophysics ?-- that he had to work for -- the sports were a

> given. I don't know any physical thing that would have been out of his

> element.

>

> I had 2 14 year old athletes bench press 295 and 305 full pause,

> narrow grip, no arch at 144 and 147 lbs. after 4-6 months of training,

> 5 sets of 5 as per I Berger, Fred Hatfields mentor. And they were

> good, albeit not great, at whatever they did.I know adults who have

> trained forever who cant strict bench 300 lbs. How many caucasians

> have broken the 100-200 meter record in the last 20 years? Or play in

> the secondary or could excel at 3 prof sports?

>

> I can't imagine anyone thinking there are not super naturals. Bill

> Kazmier once told me he started powerlifting at 225 lbs and got up to

> 275 w/out drugs !!! and watching him during the multi task Strong

> Man ????

>

> > I remember the 'Superstars' competitions from the 70's and one thing

> > they showed was that even gifted athletes out of their element --

>

> Telle -- how far out?

>

> > -- of expertise look clumsy when trying to perform a complex novel

> > task.

>

> Telle -- that they had never seen before? Who were they compared

> against? Others that had never seen/practiced the novel task before??

>

> ===============================

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I will give you my understanding, based on my experience which is at best

anecdotal. I'm using me as an example, because I can best answer the topic

this way, as it is personal. Hope its not to self absorbed.

Growing up I was exposed to sports like soccer, hockey (field) and squash,

(tried tennis really didn't enjoy), and cricket - I sucked at cricket, I

just couldn't throw the ball very well, and couldn't see what the bowlers

were doing with spin, and swimming eventually water polo. Only at age 15

did I start rugby and start some martial arts (a few months of Judo). I was

very good in Rugby loved the contact. In my second year of tertiary

education (is that sophomore?) (19years old) an American Football League was

started here, took to the game like a duck to water, was the player of the

year in that first year (played Linebacker and some offence as fullback). I

remember being asked by others how I had read the play; my answer - I just

did. I played for eight years in South Africa and was awarded best player

or best defensive player in every season except one, when I played in the

UK. My ability to resolve the physical and mental problems during a game

can only describe as innate. I was passionate and spent hours learning and

training and quickly moved into player/coaching . The passion came because

I was good, the sport seemed to suite me. The combination of high explosive

strength and problem solving suited my body make up and my brain, its as if

I have good combat skills.

Following me stopping Football aged 27 I started Ninjitsu (a martial art

akin to Jujitsu but with added weapons training) and qualified for my first

dan in just under 3 years, despite a required curriculum of 3.5 years,

because by all accounts I was that good. Again, I was drawn to the sport,

because it suited me and I think the same skills of problem solving in

football (reading body language, reading the intent. and reacting with

extreme violence) is an ability I have. This was later in life, so I'm not

sure that the window theory applies, unless the cross over from football is

sufficient to have stimulated a similar skills set.

Is it in my genes? My father had boxed in his youth, but had stopped well

before my brother or I were born. My mother was not that sporty. We as

children were actively discouraged from fighting sports and my father was

disinterested in rugby, so I didn't know the rules until I tried to play

aged 15. I had one exposure to Judo in my early teens literally 5 training

sessions. How did I acquire the skills other sibling rivalry?

I also loved lifting weights and gym, sadly influenced by body building and

not really by sport training until in my 30s. I never liked

(loathed?) distance events (which we were made to do as so called " base "

conditioning in swimming and for soccer). So my body type is OK for

explosive sports, although I was never the fastest sprinter at school I did

OK. Took up weightlifting aged 35 (5 years ago) and power lifting, two

years ago, I am average at powerlifting some guys are just so strong, I'm

not innately strong like some of these guys. Enjoy these sports, but my

passion remains teaching contact mechanics and contact skills, currently to

rugby players.

I think that the combination of natural skills (like being more orientated

to explosive movements than distance running) and my learned problem solving

skills were the contributors.

Nature , nurtured.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2008/12/3 , (Health Sciences)

> I think the argument of Nature vs. Nurture is never ending. For every

> example of nature there is a comparable story of nurture. I don't think this

> is an either or scenario with anything that has been mentioned but I think

> it is logical to subscribe to the notion that there is a compromise between

> nature and nurture. Not necessarily from a Motor Learning perspective but

> from a motor development perspective.

>

> Fascinating discussions and I have enjoyed reading the input of all

> regarding this issue.

>

> Steve , ABD, CSCS, USAW

> Lynchburg, VA

>

> =============================

>

> From: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf

> Of Jerry Telle

> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:38 PM

> To: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Nature, Nurture, and " SolutionTemplates "

>

>

>

> > All a natural is a a quick motor learner

>

> Telle -- Like the first time they did it after watching it a few times.

>

> > - possibly with genetic advantage for that particular sport they

> > are deemed 'natural' at.

>

> Telle -- " possibly? " A good friend of mine -- Joe Romig -- took 3rd in

> state as a just turned 15 yr old 175 lb sophomore. Was All State

> football and wrestling his Jr and Sr year, and broke the state

> record( I think) in the shot but preferred to lift weights instead of

> track. Consensus All American at Colorado Univ his Jr and Sr years and

> National Lineman of the year his Sr. year. He also military pressed

> 225 for reps at 14. Not to mention he was a scholar in

> Astrogeophysics ?-- that he had to work for -- the sports were a

> given. I don't know any physical thing that would have been out of his

> element.

>

> I had 2 14 year old athletes bench press 295 and 305 full pause,

> narrow grip, no arch at 144 and 147 lbs. after 4-6 months of training,

> 5 sets of 5 as per I Berger, Fred Hatfields mentor. And they were

> good, albeit not great, at whatever they did.I know adults who have

> trained forever who cant strict bench 300 lbs. How many caucasians

> have broken the 100-200 meter record in the last 20 years? Or play in

> the secondary or could excel at 3 prof sports?

>

> I can't imagine anyone thinking there are not super naturals. Bill

> Kazmier once told me he started powerlifting at 225 lbs and got up to

> 275 w/out drugs !!! and watching him during the multi task Strong

> Man ????

>

> > I remember the 'Superstars' competitions from the 70's and one thing

> > they showed was that even gifted athletes out of their element --

>

> Telle -- how far out?

>

> > -- of expertise look clumsy when trying to perform a complex novel

> > task.

>

> Telle -- that they had never seen before? Who were they compared

> against? Others that had never seen/practiced the novel task before??

>

> ===============================

>

>

>