Guest guest Posted January 1, 1997 Report Share Posted January 1, 1997 freedom >Hi Steve, How do we work with illusory time and events from the past? Time is an illusion? What's up with that? And our stories arise from our thoughts about illusory past and future? I've lost the urge to wrestle with this angel, but I seem to have a voyeur's curiosity about how you do it, and how Einstein and Heisenberg dealt with it. All of you. Are we pretending there's more than one of us? Is that like suspending our disbelief so we can enjoy a movie? Barry > >You don?t believe in freedom? Have you never thrown open a window? > >Never unbuttoned a coat and taken it off and noticed that you can move > >more freely without it? > > i was listening to one of " the teaching company's " series of lectures called " the philosophy of mind " , by john r. searle, a professor at the university of berkley. an interesting analysis, survey, of what we understand about, a history of how we humans view, and have viewed , human consciousness. > in a section about digital minds, and artificial intellegence, he tells a story about an experiment in hypnosis, that i find to be very interesting. > it reinforces, agrees with my views, as a model of the connection, and the gap , and the interaction of our conscious, and subconscious minds, and which one is really the dominant part of mind. > in the experiment one of the scientist was hypnotized, and given the post hypnotic suggestion, that when he heard to word " germany " he would get down on the floor, and crawl around like an infant. > there was a party after this conference, at which the word " germany " was spoken to the subject. in the middle of conversation, he dropped down onto all fours, and started crawling around the room. > amidst laughter and incredulity, he was asked why he was crawling around on the floor, and then even told that he was doing so, because of this post hypnotic suggestion. at both promptings he insisted that he was not crawling like a baby, he was not acting because of the hypnosis, that he had just suddenly noticed how lovely the marble tile was, and wanted to get a better look, because he was anticipating going into a flooring enterprise. > he was free in his conscious mind, but dictated to by a part of his subconscious that he was not consciously aware of, and in the larger scheme of things acting unconsciously as his society had programed him to do with out conscious awareness of what really motivated him. > i see this as a model of our lives in general. > until we get down into our deepest motivation, and how we were imprinted, we are not in touch with what really drives us. and when we do get down to that level, in seeing all that came to influence us, make our minds, and way of being, we also find that our roots have roots,and those roots have roots, and routes, and roots and routes, and roots, on and on, to the begining of being, and before that. > when we can see all that we are, feel, think, etc. having a history, i see a purpose, an unfoldment. and this is the idea i tried to express in an earlier post " mind within mind " . > dna rules the progress and order of cells with in a forming egg or fetus, while each cell in that being is being being formed each is following the laws of it's own consciousness, i.e. a positive proton, drawing to it a negative electron, gravity, friction, and all of the other forces that come into that and all other interactions. > i like the buddhist concept of " interbeing " . our hand may choose to reach for either an apple or a pair, but the decsiion to do so comes from a more complicated inner process that the conscious mind is only getting the last superficial simplistic bit of. and the hand certainly can't choose to take the left fork in the road, when the rest of the body goes right. > freedom? > i think it is part of the same illusion as seperateness, or choosing to look closely at floor tile, in the middle of a cocktail party. > so it seems to me. > steve > -- > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 1997 Report Share Posted January 2, 1997 RE: Re: freedom > Hi Steve bravo from Barry, trapped in1996 > > > >How do we work with illusory time and events from the past? > > > >Time is an illusion? What's up with that? And our stories arise from our > >thoughts about illusory past and future? > > > >I've lost the urge to wrestle with this angel, but I seem to have a voyeur's > >curiosity about how you do it, and how Einstein and Heisenberg dealt with > >it. > > > >All of you. Are we pretending there's more than one of us? Is that like > >suspending our disbelief so we can enjoy a movie? > > > >Barry > > hi barry, > personaly i live in time, and love that i live in time. in the same way that it is important for me to acknowledge my personal, individual identity, even though i see my self as a meeting point of focus of all that is, all that was, all that wants to be, all that is manifest for what ever reasons our version of existence exists. > individual personality, and the unfolding of time serve a purpose. > my best conclusion, based upon inner exploration, outer observation, and synthesis of everything i have heard, read, think, and feel, is that the spirit that is not bound in this plane exerted creative energy to manifest in/as this form of physical reality. that creative spark, by it's very nature, continues to create, which is manifest as diversity. the one spirit's creative energy, is the same energy that makes the many and the many, and the many, until all of the details of what is within that spirit, are manifest, so as to be known in detail, to be known in relation to the interaction of it's many facets. > in a way not very different from " the works " method " write it down, put it on paper " . when everything is floating around amorphously, it is hard to see what everything is, how it interrelates, who we are. > i feel that our mainfestation, in time is something like this. > > the spirit which contains all the potential of who it is, same as who we are, is putting it self down on paper, putting itself out into the material world for reflection. > i am glad to be part of this exploration of being, of consciousness. i am willing , glad, elated to be me in time, to play/reflect this part of being. > also to complete my thought, as i know we have some cosmic students in the audience ;-) > i see this impulse to create, to be manifest, to fragment into tne many, as a first impulse, and a latent instinct within us, as part of this being, all that is true of it, is true of us it's parts. > i see that this impulse to create, diversify, has two counter reaction instincts. the first counter balancing instinct to frationalization, is the desire for reunion. that what is being split from the one into the many has a deep deep desire to recombine, a desire/need for union, this second instinct is what we call love, the desire for union, reunion. the second instinct is the one in our body that we are not easily aware of, but it is the desire to unmanifest again, to un be, to die, to cease being. this coming from the feeling of wanting the peace again of nothing, from which we came. our state of being manifest in this physical/mental dimension is a strain, temporary, in both the persoanl and the universal sense. > finnaly, all of these cycles and instincts are in us, and as the microcosim shows our desire to recreate as in reproducing off spring , children, or art works, or books, or what ever comes from within us out into the world, i think we are being manifest by a being that was in turn manifest in a previous generation, and that at some point our universal consciousness of this physical realm will mature, reclaim, rerealize our spiritual identity, and create our own next generation. > then again, maybe not. ;-) > steve > -- > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 1997 Report Share Posted January 2, 1997 Re: freedom KATHERINE COOL BARRY > Barry - that's a brilliantly illuminating analogy. > > " Are we pretending there's more than one of us? Is that like suspending > our disbelief so we can enjoy a movie? " > > YES! > > Love Katharine > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 >You don?t believe in freedom? Have you never thrown open a window? >Never unbuttoned a coat and taken it off and noticed that you can move >more freely without it? i was listening to one of " the teaching company's " series of lectures called " the philosophy of mind " , by john r. searle, a professor at the university of berkley. an interesting analysis, survey, of what we understand about, a history of how we humans view, and have viewed , human consciousness. in a section about digital minds, and artificial intellegence, he tells a story about an experiment in hypnosis, that i find to be very interesting. it reinforces, agrees with my views, as a model of the connection, and the gap , and the interaction of our conscious, and subconscious minds, and which one is really the dominant part of mind. in the experiment one of the scientist was hypnotized, and given the post hypnotic suggestion, that when he heard to word " germany " he would get down on the floor, and crawl around like an infant. there was a party after this conference, at which the word " germany " was spoken to the subject. in the middle of conversation, he dropped down onto all fours, and started crawling around the room. amidst laughter and incredulity, he was asked why he was crawling around on the floor, and then even told that he was doing so, because of this post hypnotic suggestion. at both promptings he insisted that he was not crawling like a baby, he was not acting because of the hypnosis, that he had just suddenly noticed how lovely the marble tile was, and wanted to get a better look, because he was anticipating going into a flooring enterprise. he was free in his conscious mind, but dictated to by a part of his subconscious that he was not consciously aware of, and in the larger scheme of things acting unconsciously as his society had programed him to do with out conscious awareness of what really motivated him. i see this as a model of our lives in general. until we get down into our deepest motivation, and how we were imprinted, we are not in touch with what really drives us. and when we do get down to that level, in seeing all that came to influence us, make our minds, and way of being, we also find that our roots have roots,and those roots have roots, and routes, and roots and routes, and roots, on and on, to the begining of being, and before that. when we can see all that we are, feel, think, etc. having a history, i see a purpose, an unfoldment. and this is the idea i tried to express in an earlier post " mind within mind " . dna rules the progress and order of cells with in a forming egg or fetus, while each cell in that being is being being formed each is following the laws of it's own consciousness, i.e. a positive proton, drawing to it a negative electron, gravity, friction, and all of the other forces that come into that and all other interactions. i like the buddhist concept of " interbeing " . our hand may choose to reach for either an apple or a pair, but the decsiion to do so comes from a more complicated inner process that the conscious mind is only getting the last superficial simplistic bit of. and the hand certainly can't choose to take the left fork in the road, when the rest of the body goes right. freedom? i think it is part of the same illusion as seperateness, or choosing to look closely at floor tile, in the middle of a cocktail party. so it seems to me. steve -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 > >How do we work with illusory time and events from the past? > >Time is an illusion? What's up with that? And our stories arise from our >thoughts about illusory past and future? > >I've lost the urge to wrestle with this angel, but I seem to have a voyeur's >curiosity about how you do it, and how Einstein and Heisenberg dealt with >it. > >All of you. Are we pretending there's more than one of us? Is that like >suspending our disbelief so we can enjoy a movie? > >Barry hi barry, personaly i live in time, and love that i live in time. in the same way that it is important for me to acknowledge my personal, individual identity, even though i see my self as a meeting point of focus of all that is, all that was, all that wants to be, all that is manifest for what ever reasons our version of existence exists. individual personality, and the unfolding of time serve a purpose. my best conclusion, based upon inner exploration, outer observation, and synthesis of everything i have heard, read, think, and feel, is that the spirit that is not bound in this plane exerted creative energy to manifest in/as this form of physical reality. that creative spark, by it's very nature, continues to create, which is manifest as diversity. the one spirit's creative energy, is the same energy that makes the many and the many, and the many, until all of the details of what is within that spirit, are manifest, so as to be known in detail, to be known in relation to the interaction of it's many facets. in a way not very different from " the works " method " write it down, put it on paper " . when everything is floating around amorphously, it is hard to see what everything is, how it interrelates, who we are. i feel that our mainfestation, in time is something like this. the spirit which contains all the potential of who it is, same as who we are, is putting it self down on paper, putting itself out into the material world for reflection. i am glad to be part of this exploration of being, of consciousness. i am willing , glad, elated to be me in time, to play/reflect this part of being. also to complete my thought, as i know we have some cosmic students in the audience ;-) i see this impulse to create, to be manifest, to fragment into tne many, as a first impulse, and a latent instinct within us, as part of this being, all that is true of it, is true of us it's parts. i see that this impulse to create, diversify, has two counter reaction instincts. the first counter balancing instinct to frationalization, is the desire for reunion. that what is being split from the one into the many has a deep deep desire to recombine, a desire/need for union, this second instinct is what we call love, the desire for union, reunion. the second instinct is the one in our body that we are not easily aware of, but it is the desire to unmanifest again, to un be, to die, to cease being. this coming from the feeling of wanting the peace again of nothing, from which we came. our state of being manifest in this physical/mental dimension is a strain, temporary, in both the persoanl and the universal sense. finnaly, all of these cycles and instincts are in us, and as the microcosim shows our desire to recreate as in reproducing off spring , children, or art works, or books, or what ever comes from within us out into the world, i think we are being manifest by a being that was in turn manifest in a previous generation, and that at some point our universal consciousness of this physical realm will mature, reclaim, rerealize our spiritual identity, and create our own next generation. then again, maybe not. ;-) steve -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Barry - that's a brilliantly illuminating analogy. " Are we pretending there's more than one of us? Is that like suspending our disbelief so we can enjoy a movie? " YES! Love Katharine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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