Re: A Woman with AS share her thoughts with us...

[Guest guest]

There is some good stuff in there, Sir . (when were you made a Dame?)

The notion of too damn capable causing emotional embarrassment in NT,

makes some sense. So does describing the workplace of old, suggesting

the age of the author.

" Mostly it's all simple things that people learn in colleges and

Universities, but learnt in the most complex way that is never used anyway. "

Yes.

Poses serious problems for me.

I learnt how to apply clever ways of solving problems back when people

did not have the technology. Today they have it and I am out of work.

My point is that I did _not_ understand the clever stuff but I did know

how the use it without knowing.

A snag though is today's technology is designed for those people and

inaccessible to me. I don't think like them.

....and then the author flips into nutcase mode.

Something she mentions which is of importance is the INTJ.

Fair enough that most AS profile to INTJ or INTP

The J/P difference is major. I am P and do not get on with J, with the

converse seeming to be true. Fight time.

I'm even wondering if there is a link with holding religious

convictions. A major part is belief without evidence. (don't get me

wrong here, if that is how you are, fine, but keep it inside)

There is no enviro crunch unless it is forced by no-compo's. Aside to

that a split is possible as the rich and powerful try and keep it that

way, there is a real problem which has existed through all recorded history.

As a counter to the " we are all going to die " I point out that there is

no resource crisis, ever, even in a billion years. (by which time man

has to either vacate the Earth or move it before the Sun destroys the Earth)

Given power we can generate electricity and using that anything can be

made, even liquid fuels if we want. It's all electrochemistry, a field

which will expand. The power is there, we already know most of the

answers, just a matter of doing nuclear power on a very large scale.

The limits are in people's heads, not technology. Those " skills " she

mentions, it's more about being rational, doing, making.

[Guest guest]

,

Well I can't read it all right now... I got bogged down as my mind isn't focusing to well today. But I agree with her point in the first section about society valueing social skills more and more. That it hasn't always been that way in the past. From much of what I have read of history people seem to have been more tolerant of personality oddities. Not always, and not in all places of course. I'm sure I might well have been drown as a witch in some cultures... LOL I do think that social development is becoming more and more a focus as we have more and more machines to do our work for us. Interestingly it is often people who are a bit 'odd' who are the ones who invent these machines. As I pointed out to a friend who thought it was terrible that my dad prefers to not socialize much..."If it wasn't for people like him, people like you wouldn't have washing machines so you'd be stuck at home washing clothes all the time." I don't know if she got my point or not. Probably not. It's true though. Traditionally inventors are often people with poor social skills. Anyway, just my thoughts at the moment.

Jennie

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I agree that the past might have been kinder to Aspies, but that is

only insofar that they were actually able to survive to adulthood,

which, before the advent of antibiotics, many would not have. And

they would still need to possess some sort of " currency " - a

profession, a trade, a service, and the wherewithal to sell their

services. Oddness was probably perfectly permissible as long as you

had SOME social reciprocity skills. Thus, astute Aspies, in order to

prosper, would have had to learn to meet NT half way.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Hmmm.  what to say... I can only make my own reflexions ... what this writer's musings bring up for me.  and the thoughts  I share are those  that come up often when reading posts on this site and dealing with my own AS husband.  At the risk of offending AS people here I offer :AS are more defensive than they need to be, taking any sort of criticism so literally that the criticism fails to have any useful  purpose.   AS tend to be dual.. everything is black and white; there always being a right or wrong answer.   I could give the examples of this I see in this message, but instead I challenge anyone who is truly interested to find them themselves. In closing, I will also challenge AS to accept that we are all different and it is not really that big a deal unless you make it so.  I say accept, because I think that AS, because of thier processing style, cannot really understand.  Just the way I accept that our processing style is different but I can't understand it.  The duality of this writer's thinking is exhibited in her assessment that one who is not creative is socially creative.   And the suppostition that AS has been invented to explain people who are more cerebral and skilled (often too much skill) than those who depend on social skills ... skill is almost nothing, social skill is everything.. well, this sort simplistic thinking is completely counter productive and can lead to theories which I find downright dangerous.   Janet ZEE- NT socially skilled, very creative, high work ethic, possessing many skills, I don't exactly 'fit in' either but not having a pity party. Greetings: This was a post that came to me privately that I have permission to share.  It is written by a woman with AS.  I wrote her back and her second post follows.  She is not a member of ASPIRES.  Your thoughts?  She was not posting to ASPIRES so the rule of banned religion as a topic does not apply to her words.  She uses it as a metaphor at times but I am guessing is Christian.  So reader beware and feel free to hit the delete button although she raises some interesting questions.  Have we lowered the bar?   WHY she wrote ME is still a mystery.  Comments?? Happy Holidays.   Dear Sir,I Think I have a breakthrough in describing Aspies. Since I am one, it  has taken a lot of thinking this past two years, but it really does  bother me when people say we have one sort of trait, and that is:  social impairment, and then the rest is all self interest. Ok, I  realize that you mean no harm. This is what is it: some people are  creative with things, and others aren't are creative socially.  They naturally see visual cues, and all the details involved, and  can instantly figure it out. This is the majority. They are not rigid  but always able to understand the moment in the moment. It is a  natural survival skill that can be optimized with proper help when  they are children. This is because I believe that most people who are  not creative in other ways, are creative socially. And some others are  more suppressed when they are children, and don't really develop much  socially. And so therefore it isn't the parents who are seen to be at  fault, but the child is condemned for it instead.And so therefore it boggles them why anyone would "not" be able to see  what they see. And I think the reason why most people are creative in  the social department is mainly because of the way society is today.  People are taught from youth the importance of social interaction.In the past, this was not the emphasis at all! It used to be "skills"  that were important, because things were more laborious to do! Make  sense? People sis their socializing "on the side" but children were  not allowed to chew gum or talk in class. They had to be silent, and  learn the skills!People generally accepted oddball personalities as long as their skill  and work was good. And people generally accepted more types of people  in harder times when people had to pull together their efforts in a  community spirit. Those who couldn't contribute were looked at as  bums. But in today's society, there is so much technology to do things  that skills aren't as important. Instead children are taught that  social skills are vital, in that, ANYTHING can be taught to ANYONE,  since it's now much easier to do things!Firstly, if you have too many skills, you are shunned because you  raise the bar. There is supposed to be a LOWEST common denominator,  where, people only do what is easy, and then the rest is social  skills, keeping up appearances, and tooting their own horn. That's  what I see in the workplace. If a person who has too much skill, and  not enough social skill comes along, they are immediately disliked  because they raised the bar in terms of work standards, making  everyone else have to work harder, and then thy don't even have a  personality anyone likes. They make the place less social and fun to  be in!So this is why Asperger's syndrome has been invented, so as to take a  different kind of personality, who is much more cerebral and skilled,  and tell everyone that they have a problem so that people can then  stash them in the back and not worry, because now they are labeled and  put aside. They have a mental disability, so, that explains it. And  therefore no one else has to change. They can stay the same, not make  any reasonable adjustments, and say that this one person is disabled,  and then leave that person alone to deal with it alone.So this is what's happening. It wouldn't have been considered a  disability in a time where, skill was everything.But since skill is almost nothing, and social skill is everything now,  with advanced technology, really it's all about appearing skilled, and  like as IF one has a lot of knowledge. Mostly it's all simple things  that people learn in colleges and Universities, but learnt in the most  complex way that is never used anyway. People don't apply complexity,  they allow computers to do that. They wouldn't calculate stats  manually, they would have a computer do that, and the person who knows  how to do that, isn't that valuable. Maybe they are looked at as a  novelty person.Really what it is is, Aspies are devalued because they aren't social  butterflies, but, in the end, everyone is, and it becomes a society  where the only valuable things are computers and people are secondary.  That sounds extreme but there is a reason behind it: Aspies are the  first to go though, but in the end everyone will be treated lesser  than computers and technology, until those things cannot be maintained  by our economy anymore, and computers will be the last things to go.  Because, computers are the core of security systems, and when the  economy goes down, the rich will hang on harder than everyone else,  and they will pay their big bucks to run security computer systems to  protect themselves from the common person suffering. Despite the fact  that we shouldn't be using them when we have no more resources to  support them. But the wealthy will be the last to go green in a  natural way. They will buy up all the technological things first  living a high tech green life. which is a total hypocrisy since  technology is an energy hog.Anyway, We could get into why the large energy companies won't allow  the common person to go totally green and hippie, but we know that's  because they want to make a buck all the way down the line, dragging  everyone down into doom. They want to sell solutions, rather than just  say, the solution is to drop it all and go live in the woods and eat  berries and live off the land. There aren't enough resources to do  this as gradually as we would like!They won't allow that. Period. It will be, a downward spiral, made to  appear as though everything is OK, when it clearly isn't, and it will  be against the law not to go down with the ship together with everyone  else. You will be a dissenter and a law breaker is you are not staying  with the sinking ship! If you go outside that, you will be seen as a  threat to the wealthy people. trying to create a different system that  doesn't support their wealth anymore, which overthrows theirs.So the point is, Aspies are creative in other ways, where they care  more about the solution, similar to the Myer Briggs INTJ type. You  see, and Aspie was once a "type" but now, they are "mentally  disabled". This is because society has put too much emphasis on social  conditioning. Social conditioning is the control mechanism.Social conditioning, although it has it's perks...also is a bit of a  jail. If you look at pure Christianity, you'd see that Christ  instructed his followers to abandon social conditioning, and follow  goodness, love and God in pureness. He said "he who loves father  mother or child more than me, is not worthy of me" Which means, people  who put more emphasis on their own families, and personal affairs than  the whole GOOD of mankind, is not worthy of having it. It's the self  sacrificial love that is the real love, and all else is carnal love.  God gave his only son, for the whole of mankind, just like a Godly  person is supposed to give up themselves and their own families, for  the greater good.But people are weak in that, they cannot abandon families and friends  and love for the sake of a better world! They want to be HAPPY. And  people are happy if they have a support system (family) and love. So,  this is why family is the key to control. If you make social skills  and family and friends more important than the greater good, you can  then make people do what you want, since that is their weakness anyway.But you see, social conditioning is not only brainwash, but it IS mind  control. People know that if you love your family, or your friends,  you will not challenge the social boundaries. You will not do what  makes you stand out or be uncomfortable or what threatens you  economically which in turn threatens your family. So it's always  considered important that everyone get married, and have children, and  place them as number one, so that those in power have a handle on you!You see, people think that serving family is the highest thing, but  the bible doesn't command us to get married or have children, and the  apostle actually said it will cause you difficulty as a  Christian, but not that you should NOT get married. He said, whatever  state you are in when you come the Christ, stay that way. Don't seek  marriage or family, you are now a servant of God. And that' makes  sense because, if you had to choose between family or serving God,  which would you choose? It would cause difficulty. And there's no way  to serve your brethren and have a family at the same time unless you  are wealthy. Because all your energy goes into your family, and then  screw everyone else! So it is carnal and selfish to seek having those  things. But it's not a sin in itself, it just causes a big difficulty.  You can't seek out the greater good when you have another commitment.Therefore you are socially conditioned to stay in place by the norms  set out by the media, which is controlled but the banking institutions  and govt. That's right! The govt is controlled by the banks, and the  banks who fund them, have a say on how it should all be done. And so  they control the world through a society, and there are a few secret  societies in the world today that actually do this. There are only a  few who benefit from the world's system, and those are the private  banking institutions. If you own a successful bank, you control  everything, globally, from wars, to the individual behavior.It's really frightening, but, it's their influence that is controlling  things. they keep people quiet by giving them cheap entertainment, and  they modify their values through it. People complain about it, but it  never gets solved because if people didn't entertain themselves,  they'd then see starkly how bad the world really is, and cause a  rebellion. Television is mind numbing, so that's why people come home  from work, and veg.Those who come home and "think" adn "reflect" turn into those kind of  weird people who can't chill out. That's because they see reality and  they want to deal with it instead of hiding or going mentally comatose  in front of a computer or TV.Most people don't because it would threaten their decent level of  comfort. You see, if you give everyone a decent level of comfort, it  doesn't have to be a lot but as long as you throw some scraps at the  common people, they'll shut up and obey.See, so, really it takes the Aspies to see the problem, and that's why  we are being labeled, it's because we are a possible threat, and they  can't kill us because that would be wrong, and would make them look  bad, but they can torture us and try to make it appear like we have a  problem, when actually we have the insight and the solutions for the  masses.-DeborahHi,You may post it if you could just look at the spelling and grammar? I  sometimes wonder if I got a few words wrong.I also have another point, or beef or suggestion to ALL people  actually...a comment:Aspies have a hard time adapting but they spend their lives doing it  110-120% and get no thanks for it (we can never get things really  perfect enough for people and we always seem below par. Our 120%  trying to have perfect behavior is perceived like someone normal just  being bad: being somewhat naughty or misbehaving.) So we get punished  for all our hard work many times! Real hard blows.People who find it EASY to adapt refuse to make any adjustments for  Aspies, and they deliberately act as though people all must be exactly  the same: if you are different in any slight way, they don't see that  as part of the distribution of traits and accept that person how they  are, but they see that person as BAD, or WRONG. If you're different,  you're bad! But the point is, it's EASY for them to adapt, so why  don't they do it??My theory is, those who have it harder to adapt should have the burden  taken off them by those who are stronger and CAN adapt easily. That's  most people. Most people should adapt to Aspies, because most people  don't struggle. That makes it fair. That those who CAN do something  should be making more effort than those who are struggling. That way  they meet in the middle according the ability.Does that make sense?It does to me. I think the strong should support the weak. The Lion  shall lie with the lamb, that means: the strong support the weak. It's  a metaphor.Whereas society believes more in the survival of the fittest. The  Lions prey on the lambs, and people and animals all compete. But that  idea doesn't work, because if only the strong can progress, then the  entirety of society breaks down. You can't have a world of just solely  lions, because then it's greatly imbalanced.It makes more sense to have everyone work according to ability and  take only according to need. That way, you have strong community.  Besides, the world shouldn't all be one fixed way, like for example,  all about economy and nothing about anything else, such as  spirituality. I think that those who are good at providing, should be  the providers of the group. Those who are spiritual grant their  spirituality, and are taken care of by providers. Those who are  musical, do that and don't have the raise money for themselves either.In fact if you think about it, you don't really need money to have a  society. Plants reseed without having to buy seeds. Animal reproduce  without having to buy reproduction, and so, really all you need to do  is let everything spin right off that concept. No one has to have a  fridge because in the summer, you eat fresh foods and then you make a  big hole in hill in the early winter, put all your harvest in that,  add ice, put hay over it, and a door, and that's how you freeze things  overwinter. You don't need electricity.People work according to natural cycles, such as in the summer when  you need to produce more food, low and behold there happens to be  longer days to work!! And in the winter, you regain, and that way, you  don't get stressed out, you go sleep when it's dark, because you don't  have electricity for lights on, so really you sleep when it's dark.  Candles are too dim to work under.People do more things outside because there's more light out there.  Indoors is just for sleeping.You know nature works really well if you go according to it' cycles.  You get less stress, everyone gets fed and cared for, everyone is able  to contribute their abilities, so that every need is covered. Why do  you need a plateau of a money system laying over top of this and  working against the flow?? which goes against all things natural, sets  work hours that are against human cycles, and the cycles of nature and  makes everyone have to go out and damage everything just to make the  world work according to our system??It's like putting a round peg into a square hole, it just isn't workable.I understand what it means that everyone has to work, but work  shouldn't equal earning money. Work can be raising children, work is,  helping neighbors, work is, soothing a person who is hurting, work is,  taking care of nature, work is, planting plants, work is, all kinds of  things, being spiritual is a job too. Leading people spiritually is a  job. taking care of family, that's work too. It's all work, you can't  just have a one dimensional idea of what work is. Since work is  anything that takes energy and thought and skill to do. Work doesn't  always mean money raising! Everyone who works eats. Not that work is,  being a bum, when you are fully able to do SOMETHING in this world,  and living off of everyone else when you have no problems. That's non  work. But contributions that lead to your own survival shouldn't be  limited to earning cash for yourself. I think communities should be  interactive and helping in real ways, and getting involved with each  other so that, WORK is actually doing something to contribute in some  WAY, that is useful and according to ability and talent. You don't  need money to go visit a sick person in your community! you just GO.  You don't need charity fund raisers, you just, create the things needs  and distribute them.That's what I think.So that instead of people making music because they want money, and  making their music so that it will profit, instead music can be made  because it actually had meaning, and use. Good music can actually be  healing! Things should be designed just so that they thrive only in a  money system, and that's why music because money.Instead of people making clothes so that they can make money, they can  make clothes that actually last, and cover people's nakedness for once.Instead of Christ being born so that all these businesses can profit  at Christmas time, Christ is actually born because he brought light  into the world.Instead of bakers making bread because they can make money, bakers are  making bread because it keeps people from starving.Instead of artists drawing pictures so that they can sell their art,  artists are making pictures that actually are there to beautify the  world.  they make the picture and hang it up somewhere, not...they  make a picture and have to market it and come up with ways to mass  produce and sell it, so that they can make a profit.Instead of people slaughtering animals so that restaurants and people  at home can cook them up in posh ways and serve all these delicate  meals, and animal gives his live for a community of people, who eat it  out of appreciation. And don't let a drop go to waste. And therefore  you don't have all this meat being thrown out at the back of stores.  Animals who died for nothing more than to have their guts packaged and  on display on a counter and then thrown out if not bought.Instead of people having sex just because it make them feel good, so  that there are so many people that you have to chop down all the trees  on the planet to build homes to accommodate an overpopulation of  extremely promiscuous people who don't care about diseases, each  person has sex with just the one person they marry, and they don't go  overboard with children unless they have the energy to supply that  family with their own hard labor.Most people, if they had to do everything naturally, and by hand,  wouldn't have too many children because it would be quit a HARD  undertaking. They'd have only the amount they could handle by  themselves within their own realm of responsible undertaking.and so on....That's why I'm seeing, is people trying to do what doesn't work all the time.

[Guest guest]

Hi Janet, Sorry for my delayed reply. I like your post- it shows where I was at one time. It made me feel good about how far I have come, and excited about how far i can still grow- areas some of which are completely unknown to me, but which you know. I quite understand my limitations, here-- the "black and white" issue is a lack of central coherence, and if you and other NTs and other AS people who know will help me to fill in the puzzle, then I can do shades of gray too, and enjoy them very much. I have learned to recognize this tendency in myself, and ask for help when I need it. As to getting creative socially, I can, when I have enough central coherence about a situation. When I do not, which is often, I have learned to ask for key ingredients I can use to get an idea of where

the people are coming from, or what is required, at enough depth to get creative. This can take time, and wear out a poor hapless NT (smile) who is around when I ask- so I often try to ask parts of what I need in succession- ask several different people, without giving up details that would lead to gossip- so that i can learn what I need. This is far more enjoyable and helpful for me than any scripted converssation would be. As to lack of theory of mind- yes, I have been quite defensive due to that. I now know that just the act of being open, and not defensive, reads well to the NT community (yes, I am generalizing- so please let me know if this os too cut and dried). in addition, I can be tempted to get defensive anyway in certain situations, and have to remind myself to wait if I feel that way, or to ask a question to learn more without seeming defensive- sometimes,

merely enquiring can look defensive if phrased wrong, so I have to be quite careful about this. If I say what I am thinking- that I am not sure where the other person is coming from because I lack theory of mind in the relevant area (or paraphrase this to a person Ihave not told I am AS), then it looks like I am just asking where someone is coming from, and indeed, that looks defensive at times. Of course, we are all different- indeed, any two people are different. I can understand part of your processing style by analogy. I know that by analogy, you can understand part of mine. Think of it as cross-cultural communication: We are both good, and have rich cultural flavor, and can learn each other's languages. Neither of us will be native to the other culture, but we can certainly communicate and appreciate each other. As to the statement about being creative and being socially astute's being mutually exclusive characteristics, in frustration, I used to believe that as well. Because this post is too long already, I will delay my explanation of why I believed that at one time for a later post. Suffice it to say that I know it is not correct, at this point in time. I have always viewed myself as creative. There are other members of my family who are extremely creative as well-- some are NT. Janet Zimmerman wrote: Hmmm. what to say... I can only make my own reflexions ... what this writer's musings bring up for me. and the thoughts I share are those that come up often when reading posts on this site and dealing with my own AS husband. At the risk of offending AS people here I offer : AS are more defensive than they need to be, taking any sort of criticism so literally that the criticism fails to have any useful purpose. AS tend to be dual.. everything is black and white; there always being a right or wrong answer. I could give the examples of this I see in this message, but instead I challenge anyone who is truly interested to find them themselves. In closing, I will also challenge AS to accept that we are all different and it is not really that big a deal unless you make it so. I say accept, because I think that AS, because of thier processing style, cannot really understand. Just the way I accept that our processing style is different but I can't understand it. The duality of this writer's thinking is exhibited in her assessment that one who is not creative is socially creative. And the suppostition that AS has been invented to explain people who are more cerebral and skilled (often too much skill) than those who depend on social skills ... skill is almost nothing, social skill is everything.. well, this sort simplistic thinking is completely counter productive and can lead to theories which I find downright dangerous. Janet ZEE- NT socially skilled, very creative, high work ethic, possessing many skills, I don't exactly 'fit in' either but not having a pity party. .

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[Guest guest]

Janet, Thanks for replying. I am glad that you have shared that you do not always find it easy to fit in, either. You NT folk do have a code, but after I learned more abut AS, it is no longer secret to me! Indeed, the NTs in my life have done it to me with the hope that I would just do it back- they believed that they were being very open about it, because they looked me in the eye, and asked about my feelings, and shared theirs. That was very forthright of them, and I know it. I believe it may have been in some sense a secret to you as well: You read non-verbal cues faster than the speed of thought: eyes, facial expressions, tone of voice, more. I read tone of voice. I hear and understand words. I have been told that I get about 20% oft the content of face-to--face communication that

way. Add difficulties with central coherence, assumptions by unwitting NTs who do have central coherence that I know what is going on because (they think) I can fill in the blanks from context to what they leave out, and then a response of mine based on pragmatic info- that happens, coincidentally, to relate to a remark made earlier which the poor NT was embarrassed over- and there it is- he or she thinks I am subtly insulting him or her, or insinuation something, and I do not even have the central coherence to understand what I am supposed to be insinuating, let alone do it! I have learned to be very careful of teasing, because that is one activity that can lead to this easily enough. On the oter hand, I do not like all my conversation to be dry, either! A few of my friends, two of whom know I am AS, want me to be more relaxed, too- and less guarded, particualrly

at church. On the other hand, when I ask enough questions to fill in the context so that I understand, I make people wonder why I am asking such repetitive questions. One of these friends asked me if I couldn't just let some go, and figure it out. Of course, I had to tell her about lack of central coherence. Now, she knows why. She still believes that I should be unguarded- I am glad for her willingness, knowing as she now does a bit of where it might lead. I wish I could come over and have tea with you, or invite you over, so that you could see someone who trusts you but still needs major help in understanding and interpreting social situations -- someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in your life. Patience and clarification really go a long way toward helping us. I know NTs who do not fit into every social situation because they will not compromise some of their principles, or because oif prejudice, or because they do not have enough money, or things like that. I have a friend whose adopted daughter is special needs (special ed in school), but non-spectrum and acts normal. There are times that this beautiful young adult has trouble fitting in, too-- though she does act very gracious, and I have not seen her fail to get social cues. (Maybe, I do not know!) Still, have you ever failed to get social cues, and not fit in that way? I mean a few times, not just once when you were new to the neighborhood. Have you ever missed a lot of non-verbal communication? It is one thing to choose not to fit in, though I grant that these are not easy situations. it is another not to even have that choice- though I acknowledge that there are people I do not want to be with, because their behavior

offends me (for example, I have known people who went into stores and used the "five-finger discount" routinely, and I stayed away from them.). Janet Zimmerman wrote: Hi PC.. As I age I find myself bcoming more neutral about social situations. I find most all people interesting but I am not 'attracted to' nor do I 'like' all of them. I mostly let people come to me and that seems much more relaxed. but I

get great pleasure out of observing and listening without really reacting. I didn't always used to be this way. I get the impression that some AS feel as if we NT are all in a club together and the AS can't quite access the secret code. Nothing could be further from the truth.. we Nts are always struggling, each in thier own way, to fit in and be a part of what ever social structure we are faced with. I don't know where people are coming from either... it really varies from person to person ... and most of the time, I don't stress about it or even care sometimes. well, enough ramble for now. Janet ZEE who is wondering if someone will find it annoying that I did not delete the old part of this exchange... Hi Janet, Sorry for my delayed reply. I like your post- it shows where I was at one time. It made me feel good about how far I have come, and excited about how far i can still grow- areas some of which are completely unknown to me, but which you know. I quite understand my limitations, here-- the "black and white" issue is a lack of central coherence, and if you and other NTs and other AS people who know will help me to fill in the puzzle, then I can do shades of gray too, and enjoy them very much. I have learned to

recognize this tendency in myself, and ask for help when I need it. As to getting creative socially, I can, when I have enough central coherence about a situation. When I do not, which is often, I have learned to ask for key ingredients I can use to get an idea of where the people are coming from, or what is required, at enough depth to get creative. This can take time, and wear out a poor hapless NT (smile) who is around when I ask- so I often try to ask parts of what I need in succession- ask several different people, without giving up details that would lead to gossip- so that i can learn what I need. This is far more enjoyable and helpful for me than any scripted converssation would be. As to lack of theory of mind- yes, I have been quite defensive due to that. I now know that just the act of

being open, and not defensive, reads well to the NT community (yes, I am generalizing- so please let me know if this os too cut and dried). in addition, I can be tempted to get defensive anyway in certain situations, and have to remind myself to wait if I feel that way, or to ask a question to learn more without seeming defensive- sometimes, merely enquiring can look defensive if phrased wrong, so I have to be quite careful about this. If I say what I am thinking- that I am not sure where the other person is coming from because I lack theory of mind in the relevant area (or paraphrase this to a person Ihave not told I am AS), then it looks like I am just asking where someone is coming from, and indeed, that looks defensive at times. Of course, we are all different- indeed, any two people are different. I can understand part of your processing style by analogy. I know that

by analogy, you can understand part of mine. Think of it as cross-cultural communication: We are both good, and have rich cultural flavor, and can learn each other's languages. Neither of us will be native to the other culture, but we can certainly communicate and appreciate each other. As to the statement about being creative and being socially astute's being mutually exclusive characteristics, in frustration, I used to believe that as well. Because this post is too long already, I will delay my explanation of why I believed that at one time for a later post. Suffice it to say that I know it is not correct, at this point in time. I have always viewed myself as creative. There are other members of my family who are extremely creative as well-- some are NT. .

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very interesting conversation, !   first, rest assured that many NTs are too busy worrying about how they look and how others are percieving them to be actively and accurately picking up cues from others.  And we also 'see what we want to see'.   That is , we are not all interperting the same information from the same cues.  I am sure I have missed social cues, (if I missed them then I really don't know...) but more often than not, I choose to ignore cues.... from people who want my attention and I am not willing to give it to them, for whatever reason.  Obviously I enjoy social situations and feel equiped to deal with whatever may happen... where as AS may not feel so confidant that they can  assess the cues ...  I also have gotten myslef into trouble with teasing, being flippant etc., so I am more careful about who I share that side of myself with.   with my real friends, I can cut loose and be my wild and crazy out of control self  and it is very safe for me.  And fun too, I can be a very funny person and I enjoy making people laugh.  but not all the time. Yes I think it would be beneficial to us both to have a tea party.. where do you live ?   haha.  I am in Montana, near Yellowstone Park, at 5500 feet.   Perhaps the concept of AS/NT face -to-face exchasnge will evolve into some kind of helpful mutual self-therapy for people like us who are trying to understand. We can teach each other.  do we really need the 'trained professionals'?  Janet ZEE whose situation has not been helped by the 'trained professional' becasue they didn't have a clue and thought they did. Janet, Thanks for replying.  I am glad that you have shared that you do not always find it easy to fit in, either.  You NT folk do have a code, but after I learned more abut AS, it is no longer secret to me! Indeed, the NTs in my life have done it to me with the hope that I would just do it back- they believed that they were being very open about it, because they looked me in the eye, and asked about my feelings, and shared theirs.  That was very forthright of them, and I know it.   I believe it may have been in some sense a secret to you as well:  You read non-verbal cues faster than the speed of thought:  eyes, facial expressions, tone of voice, more.  I read tone of voice.  I hear and understand words.  I have been told that I get about 20% oft the content of face-to--face communication that way.  Add difficulties with central coherence, assumptions by unwitting NTs who do have central coherence that I know what is going on because (they think) I can fill in the blanks from context to what they leave out, and then a response of mine based on pragmatic info- that happens, coincidentally, to relate to a remark made earlier which the poor NT was embarrassed over- and there it is- he or she thinks I am subtly insulting him or her, or insinuation something, and I do not even have the central coherence to understand what I am supposed to be insinuating, let alone do it!  I have learned to be very careful of teasing, because that is one activity that can lead to this easily enough.  On the oter hand, I do not like all my conversation to be dry, either!  A few of my friends, two of whom know I am AS, want me to be more relaxed, too- and less guarded, particualrly at church.  On the other hand, when I ask enough questions to fill in the context so that I understand, I make people wonder why I am asking such repetitive questions.  One of these friends asked me if I couldn't just let some go, and figure it out.  Of course, I had to tell her about lack of central coherence.  Now, she knows why.  She still believes that I should be unguarded- I am glad for her willingness, knowing as she now does a bit of where it might lead. I wish I could come over and have tea with you, or invite you over, so that you  could see someone who trusts you but still needs major help in understanding and interpreting social situations -- someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in your life.  Patience and clarification really go a long way toward helping us.  I know NTs who do not fit into every social situation because they will not compromise some of their principles, or because oif prejudice, or because they do not have enough money, or things like that.  I have a friend whose adopted daughter is special needs (special ed in school), but non-spectrum and acts normal.  There are times that this beautiful young adult has trouble fitting in, too-- though she does act very gracious, and I have not seen her fail to get social cues. (Maybe, I do not know!)  Still, have you ever failed to get social cues, and not fit in that way?  I mean a few times, not just once when you were new to the neighborhood.  Have you ever missed a lot of non-verbal communication?  It is one thing to choose not to fit in, though I grant that these are not easy situations.  it is another not to even have that choice- though I acknowledge that there are people I do not want to be with, because their behavior offends me (for example, I have known people who went into stores and used the "five-finger discount" routinely, and I stayed away from them.). Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote:Hi PC.. As I age I find myself  bcoming more neutral about social situations.  I find most all people interesting but I am not 'attracted to' nor do I 'like' all of them.  I mostly let people come to me and that seems much more relaxed.  but I get great pleasure out of observing and listening without really reacting. I didn't always used to be this way.  I get the impression that some AS feel as if we NT are all in a club together and the AS can't quite access the secret  code.  Nothing could be further from the truth.. we Nts are always struggling, each in thier own way, to fit in and be a part of what ever social structure we are faced with.   I don't know where people are coming from either... it really varies from person to person ... and most of the time, I don't stress about it or even care sometimes.  well, enough ramble for now.  Janet ZEE who is wondering if someone will find it annoying that I did not delete the old part of this exchange...Hi Janet, Sorry for my delayed reply.  I like your post- it shows where I was at one time.  It made me feel good about how far I have come, and excited about how far i can still grow- areas some of which are completely unknown to me, but which you know.  I quite understand my limitations, here-- the "black and white" issue is a lack of central coherence, and if you and other NTs and other AS people who  know will help me to fill in the puzzle, then I can do shades of gray too, and enjoy them very much.  I have learned to recognize this tendency in myself, and ask for help when I need it. As to getting creative socially, I can, when I have enough central coherence about a situation.  When I do not, which is often, I have learned to ask for key ingredients I can use to get an idea of where the people are coming from, or what is required, at enough depth to get creative.  This can take time, and wear out a poor hapless NT (smile) who is around when I ask- so I often try to ask parts of what I need in succession- ask several different people, without giving up details that would lead to gossip- so that i can learn what I need.  This is far more enjoyable and helpful for me than any scripted converssation would be. As to lack of theory of mind- yes, I have been quite defensive due to that.  I now know that just the act of being open, and not defensive, reads well to the NT community (yes, I am generalizing- so please let me know if this os too cut and dried).  in addition, I can be tempted to get defensive anyway in certain situations, and have to remind myself to wait if I feel that way, or to ask a question to learn more without seeming defensive- sometimes, merely enquiring can look defensive if phrased wrong, so I have to be quite careful about this.  If I say what I am thinking- that I am not sure where the other person is coming from because I lack theory of mind in the relevant area (or paraphrase this to a person Ihave not told I am AS), then it looks like I am just asking where someone is coming from, and indeed, that looks defensive at times.  Of course, we are all different- indeed, any two people are different.  I can understand part of your processing style by analogy.  I know that by analogy, you can understand part of mine.  Think of it as cross-cultural communication:  We are both good, and have rich cultural flavor, and can learn each other's languages.  Neither of us will be native to the other culture, but we can certainly communicate and appreciate each other.  As to the statement about being creative and being socially astute's being mutually exclusive characteristics, in frustration, I used to believe that as well.  Because this post is too long already, I will delay my explanation of why I believed that at one time for a later post.  Suffice it to say that I know it is not correct, at this point in time.  I have always viewed myself as creative.  There are other members of my family who are extremely creative as well-- some are NT. . Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Janet, I have been thinking about this face-to-face idea, and really like it! We're geniuses! I live in New hampshire, not far from Boston MA, but there must be a way to get a few of us together. : ~ ) Actually, you have given me a bit to think about here- what are some indications that an NT is missing a social cue? (Other than being drunk!) Janet Zimmerman wrote: very interesting conversation, ! first, rest assured that many NTs are too busy worrying about how they look and how others are percieving them to be actively and accurately picking up cues from others. And we also 'see what we want to see'. That is , we are not all interperting the same information from the same cues. I am sure I have missed social cues, (if I missed them then I really don't know...) but more often than not, I choose to ignore cues.... from people who want my attention and I am not willing to give it to them, for whatever reason. Obviously I enjoy social situations and feel equiped to deal with whatever may happen... where as AS may not feel so confidant that they can assess the cues ... I also have gotten myslef into trouble with teasing, being flippant etc., so I am more careful about who I share that side of myself with.

with my real friends, I can cut loose and be my wild and crazy out of control self and it is very safe for me. And fun too, I can be a very funny person and I enjoy making people laugh. but not all the time. Yes I think it would be beneficial to us both to have a tea party.. where do you live ? haha. I am in Montana, near Yellowstone Park, at 5500 feet. Perhaps the concept of A S/NT face -to-face exchasnge will evolve into some kind of helpful mutual self-therapy for people like us who are trying to understand. We can teach each other. do we really need the 'trained professionals'? Janet ZEE whose situation has not been helped by the 'trained professional' becasue they didn't have a clue and thought they did. On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:14 PM, Princess

wrote: Janet, ... I wish I could come over and have tea with you, or invite you over, so that you could see someone who trusts you but still needs major help in understanding and interpreting social situations -- someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in your life. Patience and clarification really go a long way toward helping

us. .

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I feel like I live in a world of constant swirling cues... a sea of cues... so many I can't begin to 'read' them all... AND to make things even more daunting, I really beleive that not everyone interprets the cues the same way... I see someone with a tear on thier face, I think they are sad, when all they really have is something in thier eye.    Someone sees me very quiet and subdued, almost comatose (haha) they think I am a)sleepy bored c) mad e) sick f) on drugs, when in reality, I am deeply contemplating the moment and extremely satisfied.  what kinds of social cues are you referring to?   Yawns, crossed arms, ???   Snobbish behavior?  Needy behavior... ?   Please tell me more... Janet ZEEJanet, I have been thinking about this face-to-face idea, and really like it!  We're geniuses!  I live in New hampshire, not far from Boston MA, but there must be a way to get a few of us together.  : ~ )  Actually, you have given me a bit to think about here- what are some indications that an NT is missing a social cue?   (Other than being drunk!)  Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote:very interesting conversation, !   first, rest assured that many NTs are too busy worrying about how they look and how others are percieving them to be actively and accurately picking up cues from others.  And we also 'see what we want to see'.   That is , we are not all interperting the same information from the same cues.  I am sure I have missed social cues, (if I missed them then I really don't know...) but more often than not, I choose to ignore cues.... from people who want my attention and I am not willing to give it to them, for whatever reason.  Obviously I enjoy social situations and feel equiped to deal with whatever may happen... where as AS may not feel so confidant that they can  assess the cues ...  I also have gotten myslef into trouble with teasing, being flippant etc., so I am more careful about who I share that side of myself with.   with my real friends, I can cut loose and be my wild and crazy out of control self  and it is very safe for me.  And fun too, I can be a very funny person and I enjoy making people laugh.  but not all the time. Yes I think it would be beneficial to us both to have a tea party.. where do you live ?   haha.  I am in Montana, near Yellowstone Park, at 5500 feet.   Perhaps the concept of AS/NT face -to-face exchasnge will evolve into some kind of helpful mutual self-therapy for people like us who are trying to understand. We can teach each other.  do we really need the 'trained professionals'?  Janet ZEE whose situation has not been helped by the 'trained professional' becasue they didn't have a clue and thought they did. Janet,...I wish I could come over and have tea with you, or invite you over, so that you  could see someone who trusts you but still needs major help in understanding and interpreting social situations -- someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in your life.  Patience and clarification really go a long way toward helping us. . Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Guest guest]

I feel frustrated for you... and me.. I just don't think there is one pat answer to this question.  I know sometimes I 'move too fast' for my husband when I talk.. I change the subject which seems perfectly logical to me but he gets left behind and then annoyed (me too) because he thinks I changed the subject without warning.  He doesn't seem to be able to 'track ' my thoughts.  I don't have this problem with other people, so I know it is him.  Now I try to be more careful, talk slower and 'listen' to myself more when I talk to him.  I think we are doing better. I think any of your answers below could be correct at any time... just can't tell you exactly when! :-)     Every situation is different, happens quickly and you can't have a do-over!  all of the situations you mention here are legitimate and could be true on many occasions. ... and now I feel like I am at a real disadvantage because I so totally cannot advise you... I am never in my head like this to try to assess social situations... I don't look at people and think light, dark, shiny etc.  I think my system would totally melt down if I tried to do so... It seems like trying to second guess so much in situations that could be very tricky.   My style would probrably be to be verbal... just ask... "have I offended you"   "is this a bad time"  " I feel bad.."  "I'm not ready to talk about his now"  "what's going on with you"  "can I help"   'Are you ok/"   We all have problems reading cues.... some of us are more adept than others.   I think what I do(see above)  is more of a mirroring process... like something I feel on my skin rather than analyze with actual thoughts.  Like standing too close to a heater and your body just moves you away. I don't think," Hmm, that is really hot. I think the temperature might burn my skin or perhaps curl the hairs on my arm OR melt my shirt.  shall I be moving one inch away or maybe six inches... i know , I will split the difference and wait five minutes and do it again if I need to. alright, I solved that problem, it's time to move now. "   I just move without thinking.  I respond to cues without knowing it.  I don't know that my brain is really engaged in a conscious way.   I hope I am not being too silly.  I dont mean to be but I am definately feeling the limitations of trying to communicate my thoughts about this on a key pad!!!   snork snork.  Now that was silly.  sorry.  Must get back on track... see, I gave myself a cue! It seems to me that with my AS husband (the only as person I really have face-to face interaction with ) doesn't really look at people to see cues.  He comes across as being uninterested or even worse, judgemental or disapproving because he does not react.   He really is not paying attention or interested and it keeps him from having very deep interactions with people.  He is fine with it, but never gets very deep with people like I do.  Most people simply want to be acknowledged or 'heard'.  you don't really have to do anything but indicate that you are hearing what they say.  sometimes repeating their words back to them is all it takes.  "I have this great idea... blah blah blah...."  answer "I can tell you are pretty excited about your idea"    NOT a judgement on the idea itself"that *___* really *___* me off!"  answer "this has you really worked up"    N OT a solution or advice about the person's state. I'm thinking that for me, it is kind of like a hot potato - as soon as it comes to me I hand it back rather than holding it and wondering what do I do now?   there I go with a simile... do you do similies?  Janet ZEE hoping I made some sense  Janet, thanks for your reply!  Here are a few that are hard for me to pick up on accurately: (1)  I am talking about something, and the other person abruptly changes the subject.  Are there non-verbal signals I should be interpreting to know which of several things it could be? 1A.  The person does not want to talk about that subject right now.1B   The person never wants to talk about that subjecr (OK, I exaggerate!)1C.   That honestly reminded him or her of what the new subject is, but I missed the connection.1D.   The person really wanted to change the subject to something (s)he had been waiting to tell me-- that's all!  Nothing any deeper.1E.  Spread-it-around- Sue just walked within earshot, and the person is letting me knw to chill for five minutes, till she wanders away, out of earshot, once again. 1F.  None of the above. Note that each of the above could have several sub-headings.  Feel free to comment on any of them. (2)  Someone is offended at something (either that I did or said or failed to do or failed to say, or at someone else).  How can I read offence in a face?  How can I tell if it is directed at me? (3)  Someone is hurt, and I indicate that I am sorry (I know that this situation was not about me, because I have some idea what it was).  How do I know the difference between 3A  I do not want to discuss this with you at all3B  I just feel awful, but apprecaite your efforts to encourage/ comfort/ etc.3C  I do not want to talk about this in a place that is too public3D  I do want to talk about this, but you just  said th4e completely wrong thing! 3E  None of the above. (4)  I have just learned to read happy, sad, and (I believe) angry/ frustrated from eyes alone.  tell me if this is correct:  All are relative to the same person. 4A.  Clear/lighter, shiny/reflective==Happy/ contented4B   Glazed over/darker, non-reflective/more opeque==sad/ downcast4C   Darker, flashing/reflective== is this anger?4D.  Clear/lighter, non-reflective ===??  I am not sure what this would mean. I have seen A and B, and I am  now comfortable in reading this (a few months ago, I wasn't). 5.  I have just made a statement that was pretty clear, but the other person does not react.  Then, something happens to distract him or her, and I would love to know how he or she took it.  What face or body language would I see for each of these reactions?  What are a few of the many other ways he or she could have taken it? 5A.  I am fine with it, but just distracted. 5B.  You said something wrong.5C.  You did not say something you should have.5D.  I am completely confused- what on earth do you mean?  (And, maybe  I am not comfortable in asking you what you meant.)5E.  I am incredibly offended right now, but you did not do it.5F.  I am incredibly offended at something you did days ago.  I have no problem with your communication today, but I would love to get angry with you about it, because I am angry about last week. G.  Other. I will send more later- there are so many cues I cannot interpret, I could write volumes about them- but often, I do not even have enough detail to describe them well- I just feel ill at ease for some reaason. Thanks for any help,  If you cannot help, feel free to laugh at this view of ASpergan life in the NT world!  PS:  I like your idea of observing a non-verbal cue, and then telling what it means.  I will have to try that.  it is hard, because when I do certain things, it does not mean the same thing as when others do them.  I stim a bit, and do not believe that  the things I do would be the same in meaning generally.  I move my hands just because I am thinking, and it does not mean I am bored, for example. Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote:I feel like I live in a world of constant swirling cues... a sea of cues... so many I can't begin to 'read' them all... AND to make things even more daunting, I really beleive that not everyone interprets the cues the same way... I see someone with a tear on thier face, I think they are sad, when all they really have is something in thier eye.    Someone sees me very quiet and subdued, almost comatose (haha) they think I am a)sleepy bored c) mad e) sick f) on drugs, when in reality, I am deeply contemplating the moment and extremely satisfied.  what kinds of social cues are you referring to?   Yawns, crossed arms, ???   Snobbish behavior?  Needy behavior... ?   Please tell me more... Janet ZEE. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Janet I feel like 2008 will be the start to a great

outlook. Don't tell me what you see happening. I would rather see

it happening on my own. Makes the element of surprise greater

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> > > Janet,

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> > major help in understanding and interpreting social situations --

> > someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in your

> > life. Patience and clarification really go a long way toward

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Janet, I feel your frustration, and am delighted that you care enough to even be frustrated at trying to explain something that is tricky to even know how to put into words. I am not pleased that you are frustrated, do not get me worong- just that through this, you were willing to try. Thank you. I do similies all the time, and analogies, and more. I love your SNORK SNORK! I get silly all the time on this list, and then hit the "cancel" key before I send it- I feel freer to let myself go. Your answer explains a lot to me, and did have some practical things in it. When I am reading flirtatious behavior, I tend to tekk because i feel flirtatious. I have read that this is how an NT would tell. In the sea of emotions that are out there, I guess that flirtatious feelings are an "island of strength" for me. on the

other hand, I have only recently learned to describe the differences betweed fear, anger, surprise, and confusion- and perhaps, I can pick up hybrids of these feelings- when I see soemone whom I think is angry, I have felt fear so much that I am trying to learn to feel anger with him or her, as I would if I empathize, and not feel fear, as i would if I just blindly assume that hte anger is directed at me for some faux pas I have conmmitted. I guess your post showed me another flaw in my practical implementation of feelings, and it is helping me correct my errors. Thanks again! As for changing the subject without warning, I know how to ask about that, and I am bold if someone does not think I am quick-witted, but I have often been the guilty party here. I only learned a little over a year ago, from a friend who unsuccessfully at the time-- but it helped later-- tried to

convince me I am AS. She is a special ed teacher who used to work at the same school with me. She gave me some literature, and there was a cool exercise for AS folk about following the lead of others, and not bringing up a subject out of the blue- very helpful for me. I still stayed in denial for about 7 or 8 more months. : ~ ) Hay, quit snorking! I heard that! : ~ ) I love it when I can track someone's thoughts, but these times are still comparatively rare. Here is an analoby (but you probably know this already), which I found in Maxine Aston's book, Aspergers in Love: Imagine that you lived among a people who were telepathic, and that you were just as you are now. Imagine that others did not know that you did not "read minds", and you did not

know that they did. Human interaction would be hard for you in that culture, because nobody would need to say much of anything, or even gesture, but everyone would get the communication-- except you. Your friends and acquaintances would have as hard a time explaining to you as you currently have explaining to us AS folk-- harder, because you know that we do not get non-verbal cues well, but they would not even know this about you. That is how it is for NT and AS who know nothing about AS. I completely get that you understand social cues so well that you cannot even explain them to me, at times, and respect you-- admire you- that you have this gift. I am like that with certain things- I can tell the pitch of a note, and sing along with it, without thinking- and could not tell anyone else how to do it. (Well, I can- I would say that I just see what color

that note is, and sing the same color note, or one that harmonizes- like that w ould tell anyone?) I am glad that you try to slow down when you talk. If you exaggerate your facial expression a bit, and hold the expression till he looks up, I wonder if he would correlate it with your words and tone of voice? I sure would. I get tones of voice pretty well. We all have problems reading cues, but for you, that is the exception, and for me, for now, that is the rule. Still, I am happy that you have reached out to me, to try to feel what it is like. (Sending a heartfelt smile and a hug back your way.) Your answers of what to do in conversation make sense to me now, and it makes sense to me why I never understood them this way. I will appreciate NT replies to things I feel strongly about more in the

future, knowing that these "feeling" replies mean acceptance, as opposed to judgement. You have given me a lot, here. As for repeating a speaker's words, I tend to do that as a fallback position, and it does tend to net me more information. Is that ever the wrong thing to do, as in annoying the other person? Thanks, (who does play "hot potato", but would probably lose if I played it with feelings! ) Janet Zimmerman wrote: I feel frustrated for you... and me.. I just don't think there is one pat answer to this question. ?I know sometimes I 'move too fast' for my husband when I talk.. I change the subject which seems perfectly logical to me but he gets left behind and then annoyed (me too) because he thinks I changed the subject without warning. ?He doesn't seem to be able to 'track ' my thoughts. ?I don't have this problem with other people, so I know it is him. ?Now I try to be more careful, talk slower and 'listen' to myself more when I talk to him. ?I think we are doing better.? I think any of your answers below could be correct at any time... just can't tell you exactly when! :-) ? ? Every

situation is different, happens quickly and you can't have a do-over! ? all of the situations you mention here are legitimate and could be true on many occasions. ... and now I feel like I am at a real disadvantage because I so totally cannot advise you... I am never in my head like this to try to assess social situations... I don't look at people and think light, dark, shiny etc. ?I think my system would totally melt down if I tried to do so... It seems like trying to second guess so much in situations that could be very tricky. ? My style would probrably be to be verbal... just ask... "have I offended you" ? "is this a bad time" ?" I feel bad.." ?"I'm not ready to talk about his now" ?"what's going on with you" ?"can I help" ? 'Are you ok/" ? We all have problems reading cues.... some of us are more adept than others. ?? I think what I do(see

above) ?is more of a mirroring process... like something I feel on my skin rather than analyze with actual thoughts. ?Like standing too close to a heater and your body just moves you away. I don't think," Hmm, that is really hot. I think the temperature might burn my skin or perhaps curl the hairs on my arm OR melt my shirt. ?shall I be moving one inch away or maybe six inches... i know , I will split the difference and wait five minutes and do it again if I need to. alright, I solved that problem, it's time to move now. " ? I just move without thinking. ?I respond to cues without knowing it. ?I don't know that my brain is really engaged in a conscious way. ? I hope I am not being too silly. ?I dont mean to be but I am definately feeling the limitations of trying to communicate my thoughts about this on a key pad!!! ? snork snork. ?Now that was silly. ?sorry. ?Must get back on track... see, I gave myself a cue!? It seems to me that with my AS husband (the only as person I really have face-to face interaction with ) doesn't really look at people to see cues. ?He comes across as being uninterested or even worse, judgemental or disapproving because he does not react. ? He really is not paying attention or interested and it keeps him from having very deep interactions with people. ?He is fine with it, but never gets very deep with people like I do. ? Most people simply want to be acknowledged or 'heard'. ?you don't really have to do anything but indicate that you are hearing what they say. ?sometimes repeating their words back to them is all it takes. ? "I have this great idea... blah blah blah...." ?answer "I can tell you are pretty excited about your idea" ? ?NOT a judgement on the idea itself "that

*___* really *___* me off!" ?answer "this has you really worked up" ? ?N OT a solution or advice about the person's state.? I'm thinking that for me, it is kind of like a hot potato - as soon as it comes to me I hand it back rather than holding it and wondering what do I do now? ? there I go with a simile... do you do similies? ? .

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[Guest guest]

....

Thanks Well, if someone came to talk to me about AS on a bus, it's

the LAST place I'd want to talk about it. It's no one's business in

knowing about my personal life unless I choose to make it public.

That's where I put a boundary, and why I use to word " choose " as

opposed to " have " . I don't have to do anything, but I choose to do

something or not.

I had been talking with her online. Unfortunately, she met me on

this one bus route I had been taking and I had no idea it was her.

Then, she asked me if I was . I said I was, then she kept

talking and kept talking and kept talking. I was like, " I know I

have Asperger's and such, but I don't need for this person to ask me

about my life with Asperger's " . I felt it was a very inappropriate

time for her to talk with me about it. I didn't feel like talking

about it, number one. Number two, she should have asked me first if

I wanted to talk about it. If I see her on the bus tomorrow (she

claims she is going to the local CHADD meeting tomorrow night), I

will have a discussion with her in private about what took place on

the bus a week or so ago (and my displeasure about what she did).

Let's just say I am over that episode from a week or so ago.

However, this person WILL KNOW how I felt about it. I will approach

this very tactfully. I won't be like a " loose cannon " of sorts.

Yeah I know about the sun not going down on anger stuff.

Trust me when I say everyone (NT or AS) is better off by cooling down

before discussing an issue with someone. That is why I didn't storm

back at her on the bus and said what I could have.

>

> Here are a few that are hard for me to pick up on accurately:

> >

> > (1) I am talking about something, and the other person abruptly

> changes the subject. Are there non-verbal signals I should be

> interpreting to know which of several things it could be?

> >

> > 1A. The person does not want to talk about that subject right

> now. (Could be...)

> > 1B The person never wants to talk about that subjecr (OK, I

> exaggerate!)

> > 1C. That honestly reminded him or her of what the new subject

> is, but I missed the connection. (but if the person abruptly

changes

> it.. I guess I don't understand here)...

> > 1D. The person really wanted to change the subject to something

> (s)he had been waiting to tell me-- that's all! Nothing any deeper.

> (Could be as well...)

> > 1E. Spread-it-around- Sue just walked within earshot, and the

> person is letting me knw to chill for five minutes, till she

wanders

> away, out of earshot, once again. (Could be..)

> >

> > 1F. None of the above.

>

> ** 1 - From a non-verbal standpoint, I could see that the person

> might feel defensive, (a) if arms are crossed, ( no smile on

face,

> © person might be tapping foot. Could be some of the things you

> suggested, but also depends on the situation that is occuring at

the

> time when the subject is changed.

>

> > (2) Someone is offended at something (either that I did or said

> or failed to do or failed to say, or at someone else). How can I

> read offence in a face? How can I tell if it is directed at me?

> ** If you offended me, I would not have a smile on my face.

> Depending on how offensive it was, I might have my arms crossed,

not

> look at you directly, or may just not say anything to you (even if

> you were to continue saying things to me and wondered why I wasn't

> saying anything in return). I might decide also to minimize further

> conversation with you until I felt ready to tell you what you did

to

> upset me. I won't go off like a " quick firecracker " whatsoever.

>

> A

>

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[Guest guest]

,

Could you please tell me what this literature is? I would like to see

the exercise.

>snip

>She gave me some literature, and there was a cool exercise for AS folk

about following the lead of others, and not bringing up a subject out of

the blue- very helpful for me.

Thanks,

Ann

[Guest guest]

I give credit where credit is due, thank you It's not like I just

decided to go and cite an article you wrote and not give you credit

for it. That reminds me of the time *reminding myself to shut up*

(laughing)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Janet,

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > > I wish I could come over and have tea with you, or invite

you

> > > > over, so that you could see someone who trusts you but still

needs

> > > > major help in understanding and interpreting social

situations --

> > > > someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in

your

> > > > life. Patience and clarification really go a long way toward

> > helping

> > > > us.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Recent Activity

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> > > > > Visit Your Group

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> > > > > easier than ever.

> > > > >

> > > > > Healthy Eating

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> > > > >

> > > > > Women of Curves

> > > > > on Yahoo! Groups

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> > > > > to discuss Curves.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > .

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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>

[Guest guest]

I have been reading your posts as well, and have made the same kinds

of observations. I am saddened to see your relationship be as it is.

> > I feel frustrated for you... and me.. I just don't think there

is

> > one pat answer to this question. ?I know sometimes I 'move too

> > fast' for my husband when I talk.. I change the subject which

seems

> > perfectly logical to me but he gets left behind and then annoyed

> > (me too) because he thinks I changed the subject without

warning. ?

> > He doesn't seem to be able to 'track ' my thoughts. ?I don't

have

> > this problem with other people, so I know it is him. ?Now I try

to

> > be more careful, talk slower and 'listen' to myself more when I

> > talk to him. ?I think we are doing better.?

> >

> > I think any of your answers below could be correct at any

time...

> > just can't tell you exactly when! :-) ? ? Every situation is

> > different, happens quickly and you can't have a do-over! ?

> >

> > all of the situations you mention here are legitimate and could

be

> > true on many occasions. ... and now I feel like I am at a real

> > disadvantage because I so totally cannot advise you... I am

never

> > in my head like this to try to assess social situations... I

don't

> > look at people and think light, dark, shiny etc. ?I think my

system

> > would totally melt down if I tried to do so... It seems like

trying

> > to second guess so much in situations that could be very

tricky. ?

> > My style would probrably be to be verbal... just ask... " have I

> > offended you " ? " is this a bad time " ? " I feel bad.. " ? " I'm not

> > ready to talk about his now " ? " what's going on with you " ? " can I

> > help " ? 'Are you ok/ " ? We all have problems reading cues....

some

> > of us are more adept than others. ??

> >

> > I think what I do(see above) ?is more of a mirroring process...

> > like something I feel on my skin rather than analyze with actual

> > thoughts. ?Like standing too close to a heater and your body

just

> > moves you away. I don't think, " Hmm, that is really hot. I think

> > the temperature might burn my skin or perhaps curl the hairs on

my

> > arm OR melt my shirt. ?shall I be moving one inch away or maybe

six

> > inches... i know , I will split the difference and wait five

> > minutes and do it again if I need to. alright, I solved that

> > problem, it's time to move now. " ? I just move without

thinking. ?

> > I respond to cues without knowing it. ?I don't know that my

brain

> > is really engaged in a conscious way. ? I hope I am not being

too

> > silly. ?I dont mean to be but I am definately feeling the

> > limitations of trying to communicate my thoughts about this on a

> > key pad!!! ? snork snork. ?Now that was silly. ?sorry. ?Must get

> > back on track... see, I gave myself a cue!?

> >

> > It seems to me that with my AS husband (the only as person I

really

> > have face-to face interaction with ) doesn't really look at

people

> > to see cues. ?He comes across as being uninterested or even

worse,

> > judgemental or disapproving because he does not react. ? He

really

> > is not paying attention or interested and it keeps him from

having

> > very deep interactions with people. ?He is fine with it, but

never

> > gets very deep with people like I do. ?

> >

> > Most people simply want to be acknowledged or 'heard'. ?you

don't

> > really have to do anything but indicate that you are hearing

what

> > they say. ?sometimes repeating their words back to them is all

it

> > takes. ?

> >

> > " I have this great idea... blah blah blah.... " ?answer " I can

tell

> > you are pretty excited about your idea " ? ?NOT a judgement on

the

> > idea itself

> >

> > " that *___* really *___* me off! " ?answer " this has you really

> > worked up " ? ?N OT a solution or advice about the person's state.?

> >

> > I'm thinking that for me, it is kind of like a hot potato - as

soon

> > as it comes to me I hand it back rather than holding it and

> > wondering what do I do now? ? there I go with a simile... do you

do

> > similies? ?

> > .

> >

> >

> >

> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

> >

> >

>