New Thread - Loyalty to the marriage vs Loyalty to partner

January 3, 2008

In a recent post I made the following

statement.

<SNIP

" I have often thought that one

of the reasons why AS people stay loyal to the marriage is because they

do not want things to change. Note that I said " loyal to the

marriage " rather than loyal to the partner, which may not be a distinction

that has been explored on this list, but correct me if I am wrong. The

problem is I think, that a relationship changes because it grows and as

an AS person I have not grown as my wife has. So the dynamic changed

and I believe that AS partners fight that change and want their partners

to not change also. But that is denying their right to experience

life in their own way. "

end SNIP>

I think that this is an important distinction

and have started a new subject to see what others on the list think and

have experienced.

My own experience is that like any institution,

be it marriage or whatever, that there is an inherent desire for an AS

person to preserve that which is comfortable and meets our needs. From

a relationship perspective, even when things are difficult, there is a

need to maintain the status quo in terms of roles etc. The inflexibility

of an AS neurology influences how that relationship suffers, but the overriding

aim for me has been to preserve my role as breadwinner and provider even

when my own family were questioning my lifestyle and response to them.

This is more to do with maintaining

a sense of worth and fooling myself that I am contributing in a real way

to the viability of the family. One of the central issues here is

that the roles of the other family members tend to stay fixed in my mind

and if the family members try to change that then there is resistance to

it. I have only realised this over the last 12 months as I have become

aware that as my partner changes I reacted by trying to prevent such a

change occurring as it upset the dynamic of the current role based scenario.

This is where the accusation of manipulation and control come into

play.

I have recently read a book on the Seven

Principles of a Happy Marriage by Gottman. He makes the point

about how couples who follow and do not change role based behaviours tend

to develop resentments that can seriously undermine a relationship. Men

need to open up to accepting being influenced by their partners as this

benefits both parties. Women in general tend to raise first the relationship

issues while men generally try to ignore or avoid them. This is even

more a feature of an NT/AS relationship. One of the tools described

is to work out what is a situational issue and a perpetual issue. Situational

issues can be fixed by a) listening respectfully to the complaint of the

other person, making your own position clear and refrain from attacking

your partner personally, c) acknowledging that there is more to gain from

working on a solution together rather than taking polarised positions,

and d) following through on any actions that have been agreed.

A perpetual issue needs to be treated differently as there needs to be

an acceptance by you or your partner that there is a deeper issue that

needs compromise to avoid damaging the relationship. I highly recommend

this book as it does use very good examples of how couples with the best

of intentions can lose perspective that compromise not only the relationship

but themselves by not dealing with the perpetual issues.

So

to tie this back to the distinction between loyalty to the institution,

be it marriage or de facto relationship and loyalty to the partner, the

message is that AS need to see both as indistinguishable so that any threat

to the marriage is also seen as a threat to their partner and invest any

response with the due diligence needed to preserve respect for themselves

and each other. From an AS context, the major deficit that I am conscious

of is that I have not allowed myself to make such a distinction which is

not obvious to me but is to my NT partner. The major perpetual issue

in AS/NT relationship is the AS itself which requires redefining what changes

are required to make positive adpatation for both parties. Bur essentially

it is accepting that AS people need to be willing to be influenced by their

partners for their mutual benefit.

Greg

dx AS at 53

January 4, 2008

Greg, you've surpassed yourself! Doubly superb!

There's *still* just a little bit to be understood; to be said. But

you're doing a masterful job, and are heading arrow-straight in the

right direction.

It's so *nice* to see someone do that!! ...I'll leave you to it.

- Bill, 75, AS

Greg Greer wrote:

>

> In a recent post I made the following statement.

>

> <SNIP

> " I have often thought that one of the reasons why AS people stay loyal

> to the marriage is because they do not want things to change. Note that

> I said " loyal to the marriage " rather than loyal to the partner, which

> may not be a distinction that has been explored on this list, but

> correct me if I am wrong. The problem is I think, that a relationship

> changes because it grows and as an AS person I have not grown as my wife

> has. So the dynamic changed and I believe that AS partners fight that

> change and want their partners to not change also. But that is denying

> their right to experience life in their own way. "

> end SNIP>

>

> I think that this is an important distinction and have started a new

> subject to see what others on the list think and have experienced.

>

> My own experience is that like any institution, be it marriage or

> whatever, that there is an inherent desire for an AS person to preserve

> that which is comfortable and meets our needs. From a relationship

> perspective, even when things are difficult, there is a need to maintain

> the status quo in terms of roles etc. The inflexibility of an AS

> neurology influences how that relationship suffers, but the overriding

> aim for me has been to preserve my role as breadwinner and provider even

> when my own family were questioning my lifestyle and response to them.

>

> This is more to do with maintaining a sense of worth and fooling myself

> that I am contributing in a real way to the viability of the family.

> One of the central issues here is that the roles of the other family

> members tend to stay fixed in my mind and if the family members try to

> change that then there is resistance to it. I have only realised this

> over the last 12 months as I have become aware that as my partner

> changes I reacted by trying to prevent such a change occurring as it

> upset the dynamic of the current role based scenario. This is where

> the accusation of manipulation and control come into play.

>

> I have recently read a book on the Seven Principles of a Happy Marriage

> by Gottman. He makes the point about how couples who follow and do

> not change role based behaviours tend to develop resentments that can

> seriously undermine a relationship. Men need to open up to accepting

> being influenced by their partners as this benefits both parties. Women

> in general tend to raise first the relationship issues while men

> generally try to ignore or avoid them. This is even more a feature of

> an NT/AS relationship. One of the tools described is to work out what

> is a situational issue and a perpetual issue. Situational issues can be

> fixed by a) listening respectfully to the complaint of the other person,

> making your own position clear and refrain from attacking your

> partner personally, c) acknowledging that there is more to gain from

> working on a solution together rather than taking polarised positions,

> and d) following through on any actions that have been agreed.

>

> A perpetual issue needs to be treated differently as there needs to be

> an acceptance by you or your partner that there is a deeper issue that

> needs compromise to avoid damaging the relationship. I highly recommend

> this book as it does use very good examples of how couples with the best

> of intentions can lose perspective that compromise not only the

> relationship but themselves by not dealing with the perpetual issues.

>

> So to tie this back to the distinction between loyalty to the

> institution, be it marriage or de facto relationship and loyalty to the

> partner, the message is that AS need to see both as indistinguishable so

> that any threat to the marriage is also seen as a threat to their

> partner and invest any response with the due diligence needed to

> preserve respect for themselves and each other. From an AS context, the

> major deficit that I am conscious of is that I have not allowed myself

> to make such a distinction which is not obvious to me but is to my NT

> partner. The major perpetual issue in AS/NT relationship is the AS

> itself which requires redefining what changes are required to make

> positive adpatation for both parties. Bur essentially it is accepting

> that AS people need to be willing to be influenced by their partners for

> their mutual benefit.

>

> Greg

>

> dx AS at 53

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

January 4, 2008

Thanks again Bill. I think many on the

list have been inspired by your own journey in this. However, with

understanding must come action.

We will see.

Cheers

Greg

dx AS at 53

WD Loughman

Sent by: aspires-relationships

04/01/2008 04:51 PM

Please respond to

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Subject

Re: New Thread

- Loyalty to the marriage vs Loyalty to partner

Greg, you've surpassed yourself! Doubly superb!

There's *still* just a little bit to be understood; to be said. But

you're doing a masterful job, and are heading arrow-straight in the

right direction.

It's so *nice* to see someone do that!! ...I'll leave you to it.

- Bill, 75, AS

Greg Greer wrote:

>

> In a recent post I made the following statement.

>

> <SNIP

> " I have often thought that one of the reasons why AS people

stay loyal

> to the marriage is because they do not want things to change. Note

that

> I said " loyal to the marriage " rather than loyal to the

partner, which

> may not be a distinction that has been explored on this list, but

> correct me if I am wrong. The problem is I think, that a relationship

> changes because it grows and as an AS person I have not grown as my

wife

> has. So the dynamic changed and I believe that AS partners fight that

> change and want their partners to not change also. But that is denying

> their right to experience life in their own way. "

> end SNIP>

>

> I think that this is an important distinction and have started a new

> subject to see what others on the list think and have experienced.

>

> My own experience is that like any institution, be it marriage or

> whatever, that there is an inherent desire for an AS person to preserve

> that which is comfortable and meets our needs. From a relationship

> perspective, even when things are difficult, there is a need to maintain

> the status quo in terms of roles etc. The inflexibility of an AS

> neurology influences how that relationship suffers, but the overriding

> aim for me has been to preserve my role as breadwinner and provider

even

> when my own family were questioning my lifestyle and response to them.

>

> This is more to do with maintaining a sense of worth and fooling myself

> that I am contributing in a real way to the viability of the family.

> One of the central issues here is that the roles of the other family

> members tend to stay fixed in my mind and if the family members try

to

> change that then there is resistance to it. I have only realised this

> over the last 12 months as I have become aware that as my partner

> changes I reacted by trying to prevent such a change occurring as

it

> upset the dynamic of the current role based scenario. This is where

> the accusation of manipulation and control come into play.

>

> I have recently read a book on the Seven Principles of a Happy Marriage

> by Gottman. He makes the point about how couples who follow and

do

> not change role based behaviours tend to develop resentments that

can

> seriously undermine a relationship. Men need to open up to accepting

> being influenced by their partners as this benefits both parties.

Women

> in general tend to raise first the relationship issues while men

> generally try to ignore or avoid them. This is even more a feature

of

> an NT/AS relationship. One of the tools described is to work out what

> is a situational issue and a perpetual issue. Situational issues can

be

> fixed by a) listening respectfully to the complaint of the other person,

> making your own position clear and refrain from attacking your

> partner personally, c) acknowledging that there is more to gain from

> working on a solution together rather than taking polarised positions,

> and d) following through on any actions that have been agreed.

>

> A perpetual issue needs to be treated differently as there needs to

be

> an acceptance by you or your partner that there is a deeper issue

that

> needs compromise to avoid damaging the relationship. I highly recommend

> this book as it does use very good examples of how couples with the

best

> of intentions can lose perspective that compromise not only the

> relationship but themselves by not dealing with the perpetual issues.

>

> So to tie this back to the distinction between loyalty to the

> institution, be it marriage or de facto relationship and loyalty to

the

> partner, the message is that AS need to see both as indistinguishable

so

> that any threat to the marriage is also seen as a threat to their

> partner and invest any response with the due diligence needed to

> preserve respect for themselves and each other. From an AS context,

the

> major deficit that I am conscious of is that I have not allowed myself

> to make such a distinction which is not obvious to me but is to my

NT

> partner. The major perpetual issue in AS/NT relationship is the AS

> itself which requires redefining what changes are required to make

> positive adpatation for both parties. Bur essentially it is accepting

> that AS people need to be willing to be influenced by their partners

for

> their mutual benefit.

>

> Greg

>

> dx AS at 53

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

January 4, 2008

Hi Greg

My husband has just been diagnosed with AS (aged 50). The methods you

describe have kept our marriage and love alive over the last twenty

years. I think I realised very early on in our marriage that it was my

responsibility to 'sort' issues out, which were mainly due to a lack

of understanding by my beloved husband - especially in areas of

emotion. We developed a way of signalling to each other that wasn't

confrontational, we used the phrase 'I am storing up resentment for

later' I can't even remember where the phrase came from but it let the

other person know things weren't right and triggered discussions.

I think it is also worth remembering that us NT's don't always like

change and at times will actively resist it, but the underlying

reasons for our disliking the change are normally different from our

AS partners. For example my husband's hours for work changed, he was

uncomfortable because he would be working with different people, same

job just different co-workers. I was furious and really angry that

he'd accepted it without even discussing it with me because it left me

totally responsible for child care (both our kids have far more severe

ASD) and would have a major impact on our home life.

Same change, same emotions of uncertainty and unhappiness but caused

by very different reasons.

This is my first post, and I really want to thank everyone on here

because you are helping both me and my husband work through our issues

so we 'don't store up resentment for later'!

Lizx

> >

> > In a recent post I made the following statement.

> >

> > <SNIP

> > " I have often thought that one of the reasons why AS people stay

loyal

> > to the marriage is because they do not want things to change. Note

that

> > I said " loyal to the marriage " rather than loyal to the partner,

which

> > may not be a distinction that has been explored on this list, but

> > correct me if I am wrong. The problem is I think, that a relationship

> > changes because it grows and as an AS person I have not grown as

my wife

>

> > has. So the dynamic changed and I believe that AS partners fight that

> > change and want their partners to not change also. But that is

denying

> > their right to experience life in their own way. "

> > end SNIP>

> >

> > I think that this is an important distinction and have started a new

> > subject to see what others on the list think and have experienced.

> >

> > My own experience is that like any institution, be it marriage or

> > whatever, that there is an inherent desire for an AS person to

preserve

> > that which is comfortable and meets our needs. From a relationship

> > perspective, even when things are difficult, there is a need to

maintain

>

> > the status quo in terms of roles etc. The inflexibility of an AS

> > neurology influences how that relationship suffers, but the

overriding

> > aim for me has been to preserve my role as breadwinner and

provider even

>

> > when my own family were questioning my lifestyle and response to them.

> >

> > This is more to do with maintaining a sense of worth and fooling

myself

> > that I am contributing in a real way to the viability of the family.

> > One of the central issues here is that the roles of the other family

> > members tend to stay fixed in my mind and if the family members

try to

> > change that then there is resistance to it. I have only realised this

> > over the last 12 months as I have become aware that as my partner

> > changes I reacted by trying to prevent such a change occurring as it

> > upset the dynamic of the current role based scenario. This is where

> > the accusation of manipulation and control come into play.

> >

> > I have recently read a book on the Seven Principles of a Happy

Marriage

> > by Gottman. He makes the point about how couples who follow

and do

> > not change role based behaviours tend to develop resentments that can

> > seriously undermine a relationship. Men need to open up to accepting

> > being influenced by their partners as this benefits both parties.

Women

> > in general tend to raise first the relationship issues while men

> > generally try to ignore or avoid them. This is even more a feature of

> > an NT/AS relationship. One of the tools described is to work out what

> > is a situational issue and a perpetual issue. Situational issues

can be

> > fixed by a) listening respectfully to the complaint of the other

person,

>

> > making your own position clear and refrain from attacking your

> > partner personally, c) acknowledging that there is more to gain from

> > working on a solution together rather than taking polarised

positions,

> > and d) following through on any actions that have been agreed.

> >

> > A perpetual issue needs to be treated differently as there needs

to be

> > an acceptance by you or your partner that there is a deeper issue

that

> > needs compromise to avoid damaging the relationship. I highly

recommend

> > this book as it does use very good examples of how couples with

the best

>

> > of intentions can lose perspective that compromise not only the

> > relationship but themselves by not dealing with the perpetual issues.

> >

> > So to tie this back to the distinction between loyalty to the

> > institution, be it marriage or de facto relationship and loyalty

to the

> > partner, the message is that AS need to see both as

indistinguishable so

>

> > that any threat to the marriage is also seen as a threat to their

> > partner and invest any response with the due diligence needed to

> > preserve respect for themselves and each other. From an AS

context, the

> > major deficit that I am conscious of is that I have not allowed

myself

> > to make such a distinction which is not obvious to me but is to my NT

> > partner. The major perpetual issue in AS/NT relationship is the AS

> > itself which requires redefining what changes are required to make

> > positive adpatation for both parties. Bur essentially it is accepting

> > that AS people need to be willing to be influenced by their

partners for

>

> > their mutual benefit.

> >

> > Greg

> >

> > dx AS at 53

>

> - Bill, 75, AS

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

January 4, 2008

Liz,

Thanks so much for saying this!! It's so nice to get confirmation of this from an NT! I was starting to think maybe I was more nuts than my diagnosis says. LOL

Jennie AS

>>Lizx wrote: I think it is also worth remembering that us NT's don't always likechange and at times will actively resist it, but the underlyingreasons for our disliking the change are normally different from ourAS partners.<<

January 4, 2008

Thanks for the book Greg. Sounds like sound advise. For us, discussing isn't the problem, though my husband (AS) will avoid the discussion at all costs. When we do talk, it's good. The problem is that change doesn't happen, despite what I believe is a sincere wish to have that happen. We've talked many times about his being home to join the family at the dinner table. He agrees it's important, etc. It's happened only six times - maybe - and he'd prefer to read his newspaper during the meal. If we talk about it, he agrees that he should "be" there, but it doesn't happen. I used to build resentment, but now I see these intractibles as AS related and not his fault. I'm very disappointed, but I let it pass.DanekaWD Loughman wrote: Greg, you've surpassed yourself! Doubly superb! There's *still* just a little bit to be understood; to be said. But you're doing a masterful job, and are heading arrow-straight in the right direction. It's so *nice* to see someone do that!! ...I'll leave you to it. - Bill, 75, AS Greg Greer wrote: > > In a recent post I made the following statement. > > <SNIP > " I have often thought that one of the reasons why AS people stay loyal > to the marriage is because they do not want things to change. Note that > I said "loyal to the marriage" rather than loyal to the partner, which > may not be a

distinction that has been explored on this list, but > correct me if I am wrong. The problem is I think, that a relationship > changes because it grows and as an AS person I have not grown as my wife > has. So the dynamic changed and I believe that AS partners fight that > change and want their partners to not change also. But that is denying > their right to experience life in their own way." > end SNIP> > > I think that this is an important distinction and have started a new > subject to see what others on the list think and have experienced. > > My own experience is that like any institution, be it marriage or > whatever, that there is an inherent desire for an AS person to preserve > that which is comfortable and meets our needs. From a relationship > perspective, even when things are difficult, there is a need to maintain > the status quo in

terms of roles etc. The inflexibility of an AS > neurology influences how that relationship suffers, but the overriding > aim for me has been to preserve my role as breadwinner and provider even > when my own family were questioning my lifestyle and response to them. > > This is more to do with maintaining a sense of worth and fooling myself > that I am contributing in a real way to the viability of the family. > One of the central issues here is that the roles of the other family > members tend to stay fixed in my mind and if the family members try to > change that then there is resistance to it. I have only realised this > over the last 12 months as I have become aware that as my partner > changes I reacted by trying to prevent such a change occurring as it > upset the dynamic of the current role based scenario. This is where > the accusation of manipulation and

control come into play. > > I have recently read a book on the Seven Principles of a Happy Marriage > by Gottman. He makes the point about how couples who follow and do > not change role based behaviours tend to develop resentments that can > seriously undermine a relationship. Men need to open up to accepting > being influenced by their partners as this benefits both parties. Women > in general tend to raise first the relationship issues while men > generally try to ignore or avoid them. This is even more a feature of > an NT/AS relationship. One of the tools described is to work out what > is a situational issue and a perpetual issue. Situational issues can be > fixed by a) listening respectfully to the complaint of the other person, > making your own position clear and refrain from attacking your > partner personally, c) acknowledging that there is more

to gain from > working on a solution together rather than taking polarised positions, > and d) following through on any actions that have been agreed. > > A perpetual issue needs to be treated differently as there needs to be > an acceptance by you or your partner that there is a deeper issue that > needs compromise to avoid damaging the relationship. I highly recommend > this book as it does use very good examples of how couples with the best > of intentions can lose perspective that compromise not only the > relationship but themselves by not dealing with the perpetual issues. > > So to tie this back to the distinction between loyalty to the > institution, be it marriage or de facto relationship and loyalty to the > partner, the message is that AS need to see both as indistinguishable so > that any threat to the marriage is also seen as a threat to their

> partner and invest any response with the due diligence needed to > preserve respect for themselves and each other. From an AS context, the > major deficit that I am conscious of is that I have not allowed myself > to make such a distinction which is not obvious to me but is to my NT > partner. The major perpetual issue in AS/NT relationship is the AS > itself which requires redefining what changes are required to make > positive adpatation for both parties. Bur essentially it is accepting > that AS people need to be willing to be influenced by their partners for > their mutual benefit. > > Greg > > dx AS at 53 - Bill, 75, AS -- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

January 5, 2008

Hi Liz,

Thanks for responding to my post.

No doubt about the uncertainty regarding change. I suspect

though that it is the response to changes that defines the AS or NT orientation.

I am very conscious of my response to uncertainty and that is to

try and deal with it myself, rather than open up and turn to my partner.

She on the other hand has been forced into dealing with things on

her own due to the emotional distance that has occurred.

It seems at 54 years of age I have

a lot to learn and I need to learn that from my partner.

" crazymum181 "

Sent by: aspires-relationships

04/01/2008 11:15 PM