Epiphany of sorts - Making a difference in AS/NT relationships

[Guest guest]

I sent this note to see if anyone has

been able to deal with the distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS

spouses when they say they are trying to change.

I have found one of the most negative

responses we can make to an individual iis withdrawal and sulking which

is what I have done habitually throughout our married life. Strange

that what you should value becomes more valuable when you have lost it.

Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if

that is so I will need a lot of courage to take the necessary steps to

make the most of it. I think the penny dropped when the counsellor

helped me understand the consequences words and lack of action have, and

how damaging it can be to a relationship. One of the things that

helped me understand this was the following:

We may think that we have to do things

or say things rather than realising that we can choose to do so or not

to do so. I told my wife that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and

that realising that is a choice I made means that I am really responsible

for it. So the counsellor helped me understand that I can choose

to withdraw or I can choose to engage with my wife. That in itself

is a very powerful message. So when I do not " get it " or do or

say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to choose how I respond

not fall back on old negative habits.

I have just now set a goal of trying

hard to make a difference within 3 months. I got home on Friday night and

told my wife that I am going to really try hard to fit in more and listen

to her point of view and try not to make it about me all the time. I

have read a book called the seven principles of making marriage work

by Gottman. This has helped me realise that there are tools

I can use to make a better efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning

struck or who hit me on the head. To quote the words she used

" So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you

want a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and

you were physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life

and the kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find

that this is now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have

so far? Why should I take a risk of being let down again? Just

because you want it now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base

a relationship on that you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers

so how can you change?

So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help. I

have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate

conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences.

I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch

a movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about

the garden and what she may like to do with it. The response so far

has been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her

to roll over and cause more pain.

Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears etc.

but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair

to her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number

of times I have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that

I intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work.

The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with

her when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at home.

Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very protective

of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for me.

Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

clean up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can

and if she agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing

I say hurts her so that I can understand what or how I say things causes

hurt. She believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the

knife so to speak. Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels

hurt is the major problem. It seems I have to be so careful about

what I say and have to second guess how she might take it.

Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of

it. I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife

and I will finally either make it together or make it apart. Even

gaining her respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia. This

translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and thus

inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

Greg

dx AS at 53

[Guest guest]

I'll reply at the top, too much to blow by blow comment.

I'm having trouble working out where you are at.

At the end you say something alarming, recounting a comment from a

therapist who sound as though they are clueless. And you then question a

fundamental about AS?

There is no emotional engagement, period. I sure hope the therapist has

not fallen for a great big mistake, treating you like most NT blokes.

I quote Maxine Aston.

" One of the biggest problems for those new to the condition is to

understand how it differs from “typical bloke†behaviour involving

selfishness or egotism, according to Maxine Aston, the only Relate

counsellor specialising in Asperger’s.

“The male chauvinist, or man behaving badly, has a choice: he can sit

down and empathise with his wife, and he doesn’t have to go to the

football match. If he has been inconsiderate he has the capacity to

recognise it and show remorse,†she said. “A person with Asperger’s

doesn’t have a choice. It ’s not that they won’t empathise — they

can’t.†"

(Relate is the name of the UK marriage guidance / counselling service)

Sorry Greg if I am harsh.

I'll explain some of how it is for me, something I rarely do here

because I don't like talking about people who are not present.

As far as the above is concerned I am a blank. Ordinary dialogs etc. no

problem, talk, laugh, joke with people, taken for normal. The rest is

broken. I even have trouble recognising people, if no-where near face

identity blind.

I have considerable problem with my wife although she has thankfully

understood and accepts that nothing is aimed at her. That is the primary

problem for NT, they assume wrongly that behaviour is aimed at them

personally. If you are not present it is aimed at them when in reality

you are just somewhere else, nothing to do with the NT.

A problem I have, perhaps to an exceptional degree and made worse by

past abuse (memory problems) is extreme single focus. I need to explain

what I mean, even if only with a couple of simple examples.

If I start washing the dishes my wife has a tendency to see a sitting

target and start talking. If it is more than trivial and it usually is,

these days I simply ask her to stop, please. Now she understands this is

no more than a minor annoyance but makes life a lot more comfortable for me.

I cannot take part in anything that needs more than very slight

attention, certain don't ask questions or mention anything needing

action. If that happens all I can do is stop, drag my mind to whatever

it is she wants, which takes lets say 10 seconds, talk or whatever, by

which time the water is going cold, switch back... and I bet she would

feed in the next thing...

So these days, an unsaid, shut up. Not meant in a bad way, just a

practical solution.

There is a further aspect to the above, pardon, I missed the subject. So

she repeats the last part, sorry, I missed the first words... and this

can repeat again and again. You see I don't comprehend, just there is a

noise starting, can't make sense, and certainly not hear the last part

and work out what was said first. Guessing, yeah sometimes but

historically that is very bad, mishearing is a don't do with the missus.

Same goes if I am driving. No way unless nothing is going on and that is

my call, I'm doing the driving. These days if she says much I ask her to

hold it. From my point of view this is bad because I then have the

difficult task of trying to drive and hold in mind I shut her up. When

things clear she can talk, not to much or too rapid. This is literally

dangerous.

Another attention thing is standing right in the way, crowding, not just

happens but really awkward. My natural reaction is anxiety and withdraw,

move away from anyone who does that.

Associated with this is not being able to predict where people are going

to move.

Way way back I used to walk in the roadway in a town, and very fast. I

now realise it was a workaround for the collision problem. Today towns

are so overcrowded, and people so sluggish, just don't go into town.

I apolgise if any of that is offensive, not meant to be. Quite possible

I have picked up the wrong end of the stick, it is though a key

behaviour for all, check with the other person, did you hear right.

Greg Greer wrote:

> I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the distrust

> NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they are trying

> to change.

>

[Guest guest]

Tim,I should have been more attentive tothe context of the psychologist's statement. The emotional dispraxiais not total and I assume there are varying degrees of it.His verbatim words were that I am Aspergersin the relationship with my wife. That means I think that I havethe AS tendencies that have been magnified by the diabolical dichotomyof a very NT partner and an AS husband. I seem to conduct relationshipsadequately without too much trouble unless there is a lot of confrontationwhich drives me into withdrawal. It is a protective mechanism thatI have assumed as an adaptive behaviour to protect myself due to emotionallimitations that I have. I am not very social normally, and rarelyfeel the need to seek people out for company although I try to treat everyonewith politeness. However there are times when I actively avoid anycontact when I am feeling anxious or need to think and work things through.My apologies for not being specificenough and confusing you.Gregdx AS at 53. Tim Channon Sent by: aspires-relationships 14/01/2008 02:14 PMPlease respond toaspires-relationships Toaspires-relationships ccSubjectRe: Epiphanyof sorts - Making a difference in AS/NT relationshipsI'll reply at the top, too much to blow by blow comment.I'm having trouble working out where you are at.At the end you say something alarming, recounting a comment from a therapist who sound as though they are clueless. And you then questiona fundamental about AS?There is no emotional engagement, period. I sure hope the therapist hasnot fallen for a great big mistake, treating you like most NT blokes.I quote Maxine Aston. " One of the biggest problems for those new to the condition is tounderstand how it differs from “typical bloke†behaviour involvingselfishness or egotism, according to Maxine Aston, the only Relatecounsellor specialising in Asperger’s.“The male chauvinist, or man behaving badly, has a choice: he can sitdown and empathise with his wife, and he doesn’t have to go to the football match. If he has been inconsiderate he has the capacity to recognise it and show remorse,†she said. “A person with Asperger’sdoesn’t have a choice. It ’s not that they won’t empathise — they can’t.†" (Relate is the name of the UK marriage guidance / counselling service)Sorry Greg if I am harsh.I'll explain some of how it is for me, something I rarely do here because I don't like talking about people who are not present.As far as the above is concerned I am a blank. Ordinary dialogs etc. noproblem, talk, laugh, joke with people, taken for normal. The rest is broken. I even have trouble recognising people, if no-where near face identity blind.I have considerable problem with my wife although she has thankfully understood and accepts that nothing is aimed at her. That is the primaryproblem for NT, they assume wrongly that behaviour is aimed at them personally. If you are not present it is aimed at them when in realityyou are just somewhere else, nothing to do with the NT.A problem I have, perhaps to an exceptional degree and made worse by past abuse (memory problems) is extreme single focus. I need to explainwhat I mean, even if only with a couple of simple examples.If I start washing the dishes my wife has a tendency to see a sitting target and start talking. If it is more than trivial and it usually is,these days I simply ask her to stop, please. Now she understands this isno more than a minor annoyance but makes life a lot more comfortable forme.I cannot take part in anything that needs more than very slight attention, certain don't ask questions or mention anything needing action. If that happens all I can do is stop, drag my mind to whateverit is she wants, which takes lets say 10 seconds, talk or whatever, bywhich time the water is going cold, switch back... and I bet she wouldfeed in the next thing...So these days, an unsaid, shut up. Not meant in a bad way, just a practical solution.There is a further aspect to the above, pardon, I missed the subject. Soshe repeats the last part, sorry, I missed the first words... and thiscan repeat again and again. You see I don't comprehend, just there is anoise starting, can't make sense, and certainly not hear the last partand work out what was said first. Guessing, yeah sometimes but historically that is very bad, mishearing is a don't do with the missus.Same goes if I am driving. No way unless nothing is going on and that ismy call, I'm doing the driving. These days if she says much I ask her tohold it. From my point of view this is bad because I then have the difficult task of trying to drive and hold in mind I shut her up. Whenthings clear she can talk, not to much or too rapid. This is literallydangerous.Another attention thing is standing right in the way, crowding, not justhappens but really awkward. My natural reaction is anxiety and withdraw,move away from anyone who does that.Associated with this is not being able to predict where people are goingto move.Way way back I used to walk in the roadway in a town, and very fast. Inow realise it was a workaround for the collision problem. Today townsare so overcrowded, and people so sluggish, just don't go into town.I apolgise if any of that is offensive, not meant to be. Quite possibleI have picked up the wrong end of the stick, it is though a key behaviour for all, check with the other person, did you hear right.Greg Greer wrote:> I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the distrust> NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they aretrying > to change.>

[Guest guest]

I'm responding as the wife of someone with Asperger's, and I don't

know if I have distrust with my spouse, but then he has been able to

verbalize that he has no interest in changing himself to improve our

marriage. We will have been married for 25 years this week. I would

say that we have more of a " business arrangement " than a marriage,

everything has always been geared to what he is comfortable with,

and he is not very affectioanate, or romantic, and has been very

verbal about not wanting to be, " too much pressure " . We have a son

who has been medically recognized as being AS, and that enabled him

to receive services at the school. I don't believe that my husband

believes he has AS, he has not been medically recognized, but he is

exactly like our son, and we got to observe part of the testing,

with our son, and my husband had a hard time relating what was going

on and what the signifance of the testing ment. We have three boys

total, all have add/adhd, one has AS and one has ODD (oppositional

defiant disorder). Since my husband has been very vocal about what

works for him, (of course he wasn't at first!) I have always made a

point of taking the time to do something special for occaisions that

are important to me. It was hard in the beginning of our marriage,

and I used to wonder what had I done, or didn't do? But once we got

our son's diagnosis, and I started researching materials on spouses

of AS, it was like a light bulb went on. I don't take it personally,

intelluctually, but since this is a milestone year (25th) and the

plans I made, had to be cancelled, emotionally it is really hard. I

have a lot of interests, and my plate is usually full, with the

kids, and now I am a major care provider for my mother. But there

really isn't anyone who can understand the loneliness, that comes

with an AS relationship.

On a side note, if anyone knows of a group of people that are

married to or have family relationships with AS, I would like to

know, as I feel very isolated most of the

time, and I have just thought to reach out on the web, and came

across this group.

Angie

>

> I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

distrust

> NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they

are trying

> to change.

>

> I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

habitually

> throughout our married life. Strange that what you should value

becomes

> more valuable when you have lost it.

>

> Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot

of

> courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I

think the

> penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the

consequences

> words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a

> relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this

was the

> following:

>

> We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

realising

> that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that I

had

> chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a

choice I

> made means that I am really responsible for it. So the counsellor

helped

> me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to

engage with

> my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do

not " get

> it " or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to

choose how

> I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

>

> I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

within 3

> months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am

going to

> really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and

try not

> to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

seven

> principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

helped me

> realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf.

She

> wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the

head. To

> quote the words she used

>

> " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

you want

> a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and you

were

> physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life

and the

> kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that

this is

> now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have so

far? Why

> should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you

want it

> now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a relationship

on that

> you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you

change?

>

> So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her

help. I have

> said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

initiate

> conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

experiences. I

> want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

happy

> alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a

movie

> rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the

garden

> and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has been

> ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to

roll

> over and cause more pain.

>

> Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her

fears etc.

> but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

her the

> questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of

times I

> have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I intend

to spend

> more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real

challenge

> for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am home

and not

> problem solving something from work or at home. Also I need to

connect

> with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their

mother and

> are not inclined to make it easy for me.

>

> Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

clean up

> my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

if she

> agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say

hurts her

> so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt.

She

> believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so

to speak.

> Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the

major

> problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and

have to

> second guess how she might take it.

>

> Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of

it. I

> do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

finally

> either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

respect back

> may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

>

> BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.

This

> translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions

and thus

> inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

>

> Greg

> dx AS at 53

>

[Guest guest]

This likely won't be for the faint of heart.

Greg Greer wrote:

>

> I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they

> are trying to change.

>

> I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> habitually throughout our married life.

Yes. I believe that's the single most damaging behavior engaged in by

adult AS. And it's _lethal_ to relationships of *all* kinds.

[ snip ]

> We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife

> that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is

> a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it.

Not the best thing to say. Wrong in fact. " I choose to be an asshole "

is not a good way to start on the path to mending.

--> WARNING: From here on I'm going to be _very_ blunt.

....One AS to another, trying to " make you " *see*.

> So the

> counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can

> choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful

> message. So when I do not " get it " or do or say something that upsets or

> hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative

> habits.

The counselor set you up. He/she provided you with two things:

A way to get yourself into a tight double-bind, and

a false dichotomy. You *don't* have two choices.

If you truly, truly want to save your marriage, there is NO CHOICE. You

*must* simply NEVER withdraw or sulk. Ever again. And a lot of other

things too. ...EVER again!

Anything less is just hedging your bets. Any reasonably intelligent NT

(your wife) will see that for what it is. And then you're dead.

>

> I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within 3

> months.

" Try hard... " , " 3 months... " Not good enough. Just do it. Now.

Anything else will end like the the typical New Year's resolution.

This is " hard cheese " , Greg. It's also real AS/NT life.

Anything less than " cold turkey " won't do it.

> I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to

> really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and try

> not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better

> efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on

> the head. To quote the words she used

>

> " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you

> want a relationship!

[ snip the completely predictable remainder ]

> So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help.

She can't help you. You're an alien being; she wouldn't know how or

where to start!

You on the other hand know full well what's going on, and that *you*

are the problem. *You* must change.

Yeah, not fair. Life's not fair. *You* must adapt to the NT world.

It won't adapt to you.

You seem to have adapted well enough in your work-a-day world. For money.

Now do it for your wife, for love (or at least out of compassion).

You already have the skill. Use it.

>

> I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate

> conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences.

> I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a

> movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the

> garden and what she may like to do with it.

This is classic. You *cannot* just talk the walk, even a little bit.

You must *walk* it.

" Actions speak louder than words. " Just DO what you known must be

done. No preambles. Don't describe it; do it. No words. No " see, I'm

trying " . Do it.

> The response so far has

> been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to

> roll over and cause more pain.

>

> Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears

> etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of

> times I have said sorry this weekend.

A little way below I'm giving some advice...

> I have also told her that I

> intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work.

> The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with her

That " being in the moment " likely is something you, me, and likely *all*

real AS cannot do.

Well, we can. But it's *nothing* like what the " shrinks " mean. And

what *we* do won't help your wife at all. You've ample proof of that??

I'm not sure NTs can do it either. It's a construct with only poor

evidence for its existence. Seems like a " right way to be " . But there

are many " right " ways. I doubt even good shrinks can tell you the right

one for you. Or for me, or for anyone else including NTs.

*My* shrink was pretty good. He couldn't explain " in the moment " . Or

tell me when I was getting close; or what I was doing wrong.

Just as autism is a way of being, " in the moment " is an NT way of

being. I can't do it (their way); I doubt you can.

> when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at home.

> Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very

> protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for me.

>

> Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to clean

> up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and if

> she agrees.

[ snip ]

" If I can... " , " if she agrees " . You're hedging your bets. Just do it.

You've done it at work. Do it at home as well. Make your wife " Job 1 " .

> I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

You'll gain respect through concrete acts. Things you *do* without

preamble or hedging.

>

> BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia. This

Words without meaning, without explanatory power. You *know* you have a

problem. How does " emotional dyspraxia " help you know more than you do

already?

The very first shrink I ever saw (I was 25 or so) told me I was an

" emotional cripple " .

Well, no. He couldn't have known what it was. Shrinks today don't

know either. Emotionally different for sure; but *far* from crippled.

> translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and thus

> inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

ly, I doubt we do. I'm *certain* those close to us do suffer!

[ADVICE}

....In the shape of a story.

When my own epiphany was upon me, and I saw reality at last, in a moment

when we both were calm I told my wife;

" Our relationship is going down the tubes. And it's clear all our

problems have their roots in MY behavior. NONE of them are any fault of

yours. *I* will change. I know how to, and I _will_.

" _No promises_ but one: I _will_ change. Don't know if our problems

will go away, or even if they can.

" But there _will_ be perceptible differences; some may be useful to

us both. I hope maybe your life at least will be easier and happier.

" I'll not say this again. If I do, we'll *both* know *I* failed. "

Epilogue:

Never again did I try to explain what I did - unless she asked. And

then I was very careful, very thoughtful in my responses. If it were a

problem I could fix, I said " OK; I'll fix that. " And I did.

Within months she was singing again. Quietly, even a bit shyly, but

*singing* for the first time in decades.

Almost three years later I've never " said my piece " again. My wife's

life *has* improved. *My* life has improved. It's almost like (dare I

say it?) ...we *together* are happy again.

We have disagreements ( " normal " couples do, yes?). Now they always

end in something at least workable for us both. No going to bed angry

for her. No days-long sulks and silences for me.

For her part my wife learned *reliably* how not to press my buttons -

just like I've learned *reliably* how not to punch hers.

The process continues; probably *must* for the rest of our lives. Is

it worth it? Damn Straight! It's kinda like " normal " now, y' know?

It can be done.

A short while back someone on ASPIRES asked why my wife wasn't a member.

Her response, when I asked her: " Why would I need to be? " That says

it all, I think. I'd like to think too, our experience may help others.

[/ADVICE]

- Bill; 75, AS; married 40 years - been there, done a'that.

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Bill,

I couldn't agree more. This is what worked (s) for me too. Just do what you know you should do. Stop sulking, stop withdrawing, stop explaining, stop excusing, just stop. We are not helpless victims. We are in control of our lives and what we choose to do with them. There's no law that says AS people have to treat others like junk just because we are different. If you can recognize that you are doing something and recognize the negative impact from that, then you can choose to not do it any more.

From another perspective. I am the AS wife of an NT man who behaves very similar to what we are talking about. I don't want to hear a bunch of promises over and over from him. What I want is to SEE some action. I want to SEE him doing the stuff he and I both know will mean he is dealing with his 'issues'. I want to SEE that he's finally decided to stop being a victim and started being a man.

Greg I think Bill's advice is really good, very right on. I hope you can receive it in the spirit it is given.

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeannie,

I haven't posted for a while but I am curious. Are you saying that

you want your husband to stand up and be a man when it comes to how

you treat him?

houris

>

> Bill,

>

> I couldn't agree more. This is what worked (s) for me too. Just do

what you know you should do. Stop sulking, stop withdrawing, stop

explaining, stop excusing, just stop. We are not helpless victims. We

are in control of our lives and what we choose to do with them.

There's no law that says AS people have to treat others like junk

just because we are different. If you can recognize that you are

doing something and recognize the negative impact from that, then you

can choose to not do it any more.

>

> From another perspective. I am the AS wife of an NT man who behaves

very similar to what we are talking about. I don't want to hear a

bunch of promises over and over from him. What I want is to SEE some

action. I want to SEE him doing the stuff he and I both know will

mean he is dealing with his 'issues'. I want to SEE that he's finally

decided to stop being a victim and started being a man.

>

> Greg I think Bill's advice is really good, very right on. I hope

you can receive it in the spirit it is given.

>

> Jennie AS

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bill. Advice taken in the

spirit it was offered.

Time for action. You are right,

if I have to explain it then I am not getting it.

Greg

dx AS at 53

WD Loughman

Sent by: aspires-relationships

14/01/2008 11:03 PM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships

cc

Subject

Re: Epiphany

of sorts - Making a difference in AS/NT relationships

This likely won't be for the faint of heart.

Greg Greer wrote:

>

> I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say

they

> are trying to change.

>

> I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> habitually throughout our married life.

Yes. I believe that's the single most damaging behavior engaged in by

adult AS. And it's _lethal_ to relationships of *all* kinds.

[ snip ]

> We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife

> that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that

is

> a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it.

Not the best thing to say. Wrong in fact. " I choose to be an asshole "

is not a good way to start on the path to mending.

--> WARNING: From here on I'm going to be _very_ blunt.

....One AS to another, trying to " make you " *see*.

> So the

> counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I

can

> choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful

> message. So when I do not " get it " or do or say something

that upsets or

> hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative

> habits.

The counselor set you up. He/she provided you with two things:

A way to get yourself into a tight double-bind, and

a false dichotomy. You *don't* have two choices.

If you truly, truly want to save your marriage, there is NO CHOICE. You

*must* simply NEVER withdraw or sulk. Ever again. And a lot of other

things too. ...EVER again!

Anything less is just hedging your bets. Any reasonably intelligent NT

(your wife) will see that for what it is. And then you're dead.

>

> I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within

3

> months.

" Try hard... " , " 3 months... " Not good enough. Just

do it. Now.

Anything else will end like the the typical New Year's resolution.

This is " hard cheese " , Greg. It's also real AS/NT life.

Anything less than " cold turkey " won't do it.

> I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to

> really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and

try

> not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better

> efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me

on

> the head. To quote the words she used

>

> " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

you

> want a relationship!

[ snip the completely predictable remainder ]

> So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help.

She can't help you. You're an alien being; she wouldn't know how or

where to start!

You on the other hand know full well what's going on, and that *you*

are the problem. *You* must change.

Yeah, not fair. Life's not fair. *You* must adapt to the NT world.

It won't adapt to you.

You seem to have adapted well enough in your work-a-day world. For money.

Now do it for your wife, for love (or at least out of compassion).

You already have the skill. Use it.

>

> I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate

> conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences.

> I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch

a

> movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about

the

> garden and what she may like to do with it.

This is classic. You *cannot* just talk the walk, even a little bit.

You must *walk* it.

" Actions speak louder than words. " Just DO what you known must

be

done. No preambles. Don't describe it; do it. No words. No " see, I'm

trying " . Do it.

> The response so far has

> been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her

to

> roll over and cause more pain.

>

> Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears

> etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number

of

> times I have said sorry this weekend.

A little way below I'm giving some advice...

> I have also told her that I

> intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work.

> The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with

her

That " being in the moment " likely is something you, me, and likely

*all*

real AS cannot do.

Well, we can. But it's *nothing* like what the " shrinks " mean.

And

what *we* do won't help your wife at all. You've ample proof of that??

I'm not sure NTs can do it either. It's a construct with only poor

evidence for its existence. Seems like a " right way to be " . But

there

are many " right " ways. I doubt even good shrinks can tell you

the right

one for you. Or for me, or for anyone else including NTs.

*My* shrink was pretty good. He couldn't explain " in the moment " .

Or

tell me when I was getting close; or what I was doing wrong.

Just as autism is a way of being, " in the moment " is an NT way

of

being. I can't do it (their way); I doubt you can.

> when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at home.

> Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very

> protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for

me.

>

> Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to clean

> up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

if

> she agrees.

[ snip ]

" If I can... " , " if she agrees " . You're hedging your

bets. Just do it.

You've done it at work. Do it at home as well. Make your wife " Job

1 " .

> I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

You'll gain respect through concrete acts. Things you *do* without

preamble or hedging.

>

> BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia. This

Words without meaning, without explanatory power. You *know* you have a

problem. How does " emotional dyspraxia " help you know more than

you do

already?

The very first shrink I ever saw (I was 25 or so) told me I was an

" emotional cripple " .

Well, no. He couldn't have known what it was. Shrinks today don't

know either. Emotionally different for sure; but *far* from crippled.

> translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and

thus

> inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

ly, I doubt we do. I'm *certain* those close to us do suffer!

[ADVICE}

....In the shape of a story.

When my own epiphany was upon me, and I saw reality at last, in a moment

when we both were calm I told my wife;

" Our relationship is going down the tubes. And it's clear all our

problems have their roots in MY behavior. NONE of them are any fault of

yours. *I* will change. I know how to, and I _will_.

" _No promises_ but one: I _will_ change. Don't know if our problems

will go away, or even if they can.

" But there _will_ be perceptible differences; some may be useful to

us both. I hope maybe your life at least will be easier and happier.

" I'll not say this again. If I do, we'll *both* know *I* failed. "

Epilogue:

Never again did I try to explain what I did - unless she asked. And

then I was very careful, very thoughtful in my responses. If it were a

problem I could fix, I said " OK; I'll fix that. " And I did.

Within months she was singing again. Quietly, even a bit shyly, but

*singing* for the first time in decades.

Almost three years later I've never " said my piece " again. My

wife's

life *has* improved. *My* life has improved. It's almost like (dare I

say it?) ...we *together* are happy again.

We have disagreements ( " normal " couples do, yes?). Now they always

end in something at least workable for us both. No going to bed angry

for her. No days-long sulks and silences for me.

For her part my wife learned *reliably* how not to press my buttons -

just like I've learned *reliably* how not to punch hers.

The process continues; probably *must* for the rest of our lives. Is

it worth it? Damn Straight! It's kinda like " normal " now, y'

know?

It can be done.

A short while back someone on ASPIRES asked why my wife wasn't a member.

Her response, when I asked her: " Why would I need to be? " That

says

it all, I think. I'd like to think too, our experience may help others.

[/ADVICE]

- Bill; 75, AS; married 40 years - been there, done a'that.

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Keep tryng Greg.. your wife and I have a lot in common.  A fresh start is what is needed and after all these years, she is still sad and angry over what has been missed.  She will have to forgive and that takes time to get to that place.  Let your actions speak for themselves.  Things will not change overnight. Or even in a week or month.  I see my husband trying new things and I am skeptical... I am not going to fall all over myself to praise and encourage him. I am not belittling him either. Just quietly noticing and approving.   I need to see that he is in it for the long haul, not just to get back to where we used to be (me-kowtowing, him-sailing along in a boat rowed by me) because I have moved past all that.  Tell her again that you want to change.  Ask her not to ridicule you .  Tell her that you understand if she is not too enthusiatic right now.  Keep up the good work.  Remember that it took a long time for you both to get to this place.   I am cheering for you !   Janet ZEEI sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they are trying to change. I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done habitually throughout our married life.  Strange that what you should value becomes more valuable when you have lost it. Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot of courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it.  I think the penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the consequences words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a relationship.  One of the things that helped me understand this was the following: We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it.  So the counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to engage with my wife.  That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do not "get it" or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative habits. I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within 3 months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and try not to make it about me all the time.  I have read a book  called the seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman.  This has helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf.  She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the head.  To quote the words she used "So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you want a relationship!  What about when I wanted a relationship and you were physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life and the kids lives?  What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that this is now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have so far?  Why should I take a risk of being let down again?  Just because you want it now it HAS to happen!  What are you going to base a relationship on  that you have destroyed?  You still have Aspergers so how can you change?So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help.  I have said this several times over the weekend.  I even tried to initiate conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences.  I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be happy alone.  I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a movie rather than do my own thing.  Tried making suggestions about the garden and what she may like to do with it.  The response so far has been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to roll over and cause more pain.   Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears etc.  but basically she does not trust my motives.  And to be fair to her the questions are quite valid.  I have lost count of the number of times I have said sorry this weekend.  I have also told her that I intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work.  The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at home.  Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for me. Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged.  But I am going to clean up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and if she agrees.  I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say hurts her so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt.  She believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so to speak.  Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the major problem.  It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and have to second guess how she might take it.   Oh well.  Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of it.  I do feel that 2008 will  be a better year where my wife and I will finally either make it together  or make it apart.  Even gaining her respect back may be enough.  It would definitely be progress.  BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.  This translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and thus inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from others.  Do all AS on the list suffer this?Greg dx AS at 53

[Guest guest]

Okay Bill, you've brought tears to my eyes.Getting from here to where you are seems insurmountable. (Remember, my husband believes Aspergers is nonsense.)Just wanted to thank you for your brutal honesty and your encouragement to Greg,DanekaWD Loughman wrote: This likely won't be for the faint of heart. Greg Greer wrote: > > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the > distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they > are trying to

change. > > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done > habitually throughout our married life. Yes. I believe that's the single most damaging behavior engaged in by adult AS. And it's _lethal_ to relationships of *all* kinds. [ snip ] > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than > realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife > that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is > a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it. Not the best thing to say. Wrong in fact. "I choose to be an asshole" is not a good way to start on the path to mending. --> WARNING: From here on I'm going to be _very_ blunt. ...One AS to another, trying to "make you" *see*. > So

the > counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can > choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful > message. So when I do not "get it" or do or say something that upsets or > hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative > habits. The counselor set you up. He/she provided you with two things: A way to get yourself into a tight double-bind, and a false dichotomy. You *don't* have two choices. If you truly, truly want to save your marriage, there is NO CHOICE. You *must* simply NEVER withdraw or sulk. Ever again. And a lot of other things too. ...EVER again! Anything less is just hedging your bets. Any reasonably intelligent NT (your wife) will see that for what it is. And then you're dead. > > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within 3 >

months. "Try hard...", "3 months..." Not good enough. Just do it. Now. Anything else will end like the the typical New Year's resolution. This is "hard cheese", Greg. It's also real AS/NT life. Anything less than "cold turkey" won't do it. > I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to > really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and try > not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the > seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has > helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better > efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on > the head. To quote the words she used > > "So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you > want a relationship! [ snip the completely predictable remainder ] > So

I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help. She can't help you. You're an alien being; she wouldn't know how or where to start! You on the other hand know full well what's going on, and that *you* are the problem. *You* must change. Yeah, not fair. Life's not fair. *You* must adapt to the NT world. It won't adapt to you. You seem to have adapted well enough in your work-a-day world. For money. Now do it for your wife, for love (or at least out of compassion). You already have the skill. Use it. > > I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate > conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences. > I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be > happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a > movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making

suggestions about the > garden and what she may like to do with it. This is classic. You *cannot* just talk the walk, even a little bit. You must *walk* it. "Actions speak louder than words." Just DO what you known must be done. No preambles. Don't describe it; do it. No words. No "see, I'm trying". Do it. > The response so far has > been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to > roll over and cause more pain. > > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears > etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to > her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of > times I have said sorry this weekend. A little way below I'm giving some advice... > I have also told her that I > intend to spend more time at home and

not be so obsessive about work. > The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with her That "being in the moment" likely is something you, me, and likely *all* real AS cannot do. Well, we can. But it's *nothing* like what the "shrinks" mean. And what *we* do won't help your wife at all. You've ample proof of that?? I'm not sure NTs can do it either. It's a construct with only poor evidence for its existence. Seems like a "right way to be". But there are many "right" ways. I doubt even good shrinks can tell you the right one for you. Or for me, or for anyone else including NTs. *My* shrink was pretty good. He couldn't explain "in the moment". Or tell me when I was getting close; or what I was doing wrong. Just as autism is a way of being, "in the moment" is an NT way of being. I can't do it (their way); I doubt you can. > when I am home and not

problem solving something from work or at home. > Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very > protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for me. > > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to clean > up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and if > she agrees. [ snip ] "If I can...", "if she agrees". You're hedging your bets. Just do it. You've done it at work. Do it at home as well. Make your wife "Job 1". > I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will > finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her > respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress. You'll gain respect through concrete acts. Things you *do* without preamble or hedging. > > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have

emotional dyspraxia. This Words without meaning, without explanatory power. You *know* you have a problem. How does "emotional dyspraxia" help you know more than you do already? The very first shrink I ever saw (I was 25 or so) told me I was an "emotional cripple". Well, no. He couldn't have known what it was. Shrinks today don't know either. Emotionally different for sure; but *far* from crippled. > translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and thus > inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this? ly, I doubt we do. I'm *certain* those close to us do suffer! [ADVICE} ...In the shape of a story. When my own epiphany was upon me, and I saw reality at last, in a moment when we both were calm I told my wife; "Our relationship is going down the tubes. And it's clear all our

problems have their roots in MY behavior. NONE of them are any fault of yours. *I* will change. I know how to, and I _will_. "_No promises_ but one: I _will_ change. Don't know if our problems will go away, or even if they can. "But there _will_ be perceptible differences; some may be useful to us both. I hope maybe your life at least will be easier and happier. "I'll not say this again. If I do, we'll *both* know *I* failed." Epilogue: Never again did I try to explain what I did - unless she asked. And then I was very careful, very thoughtful in my responses. If it were a problem I could fix, I said "OK; I'll fix that." And I did. Within months she was singing again. Quietly, even a bit shyly, but *singing* for the first time in decades. Almost three years later I've never "said my piece" again. My wife's life *has* improved. *My* life has improved. It's almost like

(dare I say it?) ...we *together* are happy again. We have disagreements ("normal" couples do, yes?). Now they always end in something at least workable for us both. No going to bed angry for her. No days-long sulks and silences for me. For her part my wife learned *reliably* how not to press my buttons - just like I've learned *reliably* how not to punch hers. The process continues; probably *must* for the rest of our lives. Is it worth it? Damn Straight! It's kinda like "normal" now, y' know? It can be done. A short while back someone on ASPIRES asked why my wife wasn't a member. Her response, when I asked her: "Why would I need to be?" That says it all, I think. I'd like to think too, our experience may help others. [/ADVICE] - Bill; 75, AS; married 40 years - been there, done a'that. -- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,I haven't time to respond right now, but I wondered whether your wife might join this list? It could be that you need this list as your private domain - I feel that way. I just think other NT spouses on this list might be able to help her fill that gap between what she has experienced and what could be.DanekaGreg Greer wrote: I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they are trying

to change. I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done habitually throughout our married life. Strange that what you should value becomes more valuable when you have lost it. Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot of courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I think the penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the consequences words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this was the following: We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising

that is a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it. So the counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do not "get it" or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative habits. I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within 3 months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and try not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the head. To quote the words she used

"So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you want a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and you were physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life and the kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that this is now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have so far? Why should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you want it now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a relationship on that you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you change? So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help. I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences.

I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the garden and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to roll over and cause more pain. Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of times I have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am home and not problem solving something from work or

at home. Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for me. Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to clean up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and if she agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say hurts her so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt. She believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so to speak. Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the major problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and have to second guess how she might take it. Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of it. I do feel that 2008 will be a

better year where my wife and I will finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress. BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia. This translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and thus inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from others. Do all AS on the list suffer this? Greg dx AS at 53

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Guest guest]

Greg, That is a great idea. I thought the same thing. I know in the short time I've been on the list has been a great support and an outlet already....My Husband is AS and the encouragement from other NT spouses has been wonderful and actually makes me feel like it will be ok...Its a great feeling knowing that others share your difficulties. Thanks for sharing you story Daneka Wheeler wrote: Hi Greg,I haven't time to respond right now, but I wondered whether your

wife might join this list? It could be that you need this list as your private domain - I feel that way. I just think other NT spouses on this list might be able to help her fill that gap between what she has experienced and what could be.DanekaGreg Greer <ggreer@....com> wrote: I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they are trying to change. I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done habitually throughout our married life. Strange that what you should value becomes more valuable when you have lost it. Perhaps I have

had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot of courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I think the penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the consequences words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this was the following: We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it. So the counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do not "get it" or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within 3 months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and try not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the head. To quote the words she used "So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you want a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and you were physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life and the kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that this is now necessary? What can

you offer me other than what you have so far? Why should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you want it now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a relationship on that you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you change?So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help. I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences. I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the garden and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to roll over and cause more pain.

Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of times I have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at home. Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for me. Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to clean up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and if she agrees. I have asked her also to

tell me when anytthing I say hurts her so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt. She believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so to speak. Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the major problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and have to second guess how she might take it. Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of it. I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress. BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia. This translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and thus inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?Greg dx AS at 53 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Guest guest]

Bill,

I have reread this post again and I

need to acknowledge that I cannot have it both ways. It is adapt

or die. In fact, sifting through the discussions my wife and I have

had, she has been telling me exactly the same thing!!! Dumb and dumber

as I did not allow it to sink in.

The conclusion is that if it affects

me, of course I will change. If it affects her or my family I did

not because it was not important enough unless it affects me. Talk

about eyes wide shut.

Thanks for the advice.

Greg

dx AS at 53

WD Loughman

Sent by: aspires-relationships

14/01/2008 11:03 PM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships

cc

Subject

Re: Epiphany

of sorts - Making a difference in AS/NT relationships

This likely won't be for the faint of heart.

Greg Greer wrote:

>

> I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say

they

> are trying to change.

>

> I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> habitually throughout our married life.

Yes. I believe that's the single most damaging behavior engaged in by

adult AS. And it's _lethal_ to relationships of *all* kinds.

[ snip ]

> We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife

> that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that

is

> a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it.

Not the best thing to say. Wrong in fact. " I choose to be an asshole "

is not a good way to start on the path to mending.

--> WARNING: From here on I'm going to be _very_ blunt.

....One AS to another, trying to " make you " *see*.

> So the

> counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I

can

> choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful

> message. So when I do not " get it " or do or say something

that upsets or

> hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old negative

> habits.

The counselor set you up. He/she provided you with two things:

A way to get yourself into a tight double-bind, and

a false dichotomy. You *don't* have two choices.

If you truly, truly want to save your marriage, there is NO CHOICE. You

*must* simply NEVER withdraw or sulk. Ever again. And a lot of other

things too. ...EVER again!

Anything less is just hedging your bets. Any reasonably intelligent NT

(your wife) will see that for what it is. And then you're dead.

>

> I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference within

3

> months.

" Try hard... " , " 3 months... " Not good enough. Just

do it. Now.

Anything else will end like the the typical New Year's resolution.

This is " hard cheese " , Greg. It's also real AS/NT life.

Anything less than " cold turkey " won't do it.

> I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to

> really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and

try

> not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better

> efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me

on

> the head. To quote the words she used

>

> " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

you

> want a relationship!

[ snip the completely predictable remainder ]

> So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help.

She can't help you. You're an alien being; she wouldn't know how or

where to start!

You on the other hand know full well what's going on, and that *you*

are the problem. *You* must change.

Yeah, not fair. Life's not fair. *You* must adapt to the NT world.

It won't adapt to you.

You seem to have adapted well enough in your work-a-day world. For money.

Now do it for your wife, for love (or at least out of compassion).

You already have the skill. Use it.

>

> I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to initiate

> conversations about what we can do to develop some shared experiences.

> I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch

a

> movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about

the

> garden and what she may like to do with it.

This is classic. You *cannot* just talk the walk, even a little bit.

You must *walk* it.

" Actions speak louder than words. " Just DO what you known must

be

done. No preambles. Don't describe it; do it. No words. No " see, I'm

trying " . Do it.

> The response so far has

> been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her

to

> roll over and cause more pain.

>

> Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears

> etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number

of

> times I have said sorry this weekend.

A little way below I'm giving some advice...

> I have also told her that I

> intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about work.

> The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with

her

That " being in the moment " likely is something you, me, and likely

*all*

real AS cannot do.

Well, we can. But it's *nothing* like what the " shrinks " mean.

And

what *we* do won't help your wife at all. You've ample proof of that??

I'm not sure NTs can do it either. It's a construct with only poor

evidence for its existence. Seems like a " right way to be " . But

there

are many " right " ways. I doubt even good shrinks can tell you

the right

one for you. Or for me, or for anyone else including NTs.

*My* shrink was pretty good. He couldn't explain " in the moment " .

Or

tell me when I was getting close; or what I was doing wrong.

Just as autism is a way of being, " in the moment " is an NT way

of

being. I can't do it (their way); I doubt you can.

> when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at home.

> Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very

> protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for

me.

>

> Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to clean

> up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

if

> she agrees.

[ snip ]

" If I can... " , " if she agrees " . You're hedging your

bets. Just do it.

You've done it at work. Do it at home as well. Make your wife " Job

1 " .

> I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

You'll gain respect through concrete acts. Things you *do* without

preamble or hedging.

>

> BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia. This

Words without meaning, without explanatory power. You *know* you have a

problem. How does " emotional dyspraxia " help you know more than

you do

already?

The very first shrink I ever saw (I was 25 or so) told me I was an

" emotional cripple " .

Well, no. He couldn't have known what it was. Shrinks today don't

know either. Emotionally different for sure; but *far* from crippled.

> translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and

thus

> inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

ly, I doubt we do. I'm *certain* those close to us do suffer!

[ADVICE}

....In the shape of a story.

When my own epiphany was upon me, and I saw reality at last, in a moment

when we both were calm I told my wife;

" Our relationship is going down the tubes. And it's clear all our

problems have their roots in MY behavior. NONE of them are any fault of

yours. *I* will change. I know how to, and I _will_.

" _No promises_ but one: I _will_ change. Don't know if our problems

will go away, or even if they can.

" But there _will_ be perceptible differences; some may be useful to

us both. I hope maybe your life at least will be easier and happier.

" I'll not say this again. If I do, we'll *both* know *I* failed. "

Epilogue:

Never again did I try to explain what I did - unless she asked. And

then I was very careful, very thoughtful in my responses. If it were a

problem I could fix, I said " OK; I'll fix that. " And I did.

Within months she was singing again. Quietly, even a bit shyly, but

*singing* for the first time in decades.

Almost three years later I've never " said my piece " again. My

wife's

life *has* improved. *My* life has improved. It's almost like (dare I

say it?) ...we *together* are happy again.

We have disagreements ( " normal " couples do, yes?). Now they always

end in something at least workable for us both. No going to bed angry

for her. No days-long sulks and silences for me.

For her part my wife learned *reliably* how not to press my buttons -

just like I've learned *reliably* how not to punch hers.

The process continues; probably *must* for the rest of our lives. Is

it worth it? Damn Straight! It's kinda like " normal " now, y'

know?

It can be done.

A short while back someone on ASPIRES asked why my wife wasn't a member.

Her response, when I asked her: " Why would I need to be? " That

says

it all, I think. I'd like to think too, our experience may help others.

[/ADVICE]

- Bill; 75, AS; married 40 years - been there, done a'that.

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I agree with Janet, Greg. Keep trying. I am praying that my husband

will come to the time when he has enough faith in himself to try to

change some things that make our marriage so much harder. He just

doesn't want to change anything unless he has to - it is really abhorent

to him. Because I keep trudging on, which is what I have learned that I

have to do to remain sane, he tends to think that everything is ok

unless I rock the boat by asking for more from him. It is a very tight

line to walk for me, especially now that I have cancer. He does seem to

be a little more sympathetic to me now, which may lead to more

understanding, who knows? Congratulations to you for just realising

that YOU can do something to make the marriage better and that you are

willing to start that awesome task.

Ann

>

> >

> > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> > distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say

> > they are trying to change.

> >

> > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> > habitually throughout our married life. Strange that what you

> > should value becomes more valuable when you have lost it.

> >

> > Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot

> > of courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I

> > think the penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand

> > the consequences words and lack of action have, and how damaging it

> > can be to a relationship. One of the things that helped me

> > understand this was the following:

> >

> > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> > realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my

> > wife that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that

> > realising that is a choice I made means that I am really

> > responsible for it. So the counsellor helped me understand that I

> > can choose to withdraw or I can choose to engage with my wife.

> > That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do not " get

> > it " or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to

> > choose how I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

> >

> > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

> > within 3 months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I

> > am going to really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point

> > of view and try not to make it about me all the time. I have read

> > a book called the seven principles of making marriage work by

> > Gottman. This has helped me realise that there are tools I can use

> > to make a better efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning

> > struck or who hit me on the head. To quote the words she used

> >

> > " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

> > you want a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship

> > and you were physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved

> > in my life and the kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have

> > that you find that this is now necessary? What can you offer me

> > other than what you have so far? Why should I take a risk of being

> > let down again? Just because you want it now it HAS to happen!

> > What are you going to base a relationship on that you have

> > destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you change?

> >

> > So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help.

> > I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

> > initiate conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

> > experiences. I want to see if we can be happy together rather than

> > trying to be happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her

> > tonight to watch a movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making

> > suggestions about the garden and what she may like to do with it.

> > The response so far has been ridicule and put downs with

> > accusations about how I expect her to roll over and cause more pain.

> >

> > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her

> > fears etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be

> > fair to her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of

> > the number of times I have said sorry this weekend. I have also

> > told her that I intend to spend more time at home and not be so

> > obsessive about work. The real challenge for me I think will be

> > being in the moment with her when I am home and not problem solving

> > something from work or at home. Also I need to connect with my two

> > daughters who both feel very protective of their mother and are not

> > inclined to make it easy for me.

> >

> > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

> > clean up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I

> > can and if she agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when

> > anytthing I say hurts her so that I can understand what or how I

> > say things causes hurt. She believes I say things to deliberately

> > hurt or twist the knife so to speak. Explaining that I am often

> > unaware when she feels hurt is the major problem. It seems I have

> > to be so careful about what I say and have to second guess how she

> > might take it.

> >

> > Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of

> > it. I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I

> > will finally either make it together or make it apart. Even

> > gaining her respect back may be enough. It would definitely be

> > progress.

> >

> > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.

> > This translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or

> > emotions and thus inhibiting normal responses to emotional

> > behaviour from

> > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

> >

> > Greg

> > dx AS at 53

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad to see that people who are in relationships or were in

relationships are getting help. I have been divorced officially

since September 2002 and haven't been in a relationship for four

months, so I feel none that particular conversation applies to me.

However, I support everyone in here who is going through the

challenges of dealing with relationship issues.

My life continues to get better and better, nonetheless.

> >

> > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> distrust

> > NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they

> are trying

> > to change.

> >

> > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> habitually

> > throughout our married life. Strange that what you should value

> becomes

> > more valuable when you have lost it.

> >

> > Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a

lot

> of

> > courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I

> think the

> > penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the

> consequences

> > words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a

> > relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this

> was the

> > following:

> >

> > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> realising

> > that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that

I

> had

> > chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a

> choice I

> > made means that I am really responsible for it. So the counsellor

> helped

> > me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to

> engage with

> > my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do

> not " get

> > it " or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to

> choose how

> > I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

> >

> > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

> within 3

> > months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am

> going to

> > really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view

and

> try not

> > to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> seven

> > principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> helped me

> > realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf.

> She

> > wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the

> head. To

> > quote the words she used

> >

> > " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

> you want

> > a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and you

> were

> > physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life

> and the

> > kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that

> this is

> > now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have so

> far? Why

> > should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you

> want it

> > now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a relationship

> on that

> > you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you

> change?

> >

> > So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her

> help. I have

> > said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

> initiate

> > conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

> experiences. I

> > want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> happy

> > alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a

> movie

> > rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the

> garden

> > and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has been

> > ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to

> roll

> > over and cause more pain.

> >

> > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her

> fears etc.

> > but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> her the

> > questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of

> times I

> > have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I intend

> to spend

> > more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real

> challenge

> > for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am

home

> and not

> > problem solving something from work or at home. Also I need to

> connect

> > with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their

> mother and

> > are not inclined to make it easy for me.

> >

> > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

> clean up

> > my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

> if she

> > agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say

> hurts her

> > so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt.

> She

> > believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so

> to speak.

> > Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the

> major

> > problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and

> have to

> > second guess how she might take it.

> >

> > Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of

> it. I

> > do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> finally

> > either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> respect back

> > may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

> >

> > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.

> This

> > translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions

> and thus

> > inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

> >

> > Greg

> > dx AS at 53

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greg, thank you for your insight. It will be impossible to get

to go to a professional. He has a phobia about them and is

afraid to get a DX attached to him. From his reaction to my looking

into AS, its obvious to me that he has researched this on his own.

He knows he is not like most other people. So, yes, I know I cannot

change him. I am hoping to control some of his behaviors that cause

us problems, just as I worked with him to control his behaviors at

work that were causing him big problems.

When we were planning to marry, he said he wanted me to help him

organize his home and life. I didn't think much about it at the time

because I was unaware of AS. is very disorganized. His

efforts to organize himself turn into obsessive compulsive actions,

such as keeping logs in spiral binders. But he misplaces the binders,

along with everything else. So his solution just added more clutter,

rather than really organize himself. In the beginning, he was

constantly losing his car keys, his ID tag for work, his wallet, etc.

What I did was create a PLACE for all these everyday things on his

desk. When he comes home, he puts them in this container on his desk

and he has been very good about that and rarely loses these items.

Because his tools are so disorganized, we have many versions of the

same tool with the hopes of finding one of them. To control this, I

created my own toolbox and put my name on each one. He is not

allowed to use my tools unless he asks and then he must put it back.

This works most of the time. When I find a tool missing, I make him

stop whatever he is doing, find it and put it back into my tool box.

These are just examples of how I try to control certain things to help

him and me.

doesn't really collect things, with the exception of animals

and certain plants. He just saves junk - pure simple junk and trash

that other people would throw away. Boxes of bits of electrical wire

for example. I did give him the basement for his own. However, the

stuff gravitates to the upstairs too. And I'm constantly battling to

get it back downstairs. Of course, some of the pets have to be

upstairs, such as the dog and parrots. I have put my foot down

concerning not getting any more pets. Since then, he has snuck 5 rats

and 2 guinea pigs into the basement. I love animals. I just don't

want to own them all. Occasionally I have been able to celebrate

some success. I got him to part with his 40 yr old college

textbooks, for example. In the beginning, I got rid of a lot of his

clothes. They had patches on the patches - I kid you not. I bought

clothes for him, but have generally given up trying to make him more

'stylish'. I'm settling on clean. I would like to find a way to

talk to him. I think there is some interesting things in his brain,

but I can't get him to have real conversations. Because most

conversation gets contentious because of how he interprets things, I

have been avoiding talking with him. That is not a solution though.

He only talks about certain things: work, his pets and his

plants......ad nauseum, because he repeats and repeats the same

sentences over and over. It puzzles me what he interprets things the

way he does. For example, I may tell him that next week he needs to

do something. He starts yelling that he doesn't have time TODAY to

do it. Why doesn't he hear the 'next week'? He almost always takes

everything as meaning its 'right now, stop what you are doing', unless

I specifically preface my statement that its not to be done right now.

The biggest behavior problems that I haven't been able to control are:

1. Animal collecting, and hoarding of trash and junk

2. Antisocial behavior to the point that I can't have people on our

property (not just in the house) or they will be verbally abused by

.

3. Messy, dirty behavior that makes our home nearly unlivable.

I apologize for my lengthy posts. As always, any suggestions are

most welcomed. Verleen

>

> Verleen,

>

> This is where the dichotomy of the NT/AS relationship gets really

bogged

> down.

>

> The way I get it is to understand the logic behind an argument and a

> position people take. This works well at work. That's not to say

that my

> wife uses this approach. I have to work at understanding why she

has made

> a request.

>

> Your husband appears to have an obsessive compulsive disorder about

> throwing things away. Accept you cannot change that. He needs help

from

> a professional for that.

>

> The next thing you may try is to abitrarily declare a certain space for

> him to keep his collections in. Maybe just one room. You may want

to set

> aside a space for you as well. He will then have to get rid of

anything

> that will not fit. This will be traumatic for him because he will

need to

> make a decision so be prepared for fallout, but you will need to stand

> your ground. You both have to live in the house. I have one room (the

> study) that is my space and I do not encroach on any other rooms. I

also

> have " the shed " which is my space and I keep tools and other bric a

brac

> in there, but I am not a compulsive hoarder.

>

> If he really likes order then suggest having a shelving/storage system

> installed in the space so that he can easily label and keep track of

what

> he collects. It would give him a project to do.

>

> You will need to explain the consequences to you and anyone else to

him if

> he refuses to follow this and how it affects you. There should also be

> consequences for him as well. Work out what they should be.

Remember, it

> has to affect him if he is to change. He will fight it but you need to

> calmly stand your ground. He needs to have reinforced that it is not

> acceptable.

>

> Maybe that is a start. Others on the list may also have suggestions.

>

> Greg

> dx AS at 53

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greg, methinks, based on how you respond on this forum, you will have

many successes. I admire you.

As for , I can see the value in being consistent and

predictable. What I worry about is turning into a nag which he sees

anytime I am not 100% agreeable with him. It is worth a try. I think

that if I let him know what to predict that it will help. I will

tell him that if he leaves his stuff in the LR, DR and K that I will

have him immediately take it to the basement or I will throw it out.

Well, I will have to think about the " throw it out " part. I can see

that he would react very badly over that kind of ultimatum. He

really doesn't like to have me unhappy with him. When I need him to

do something that is important to me, I tell him that it would help me

greatly in such a such manner if he would do this for me. I don't

want to overuse that technique either. I am thinking about throwing

some of his stuff out every week. Junk that I know he won't miss.

Sometimes reasoning with him works. Last summer we worked together

to clean out the gardening shed in back of the house. Me mostly in

the chair directing what to do. There were around 50 of these large

black plastic pots that he wanted to keep. I asked him when would he

ever even use 5 of them? He said probably never, but he would like

some in case he ever needed one that size. I said how about if we

keep 5 of them? He agreed and threw the other 45 or so out. As

long as I can stay healthy enough, I can keep working on this. I

spent 4 1/2 years very sick, hospitalized, even in a coma at one

point, and things got out of hand here. Last June, I began to get

much better and the pain is at least tolerable now. I hope this

trend will continue so I can get the place and under

control.....lol. As I am getting tips from you and others, I hope

some of my strategies might help someone else on the forum. Verleen

>

> Verleen,

>

> I can only go on my own experience.

>

>

> You can influence his behaviour but you have to be very consistent

in the

> message and actions you take. One thing my wife did was place

anything of

> mine back inside my room if it encroached on others space. She did

this a

> number of times and I got the message. Whenever you find his things

> outside that room put them back in or better still tell him that

they will

> be thrown away. He will get the message.

>

> You can choose to do what is best for you as I assume he has very

little

> executive function to consider consequences for others from his

actions.

> Emotionally he seems to be a teenager and you are the responsible

partner.

> Leverage his AS need for predictability and by behaving predictably

you

> will get him into a new groove that fits in more with how you need

things

> to be.

>

> It is hard and it will take time. Post here often to get whatever

support

> you need from others on this list.

>

> What I have said above has only come about due to my wife taking the

> initiative and taking control of her life and that has helped me in

> getting it but only after a lot of struggle. Our relationship is still

> starined and she needs to learn to trust me again. But we are still

> talking and I am trying to learn new behaviours.

>

>

> Greg

> dx AS at 53

>

[Guest guest]

I know it's not just man/woman, Janet. It's all kinds of

relationships.. including those with themselves LOL.

> > > >

> > > > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with

the

> > > distrust

> > > > NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say

they

> > > are trying

> > > > to change.

> > > >

> > > > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make

to an

> > > > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have

done

> > > habitually

> > > > throughout our married life. Strange that what you should

value

> > > becomes

> > > > more valuable when you have lost it.

> > > >

> > > > Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a

> > lot

> > > of

> > > > courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I

> > > think the

> > > > penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the

> > > consequences

> > > > words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a

> > > > relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this

> > > was the

> > > > following:

> > > >

> > > > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather

than

> > > realising

> > > > that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife

that

> > I

> > > had

> > > > chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a

> > > choice I

> > > > made means that I am really responsible for it. So the

counsellor

> > > helped

> > > > me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to

> > > engage with

> > > > my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I

do

> > > not " get

> > > > it " or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to

> > > choose how

> > > > I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

> > > >

> > > > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

> > > within 3

> > > > months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am

> > > going to

> > > > really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view

> > and

> > > try not

> > > > to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called

the

> > > seven

> > > > principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> > > helped me

> > > > realise that there are tools I can use to make a better

efforf.

> > > She

> > > > wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the

> > > head. To

> > > > quote the words she used

> > > >

> > > > " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now

decide

> > > you want

> > > > a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and

you

> > > were

> > > > physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my

life

> > > and the

> > > > kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find

that

> > > this is

> > > > now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have

so

> > > far? Why

> > > > should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you

> > > want it

> > > > now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a

relationship

> > > on that

> > > > you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you

> > > change?

> > > >

> > > > So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her

> > > help. I have

> > > > said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

> > > initiate

> > > > conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

> > > experiences. I

> > > > want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to

be

> > > happy

> > > > alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to

watch a

> > > movie

> > > > rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about

the

> > > garden

> > > > and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has

been

> > > > ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect

her to

> > > roll

> > > > over and cause more pain.

> > > >

> > > > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her

> > > fears etc.

> > > > but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> > > her the

> > > > questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of

> > > times I

> > > > have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I

intend

> > > to spend

> > > > more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real

> > > challenge

> > > > for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am

> > home

> > > and not

> > > > problem solving something from work or at home. Also I need to

> > > connect

> > > > with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their

> > > mother and

> > > > are not inclined to make it easy for me.

> > > >

> > > > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going

to

> > > clean up

> > > > my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can

and

> > > if she

> > > > agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say

> > > hurts her

> > > > so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt.

> > > She

> > > > believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife

so

> > > to speak.

> > > > Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the

> > > major

> > > > problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and

> > > have to

> > > > second guess how she might take it.

> > > >

> > > > Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what

comes of

> > > it. I

> > > > do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I

will

> > > finally

> > > > either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> > > respect back

> > > > may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

> > > >

> > > > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional

dyspraxia.

> > > This

> > > > translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or

emotions

> > > and thus

> > > > inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> > > > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

> > > >

> > > > Greg

> > > > dx AS at 53

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> On a side note, if anyone knows of a group of people that are

> married to or have family relationships with AS, I would like to

> know, as I feel very isolated most of the

> time, and I have just thought to reach out on the web, and came

> across this group.

Hi Angie and welcome,

I have been away for several weeks since the holidays...I am fairly new

to this group (since November).

I am the wife of an AS individual, and I really understand the profound

loneliness that we can experience.

Greg has meaningfully shared some insights through his effort to make a

difference in his marriage and I truly respect his commitment.

As for me with my husband, we are currently looking at living seperately

in the hopes that my husband will be able to better focus his energy on

helping to support our family (he has not worked since 2000), and use

some time away to be able to give more to our relationship and his

parenting skills by having brief, specific times to come to our home and

to have relationship with us.

We love each other, but do not seem able to coexist so that the stress

does not make me physically ill, and make him completely shut-down. Our

four sons (two who are AS also) disrespect him because he undermines

every structure (disciplinary, scheduling, social) that I have tried to

establish for our kids' sake. He does not mean to undermine these things

in his present consciousness, but I can see that he has made choices

(repeated ones) that reinforce his rigid, unchanging behaviors.

He has yet to experience any lasting awareness that he does make

choices--I think that this is because he does not understand his

emotions (as Greg pointed out) or even his body feelings. He experiences

everything as anxiety or as an interruption to his focus on maintaining

a quiet place in his mind to exist without too much stimulus.

I am scared...because my doctor has warned me about my stress load,

because my mom died of cancer, because I know that I am 50 in a few

days, and I have no interest in leaving my marriage in the hopes of

having another relationship. I worry about our boys...they all have

school, social and discipline problems that come from the lack of male

role-modeling and mentoring they have experienced.

Selfishly, the prospect of living the rest of my life alone (whether in

the same dwelling with my husband, or living seperately while still

married) is not something I have been able to make peace with.

But, I truly know now that I am not the only one going through

this--reading, learning and sharing with this group has been an absolute

lifeline to me. I will be glad to be a friend to you as you continue

walking through this journey that we are all sharing in our own ways.

Sharon NT(?) wife and mom of AS family

[Guest guest]

> On a side note, if anyone knows of a group of people that are

> married to or have family relationships with AS, I would like to

> know, as I feel very isolated most of the

> time, and I have just thought to reach out on the web, and came

> across this group.

Hi Angie and welcome,

I have been away for several weeks since the holidays...I am fairly new

to this group (since November).

I am the wife of an AS individual, and I really understand the profound

loneliness that we can experience.

Greg has meaningfully shared some insights through his effort to make a

difference in his marriage and I truly respect his commitment.

As for me with my husband, we are currently looking at living seperately

in the hopes that my husband will be able to better focus his energy on

helping to support our family (he has not worked since 2000), and use

some time away to be able to give more to our relationship and his

parenting skills by having brief, specific times to come to our home and

to have relationship with us.

We love each other, but do not seem able to coexist so that the stress

does not make me physically ill, and make him completely shut-down. Our

four sons (two who are AS also) disrespect him because he undermines

every structure (disciplinary, scheduling, social) that I have tried to

establish for our kids' sake. He does not mean to undermine these things

in his present consciousness, but I can see that he has made choices

(repeated ones) that reinforce his rigid, unchanging behaviors.

He has yet to experience any lasting awareness that he does make

choices--I think that this is because he does not understand his

emotions (as Greg pointed out) or even his body feelings. He experiences

everything as anxiety or as an interruption to his focus on maintaining

a quiet place in his mind to exist without too much stimulus.

I am scared...because my doctor has warned me about my stress load,

because my mom died of cancer, because I know that I am 50 in a few

days, and I have no interest in leaving my marriage in the hopes of

having another relationship. I worry about our boys...they all have

school, social and discipline problems that come from the lack of male

role-modeling and mentoring they have experienced.

Selfishly, the prospect of living the rest of my life alone (whether in

the same dwelling with my husband, or living seperately while still

married) is not something I have been able to make peace with.

But, I truly know now that I am not the only one going through

this--reading, learning and sharing with this group has been an absolute

lifeline to me. I will be glad to be a friend to you as you continue

walking through this journey that we are all sharing in our own ways.

Sharon NT(?) wife and mom of AS family

[Guest guest]

,

I am glad you are sharing yourself and your needs here in the group. I

found this group in November 2007 and it has really meant a lot to me.

Since I was away for several weeks from the list, I have missed a lot of

posts, but want to extend a hand of friendship to you along with my

offer to all on this list.

I have been married to my dxh for 17 years and we are struggling. We

both thought that diagnosis would make a difference, but for us, while

it has added understanding of the behaviors, it has led to little or no

change, except on my part.

I really understand what you are saying--I am developing a writing

career in the hopes of providing for us (he does not work now) and will

be unveiling my first blog for families dealing with Asperger's, soon.

We are in north Alabama, though we met in the Cincinnati, Ohio area

where my husband came (from LA) to do his doctoral work in music

composition.

I would encourage you to aggressively consider diagnosis for your son

whom you suspect has similar AS type behaviors as his dad. We delayed,

thinking we were sparing our sons some stigma...instead we have done

them a great disservice by not getting some interventive treatment

earlier. They are having school and social problems that might not be as

pervasive if we had gotten help earlier. Now as teens, there is little

available to assist us with their specialized needs.

I hope you will keep returning if you are new, and if you are a

long-time member, I am glad to meet you here!

Sharon NT(?) wife and mom of AS family

> >

> > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> distrust

> > NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they

> are trying

> > to change.

> >

> > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> habitually

> > throughout our married life. Strange that what you should value

> becomes

> > more valuable when you have lost it.

> >

> > Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot

> of

> > courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I

> think the

> > penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the

> consequences

> > words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a

> > relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this

> was the

> > following:

> >

> > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> realising

> > that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that I

> had

> > chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a

> choice I

> > made means that I am really responsible for it. So the counsellor

> helped

> > me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to

> engage with

> > my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do

> not " get

> > it " or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to

> choose how

> > I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

> >

> > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

> within 3

> > months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am

> going to

> > really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and

> try not

> > to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> seven

> > principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> helped me

> > realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf.

> She

> > wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the

> head. To

> > quote the words she used

> >

> > " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

> you want

> > a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and you

> were

> > physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life

> and the

> > kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that

> this is

> > now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have so

> far? Why

> > should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you

> want it

> > now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a relationship

> on that

> > you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you

> change?

> >

> > So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her

> help. I have

> > said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

> initiate

> > conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

> experiences. I

> > want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> happy

> > alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a

> movie

> > rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the

> garden

> > and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has been

> > ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to

> roll

> > over and cause more pain.

> >

> > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her

> fears etc.

> > but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> her the

> > questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of

> times I

> > have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I intend

> to spend

> > more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real

> challenge

> > for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am home

> and not

> > problem solving something from work or at home. Also I need to

> connect

> > with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their

> mother and

> > are not inclined to make it easy for me.

> >

> > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

> clean up

> > my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

> if she

> > agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say

> hurts her

> > so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt.

> She

> > believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so

> to speak.

> > Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the

> major

> > problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and

> have to

> > second guess how she might take it.

> >

> > Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of

> it. I

> > do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> finally

> > either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> respect back

> > may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

> >

> > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.

> This

> > translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions

> and thus

> > inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

> >

> > Greg

> > dx AS at 53

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I am glad you are sharing yourself and your needs here in the group. I

found this group in November 2007 and it has really meant a lot to me.

Since I was away for several weeks from the list, I have missed a lot of

posts, but want to extend a hand of friendship to you along with my

offer to all on this list.

I have been married to my dxh for 17 years and we are struggling. We

both thought that diagnosis would make a difference, but for us, while

it has added understanding of the behaviors, it has led to little or no

change, except on my part.

I really understand what you are saying--I am developing a writing

career in the hopes of providing for us (he does not work now) and will

be unveiling my first blog for families dealing with Asperger's, soon.

We are in north Alabama, though we met in the Cincinnati, Ohio area

where my husband came (from LA) to do his doctoral work in music

composition.

I would encourage you to aggressively consider diagnosis for your son

whom you suspect has similar AS type behaviors as his dad. We delayed,

thinking we were sparing our sons some stigma...instead we have done

them a great disservice by not getting some interventive treatment

earlier. They are having school and social problems that might not be as

pervasive if we had gotten help earlier. Now as teens, there is little

available to assist us with their specialized needs.

I hope you will keep returning if you are new, and if you are a

long-time member, I am glad to meet you here!

Sharon NT(?) wife and mom of AS family

> >

> > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> distrust

> > NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say they

> are trying

> > to change.

> >

> > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> habitually

> > throughout our married life. Strange that what you should value

> becomes

> > more valuable when you have lost it.

> >

> > Perhaps I have had an epiphany but if that is so I will need a lot

> of

> > courage to take the necessary steps to make the most of it. I

> think the

> > penny dropped when the counsellor helped me understand the

> consequences

> > words and lack of action have, and how damaging it can be to a

> > relationship. One of the things that helped me understand this

> was the

> > following:

> >

> > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> realising

> > that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my wife that I

> had

> > chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that is a

> choice I

> > made means that I am really responsible for it. So the counsellor

> helped

> > me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I can choose to

> engage with

> > my wife. That in itself is a very powerful message. So when I do

> not " get

> > it " or do or say something that upsets or hurts her, I have to

> choose how

> > I respond not fall back on old negative habits.

> >

> > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

> within 3

> > months. I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am

> going to

> > really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and

> try not

> > to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> seven

> > principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> helped me

> > realise that there are tools I can use to make a better efforf.

> She

> > wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me on the

> head. To

> > quote the words she used

> >

> > " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide

> you want

> > a relationship! What about when I wanted a relationship and you

> were

> > physically or emotionally unavailable to be involved in my life

> and the

> > kids lives? What ulteriror motive do you have that you find that

> this is

> > now necessary? What can you offer me other than what you have so

> far? Why

> > should I take a risk of being let down again? Just because you

> want it

> > now it HAS to happen! What are you going to base a relationship

> on that

> > you have destroyed? You still have Aspergers so how can you

> change?

> >

> > So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her

> help. I have

> > said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

> initiate

> > conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

> experiences. I

> > want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> happy

> > alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch a

> movie

> > rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about the

> garden

> > and what she may like to do with it. The response so far has been

> > ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her to

> roll

> > over and cause more pain.

> >

> > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her

> fears etc.

> > but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> her the

> > questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number of

> times I

> > have said sorry this weekend. I have also told her that I intend

> to spend

> > more time at home and not be so obsessive about work. The real

> challenge

> > for me I think will be being in the moment with her when I am home

> and not

> > problem solving something from work or at home. Also I need to

> connect

> > with my two daughters who both feel very protective of their

> mother and

> > are not inclined to make it easy for me.

> >

> > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

> clean up

> > my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

> if she

> > agrees. I have asked her also to tell me when anytthing I say

> hurts her

> > so that I can understand what or how I say things causes hurt.

> She

> > believes I say things to deliberately hurt or twist the knife so

> to speak.

> > Explaining that I am often unaware when she feels hurt is the

> major

> > problem. It seems I have to be so careful about what I say and

> have to

> > second guess how she might take it.

> >

> > Oh well. Lets see if I can stick to my goal and see what comes of

> it. I

> > do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> finally

> > either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> respect back

> > may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

> >

> > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.

> This

> > translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions

> and thus

> > inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

> >

> > Greg

> > dx AS at 53

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks !

It is good to hear from you.

Really, it is not a matter of the kids' *perception* as much as the

functional *presence* of their dad, who is *permissive* in my

absence, and has no ability to assert himself even when it is for the

kids' benefit.

I once arranged for him to have a key (to a small church) so that he

could finish his doctoral thesis in a quiet environment. He NEVER

ONCE went to the building to work, even though I reminded him that it

was available.

Presumably, I would have had to drive him there, and walk him in the

door (which I refused to do). At some point, he must behave with some

level of adult/independent responsibility in order to live an adult

life.

As to space in the home, again, he engages in repetetive behaviors so

much so that the only way to enforce any change in our family is for

him to remove himself from the house.

He is unable to do this functionally without a job to go to every day

so the next reasonable option is probably for him to live elsewhere

(hopefully, not permanently). It is not what I want, or what he

wants, but after reading Bill's post ('not for the faint of heart'),

I am sure that my husband must have the space and time necessary to

gather his thoughts about what his commitment is to having

relationship...with his wife and his kids.

As to my 50th, I am feeling more confident, and somehow liberated

from some of my self-recrimination. I know that I am making changes

that will move me toward a healthier life, so I guess I don't mind

this half-century mark too much!

Sharon

>

> > On a side note, if anyone knows of a group of people that are

> > married to or have family relationships with AS, I would like to

> > know, as I feel very isolated most of the

> > time, and I have just thought to reach out on the web, and came

> > across this group.

>

> Hi Angie and welcome,

>

> I have been away for several weeks since the holidays...I am

fairly new

> to this group (since November).

>

> I am the wife of an AS individual, and I really understand the

profound

> loneliness that we can experience.

>

> Greg has meaningfully shared some insights through his effort to

make a

> difference in his marriage and I truly respect his commitment.

>

> As for me with my husband, we are currently looking at living

seperately

> in the hopes that my husband will be able to better focus his

energy on

> helping to support our family (he has not worked since 2000), and

use

> some time away to be able to give more to our relationship and his

> parenting skills by having brief, specific times to come to our

home and

> to have relationship with us.

>

> We love each other, but do not seem able to coexist so that the

stress

> does not make me physically ill, and make him completely shut-

down. Our

> four sons (two who are AS also) disrespect him because he

undermines

> every structure (disciplinary, scheduling, social) that I have

tried to

> establish for our kids' sake. He does not mean to undermine these

things

> in his present consciousness, but I can see that he has made

choices

> (repeated ones) that reinforce his rigid, unchanging behaviors.

>

> He has yet to experience any lasting awareness that he does make

> choices--I think that this is because he does not understand his

> emotions (as Greg pointed out) or even his body feelings. He

experiences

> everything as anxiety or as an interruption to his focus on

maintaining

> a quiet place in his mind to exist without too much stimulus.

>

> I am scared...because my doctor has warned me about my stress load,

> because my mom died of cancer, because I know that I am 50 in a few

> days, and I have no interest in leaving my marriage in the hopes of

> having another relationship. I worry about our boys...they all have

> school, social and discipline problems that come from the lack of

male

> role-modeling and mentoring they have experienced.

>

> Selfishly, the prospect of living the rest of my life alone

(whether in

> the same dwelling with my husband, or living seperately while still

> married) is not something I have been able to make peace with.

>

> But, I truly know now that I am not the only one going through

> this--reading, learning and sharing with this group has been an

absolute

> lifeline to me. I will be glad to be a friend to you as you

continue

> walking through this journey that we are all sharing in our own

ways.

>

> Sharon NT(?) wife and mom of AS family

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

Your candid post has meant the world to me today. My husband has read it

and he *sees* what you are talking about.

Like Greg said about your words being what his wife had said, I was

stunned to read literally what I have been telling my husband for 17

years (both before and after diagnosis).

I hope you won't mind that I print this post to keep among my treasured

thoughts to consider when I get discouraged...the fact that you changed

your behavior for your wife and your relationship is both inspiration

and hope for me.

Sharon

> >

> > I sent this note to see if anyone has been able to deal with the

> > distrust NT partners tend to have of their AS spouses when they say

they

> > are trying to change.

> >

> > I have found one of the most negative responses we can make to an

> > individual iis withdrawal and sulking which is what I have done

> > habitually throughout our married life.

>

> Yes. I believe that's the single most damaging behavior engaged in by

> adult AS. And it's _lethal_ to relationships of *all* kinds.

>

> [ snip ]

> > We may think that we have to do things or say things rather than

> > realising that we can choose to do so or not to do so. I told my

wife

> > that I had chosen to behave in the way I did and that realising that

is

> > a choice I made means that I am really responsible for it.

>

> Not the best thing to say. Wrong in fact. " I choose to be an asshole "

> is not a good way to start on the path to mending.

>

> --> WARNING: From here on I'm going to be _very_ blunt.

>

> ...One AS to another, trying to " make you " *see*.

>

> > So the

> > counsellor helped me understand that I can choose to withdraw or I

can

> > choose to engage with my wife. That in itself is a very powerful

> > message. So when I do not " get it " or do or say something that

upsets or

> > hurts her, I have to choose how I respond not fall back on old

negative

> > habits.

>

> The counselor set you up. He/she provided you with two things:

> A way to get yourself into a tight double-bind, and

> a false dichotomy. You *don't* have two choices.

>

> If you truly, truly want to save your marriage, there is NO CHOICE.

You

> *must* simply NEVER withdraw or sulk. Ever again. And a lot of other

> things too. ...EVER again!

>

> Anything less is just hedging your bets. Any reasonably intelligent NT

> (your wife) will see that for what it is. And then you're dead.

>

> >

> > I have just now set a goal of trying hard to make a difference

within 3

> > months.

>

> " Try hard... " , " 3 months... " Not good enough. Just do it. Now.

> Anything else will end like the the typical New Year's resolution.

>

> This is " hard cheese " , Greg. It's also real AS/NT life.

>

> Anything less than " cold turkey " won't do it.

>

> > I got home on Friday night and told my wife that I am going to

> > really try hard to fit in more and listen to her point of view and

try

> > not to make it about me all the time. I have read a book called the

> > seven principles of making marriage work by Gottman. This has

> > helped me realise that there are tools I can use to make a better

> > efforf. She wanted to know when the lightning struck or who hit me

on

> > the head. To quote the words she used

> >

> > " So after 30 years of not wanting me in your life you now decide you

> > want a relationship!

> [ snip the completely predictable remainder ]

>

> > So I kept telling her that I need to try and I asked for her help.

>

> She can't help you. You're an alien being; she wouldn't know how or

> where to start!

> You on the other hand know full well what's going on, and that *you*

> are the problem. *You* must change.

> Yeah, not fair. Life's not fair. *You* must adapt to the NT world.

> It won't adapt to you.

>

> You seem to have adapted well enough in your work-a-day world. For

money.

> Now do it for your wife, for love (or at least out of compassion).

> You already have the skill. Use it.

>

> >

> > I have said this several times over the weekend. I even tried to

initiate

> > conversations about what we can do to develop some shared

experiences.

> > I want to see if we can be happy together rather than trying to be

> > happy alone. I even sat in the family room with her tonight to watch

a

> > movie rather than do my own thing. Tried making suggestions about

the

> > garden and what she may like to do with it.

>

> This is classic. You *cannot* just talk the walk, even a little bit.

> You must *walk* it.

> " Actions speak louder than words. " Just DO what you known must be

> done. No preambles. Don't describe it; do it. No words. No " see, I'm

> trying " . Do it.

>

> > The response so far has

> > been ridicule and put downs with accusations about how I expect her

to

> > roll over and cause more pain.

> >

> > Now I understand the reaction may be her way of expressing her fears

> > etc. but basically she does not trust my motives. And to be fair to

> > her the questions are quite valid. I have lost count of the number

of

> > times I have said sorry this weekend.

>

> A little way below I'm giving some advice...

>

> > I have also told her that I

> > intend to spend more time at home and not be so obsessive about

work.

> > The real challenge for me I think will be being in the moment with

her

>

> That " being in the moment " likely is something you, me, and likely

*all*

> real AS cannot do.

> Well, we can. But it's *nothing* like what the " shrinks " mean. And

> what *we* do won't help your wife at all. You've ample proof of that??

>

> I'm not sure NTs can do it either. It's a construct with only poor

> evidence for its existence. Seems like a " right way to be " . But there

> are many " right " ways. I doubt even good shrinks can tell you the

right

> one for you. Or for me, or for anyone else including NTs.

>

> *My* shrink was pretty good. He couldn't explain " in the moment " . Or

> tell me when I was getting close; or what I was doing wrong.

> Just as autism is a way of being, " in the moment " is an NT way of

> being. I can't do it (their way); I doubt you can.

>

> > when I am home and not problem solving something from work or at

home.

> > Also I need to connect with my two daughters who both feel very

> > protective of their mother and are not inclined to make it easy for

me.

> >

> > Needless to say I have felt quite discouraged. But I am going to

clean

> > up my act, get fit and make sure that I do more to help if I can and

if

> > she agrees.

> [ snip ]

>

> " If I can... " , " if she agrees " . You're hedging your bets. Just do it.

> You've done it at work. Do it at home as well. Make your wife " Job 1 " .

>

> > I do feel that 2008 will be a better year where my wife and I will

> > finally either make it together or make it apart. Even gaining her

> > respect back may be enough. It would definitely be progress.

>

> You'll gain respect through concrete acts. Things you *do* without

> preamble or hedging.

>

> >

> > BTW the psychologist advised me that I have emotional dyspraxia.

This

>

> Words without meaning, without explanatory power. You *know* you have

a

> problem. How does " emotional dyspraxia " help you know more than you do

> already?

>

> The very first shrink I ever saw (I was 25 or so) told me I was an

> " emotional cripple " .

> Well, no. He couldn't have known what it was. Shrinks today don't

> know either. Emotionally different for sure; but *far* from crippled.

>

> > translates I think to lack of awareness of feelings or emotions and

thus

> > inhibiting normal responses to emotional behaviour from

> > others. Do all AS on the list suffer this?

>

> ly, I doubt we do. I'm *certain* those close to us do suffer!

>

> [ADVICE}

>

> ...In the shape of a story.

> When my own epiphany was upon me, and I saw reality at last, in a

moment

> when we both were calm I told my wife;

> " Our relationship is going down the tubes. And it's clear all our

> problems have their roots in MY behavior. NONE of them are any fault

of

> yours. *I* will change. I know how to, and I _will_.

> " _No promises_ but one: I _will_ change. Don't know if our problems

> will go away, or even if they can.

> " But there _will_ be perceptible differences; some may be useful to

> us both. I hope maybe your life at least will be easier and happier.

> " I'll not say this again. If I do, we'll *both* know *I* failed. "

>

> Epilogue:

> Never again did I try to explain what I did - unless she asked. And

> then I was very careful, very thoughtful in my responses. If it were a

> problem I could fix, I said " OK; I'll fix that. " And I did.

> Within months she was singing again. Quietly, even a bit shyly, but

> *singing* for the first time in decades.

> Almost three years later I've never " said my piece " again. My wife's

> life *has* improved. *My* life has improved. It's almost like (dare I

> say it?) ...we *together* are happy again.

> We have disagreements ( " normal " couples do, yes?). Now they always

> end in something at least workable for us both. No going to bed angry

> for her. No days-long sulks and silences for me.

> For her part my wife learned *reliably* how not to press my buttons -

> just like I've learned *reliably* how not to punch hers.

> The process continues; probably *must* for the rest of our lives. Is

> it worth it? Damn Straight! It's kinda like " normal " now, y' know?

>

> It can be done.

>

> A short while back someone on ASPIRES asked why my wife wasn't a

member.

> Her response, when I asked her: " Why would I need to be? " That says

> it all, I think. I'd like to think too, our experience may help

others.

>

> [/ADVICE]

>

> - Bill; 75, AS; married 40 years - been there, done a'that.

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

> The conclusion is that if it affects me, of course I will change. If

it

> affects her or my family I did not because it was not important enough

> unless it affects me. Talk about eyes wide shut.

This is the *motivation* problem that I have ranted about for years. I

have tried to describe this to my husband, and I know he just doesn't

understand.

I admire your tenacity in desiring to understand and even more to

actually do something. Wow.

Sharon