Re: Reminder from as-if

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that post Tim. As usual, you sent something really thought-provoking.I've often thought that people on this list know more about Aspergers in adults and how Aspergers "presents" in adulthood than anyone else. What a list of criteria we could put together with both AS and NT members' input! Makes me appreciate what a great thing and friends did by putting this list together.Gratefully,DanekaTim Channon wrote: Maybe it is time to give a reminder. Sadly as-if is offline, I assume gone but still

exists in archive.org Quote: - Discovery Criteria by T. Attwood and C. Gray A qualitative advantage in social interaction, as manifested by a majority of the following: Peer relationships characterized by absolute loyalty and impeccable dependability Free of sexist, "age-ist", or culturalist biases; ability to regard others at "face value" Speaking one�s mind irrespective of social context or adherence to personal beliefs Ability to pursue personal theory or perspective despite conflicting evidence Seeking an audience or friends capable of: enthusiasm for unique interests and topics; consideration of details; spending time discussing a topic that may not be of primary interest Listening without continual judgment or assumption Interested primarily in significant contributions to conversation; preferring to avoid "ritualistic small talk" or

socially trivial statements and superficial conversation. Seeking sincere, positive, genuine friends with an unassuming sense of humour. Fluent in "Asperger'sese", a social language characterized by at least three of the following: A determination to seek the truth Conversation free of hidden meaning or agenda Advanced vocabulary and interest in words Fascination with word-based humour, such as puns Advanced use of pictorial metaphor Cognitive skills characterized by at least four of the following: Strong preference for detail over gestalt Original, often unique perspective in problem solving Exceptional memory and/or recall of details often forgotten or disregarded by others, for example: names, dates, schedules, routines Avid perseverance in gathering and cataloguing information on a topic of interest Persistence of

thought Encyclopaedic or "CD ROM" knowledge of one or more topics Knowledge of routines and a focused desire to maintain order and accuracy Clarity of values/decision making unaltered by political or financial factors Additional possible features: Acute sensitivity to specific sensory experiences and stimuli, for example: hearing, touch, vision, and/or smell Strength in individual sports and games, particularly those involving endurance or visual accuracy, including rowing, swimming, bowling, chess "Social unsung hero" with trusting optimism: frequent victim of social weaknesses of others, while steadfast in the belief of the possibility of genuine friendship Increased probability over general population of attending university after high school Often take care of others outside the range of typical development Summary of the Diagnostic Criteria

In very brief summary I would describe Asperger's syndrome as: At least average intelligence. Normal language development. Different style of communication and interaction, with social problems likely as a result. Different style of thinking, with learning difficulties and/or unusual gifts likely as a result. Different style of perceptions, with non-typical behaviours and reactions likely as a result. I think the big dilemma with diagnostic criteria is that they only exist in the first place because they are designed to identify the existence of a problem, so they are bound to be quite negative and focusing on the bad rather than the good. After all, doctors don't have time to diagnose people with being OK... they are there to help people who need it. People with Asperger's syndrome usually need help, because it can be very disabling and traumatic being different, but the

experience is different for everybody... Some people need help just to cope with life at all. Some people struggle because they lack the support and understanding that others take for granted. Some people are lucky enough to have the support and understanding they need and cope about as well as anybody. There are three ways of looking at that... either some people are more mildly 'Asperger's' than others OR having Asperger's syndrome itself is not a problem, but the consequences of it sometimes can be and often are, (possibly depending on your personality and circumstances), OR it could be a combination of both. I'll leave you with that to think about anyway because I don't know what I think yet.

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

I agree: I have flagged this list for future reference. It is amazing how many of the things on it I either fit now, or used to fit. I laughed really hard all through reading it.I will be formally tested in about 8 days, and have been a bit concerned that as I have clearly improved both my behavior and ToM as a result of this and other lists, I might not qualify. I am tired of flying under the radar. After reading this list, it is a relief to see just how naturally I do appear to fit! I only hope I can understand the questions well enough to give a coherent reply. But, I guess lack of drive towards central coherence is one of the criteria.My motivation for getting tested is to learn as much about myself as I can, so that I can be the best that i can be. It is not about getting any money.I have a step cousin who is AS, but I only know because a relative told me-- not her. I would love to share

a bit with her, and I am not too sure how to break the ice. Any great ideas?Daneka Wheeler wrote: Thanks for that post Tim. As usual, you sent something really thought-provoking.I've often thought that people on this list know more about Aspergers in adults and how Aspergers "presents" in adulthood than anyone else. What a list of criteria we could put together with both AS and NT members' input! Makes me appreciate what a great thing and friends did by putting this list

together.Gratefully,DanekaTim Channon wrote: Maybe it is time to give a reminder. Sadly as-if is offline, I assume gone but still exists in archive.org Quote: - Discovery Criteria by T. Attwood and C. Gray A qualitative advantage in social interaction, as manifested by a majority of the following: Peer relationships characterized by absolute loyalty and impeccable dependability Free of sexist, "age-ist", or culturalist biases; ability to regard others at "face value" Speaking one�s mind irrespective of social context or adherence to personal beliefs Ability to pursue personal theory or perspective despite conflicting evidence Seeking an audience or friends capable of: enthusiasm for

unique interests and topics; consideration of details; spending time discussing a topic that may not be of primary interest Listening without continual judgment or assumption Interested primarily in significant contributions to conversation; preferring to avoid "ritualistic small talk" or socially trivial statements and superficial conversation. Seeking sincere, positive, genuine friends with an unassuming sense of humour. Fluent in "Asperger'sese", a social language characterized by at least three of the following: A determination to seek the truth Conversation free of hidden meaning or agenda Advanced vocabulary and interest in words Fascination with word-based humour, such as puns Advanced use of pictorial metaphor Cognitive skills characterized by at least four of the following: Strong preference for detail over gestalt

Original, often unique perspective in problem solving Exceptional memory and/or recall of details often forgotten or disregarded by others, for example: names, dates, schedules, routines Avid perseverance in gathering and cataloguing information on a topic of interest Persistence of thought Encyclopaedic or "CD ROM" knowledge of one or more topics Knowledge of routines and a focused desire to maintain order and accuracy Clarity of values/decision making unaltered by political or financial factors Additional possible features: Acute sensitivity to specific sensory experiences and stimuli, for example: hearing, touch, vision, and/or smell Strength in individual sports and games, particularly those involving endurance or visual accuracy, including rowing, swimming, bowling, chess "Social unsung hero" with trusting optimism: frequent victim of social

weaknesses of others, while steadfast in the belief of the possibility of genuine friendship Increased probability over general population of attending university after high school Often take care of others outside the range of typical development Summary of the Diagnostic Criteria In very brief summary I would describe Asperger's syndrome as: At least average intelligence. Normal language development. Different style of communication and interaction, with social problems likely as a result. Different style of thinking, with learning difficulties and/or unusual gifts likely as a result. Different style of perceptions, with non-typical behaviours and reactions likely as a result. I think the big dilemma with diagnostic criteria is that they only exist in the first place because they are designed to identify the existence of a problem, so they are

bound to be quite negative and focusing on the bad rather than the good. After all, doctors don't have time to diagnose people with being OK... they are there to help people who need it. People with Asperger's syndrome usually need help, because it can be very disabling and traumatic being different, but the experience is different for everybody... Some people need help just to cope with life at all. Some people struggle because they lack the support and understanding that others take for granted. Some people are lucky enough to have the support and understanding they need and cope about as well as anybody. There are three ways of looking at that... either some people are more mildly 'Asperger's' than others OR having Asperger's syndrome itself is not a problem, but the consequences of it sometimes can be and often are, (possibly depending on your personality and circumstances), OR it

could be a combination of both. I'll leave you with that to think about anyway because I don't know what I think yet. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

I agree: I have flagged this list for future reference. It is amazing how many of the things on it I either fit now, or used to fit. I laughed really hard all through reading it.I will be formally tested in about 8 days, and have been a bit concerned that as I have clearly improved both my behavior and ToM as a result of this and other lists, I might not qualify. I am tired of flying under the radar. After reading this list, it is a relief to see just how naturally I do appear to fit! I only hope I can understand the questions well enough to give a coherent reply. But, I guess lack of drive towards central coherence is one of the criteria.My motivation for getting tested is to learn as much about myself as I can, so that I can be the best that i can be. It is not about getting any money.I have a step cousin who is AS, but I only know because a relative told me-- not her. I would love to share

a bit with her, and I am not too sure how to break the ice. Any great ideas?Daneka Wheeler wrote: Thanks for that post Tim. As usual, you sent something really thought-provoking.I've often thought that people on this list know more about Aspergers in adults and how Aspergers "presents" in adulthood than anyone else. What a list of criteria we could put together with both AS and NT members' input! Makes me appreciate what a great thing and friends did by putting this list

together.Gratefully,DanekaTim Channon wrote: Maybe it is time to give a reminder. Sadly as-if is offline, I assume gone but still exists in archive.org Quote: - Discovery Criteria by T. Attwood and C. Gray A qualitative advantage in social interaction, as manifested by a majority of the following: Peer relationships characterized by absolute loyalty and impeccable dependability Free of sexist, "age-ist", or culturalist biases; ability to regard others at "face value" Speaking one�s mind irrespective of social context or adherence to personal beliefs Ability to pursue personal theory or perspective despite conflicting evidence Seeking an audience or friends capable of: enthusiasm for

unique interests and topics; consideration of details; spending time discussing a topic that may not be of primary interest Listening without continual judgment or assumption Interested primarily in significant contributions to conversation; preferring to avoid "ritualistic small talk" or socially trivial statements and superficial conversation. Seeking sincere, positive, genuine friends with an unassuming sense of humour. Fluent in "Asperger'sese", a social language characterized by at least three of the following: A determination to seek the truth Conversation free of hidden meaning or agenda Advanced vocabulary and interest in words Fascination with word-based humour, such as puns Advanced use of pictorial metaphor Cognitive skills characterized by at least four of the following: Strong preference for detail over gestalt

Original, often unique perspective in problem solving Exceptional memory and/or recall of details often forgotten or disregarded by others, for example: names, dates, schedules, routines Avid perseverance in gathering and cataloguing information on a topic of interest Persistence of thought Encyclopaedic or "CD ROM" knowledge of one or more topics Knowledge of routines and a focused desire to maintain order and accuracy Clarity of values/decision making unaltered by political or financial factors Additional possible features: Acute sensitivity to specific sensory experiences and stimuli, for example: hearing, touch, vision, and/or smell Strength in individual sports and games, particularly those involving endurance or visual accuracy, including rowing, swimming, bowling, chess "Social unsung hero" with trusting optimism: frequent victim of social

weaknesses of others, while steadfast in the belief of the possibility of genuine friendship Increased probability over general population of attending university after high school Often take care of others outside the range of typical development Summary of the Diagnostic Criteria In very brief summary I would describe Asperger's syndrome as: At least average intelligence. Normal language development. Different style of communication and interaction, with social problems likely as a result. Different style of thinking, with learning difficulties and/or unusual gifts likely as a result. Different style of perceptions, with non-typical behaviours and reactions likely as a result. I think the big dilemma with diagnostic criteria is that they only exist in the first place because they are designed to identify the existence of a problem, so they are

bound to be quite negative and focusing on the bad rather than the good. After all, doctors don't have time to diagnose people with being OK... they are there to help people who need it. People with Asperger's syndrome usually need help, because it can be very disabling and traumatic being different, but the experience is different for everybody... Some people need help just to cope with life at all. Some people struggle because they lack the support and understanding that others take for granted. Some people are lucky enough to have the support and understanding they need and cope about as well as anybody. There are three ways of looking at that... either some people are more mildly 'Asperger's' than others OR having Asperger's syndrome itself is not a problem, but the consequences of it sometimes can be and often are, (possibly depending on your personality and circumstances), OR it

could be a combination of both. I'll leave you with that to think about anyway because I don't know what I think yet. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

I make it clear the post is copied from the old as-if web site, not my

words.

All that seems to be left is here, where it will be slow. Be gentle with

the archive servers. Don't expect everything to work, will be bad links.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.as-if.org.uk/

I didn't originally simply point at the web page there because the

purpose of posting was avoiding the usual bad side stuff.

Verleen wrote:

> Tim, that excerpt was very interesting. I guess I'm confused by it

> though. While many of the listed aspects are right on in my limited

> experience, some key ones are absent from many Aspies, mine included.

> Mine does not seek friends or an audience of any kind, or have any

> sense of humor.

The no sense of humour is unusual, oh yes.

My doctor, Monday, take one tablet on retiring.

Me: Do I have to wait until I am 65?

said deadpan of course.

Wordplay for me goes right back into childhood. Today I pay for it,

usually by worldpay.

He avoids people like a plague.

I do. But not always.

From what people

> here have discussed, it seems some degree of antisocial behavior is

> quite prevalent and sometimes to the extent that it interferes with

> work and life.

Yes, always. Calling it antisocial is not nice, suggests an intent which

will not be there. Would you be comfortable going out socially only

wearing your underwear? I think you would call off, be reluctant, too

painful, makes you antisocial. See the point?

At one point I was formally diagnosed with a classic misdiagnosis,

Generalised Anxiety Disorder and Social Phobia, plus spelling things

with an s

Social phobia it ain't.

So many of the listed aspects are centered around

> sociability. I suppose that I focused on this because my husband's

> antisocial behavior, as well as his inability to even socialize and

> communicate with a spouse (me), significantly causes problems in our

> marriage.

There is the possibility that there is a context. Perhaps the people you

have around in your circles are ones where he is uncomfortable.

Do you for example see him when he is completely out of your sight with

others? (food for thought)

Please don't take offence at that, darn it, spelling with a c now,

sometimes I find whole groups far too much for me, especially some

groups of women. Same thing can be with a particular family, too up

front, touchy feelie but those words are not quite right. Keeping a

distance is self preservation.

My wife complains that I seem very sociable with others. I will chat

easily with strangers. Now, some head shrink people would make much of

that saying it shows a fear of intimacy. I do not know but it is

unlikely to be the same thing as an NT under the same circumstances.

As one of the other ladies here said, those of us who are

> married to an Aspie lead a life of loneliness.

Yes, see Maxine Aston etc. Emotional deprivation == lack of non verbal etc.

>

> I like the questions and perspectives near the end of your post. I

> think there is some truth in each of them.

You can go and look at all the site now.

>

> Verleen

>

Apologies folks about my email AV putting a tag line. For some reason it

is ignoring instructions not to! I downgrade versions, sigh.

[Guest guest]

I make it clear the post is copied from the old as-if web site, not my

words.

All that seems to be left is here, where it will be slow. Be gentle with

the archive servers. Don't expect everything to work, will be bad links.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.as-if.org.uk/

I didn't originally simply point at the web page there because the

purpose of posting was avoiding the usual bad side stuff.

Verleen wrote:

> Tim, that excerpt was very interesting. I guess I'm confused by it

> though. While many of the listed aspects are right on in my limited

> experience, some key ones are absent from many Aspies, mine included.

> Mine does not seek friends or an audience of any kind, or have any

> sense of humor.

The no sense of humour is unusual, oh yes.

My doctor, Monday, take one tablet on retiring.

Me: Do I have to wait until I am 65?

said deadpan of course.

Wordplay for me goes right back into childhood. Today I pay for it,

usually by worldpay.

He avoids people like a plague.

I do. But not always.

From what people

> here have discussed, it seems some degree of antisocial behavior is

> quite prevalent and sometimes to the extent that it interferes with

> work and life.

Yes, always. Calling it antisocial is not nice, suggests an intent which

will not be there. Would you be comfortable going out socially only

wearing your underwear? I think you would call off, be reluctant, too

painful, makes you antisocial. See the point?

At one point I was formally diagnosed with a classic misdiagnosis,

Generalised Anxiety Disorder and Social Phobia, plus spelling things

with an s

Social phobia it ain't.

So many of the listed aspects are centered around

> sociability. I suppose that I focused on this because my husband's

> antisocial behavior, as well as his inability to even socialize and

> communicate with a spouse (me), significantly causes problems in our

> marriage.

There is the possibility that there is a context. Perhaps the people you

have around in your circles are ones where he is uncomfortable.

Do you for example see him when he is completely out of your sight with

others? (food for thought)

Please don't take offence at that, darn it, spelling with a c now,

sometimes I find whole groups far too much for me, especially some

groups of women. Same thing can be with a particular family, too up

front, touchy feelie but those words are not quite right. Keeping a

distance is self preservation.

My wife complains that I seem very sociable with others. I will chat

easily with strangers. Now, some head shrink people would make much of

that saying it shows a fear of intimacy. I do not know but it is

unlikely to be the same thing as an NT under the same circumstances.

As one of the other ladies here said, those of us who are

> married to an Aspie lead a life of loneliness.

Yes, see Maxine Aston etc. Emotional deprivation == lack of non verbal etc.

>

> I like the questions and perspectives near the end of your post. I

> think there is some truth in each of them.

You can go and look at all the site now.

>

> Verleen

>

Apologies folks about my email AV putting a tag line. For some reason it

is ignoring instructions not to! I downgrade versions, sigh.

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

> Original source for this article:

>

> The Discovery of " Aspie " Criteria

> By Carol Gray and Tony Attwood, M.Sc., Ph.D., MAPS., AFBPsS

> http://www.thegraycenter.org/sectionsdetails.cfm?id=38

Good on yer, thanks.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tim. You are right, I can see your point (with the underwear

example....lol). The word 'antisocial' is not nice, but what would

you call it? He does not want any human being on the acres of our

property. He gets very anxious just knowing they are outside

somewhere while he is in the house. I don't ask him to come out and

meet them even. If they come into the house, his anxiety hits 10 on

a scale of one to ten. He has no friends and never had any. He

does not talk to people at work. I have visited him at work and they

have commented on what a loner he is. He doesn't want to talk to

anyone, period, except me and my daughter. He hates the telephone

because there is conversation with a person involved. He would never

participate in a forum like this because he doesn't like even talking

to people in cyber space. As for him not feeling comfortable with my

friends and family, it really hasn't been put to test because they

don't come here. I go to them. All my family lives in another state.

They are afraid of him. In the beginning, 14 yrs ago, I invited a

friend or a couple over for dinner. It was a horrible experience for

everyone and no one comes now. He doesn't really know who is in my

circles. I don't have many because of my physical disability (to get

out and about) to begin with. If I bump into a friend while we are

out to dinner, he won't even say hi to them. He walks away. He gets

upset if I talk to the waitress, exchanging pleasantries. When I

could no longer take care of our home and went into a power

wheelchair, I hired a housekeeper who quit because he was screaming,

throwing things and slamming doors because she was there. His father

never allowed any one on his property either during his 70+ years

after he married. His mother couldn't have her family or friends

visit. His children weren't allowed to have any other children on

the property, even in the back yard. Childhood weekends were spent

in the remote Adirondack mountains backpacking as a family where there

were no other human beings around.

As for talking with me, it is brief, filled with repetitive sentences,

and centered around his world about his pets, his work, his problems,

his electronics, etc. If I try to talk about something about me, he

walks away mid sentence, usually. If I tell him I'm very sick and

might have the flu, he doesn't sympathize, but goes on about how he's

feeling and when he had the flu four years ago.

So Tim, what would you call this behavior in ? If not

antisocial, then what? I'm not trying to get into a word-game

between an NT and an AS. I am trying to understand and possibly

change some behaviors that sometimes make it difficult to continue to

cohabit. Verleen

>

> From what people

> > here have discussed, it seems some degree of antisocial behavior is

> > quite prevalent and sometimes to the extent that it interferes with

> > work and life.

>

> Yes, always. Calling it antisocial is not nice, suggests an intent

which

> will not be there. Would you be comfortable going out socially only

> wearing your underwear? I think you would call off, be reluctant, too

> painful, makes you antisocial. See the point?

>

>

I suppose that I focused on this because my husband's

> > antisocial behavior, as well as his inability to even socialize and

> > communicate with a spouse (me), significantly causes problems in our

> > marriage.

>

> There is the possibility that there is a context. Perhaps the people

you

> have around in your circles are ones where he is uncomfortable.

> Do you for example see him when he is completely out of your sight with

> others? (food for thought)

>

> Please don't take offence at that, darn it, spelling with a c now,

> sometimes I find whole groups far too much for me, especially some

> groups of women. Same thing can be with a particular family, too up

> front, touchy feelie but those words are not quite right. Keeping a

> distance is self preservation.

>

>

>

> As one of the other ladies here said, those of us who are

> > married to an Aspie lead a life of loneliness.

>

> Yes, see Maxine Aston etc. Emotional deprivation == lack of non

verbal etc.

>

> >

> > I like the questions and perspectives near the end of your post. I

> > think there is some truth in each of them.

>

> You can go and look at all the site now.

>

> >

> > Verleen

> >

>

> Apologies folks about my email AV putting a tag line. For some

reason it

> is ignoring instructions not to! I downgrade versions, sigh.

>

[Guest guest]

Tim, just a quick note to add some more descriptive things about

involving socializing. He has a married sister, niece and

nephew, cousins, aunts and uncles living nearby. He hasn't talked to

them in decades. I have not met them. He doesn't even see his own

family, except for his father who passed away a number of years ago.

If he is in any group, such as when he takes me to a club meeting

where most of the membership is men, he talks to no one and keeps

entirely to himself. He usually leaves the area and takes a walk

somewhere. Don't you think, in regards to my husband, that the term

'antisocial' just might fit? Verleen

> There is the possibility that there is a context. Perhaps the people

you

> have around in your circles are ones where he is uncomfortable.

> Do you for example see him when he is completely out of your sight with

> others? (food for thought)

>

> Please don't take offence at that, darn it, spelling with a c now,

> sometimes I find whole groups far too much for me, especially some

> groups of women. Same thing can be with a particular family, too up

> front, touchy feelie but those words are not quite right. Keeping a

> distance is self preservation.

>

>

> As one of the other ladies here said, those of us who are

> > married to an Aspie lead a life of loneliness.

>

> Yes, see Maxine Aston etc. Emotional deprivation == lack of non

verbal etc.

>

> >

> > I like the questions and perspectives near the end of your post. I

> > think there is some truth in each of them.

>

> You can go and look at all the site now.

>

> >

> > Verleen

> >

>

> Apologies folks about my email AV putting a tag line. For some

reason it

> is ignoring instructions not to! I downgrade versions, sigh.

>

[Guest guest]

Verleen wrote:

> Hi Tim. You are right, I can see your point (with the underwear

> example....lol). The word 'antisocial' is not nice, but what would

> you call it? He does not want any human being on the acres of our

> property. He gets very anxious just knowing they are outside

> somewhere while he is in the house. I don't ask him to come out and

> meet them even. If they come into the house, his anxiety hits 10 on

> a scale of one to ten.

I suspect that is not AS but something co-morbid with AS.

He has no friends and never had any. He

> does not talk to people at work. I have visited him at work and they

> have commented on what a loner he is. He doesn't want to talk to

> anyone, period, except me and my daughter. He hates the telephone

> because there is conversation with a person involved. He would never

> participate in a forum like this because he doesn't like even talking

> to people in cyber space. As for him not feeling comfortable with my

> friends and family, it really hasn't been put to test because they

> don't come here.

Definitely excessive. To a degree I can understand it, hmm... thinking.

A hallmark of AS is wanting some contact and I assume he isn't LFA or

HFA where the Autism is often more severe from that point of view.

Consider these but please not seriously, just be aware.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe02.html

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe03.html

Since he wants relations with you and your daughter neither make sense,

but neither can be co-morbid with AS.

I think that needs professional advice.

> wheelchair, I hired a housekeeper who quit because he was screaming,

> throwing things and slamming doors because she was there.

Ouch.

His father

> never allowed any one on his property either during his 70+ years

> after he married.

You mentioned walking in the wilderness. I think there can be extreme

social distance in people who have always known remote society.

His father is significant.

Maybe the whole thing is so instilled in him from being a small child it

is how he is. I've read of that kind of thing, an adult that will not

tolerate strangers on land to a bizarre extent.

> As for talking with me, it is brief, filled with repetitive sentences,

> and centered around his world about his pets, his work, his problems,

> his electronics, etc. If I try to talk about something about me, he

> walks away mid sentence, usually. If I tell him I'm very sick and

> might have the flu, he doesn't sympathize, but goes on about how he's

> feeling and when he had the flu four years ago.

>

> So Tim, what would you call this behavior in ?

Dysfunctional. Severely. I shouldn't say it, I doubt ever fully curable.

If not

> antisocial, then what? I'm not trying to get into a word-game

> between an NT and an AS. I am trying to understand and possibly

> change some behaviors that sometimes make it difficult to continue to

> cohabit. Verleen

I don't play games like that, it is a serious matter. What you describe

is so far away from what I know of AS that antisocial is fair comment.

You need professional help.

[Guest guest]

Verleen wrote:

> Tim, just a quick note to add some more descriptive things about

> involving socializing. He has a married sister, niece and

> nephew, cousins, aunts and uncles living nearby. He hasn't talked to

> them in decades. I have not met them. He doesn't even see his own

> family, except for his father who passed away a number of years ago.

I don't.

I've discussed this and it was pointed out that there is a difference

between people who are minutes away and hours.

When I was young I would visit occasionally but that fell away. There is

nothing to discuss, nothing in common but apart from my brother there

isn't a problem as such. (my brother doesn't want contact for reasons

which are unclear)

Visiting relatives seems to be all about duty, not a wish to do so.

Having no sense of family seems to be common in autism. Strangers are

just as important. To be honest the family thing puzzles me.

> If he is in any group, such as when he takes me to a club meeting

> where most of the membership is men, he talks to no one and keeps

> entirely to himself. He usually leaves the area and takes a walk

> somewhere.

Grin. If my wife wanted to go the the cinema that is what I would want

to do. I don't mind taking her at all.

Maybe it's as much about tolerating things without showing what is

really going on, not so easy.

So you go to visit a relative.

To do what? Births, marriages, deaths, funerals.

Seems to me there is nonsense talk. I guess a lot of non verbal. It

holds no interest.

Don't you think, in regards to my husband, that the term

> 'antisocial' just might fit? Verleen

Must fit me too.

The situation if you see people daily is I suspect different, more

likely to he shared things.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Tim. This antisocial aspect of my husband's is the most

significant behavioral problem he has. I looked at those links you

provided (thank you again) and right now I'm not inclined to think he

fits it. You might be right about his father's severe antisocial

living conditions influencing my husband's social distance. They

have other traits in common too. My husband did seek social contact.

That's how he met me. He feels I am enough. The really strange

thing is that when his father met me (the meeting was forced by my

husband), he liked me and wanted Rich to bring me to visit every time.

It didn't hurt that I brought home-baked bread and dinners for

him.....lol. And yet, his father,until the day he died, never allowed

his daughter's husband on his property.

As for his getting professional help, that will never happen. He

won't go. He has high blood pressure now and refuses to get it

treated. I went to a psychologist once to help me with stress. One

of my stressors was the condition of my home after I became disabled.

I took digital pictures and brought the camera to a visit. When I

showed the dr the pictures, his wide-eyed look said it all. Yes,

we're talking about 'Health Dept condemnation'. At the time, we had

far many more animals (his pets) living in the home. So the dr

wanted me to bring to visits too with the hopes of eventually

seeing him alone. To 'help' me, came once. The doctor

discussed the home conditions and the number of animals that are

contributing to it with Rich, among other less threatening things.

Mostly he was trying to get Rich to do the talking but that didn't

work, not surprisingly. Rich agreed with what he was saying and said

he would downsize some of his pets. When he left, he told me he

wasn't changing anything before we even reached the car. He refused

to go back or see anyone else. So I am stuck with having to work with

him on this by myself. I have been able to get him to downsize some

of the animals. He is doing better with the cleanliness of the home.

I got him to get rid of some old books, clothes and garden pots. A

little at a time. He resents all these things at first. But seems

to come to appreciate them later on.

I invited an indoor gardening friend over one day not long ago to

visit and lunch with me. I informed Rich that she was coming. I

also let him know what I expected from him. He didn't have to really

talk to her, except to say 'hello' and 'nice to meet you'. I told him

that I would get angry if he slammed anything or behaved like he was

unhappy in any way. He was able to control himself. What really

scares me is what will happen when my disability (progressive

paralysis) progresses so that I am unable to leave the home or bed. I

picture living in squalor, not eating right and being completely

isolated.

Verleen

> > Hi Tim. You are right, I can see your point (with the underwear

> > example....lol). The word 'antisocial' is not nice, but what would

> > you call it? He does not want any human being on the acres of our

> > property. He gets very anxious just knowing they are outside

> > somewhere while he is in the house. I don't ask him to come out and

> > meet them even. If they come into the house, his anxiety hits 10 on

> > a scale of one to ten.

>

> I suspect that is not AS but something co-morbid with AS.

>

> He has no friends and never had any. He

> > does not talk to people at work. I have visited him at work and they

> > have commented on what a loner he is. He doesn't want to talk to

> > anyone, period, except me and my daughter. He hates the telephone

> > because there is conversation with a person involved. He would never

> > participate in a forum like this because he doesn't like even talking

> > to people in cyber space. As for him not feeling comfortable with my

> > friends and family, it really hasn't been put to test because they

> > don't come here.

>

> Definitely excessive. To a degree I can understand it, hmm... thinking.

> A hallmark of AS is wanting some contact and I assume he isn't LFA or

> HFA where the Autism is often more severe from that point of view.

>

> Consider these but please not seriously, just be aware.

> http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe02.html

> http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe03.html

>

> Since he wants relations with you and your daughter neither make sense,

> but neither can be co-morbid with AS.

>

> I think that needs professional advice.

>

> > wheelchair, I hired a housekeeper who quit because he was screaming,

> > throwing things and slamming doors because she was there.

>

> Ouch.

>

> His father

> > never allowed any one on his property either during his 70+ years

> > after he married.

>

> You mentioned walking in the wilderness. I think there can be extreme

> social distance in people who have always known remote society.

>

> His father is significant.

>

> Maybe the whole thing is so instilled in him from being a small

child it

> is how he is. I've read of that kind of thing, an adult that will not

> tolerate strangers on land to a bizarre extent.

>

> > As for talking with me, it is brief, filled with repetitive sentences,

> > and centered around his world about his pets, his work, his problems,

> > his electronics, etc. If I try to talk about something about me, he

> > walks away mid sentence, usually. If I tell him I'm very sick and

> > might have the flu, he doesn't sympathize, but goes on about how he's

> > feeling and when he had the flu four years ago.

> >

> > So Tim, what would you call this behavior in ?

>

> Dysfunctional. Severely. I shouldn't say it, I doubt ever fully curable.

>

>

> If not

> > antisocial, then what? I'm not trying to get into a word-game

> > between an NT and an AS. I am trying to understand and possibly

> > change some behaviors that sometimes make it difficult to continue to

> > cohabit. Verleen

>

> I don't play games like that, it is a serious matter. What you describe

> is so far away from what I know of AS that antisocial is fair comment.

>

> You need professional help.

>

[Guest guest]

Gosh Tim. This is where NTs and ASs (oops, a freudian slip....lol),

have a major difference. Family is everything to me. I strongly

dislike when a family member just shows up for funerals. To me, why

bother? I think on-going family contacts and rituals enrich my

life. My husband hates Christmas and other holidays. To the extent

that he doesn't want a wreath on the door or hear Christmas music.

Christmas was a treasured part of my life. I could almost leave him

because of Christmas alone.....lol. Christmas is family time,

sharing, loving and keeping traditions. He likes the gifts he gets

though.......grin. Verleen

> > Tim, just a quick note to add some more descriptive things about

> > involving socializing. He has a married sister, niece and

> > nephew, cousins, aunts and uncles living nearby. He hasn't talked to

> > them in decades. I have not met them. He doesn't even see his own

> > family, except for his father who passed away a number of years ago.

>

> I don't.

>

> I've discussed this and it was pointed out that there is a difference

> between people who are minutes away and hours.

>

> When I was young I would visit occasionally but that fell away.

There is

> nothing to discuss, nothing in common but apart from my brother there

> isn't a problem as such. (my brother doesn't want contact for reasons

> which are unclear)

>

> Visiting relatives seems to be all about duty, not a wish to do so.

>

> Having no sense of family seems to be common in autism. Strangers are

> just as important. To be honest the family thing puzzles me.

>

> > If he is in any group, such as when he takes me to a club meeting

> > where most of the membership is men, he talks to no one and keeps

> > entirely to himself. He usually leaves the area and takes a walk

> > somewhere.

>

> Grin. If my wife wanted to go the the cinema that is what I would want

> to do. I don't mind taking her at all.

>

> Maybe it's as much about tolerating things without showing what is

> really going on, not so easy.

>

> So you go to visit a relative.

> To do what? Births, marriages, deaths, funerals.

>

> Seems to me there is nonsense talk. I guess a lot of non verbal. It

> holds no interest.

>

> Don't you think, in regards to my husband, that the term

> > 'antisocial' just might fit? Verleen

>

> Must fit me too.

> The situation if you see people daily is I suspect different, more

> likely to he shared things.

>

[Guest guest]

How about non-social...instead of anti-social which sounds more negative to me.  I think the behavior we are talking about here is more passive than aggressive.  ??? Janet ZEE wanting to give AS the benefit of the doubt and also having been non - social myself from time to time. Verleen wrote:> Tim, just a quick note to add some more descriptive things about> involving socializing. He has a married sister, niece and> nephew, cousins, aunts and uncles living nearby. He hasn't talked to> them in decades. I have not met them. He doesn't even see his own> family, except for his father who passed away a number of years ago. I don't.I've discussed this and it was pointed out that there is a difference between people who are minutes away and hours.When I was young I would visit occasionally but that fell away. There is nothing to discuss, nothing in common but apart from my brother there isn't a problem as such. (my brother doesn't want contact for reasons which are unclear)Visiting relatives seems to be all about duty, not a wish to do so.Having no sense of family seems to be common in autism. Strangers are just as important. To be honest the family thing puzzles me.> If he is in any group, such as when he takes me to a club meeting> where most of the membership is men, he talks to no one and keeps> entirely to himself. He usually leaves the area and takes a walk> somewhere.Grin. If my wife wanted to go the the cinema that is what I would want to do. I don't mind taking her at all.Maybe it's as much about tolerating things without showing what is really going on, not so easy.So you go to visit a relative.To do what? Births, marriages, deaths, funerals.Seems to me there is nonsense talk. I guess a lot of non verbal. It holds no interest.Don't you think, in regards to my husband, that the term> 'antisocial' just might fit? VerleenMust fit me too.The situation if you see people daily is I suspect different, more likely to he shared things.

[Guest guest]

I think all of us have been non-social. I think that would also be

classified as going to sleep LOL

> Janet ZEE wanting to give AS the benefit of the doubt and also

having

> been non - social myself from time to time.

[Guest guest]

I agree, My doctor who diagnosed me explained the difference. He said anti-social is when you are against people, going out of your way to harm them, aggressive. While non social is just liking to be by yourself. Just liking to be alone is not anti social.

Jennie AS

Re: Re: Reminder from as-if

How about non-social...instead of anti-social which sounds more negative to me. I think the behavior we are talking about here is more passive than aggressive. ???

Janet ZEE wanting to give AS the benefit of the doubt and also having been non - social myself from time to time.

Verleen wrote:> Tim, just a quick note to add some more descriptive things about> involving socializing. He has a married sister, niece and> nephew, cousins, aunts and uncles living nearby. He hasn't talked to> them in decades. I have not met them. He doesn't even see his own> family, except for his father who passed away a number of years ago. I don't.I've discussed this and it was pointed out that there is a difference between people who are minutes away and hours.When I was young I would visit occasionally but that fell away. There is nothing to discuss, nothing in common but apart from my brother there isn't a problem as such. (my brother doesn't want contact for reasons which are unclear)Visiting relatives seems to be all about duty, not a wish to do so.Having no sense of family seems to be common in autism. Strangers are just as important. To be honest the family thing puzzles me.> If he is in any group, such as when he takes me to a club meeting> where most of the membership is men, he talks to no one and keeps> entirely to himself. He usually leaves the area and takes a walk> somewhere.Grin. If my wife wanted to go the the cinema that is what I would want to do. I don't mind taking her at all.Maybe it's as much about tolerating things without showing what is really going on, not so easy.So you go to visit a relative.To do what? Births, marriages, deaths, funerals.Seems to me there is nonsense talk. I guess a lot of non verbal. It holds no interest.Don't you think, in regards to my husband, that the term> 'antisocial' just might fit? VerleenMust fit me too.The situation if you see people daily is I suspect different, more likely to he shared things.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1232 - Release Date: 1/18/2008 7:32 PM

[Guest guest]

Jennie Unknown wrote:

> I agree, My doctor who diagnosed me explained the difference. He said

anti-social is when you are against people, going out of your way to harm them,

aggressive. While non social is just liking to be by yourself. Just liking to be

alone is not anti social.

>

> Jennie AS

That seems a good solution.

Rather more is under the surface. We are dealing here with cloaked

aggression and indirect language where the meaning is not in the words.

I suspect the problem is much greater here in the UK than in the US.

Over here we seem to be strongly passive aggressive. Intolerance is

widespread.

A great deal is made here about ASBO (Anti Social Behaviour Order),

which I mock... an official order to be anti social. For goodness sake,

what is " social " ? There is no definition, not talked about and certainly

does not mean what it says.

It is correct that AS tend to be the opposite of social and correct that

anti indicates the opposite of but together there are unfortunately

political meaning. No-one gets upset about talk of anti-cyclones.

[Guest guest]

Tim Channon wrote:

> Jennie Unknown wrote:

[ snip ]

> political meaning. No-one gets upset about talk of anti-cyclones.

That would depend on which hemisphere (N or S) you live in??

- Bill, 75, AS; ...curmudgeon

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I thought anti-social meant 'opposite of social' or 'against

sociability'. I never thought of it in terms of aggression and

meaning harm to other people. I thought the terms, 'sociopathic and

psychopathic', dealt with that more, and antisocial is just one of the

many aspects of those psyches, as well as a host of other behaviors

having nothing to do with AS. Wow, so much is read into a simple

word. However, I agree that there may be a political meaning

attached to the label which is unfortunate. Nonetheless, I think

nonsocial is a better term to use here. Hopefully I will remember to

use it all the time here.....grin.

Verleen in the US where antisocial doesn't mean aggressive, harmful

behavior

> > I agree, My doctor who diagnosed me explained the difference. He

said anti-social is when you are against people, going out of your way

to harm them, aggressive. While non social is just liking to be by

yourself. Just liking to be alone is not anti social.

> >

> > Jennie AS

>

> That seems a good solution.

>

> Rather more is under the surface. We are dealing here with cloaked

> aggression and indirect language where the meaning is not in the words.

>

> I suspect the problem is much greater here in the UK than in the US.

> Over here we seem to be strongly passive aggressive. Intolerance is

> widespread.

>

> A great deal is made here about ASBO (Anti Social Behaviour Order),

> which I mock... an official order to be anti social. For goodness sake,

> what is " social " ? There is no definition, not talked about and

certainly

> does not mean what it says.

>

> It is correct that AS tend to be the opposite of social and correct

that

> anti indicates the opposite of but together there are unfortunately

> political meaning. No-one gets upset about talk of anti-cyclones.

>

[Guest guest]

Well I don't know that AS tends to be the opposite of social. From what all I have seen many AS folk are very social, if you take social to mean wanting to be around others. I have days in which I really like being around people. But then as you say..... there isn't any real definition of social.

I am familiar with passive aggressive also. It seems like it is often a chosen way of dealing with life when a person perceives themselves (or is taught to perceive themselves) as helpless or when a person truly is helpless either in the face of society, family, government, etc . So passive aggressive people might be anti-social or they might not depending on how & why their aggression pops up.

On the other hand I was reading in a dictionary and while the first several definitions of antisocial are as my doctor said, about a person bent on harming others the last definition was about just not wanting to be around people much. So I guess it probably depends on what part of the world you live in and what the context was it was spoken it.

Pretty crazy all things considered. You'd think with all the dictionaries and most folks being able to read and the world wide connections we could all agree on one definition per word and then just have the history of the words roots. Also you'd think we could agree on one spelling. It sure would simplify things and prevent a lot of misunderstandings. LOL Not gonna happen anytime in the next century.

Jennie AS

Re: Re: Reminder from as-if

Jennie Unknown wrote:> I agree, My doctor who diagnosed me explained the difference. He said anti-social is when you are against people, going out of your way to harm them, aggressive. While non social is just liking to be by yourself. Just liking to be alone is not anti social. > > Jennie ASThat seems a good solution.Rather more is under the surface. We are dealing here with cloaked aggression and indirect language where the meaning is not in the words.I suspect the problem is much greater here in the UK than in the US. Over here we seem to be strongly passive aggressive. Intolerance is widespread.A great deal is made here about ASBO (Anti Social Behaviour Order), which I mock... an official order to be anti social. For goodness sake, what is "social"? There is no definition, not talked about and certainly does not mean what it says.It is correct that AS tend to be the opposite of social and correct that anti indicates the opposite of but together there are unfortunately political meaning. No-one gets upset about talk of anti-cyclones.

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[Guest guest]

I see AS as less co-dependant that NT... they don't need other's constant approval and validation for daily living. jkzJennie Unknown wrote:> I agree, My doctor who diagnosed me explained the difference. He said anti-social is when you are against people, going out of your way to harm them, aggressive. While non social is just liking to be by yourself. Just liking to be alone is not anti social. > > Jennie ASThat seems a good solution.Rather more is under the surface. We are dealing here with cloaked aggression and indirect language where the meaning is not in the words.I suspect the problem is much greater here in the UK than in the US. Over here we seem to be strongly passive aggressive. Intolerance is widespread.A great deal is made here about ASBO (Anti Social Behaviour Order), which I mock... an official order to be anti social. For goodness sake, what is "social"? There is no definition, not talked about and certainly does not mean what it says.It is correct that AS tend to be the opposite of social and correct that anti indicates the opposite of but together there are unfortunately political meaning. No-one gets upset about talk of anti-cyclones.

[Guest guest]

At 03:23 PM 1/22/2008, you wrote:

>I see AS as less co-dependant that NT... they don't need other's

>constant approval and validation for daily living. jkz

Hi Janet,

This is very interesting. A real " light bulb " moment for me! It may

well be that many AS - maybe even me - are giving off mixed signals

that we neither want, nor require, constant approval and validation -

while the opposite is quite true!

I think that we all - AS and NT - start out having the same needs for

approval and validation as children. AS children would rather that

adults not be overly *effusive* about our accomplishments, but we DO

want to be acknowledged for a job well done. I certainly need

approval and validation.

A family gives unconditional love and validation (well, normally,

anyway) but as Aspies move towards adulthood and independence, the

validation of peers becomes the true measure of their station in life.

I think the genesis of the " problem " is in social, school and work

situations. I suspect that in these settings, an Aspie's " different "

behavior results in them being not so much thought of as part of the

team, but tolerated because they are necessary. But we aren't totally

without a clue and we are quite painfully cognizant that for the most

part, we are being treated in a dismissive manner.

So, I think that to preserve their dignity, Aspies may give the

*appearance* of not requiring approval, and acting in an aloof

manner. Alas, this then reinforces whatever misconceptions co-workers

may have about the emotional needs of an Aspie.

I am working on a longer post that coincidentally does touch on this

subject which I'll post later.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

> At 03:23 PM 1/22/2008, you wrote:

>> I see AS as less co-dependant that NT... they don't need other's

>> constant approval and validation for daily living. jkz

>

> Hi Janet,

> This is very interesting. A real " light bulb " moment for me! It may

> well be that many AS - maybe even me - are giving off mixed signals

> that we neither want, nor require, constant approval and validation -

> while the opposite is quite true!

What an interesting idea. I was going to post something rather

different, in a different direction yet at the same to matching, you've

taken it further.

AS have this large sense of right and wrong.

Something like the notion of a prize for everyone is the stuff of

squirming, not genuine, so it is not that we want.

I know that personally I would walk way rather than taken part in any

prize thing, perhaps where there is a sharp AS/NT difference. Achieving

something good might be the point, the fuss about it is utterly not wanted.

One of the things that has come to mind is this stuff can be useful

because it is feedback. There is no other way of knowing if you are

doing ok rather than being lied to that you are doing ok. This is

horribly common in work. We cannot read the non verbal etc.

Finally I note something from a psychological stereotyping, we can't be

bothered making a good job of something, just going far enough to know

the we could if we wanted. We then lose interest.

[Guest guest]

At 05:10 PM 1/22/2008, Tim wrote:

<snip>

>AS have this large sense of right and wrong.

>

>Something like the notion of a prize for everyone is the stuff of

>squirming, not genuine, so it is not that we want.

I agree whole-heatedly, there, Tim. Some psychologists are also

re-thinking this, and the damage it does to today's children.

Children also know when something is earned and when it is false. It

cheapens the prize when everyone gets one. Also gives people a sense

of entitlement, whether or not they have worked for it. Aspies are

just the first to notice when the " award' is contrived. Bet you don't

stay up late to watch the Academy Awards - or whatever the equivalent

self-congratulatory celluloid celebrity prize is that they dole out

over there in the UK, do you? Me neither. <smile!>

But in the same vein I am thinking about another root of AS/NT

differences and misunderstanding, that surfaces early in our lives.

As children, we Aspies didn't want a fuss made over us for merely

doing something that we felt anyone could do (or so we thought! maybe

only AS could do it - eg. do well in a math test) and our distaste

for the process may have not been easy to conceal. On the other hand,

there are things that were very *difficult* for us, and we would have

really appreciated some recognition for complying with something that

was distasteful or very uncomfortable to us (eg. singing a song,

wearing a very uncomfortable outfit, going to a public venue we

didn't want to be at). But then, the adults in our lives were

thinking, perhaps even saying directly to us, " WHY should I reward

you for doing something you SHOULD be doing in the first place! " And

then we Aspie kids are just as confused as ever.....

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen, I will compliment you on writing so many nice posts to this list, that may have taken you hours to write. I have related experiences to this one. As a child, I knew I was much stronger in mathematics than anyone else I knew, older or younger or in my age group-- until I hit fourth grade, and one of the eighth graders seemed to be at about the same place I was, and he was recognized as "really smart". On reflection, at the time I thought he was a really cool playmate, and now, I believe he may be AS---wish I had not lost track of him. On the other hand, basic things like eventually stylizing my handwriting so that it looked elegant took me years and years. In fifth and sixth grade, I consistently got Cs in it, while all my female classmates got As and Bs. I can sing easily enough-- but introducing people to each other at social functions is something I will often pass on, since I have way too much

difficulty with faces. Nobody ever complimented me on the tremendous efforts I have put in over the years to keep track of faces cognitively, since I do not store very many faces as an NT does. If I ever get to be a CEO of a company, or even a politician, I will hire a Nomenclator, as the early Romans had- a person who can whisper the name of anyone I meet to me- I remember names just fine. Helen Foisy wrote: At 05:10 PM 1/22/2008, Tim wrote:<snip>>But in the same vein I am

thinking about another root of AS/NT differences and misunderstanding, that surfaces early in our lives. As children, we Aspies didn't want a fuss made over us for merely doing something that we felt anyone could do (or so we thought! maybe only AS could do it - eg. do well in a math test) and our distaste for the process may have not been easy to conceal. On the other hand, there are things that were very *difficult* for us, and we would have really appreciated some recognition for complying with something that was distasteful or very uncomfortable to us (eg. singing a song, wearing a very uncomfortable outfit, going to a public venue we didn't want to be at). But then, the adults in our lives were thinking, perhaps even saying directly to us, "WHY should I reward you for doing something you SHOULD be doing in the first place!" And then we Aspie kids are just as confused as ever.....-

Helen

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[Guest guest]

At 06:18 PM 1/24/2008, Princess wrote:

<snip>

> If I ever get to be a CEO of a company, or even a politician, I

> will hire a Nomenclator, as the early Romans had- a person who can

> whisper the name of anyone I meet to me- I remember names just fine.

Hi ,

Your posts always leave me with a warm feeling, and make me smile! I

would like one of those Nomenclators too, as well as someone who

could kick me under the table regularly when I'm about to commit

another verbal blunder again, LOL.

- Helen