Re: empathising with their wives

[Guest guest]

interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?"  It is very lonely.  I keep wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".We are like ships passing in the night.  He does his thing (most of his waking hours are spent in his shop) and I try to keep busy.  the kids are gone.  for him, nothing has changed. for me , everything has.   He seems not to be able to express any interest in me or what I do.  Notice I don't say that he is not interested in my life.   I give him the benefit of the doubt.. it just feels like he is not interested.  He likes me to sleep in the bed and have regular infrequent sex.  And I clean the house, cook the food and maintain the social schedule... my friends, not his although he feels they are his friends and they feel he is theirs.  His regular outings and scheduled activities do not include me.  We watch TV together , he ususally reads a book at the same time.   We do not enjoy the same books.  He is a good person, not violent or weird, very even keeled.  Just not present for me.   One might ask why I stay... I say, I have no where else to go and it seems too dauting to start over at my age.  We live in a rural remote area so there is not a lot to do without driving at least an hour. Been there, done that. I don't know what I am rambling on about. Just documenting and sorting my thoughts.   Janet ZEE sharing with you , no advice expected   What Jennie described when she wrote about her spouse should be noted carefully in relation to what Maxine Aston said about men. Paraphrasing, all men can behave poorly but NT men have a choice about empathising with their wives, AS men do not, they cannot. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I would caution folks to take this phrase in the spirit and context it was meant.  NO two are alike and this is a blanket statement against an entire group of people. For example.  Over a year ago I was approached privately from an NS spouse that was frantic.  Her husband had been professionally dx. by a prominent professional in her state.  They were actually seeing two professionals for therapy and help.  Both very educated people.  He was very underemployed but happy.  Her story was very similar to many that you read here, but he was very passive.  Not a violent bone in his body.  Just considered strange by her family and friends who were telling her, there is something wrong, get rid of him.  What pushed her over the edge??  Something that one of these professionals said in front of her and her spouse.  I wish you had access to our archives' as there was a lively discussion about this.  The professional was advising her to end this relationship immediately as there is nothing in it for her.  Than he proceeds to tell her, "the Government has used these people for years.  They make GREAT assassins, as they can wipe out a family in minutes without batting an eye as they are emotionally dead."  Her husband showed NO emotion almost like he was not there or could not hear.  The professional said, "see, there is nothing there." Now she is really scared and does not know where to turn.  I posted her story on ASPIRES and was amazed at how many "with" AS related to being emotionally dead and shared their stories.  It does not mean that ALL folks with AS are like this, just that we had some with AS on the board at that time that could relate and shared their stories.  I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that impair your ability to form and maintain relationships???????  Would this impair your ability to be a good parent????  Are these skills that you need to have a healthy relationship and parent? Your Comments? 

[Guest guest]

I have had these questions a zillion times in my marriage.

My husband *seems* gentle (read passive and dependent) and caring, but

then there was the pregnancy when he refused to deal with his anxiety

and go on job interviews, so my best friend had to talk me into getting

government food stamps, because I was anemic.

Or the years of not knowing if the electric and heat would be turned off

because he *forgot* to pay the bill, or didn't have a job, so he assumed

I would take care of procuring the funds to pay the bill.

What's scary is to realize that the ability to begin showing empathy is

a skill that is developing by age 2-3 years old in toddlers. An 18 month

old will bite or hit, and show no remorse, but by 2-3 years the little

person will be able to recognize that their actions hurt someone else

(at least on a physical level). I often think of my husband's behavior

as that of a little child.

Thinking of him in this way does *not* promote positive feelings about

our relationship as mature adults. It often makes me feel like I am just

a mother to him, and he is just another one of my kids (this is

decidedly *not* sexy at all!).

As far as parenting--I still catch him forgetting to feed our youngest

child lunch if I am gone and he is in charge. He simply seems to lack

the awareness that someone else might be hungry and need food.

Does one need these skills to have a healthy relationship and be a

parent. Absolutely! I am seriously worried about my health because of

the neglect I have tried to absorb, and worried about our kids who have

been ignored.

I am asking the question in this way--is it time to let him " off the

hook " (out of our marriage) and let myself stop feeling responsible (and

guilt-ridden) for him by seperating permanently?

Sharon- having a rough week, the " wolf is at the door " , financially

speaking

[snip for brevity]

> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally

dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that impair your ability to

form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your ability to

be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to have a healthy

relationship and parent?

>

> Your Comments?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

"I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that impair your ability to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to have a healthy relationship and parent? Your Comments?"I think the reason arguments and struggles surfaced was because it became clear over time that my husband was emotionally dead and could not feel remorse or empathy. It took quite some time for these things to become so predictable and patterned that outside help was sought. (Well it also took years for him to even agree to see someone). The diagnosis, for me, only gave what I already knew: a name.Being emotionally dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy absolutely impaired his ability to maintain the relationship. It also impaired his ability to be a good parent in terms of being "accessible" to our daughter. I cannot say he was a "bad" parent in the sense he was ever abusive, but he was certainly emotionally neglectful of her. My sense is that "good parenting" is a pretty balanced mix of dictator, confidant, teacher, therapist, doctor, friend and a bunch of other things.Interesting question about whether being emotionally alive, able to feel remorse and empathy are necessary skills to have a relationship and be a parent.I'm thinking the metaphorical couches of the psychiatric community are filled with NT's who were denied love, emotion and empathy by their NT parents and are essentially searching for the emotion and love they didn't get. Or, they are searching for the solutions to the dysfunctional love and manipulative emotion they did get. So to me, this isn't an AS thing entirely, but being emotionally dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy is absolutely not a healthy relationship component, in my view.In the case of AS, the neurological situation makes those things difficult, if not impossible to access. In the case of NT's there is a fair amount of psychological damage out there because of the absence or dysfunctional presence of those things as well.The contents of your post in general were weird for me. On the one hand it spoke about a therapists view that people who were emotionally dead with no ability to access remorse would be ideal assassins. Then you went on to ask if those same people had the ability to maintain relationships and be good parents.It was a mind bender for me. I thought of The Soprano's. They killed people routinely, coldly, calloused and without remorse. Then they went home and hugged their wife and kids. Perhaps that's where you were going with your question? I'd still have the same opinion I stated above. It's sort of like how people think of dogs. They may appear to be the most loving and cuddling animal in the world, but they are still dogs and could snap and bite at any moment. (Not comparing AS or NT to dogs). I'm just thinking on how it would be to know your husband is a cold blooded killer as he kisses your neck while you're cooking his dinner at the stove. I don't want THAT kind of emotional availability either! LOL:::::::shudder::::::::Regards,Anita 55 NT

[Guest guest]

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is , " Can I live with

> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy? " It is very lonely. I keep

> wishing it was different and wondering, " Is it me? " .

[ snip ]

Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The

answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.

How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we

have different " ways of being " .

Which is my lead-in to 's question...

>

>> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally

>> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability

>> to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your

>> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to

>> have a healthy relationship and parent?

>>

>> Your Comments?

....about " emotionally dead " , and both your questions about " remorse and

empathy " .

Everybody " on the spectrum " *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally

dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.

It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not

*display* the same as do you.

And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to

you, but *of course* to us as well.

That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic " meltdowns', the

long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means " emotionless,

no remorse, no empathy " . But it's a false judgment.

The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ( " no two

alike " ), is *different* from yours. Our premises about " the world " are

different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we

display reactions to it differently.

The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't

speak English, right?

No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.

But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the

exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We

should behave like you do, right?

No, wrong. We " speak " a different " emotional " language.

We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret

over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all

that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.

For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath

the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.

The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.

It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a

slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.

The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to

note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and

Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.

- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I love dogs! I've had West Highland Terriers all my life. My 13 year

old Westie is under the desk as I type! My comment was more to how

people in general think of dogs, that caution should be demonstrated

because dogs don't have cognitive ability, yada yada yada.

Regards,

Anita

> >

> > " I think one of the questions that came up was if you are

> > emotionally dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that impair

> > your ability to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this

> > impair your ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that

> > you need to have a healthy relationship and parent? Your Comments? "

> >

> >

> > I think the reason arguments and struggles surfaced was because it

> > became clear over time that my husband was emotionally dead and

> > could not feel remorse or empathy. It took quite some time for

> > these things to become so predictable and patterned that outside

> > help was sought. (Well it also took years for him to even agree to

> > see someone). The diagnosis, for me, only gave what I already

> > knew: a name.

> >

> > Being emotionally dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy

> > absolutely impaired his ability to maintain the relationship. It

> > also impaired his ability to be a good parent in terms of being

> > " accessible " to our daughter. I cannot say he was a " bad " parent

> > in the sense he was ever abusive, but he was certainly emotionally

> > neglectful of her. My sense is that " good parenting " is a pretty

> > balanced mix of dictator, confidant, teacher, therapist, doctor,

> > friend and a bunch of other things.

> >

> > Interesting question about whether being emotionally alive, able to

> > feel remorse and empathy are necessary skills to have a

> > relationship and be a parent.

> >

> > I'm thinking the metaphorical couches of the psychiatric community

> > are filled with NT's who were denied love, emotion and empathy by

> > their NT parents and are essentially searching for the emotion and

> > love they didn't get. Or, they are searching for the solutions to

> > the dysfunctional love and manipulative emotion they did get.

> >

> > So to me, this isn't an AS thing entirely, but being emotionally

> > dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy is absolutely not a healthy

> > relationship component, in my view.

> >

> > In the case of AS, the neurological situation makes those things

> > difficult, if not impossible to access. In the case of NT's there

> > is a fair amount of psychological damage out there because of the

> > absence or dysfunctional presence of those things as well.

> >

> > The contents of your post in general were weird for me. On the

> > one hand it spoke about a therapists view that people who were

> > emotionally dead with no ability to access remorse would be ideal

> > assassins. Then you went on to ask if those same people had the

> > ability to maintain relationships and be good parents.

> >

> > It was a mind bender for me. I thought of The Soprano's. They

> > killed people routinely, coldly, calloused and without remorse.

> > Then they went home and hugged their wife and kids. Perhaps that's

> > where you were going with your question?

> >

> > I'd still have the same opinion I stated above. It's sort of like

> > how people think of dogs. They may appear to be the most loving

> > and cuddling animal in the world, but they are still dogs and could

> > snap and bite at any moment. (Not comparing AS or NT to dogs).

> > I'm just thinking on how it would be to know your husband is a cold

> > blooded killer as he kisses your neck while you're cooking his

> > dinner at the stove. I don't want THAT kind of emotional

> > availability either! LOL

> >

> > :::::::shudder::::::::

> >

> > Regards,

> > Anita 55 NT

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

sharon, having the wolf at the door is no fun.  It takes such tremendous energy to do all the parenting.  I hope your week to come is better.  It seems like it has been a crappy week for a lot of us. jkzI have had these questions a zillion times in my marriage.My husband *seems* gentle (read passive and dependent) and caring, butthen there was the pregnancy when he refused to deal with his anxietyand go on job interviews, so my best friend had to talk me into gettinggovernment food stamps, because I was anemic.Or the years of not knowing if the electric and heat would be turned offbecause he *forgot* to pay the bill, or didn't have a job, so he assumedI would take care of procuring the funds to pay the bill.What's scary is to realize that the ability to begin showing empathy isa skill that is developing by age 2-3 years old in toddlers. An 18 monthold will bite or hit, and show no remorse, but by 2-3 years the littleperson will be able to recognize that their actions hurt someone else(at least on a physical level). I often think of my husband's behavioras that of a little child.Thinking of him in this way does *not* promote positive feelings aboutour relationship as mature adults. It often makes me feel like I am justa mother to him, and he is just another one of my kids (this isdecidedly *not* sexy at all!).As far as parenting--I still catch him forgetting to feed our youngestchild lunch if I am gone and he is in charge. He simply seems to lackthe awareness that someone else might be hungry and need food.Does one need these skills to have a healthy relationship and be aparent. Absolutely! I am seriously worried about my health because ofthe neglect I have tried to absorb, and worried about our kids who havebeen ignored.I am asking the question in this way--is it time to let him "off thehook" (out of our marriage) and let myself stop feeling responsible (andguilt-ridden) for him by seperating permanently?Sharon- having a rough week, the "wolf is at the door", financiallyspeaking[snip for brevity]> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionallydead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that impair your ability toform and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your ability tobe a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to have a healthyrelationship and parent?>> Your Comments?>> >

[Guest guest]

anita, in defense of dogs... only some dogs are unpredictable.  Others(most I beleive)would never bite or snap even when provoked.  I speak from many years of training dogs and their handlers.  I have had dogs that were 100% trustworthy and had to put one down that could not be trusted.    Janet ZEE doggy friend"I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that impair your ability to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to have a healthy relationship and parent?  Your Comments?"I think the reason arguments and struggles surfaced was because it became clear over time that my husband was emotionally dead and could not feel remorse or empathy.   It took quite some time for these things to become so predictable and patterned that outside help was sought.  (Well it also took years for him to even agree to see someone).  The diagnosis, for me, only gave what I already knew:  a name.Being emotionally dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy absolutely impaired his ability to maintain the relationship.  It also impaired his ability to be a good parent in terms of being "accessible" to our daughter.  I cannot say he was a "bad" parent in the sense he was ever abusive, but he was certainly emotionally neglectful of her.   My sense is that "good parenting" is a pretty balanced mix of dictator, confidant, teacher, therapist, doctor, friend and a bunch of other things.Interesting question about whether being emotionally alive, able to feel remorse and empathy are necessary skills to have a relationship and be a parent.I'm thinking the metaphorical couches of the psychiatric community are filled with NT's who were denied love, emotion and empathy by their NT parents and are essentially searching for the emotion and love they didn't get.  Or, they are searching for the solutions to the dysfunctional love and manipulative emotion they did get.  So to me, this isn't an AS thing entirely, but being emotionally dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy is absolutely not a healthy relationship component, in my view.In the case of AS, the neurological situation makes those things difficult, if not impossible to access.  In the case of NT's there is a fair amount of psychological damage out there because of the absence or dysfunctional presence of those things as well.The contents of your post in general were weird for me.   On the one hand it spoke about a therapists view that people who were emotionally dead with no ability to access remorse would be ideal assassins.  Then you went on to ask if  those same people had the ability to maintain relationships and be good parents.It was a mind bender for me.  I thought of The Soprano's.  They killed people routinely, coldly, calloused and without remorse.  Then they went home and hugged their wife and kids.  Perhaps that's where you were going with your question?  I'd still have the same opinion I stated above.   It's sort of like how people think of dogs.  They may appear to be the most loving and cuddling animal in the world, but they are still dogs and could snap and bite at any moment.  (Not comparing AS or NT to dogs).  I'm just thinking on how it would be to know your husband is a cold blooded killer as he kisses your neck while you're cooking his dinner at the stove.  I don't want THAT kind of emotional availability either!  LOL:::::::shudder::::::::Regards,Anita 55 NT

[Guest guest]

I like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie.  this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments... I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else.  How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas.  there is no manifestation of interest.  I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it.  sometimes I hate him.  and feel guilty. I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?"   Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him.  wow, I must really be something.  hahah janet ZEEJanet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> I like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with

> a zombie. this has been a bad week for me with some real

> disappointments... I could use some interest at least... not asking for

> pity here from him or anyone else. How about a conversation about my

> life and feelings, options, ideas. there is no manifestation of

> interest. I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would

> not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am

> bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it. sometimes I hate

> him. and feel guilty.

First off (displaying empathy here <mock grin>) I *am* sorry to hear you

live that way. I'm sorry to hear it from anybody. Nobody deserves to

be lonely among " friends " - read one's family - especially one's spouse.

There's nothing in the (modern, Western) marriage contract mandating you

defer to him in all things; ...demanding your subservience. It sounds

like he's getting far more from your marriage than you are. You need to

level the playing field.

The best advice I've heard here (and what my wife and I both have done)

is to develop an *independent* " social set " of your own. Develop a few

new Best Friends. (NOT ones as poorly off maritally as you.)

I know plenty of couples (all NT/NT, btw) who've learned to live this

way. Most like it: " ...smartest move I ever made... " , sometimes from

both of them.

Surprisingly, often it's enough that *one* make the leap. I imagine

that's because " pressure " is relieved on *both* partners.

Easy enough to talk about, sure. And/but sometimes not all that easy to

do. On the other hand, it costs relatively little to try. And it

doesn't foreclose *any* other options.

Hey! What choice do you have really, except " split the blanket " ? For

many, for many reasons, that's no choice at all.

> I can hear him now, " We are together , why must we chat? " Just being

> in physical proximity with me is enough for him. wow, I must really be

> something. hahah janet ZEE

>

>

>> Janet Zimmerman wrote:

>>> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is , " Can I live with

>>> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy? " It is very lonely. I keep

>>> wishing it was different and wondering, " Is it me? " .

>> [ snip ]

>>

>> Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The

>> answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.

>>

>> How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we

>> have different " ways of being " .

[ snip ]

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Bill,

I agree with what you say. The

overiding feeling I have when trying to communicate with my wife and daughters

is the anxiety in trying to make sure they understand me. They believe

I do not care for them but deep down I do. Articulating that and

trying not to seem phoney when I do is the problem I have. They are

very good at picking up dissonances between body language and what is being

said. After all they are NT.

BTW Bill I was trying real hard

to do stuff in trying to reconnect but the big thing is that my wife still

cannot see any improvement in getting involved. Small steps but I

admit I back slid and did not keep to my intentions. Still, head

down, bottom up as they say.

Greg

dx AS at 53

WD Loughman

Sent by: aspires-relationships

03/02/2008 05:38 PM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships

cc

Subject

Re: empathising

with their wives

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is , " Can

I live with

> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy? " It is very lonely. I

keep

> wishing it was different and wondering, " Is it me? " .

[ snip ]

Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The

answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.

How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we

have different " ways of being " .

Which is my lead-in to 's question...

>

>> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally

>> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your

ability

>> to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your

>> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need

to

>> have a healthy relationship and parent?

>>

>> Your Comments?

....about " emotionally dead " , and both your questions about " remorse

and

empathy " .

Everybody " on the spectrum " *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally

dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.

It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not

*display* the same as do you.

And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to

you, but *of course* to us as well.

That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic " meltdowns', the

long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means " emotionless,

no remorse, no empathy " . But it's a false judgment.

The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ( " no

two

alike " ), is *different* from yours. Our premises about " the world "

are

different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we

display reactions to it differently.

The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't

speak English, right?

No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.

But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the

exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We

should behave like you do, right?

No, wrong. We " speak " a different " emotional " language.

We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret

over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all

that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.

For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath

the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.

The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.

It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a

slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.

The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to

note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and

Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.

- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Westies are brilliant dogs. Ours

is crossed with a scottish terrier and she is absolutely gorgeous.

Greg dx AS at 53

" srabande "

Sent by: aspires-relationships

03/02/2008 05:52 PM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships

cc

Subject

Re: empathising

with their wives

I love dogs! I've had West Highland Terriers all my life.

My 13 year

old Westie is under the desk as I type! My comment was more to how

people in general think of dogs, that caution should be demonstrated

because dogs don't have cognitive ability, yada yada yada.

Regards,

Anita

> >

> > " I think one of the questions that came up was if you are

> > emotionally dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, can that

impair

> > your ability to form and maintain relationships??????? Would

this

> > impair your ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills

that

> > you need to have a healthy relationship and parent? Your Comments? "

> >

> >

> > I think the reason arguments and struggles surfaced was because

it

> > became clear over time that my husband was emotionally dead and

> > could not feel remorse or empathy. It took quite some time for

> > these things to become so predictable and patterned that outside

> > help was sought. (Well it also took years for him to even agree

to

> > see someone). The diagnosis, for me, only gave what I already

> > knew: a name.

> >

> > Being emotionally dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy

> > absolutely impaired his ability to maintain the relationship.

It

> > also impaired his ability to be a good parent in terms of being

> > " accessible " to our daughter. I cannot say he was a

" bad " parent

> > in the sense he was ever abusive, but he was certainly emotionally

> > neglectful of her. My sense is that " good parenting "

is a pretty

> > balanced mix of dictator, confidant, teacher, therapist, doctor,

> > friend and a bunch of other things.

> >

> > Interesting question about whether being emotionally alive, able

to

> > feel remorse and empathy are necessary skills to have a

> > relationship and be a parent.

> >

> > I'm thinking the metaphorical couches of the psychiatric community

> > are filled with NT's who were denied love, emotion and empathy

by

> > their NT parents and are essentially searching for the emotion

and

> > love they didn't get. Or, they are searching for the solutions

to

> > the dysfunctional love and manipulative emotion they did get.

> >

> > So to me, this isn't an AS thing entirely, but being emotionally

> > dead, unable to feel remorse or empathy is absolutely not a healthy

> > relationship component, in my view.

> >

> > In the case of AS, the neurological situation makes those things

> > difficult, if not impossible to access. In the case of NT's there

> > is a fair amount of psychological damage out there because of

the

> > absence or dysfunctional presence of those things as well.

> >

> > The contents of your post in general were weird for me. On the

> > one hand it spoke about a therapists view that people who were

> > emotionally dead with no ability to access remorse would be ideal

> > assassins. Then you went on to ask if those same people had the

> > ability to maintain relationships and be good parents.

> >

> > It was a mind bender for me. I thought of The Soprano's. They

> > killed people routinely, coldly, calloused and without remorse.

> > Then they went home and hugged their wife and kids. Perhaps that's

> > where you were going with your question?

> >

> > I'd still have the same opinion I stated above. It's sort of

like

> > how people think of dogs. They may appear to be the most loving

> > and cuddling animal in the world, but they are still dogs and

could

> > snap and bite at any moment. (Not comparing AS or NT to dogs).

> > I'm just thinking on how it would be to know your husband is

a cold

> > blooded killer as he kisses your neck while you're cooking his

> > dinner at the stove. I don't want THAT kind of emotional

> > availability either! LOL

> >

> > :::::::shudder::::::::

> >

> > Regards,

> > Anita 55 NT

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Janet,

The comment your husband made is very

correct. I can feel comfortable knowing my wife is there and do not

feel the need to talk. This is what produces a lot of the angst as

she cannot understand why I feel this way. This is why she believes

I do not care for her, but I do. I feel that I do anyway. I

understand that this disappoints her and she feels cheated, but I often

do not know how to open up the conversation if she is feeling this way.

I can be clumsy at that quite often and end up saying something she

thinks is either arrogant, a put down or insensitive. Not how it

is meant.

Greg

DX AS at 53

Janet Zimmerman

Sent by: aspires-relationships

03/02/2008 06:07 PM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships

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Subject

Re: empathising

with their wives

I like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's

like living with a zombie. this has been a bad week for me with some

real disappointments... I could use some interest at least... not asking

for pity here from him or anyone else. How about a conversation about

my life and feelings, options, ideas. there is no manifestation of

interest. I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would

not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am

bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it. sometimes I hate

him. and feel guilty.

I can hear him now, " We are together , why must we

chat? " Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for

him. wow, I must really be something. hahah janet ZEE

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is , " Can

I live with

> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy? " It is very lonely. I

keep

> wishing it was different and wondering, " Is it me? " .

[ snip ]

Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The

answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.

How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we

have different " ways of being " .

Which is my lead-in to 's question...

>

>> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally

>> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your

ability

>> to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your

>> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need

to

>> have a healthy relationship and parent?

>>

>> Your Comments?

....about " emotionally dead " , and both your questions about " remorse

and

empathy " .

Everybody " on the spectrum " *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally

dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.

It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not

*display* the same as do you.

And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to

you, but *of course* to us as well.

That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic " meltdowns', the

long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means " emotionless,

no remorse, no empathy " . But it's a false judgment.

The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ( " no

two

alike " ), is *different* from yours. Our premises about " the world "

are

different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we

display reactions to it differently.

The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't

speak English, right?

No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.

But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the

exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We

should behave like you do, right?

No, wrong. We " speak " a different " emotional " language.

We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret

over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all

that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.

For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath

the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.

The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.

It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a

slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.

The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to

note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and

Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.

- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Janet, Re. no need for conversation, I once ditched my AS partner for 1 yr to go out with ANOTHER guy who had AS! (Yes, really! I blame my grandfather for my attraction to men who may have AS)The second guy, K, was "worse". He complained that I talked too much. He bought a car and one Sunday he told me he was doing something, (I forget what) and came back later and said he'd been to Abergavenny, which is well over fifty miles away; then he'd called in to see some flamenco guitar-playing friends on the way back. "I might have liked to go with you" I said, seeing as it was a lovely summer day and the drive to A. is scenic.""Yes, I thought about that, he said, "but I realised I was

glad you weren't with me because I would have had to talk to you".This scarred me so much that, LOL, next time I went to A. with another person, 6 months later, I sat in the car in total silence, until she asked me if anything was wrong! I realised I'd got programmed into thinking one must go on long drives without speaking.Sadly, if it was a flamenco gig that K was playing at, I was expected to go along whether it was in Monmouth, Birmingham, or anywhere; distance no object. I got told off for wearing the wrong clothes to gigs, and when it was suggested that I took up flamenco dancing, he said he said I shouldn't bother!That is ONE relationship with an AS guy that was definitely not sustainable. He was further along the spectrum than my current partner, without a doubt.I don't know if that helps, I just wanted to share that I know how it feels to be regarded as mainly superfluous unless required for a specific

function.In pain at the memory,HelenaF, 43, NS, Stroud, England (as opposed to Abergavenny, which is in Wales) Re: empathising with their wives

I like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie. this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments. .. I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else. How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas. there is no manifestation of interest. I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it. sometimes I hate him. and feel guilty. I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?" Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him. wow, I must really be something. hahah janet ZEEJanet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of

people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships? ?????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known

Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm

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[Guest guest]

I need someone to TALK TO.... AND TALK BACK...  jkzLOL! I don't know what the hell happened this week but the NT womenare posting like mad on the list (myself included) in some kind of frenzy!I'm with you Janet, I totally get what Bill is saying and it's 100%true, we speak different languages. But as you said, gezzzzzzzknowing the communication is different is about 9,000 miles away from,"ok what do we do about it?" LOLIt's 2 o'clock in the morning here in New York. I had gone outearlier to run some errands, came back, went out again, ANNOUNCED mydepartures and arrivals each time.My zombie "just" this moment said, "oh, you're home?" LOL! I waslike, "are you kidding?"Your last line just killed me..lol "just being in physical proximitywith me is enough for him. Wow I must be something." On a serious note: I know so well how you feel Janet and I think I'mon such overload I'm just given to laughing about all of it tonight. If I don't laugh, I am going to cry a river of tears again and it getsso absurd at times. I know you hate it, sometimes you hate him and Iknow what you mean by feeling guilty. I think we should organize an Aspires convention once a year. We allmeet in one place. Everyone brings their significant other if theyhave one, or if they wish a traveling companion. We track downinexpensive accommodations, hire a conference room at the hotel, bringin some food and, instead of type...we talk. Voice to ear!Yeah....that could be good!Regards,Anita 55 NT> > >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are > > emotionally> > >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your > > ability> > >> to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your> > >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to> > >> have a healthy relationship and parent?> > >>> > >> Your Comments?> >> > ...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse > > and> > empathy".> >> > Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally> > dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.> >> > It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not> > *display* the same as do you.> >> > And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to> > you, but *of course* to us as well.> > That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the> > long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means > > "emotionless,> > no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.> >> > The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two> > alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are> > different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we> > display reactions to it differently.> >> > The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he > > can't> > speak English, right?> > No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.> >> > But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the> > exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We> > should behave like you do, right?> > No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.> >> > We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret> > over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all> > that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.> >> > For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath> > the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.> >> > The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.> > It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a> > slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.> > The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to> > note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and> > Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.> >> > - Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating> >> > -- > > WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA> > http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

thanks bill... the funny thing is that most think we have this perfect marriage.. what can I tell them.. nothing I just smile.   I do have  some best friends and no one would call me subservient... hahah.  I have made an interesting life for myself here on my own.  Many of my social contacts have only seen my husband once or twice ever or not at all.  The factor here for me and my life is where I live ... in a rural county of about 7000 people, the nearest 'town' (800) is 45 minutes by car over a mountain pass.  The neartest city (40,000) is 60 miles away.   The hamlet I live in only has 100 people.  It is very beautiful, clean and safe , also very boring for me.  After 30 years, I feel like I have exhausted the opportunities here, few as they are.   We have a very nice home and property all paid for, 2 kids in college... He makes the bulk of the money (after we ceased being business partner about 10 years ago after 20 years,)   I am interested in culture, politics, travel,  progressive social issues, I play music (sometimtes for $$) and like to be where the action is... I feel like I am at the place where I have to like it or lump it, to use an old phrase which really makes not a lot of sense as I write .     He however has the perfect aspie life, a huge shop, tools galore , all the work he wants and no one bothers him.  When I think about starting over at my age (56) the picture is not  pretty one.   jkz on the horns of a dilemma in which I am choosing to do nothing much about it right now. Janet Zimmerman wrote:> I like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with > a zombie. this has been a bad week for me with some real > disappointments... I could use some interest at least... not asking for > pity here from him or anyone else. How about a conversation about my > life and feelings, options, ideas. there is no manifestation of > interest. I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would > not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am > bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it. sometimes I hate > him. and feel guilty.First off (displaying empathy here <mock grin>) I *am* sorry to hear you live that way. I'm sorry to hear it from anybody. Nobody deserves to be lonely among "friends" - read one's family - especially one's spouse.There's nothing in the (modern, Western) marriage contract mandating you defer to him in all things; ...demanding your subservience. It sounds like he's getting far more from your marriage than you are. You need to level the playing field.The best advice I've heard here (and what my wife and I both have done) is to develop an *independent* "social set" of your own. Develop a few new Best Friends. (NOT ones as poorly off maritally as you.)I know plenty of couples (all NT/NT, btw) who've learned to live this way. Most like it: "...smartest move I ever made...", sometimes from both of them.Surprisingly, often it's enough that *one* make the leap. I imagine that's because "pressure" is relieved on *both* partners.Easy enough to talk about, sure. And/but sometimes not all that easy to do. On the other hand, it costs relatively little to try. And it doesn't foreclose *any* other options.Hey! What choice do you have really, except "split the blanket"? For many, for many reasons, that's no choice at all.> I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?" Just being > in physical proximity with me is enough for him. wow, I must really be > something. hahah janet ZEE> > >> Janet Zimmerman wrote:>>> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with >>> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep >>> wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".>> [ snip ]>>>> Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The >> answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.>>>> How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we >> have different "ways of being".[ snip ]- Bill, 75, AS-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

G I don't know the answer for us... I KNOW THAT I NEED MORE, not a lot but some.   I understand the comment about being phony.. that won't work at all. Maybe a guidebook you and I put together outlining 'THINGS TO DO"  . VERY SPECIFIC... NT -  do something special for me on my birthday, even if it is the same every year.  rituals are good.   AS - Do not tell me how to dress.  Now it is your turn... jkzJanet, The comment your husband made is very correct.  I can feel comfortable knowing my wife is there and do not feel the need to talk.  This is what produces a lot of the angst as she cannot understand why I feel this way.  This is why she believes I do not care for her, but I do.  I feel that I do anyway.  I understand that this disappoints her and she feels cheated, but I often do not know how to open up the conversation if she is feeling this way.  I can be clumsy at that quite often and end up saying something she thinks is either arrogant, a put down or insensitive.  Not how it is meant. GregDX AS at 53   Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> Sent by: aspires-relationships 03/02/2008 06:07 PMPlease respond toaspires-relationships Toaspires-relationships ccSubjectRe: empathising with their wivesI like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie.  this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments... I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else.  How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas.  there is no manifestation of interest.  I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it.  sometimes I hate him.  and feel guilty.  I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?"   Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him.  wow, I must really be something.  hahah janet ZEE Janet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships??????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

OMG.. when we ride together in the car, silence is de rigeur.. He can't think of anything to say... so that is what it has come to.... At least when I am by myslef in the car, I can sing and carry on which I do NOT do when he is with me.   jkz talks too much for himJanet, Re. no need for conversation, I once ditched my AS partner for 1 yr to go out with ANOTHER guy who had AS! (Yes, really! I blame my grandfather for my attraction to men who may have AS)The second guy, K, was "worse".  He complained that I talked too much. He bought a car and one Sunday he told me he was doing something, (I forget what) and  came back later and said he'd been to Abergavenny, which is well over fifty miles away; then he'd called in to see some flamenco guitar-playing friends on the way back. "I might have liked to go  with you" I said, seeing as it was a lovely summer day and the drive to A. is scenic.""Yes, I thought about that, he said, "but I realised I was glad you weren't with me because I would have had to talk to you".This scarred me so much that, LOL, next time I went to A. with another person, 6 months later, I sat in the car in total silence, until she asked me if anything was wrong! I realised I'd got programmed into thinking one must go on long drives without speaking.Sadly, if it was a flamenco gig that K was playing at, I was expected to go along whether it was in Monmouth, Birmingham, or anywhere; distance no object. I got told off for wearing the wrong clothes to gigs, and when it was suggested that I took up flamenco dancing, he said he said I shouldn't bother!That is ONE relationship with an AS guy that was definitely not sustainable. He was further along the spectrum than my current partner, without a doubt.I don't know if that helps, I just wanted to share that I know how it feels to be regarded as mainly superfluous unless required for a specific function.In pain at the memory,HelenaF, 43, NS, Stroud, England (as opposed to Abergavenny, which is in Wales) Re: empathising with their wivesI like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie.  this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments. .. I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else.  How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas.  there is no manifestation of interest.  I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it.  sometimes I hate him.  and feel guilty. I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?"   Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him.  wow, I must really be something.  hahah janet ZEEJanet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships? ?????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htmNever miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Greg Greer wrote:

> Bill,

>

> I agree with what you say. The overiding feeling I have when trying to

> communicate with my wife and daughters is the anxiety in trying to make

> sure they understand me.

You *might* be trying too hard?

Your words and manner might need some adjustment, so they/it come

across as sincere in *their* terms - not yours.

> They believe I do not care for them but deep

> down I do. Articulating that and trying not to seem phoney when I do

> is the problem I have. They are very good at picking up dissonances

> between body language and what is being said. After all they are NT.

Yeah. And not all NTs got " A " s in NT-school.

They have as much responsibility as you, in maintaining good

communications. A lot of NTs are no better in that regard, sometimes

worse, than AS.

Being " very good at picking up dissonances " is no help if one doesn't

*DO* something with the knowledge.

Hollering " FIRE " in a burning building is near useless unless

accompanied by action. ...Like helping *others* to escape.

They should be helping you, to help yourself, to help them. That

failure is *theirs*, not yours.

A difficult situation for you: The solution depends *completely* on the

nature of your and their interactions. Which I can't know; and/but they

may not be " sending " to you, either.

IMHO, repairing *any* marriage, AS+NT or not, *requires* BOTH parties'

full, open and honest engagement. One alone *cannot* do it.

It really does take Two to Tango. Seems to me you're moving; they're not.

Apologies, if I have that wrong.

>

> BTW Bill I was trying real hard to do stuff in trying to reconnect but

> the big thing is that my wife still cannot see any improvement in

> getting involved. Small steps but I admit I back slid and did not keep

> to my intentions. Still, head down, bottom up as they say.

>

Interesting phrase " head down, bottom up as they say " . Is it " s'trine " ?

I've got the " head down " bit, I think; but " bottom up " eludes me.

- Bill, 75, AS

> *WD Loughman *

> 03/02/2008 05:38 PM

> Subject Re: empathising with their wives

> Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> > interesting post ... the question I ask myself is , " Can I live with

> > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy? " It is very lonely. I keep

> > wishing it was different and wondering, " Is it me? " .

> [ snip ]

> Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The

> answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.

>

> How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we

> have different " ways of being " .

>

> Which is my lead-in to 's question...

> >

> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally

> >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability

> >> to form and maintain relationships???????

[ snip ]

> ...about " emotionally dead " , and both your questions about " remorse and

> empathy " .

>

> Everybody " on the spectrum " *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally

> dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.

>

> It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not

> *display* the same as do you.

[ snip ]

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

jkz, we should definitely go driving together, as long as you drive and we can both talk!With my current AS partner, long car journeys are one of our favourite things to do together. We make quite a goof team in the car, even though I can't actually drive! We can't affford any long trips right now because the Renault has Ac and is automatic and is therefore a gas guzzler and we can't sell it right now (long story). I have decided that if HE is not going anywhere, (and doesn't go out to work much either) then I need to go on trips to London, etc, to get some space for me. Went on a drama games workshop yesterday afternoon; great fun! Also found out about local group that goes on coach trips

to the theatre in another town. I'm intending to go: I went to the theatre a lot when my 17 yr old niece lived here, but dropped it after she left because of transport difficulities, It will be good to resume the habit, with transport porvided!Guess this what mean by hearing about people making postivie choices to help themselves.Helena F, 43 (just for today!), NSEngland Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] empathising with their wivesI like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie. this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments. .. I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else. How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas. there is no manifestation of interest. I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even

notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it. sometimes I hate him. and feel guilty. I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?" Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him. wow, I must really be something. hahah janet ZEEJanet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships? ?????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely

frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak

English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's

opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htmNever miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Once again Bill, you said it just right. I was thinking what you write here as I was reading through the posts. Thank you for advocating. I am not emotionless, I am not 'dead', I have more remorse than most folks I know. I *display* different. I am responsible.

Jennie AS - if you prick me do I not bleed?

>>...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena, If you rent a car at the airport, and get unlimited mileage, you can get a car with great mileage, and not add miles to your car. It really is not that expensive: I have done it when I needed to take a long trip, and could not use my own car, because it really would not have been feasible (my car had 200 thousand miles on it at the time). Helena Petre wrote: jkz, we should definitely go driving together, as long as you drive and we can both talk!With my current AS partner, long car journeys are one of our favourite things to do together. We make quite a goof team in the car, even though I can't actually drive! We can't affford any long trips right now because the Renault has Ac and is automatic and is therefore a gas guzzler and we can't sell it right now (long story). I have decided that if HE is not going anywhere, (and doesn't go out to work much either) then I need to go on trips to London, etc, to get some space

for me. Went on a drama games workshop yesterday afternoon; great fun! Also found out about local group that goes on coach trips to the theatre in another town. I'm intending to go: I went to the theatre a lot when my 17 yr old niece lived here, but dropped it after she left because of transport difficulities, It will be good to resume the habit, with transport porvided!Guess this what mean by hearing about people making postivie choices to help themselves.Helena F, 43 (just for today!), NSEngland Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] empathising with their wives I like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie. this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments. .. I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else. How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas. there is no manifestation of interest. I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it. sometimes I hate him.

and feel guilty. I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?" Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him. wow, I must really be something. hahah janet ZEE Janet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships? ?????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good

parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know*

us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive

to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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greg, that is pretty much where we are here... but we don't have the advantage of any input from a third party, like the counselor.  I wish for that.. I am seeing a lot of mirroring behavior in our relationship.   when I get down, have a disappointment, am bothered by someting etc., it shows on my face: I am no longer cheerful and animated.   He mirrors this, looks sad as I am and then he avoids me (I project no reason of my own here) .    This is what has happened this week.  This is just such a dead end, I don't know what the answer is or even how to proceed.  I just loose hope and there is no energy left to 'draw him out'.   I am a zombie too.   When things are tough, I would like to see him instigate something like... hey, let's go out to dinner and have a nice time together.  We get dressed up (a little is ok)  ..... it would be very enjoyable for me if we could be in the bedroom together and help each other choose what we were going to wear (with interest and enthusiam).   THAT is an intimate act for me.   Probably too 'girly' for some.    but it is just the same old routine and now we have a certain amount of cabin fever, so the routine is even more entrenched.  and silent .  and dull.   argh.  jkzBill, In colloquial language in AUS it is head down Bum up and alludes to being industrious as in nose to the grind stone. Strine has its genesis from the Cockney style of speaking made famous in My Fair Lady.  It is just a way to butcher words. For Example Emichisit? - How much is it? Howryagoinmateorright? - Good day mate, are you all right? I retreat into my work when things get tough at home.  I am not the victim in this but when there is hostility from one and being ignored from the others it gets tiresome. I just find my wife very difficult to communicate with and I believe she thinks the same of me.  I am more than happy to have her tell me what she wants, but she believes I need to work it out for myself. I like to talk about specifics, logical steps etc.  She tends to talk in generalities  and believes the psychologist when he says she cannot expect any thing from me. I will keep truckin.Gregdx AS at 53    WD Loughman <wdloughmanearthlink (DOT) net> Sent by: aspires-relationships 04/02/2008 04:20 PMPlease respond toaspires-relationships Toaspires-relationships ccSubjectRe: empathising with their wivesGreg Greer wrote:> Bill,> > I agree with what you say. The overiding feeling I have when trying to > communicate with my wife and daughters is the anxiety in trying to make > sure they understand me.You *might* be trying too hard?Your words and manner might need some adjustment, so they/it come across as sincere in *their* terms - not yours.> They believe I do not care for them but deep > down I do. Articulating that and trying not to seem phoney when I do > is the problem I have. They are very good at picking up dissonances> between body language and what is being said. After all they are NT.Yeah. And not all NTs got "A"s in NT-school.They have as much responsibility as you, in maintaining good communications. A lot of NTs are no better in that regard, sometimes worse, than AS.Being "very good at picking up dissonances" is no help if one doesn't *DO* something with the knowledge.Hollering "FIRE" in a burning building is near useless unless accompanied by action. ...Like helping *others* to escape.They should be helping you, to help yourself, to help them. That failure is *theirs*, not yours.A difficult situation for you: The solution depends *completely* on the nature of your and their interactions. Which I can't know; and/but they may not be "sending" to you, either.IMHO, repairing *any* marriage, AS+NT or not, *requires* BOTH parties' full, open and honest engagement. One alone *cannot* do it.It really does take Two to Tango. Seems to me you're moving; they're not.Apologies, if I have that wrong.> > BTW Bill I was trying real hard to do stuff in trying to reconnect but > the big thing is that my wife still cannot see any improvement in > getting involved. Small steps but I admit I back slid and did not keep > to my intentions. Still, head down, bottom up as they say.> Interesting phrase "head down, bottom up as they say". Is it "s'trine"?  I've got the "head down" bit, I think; but "bottom up" eludes me.- Bill, 75, AS> *WD Loughman <wdloughmanearthlink (DOT) net>*> 03/02/2008 05:38 PM> Subject Re: empathising with their wives> Janet Zimmerman wrote:> > interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with> > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep> > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".> [ snip ]> Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The> answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.> > How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we> have different "ways of being".> > Which is my lead-in to 's question...> > > >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally> >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability> >> to form and maintain relationships???????[ snip ]> ...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and> empathy".> > Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally> dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.> > It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not> *display* the same as do you.[ snip ]- Bill, 75, AS-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Janet...When I read you posts they just go "ding, ding, ding" for me. I think I am at the internal place you are right now. I'm 55, the finances aren't the problem. The house is paid, our daughter is fielding college acceptances for September. I don't know if we look like we have the perfect marriage, but I am certain nobody knows what's going on with us (well except the few close friends I confide in.)His life is exactly as he wants it....he is content to run the same checklist of ritualized behavior every day, have a good meal for dinner, watch some television and go to bed. That's it for him. He's in blissful heaven.We live on Long Island, a 20 minute train ride into Manhattan. I adore the theater, odd things like drumming classes, origami workshops, museum membership, concerts, ballet.....(ok that's enough, you get the picture, I am the artsy tartsy one.) He has gotten accustomed to going to the theater over the years but he rarely says, "oh I'd love to see that show." His interest in life is what I would call "passive" and even crisis is difficult to get him OFF pattern or OFF ritual.I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own. To go out with friends and have a swooping NT ole time. I am SURE I would like to fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love. It just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ethically/morally by marriage.I think my biggest fear (and maybe this is why others don't usually take the "have your own life" advice) is that I will so love and enjoy the ease of interaction with other NT's, that I could easily be attracted to an NT man out there in my travels. If this happened, I would never pursue it while married, but I would once again (I think) be reminded of what life could be like away from this relationship.There is a part of me that feels the longevity of some of these AS/NT marriages is due to the fact that:- The NT feels really bad about abandoning the AS (even though the AS probably doesn't feel it that way.- The NT doesn't go out regularly to get their "warm fuzzies" met, because frequent doses of the warm fuzzies only makes the lack of same more palpable at home.- The NT is positively afflicted with some or all of what has bee termed: Cassandra Affective Disorder. The depression, frustration and years of emotional modification cause the NT's to feel they are actually not competent enough to "start again". NT's may also feel they are undesirable "across the board" because they have lived for so long being what I call: invisible, to the AS in their life.I don't know Janet, I'm thinking I need a heap of therapy to undo the effects of trying to navigate my AS husband all these years. I feel a strong need to separate from him and I'm thinking the separation isn't going to be a time when I'm out there trying to "swoop it up" and have a great time. I think the separation time is going to be filled with putting myself back together so I can recognize myself again. I don't think I'm capable of making rational decisions about myself or my life right now. I've rambled a bit, but I was touched by your statements that at this time in your life you might have to: "like it or lump it" and that you view "starting over at your age" to not be a pretty picture.To me, this is what AS does to NT's. It makes them feel *stuck* and *incapable* because as AS is, in my life, there does not seem to be any way to reach my husband in terms of him ever being any different than he is now. I'm trying to keep the faith that I AM capable, and I'm not STUCK and if heaven forbid he passed away I WOULD have to start over again. I want to believe I am still a viable, desirable and dynamic woman and I think I'll need a separation from him to re-connect with myself to access these traits that were once MUCH closer to the surface of me.Keep the faith, Janet. It's an incredibly difficult job living with someone with AS, weak people can't do that job, there is something in you, in me, in others that is strong and capable. Don't buy into a self proclaimed myth, he's AS, not you.Regards,Anita 55 NT> > >>> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I > > live with> > >>> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep> > >>> wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".> > >> [ snip ]> > >>> > >> Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The> > >> answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.> > >>> > >> How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of > > people; we> > >> have different "ways of being".> > [ snip ]> >> > - Bill, 75, AS> >> > -- > > WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA> > http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm> >> >> >>

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I love to drive... and I have a Honda Civic that get s 40 miles per gallon... $2.95 (US) is what we pay for .... petrol.  jkzjkz, we should definitely go driving together, as long as you drive and we can both talk!With my current AS partner, long car journeys are one of our favourite things to do together. We make quite a goof team in the car, even though I can't actually drive! We can't affford any long trips right now because the Renault has Ac and is automatic and is therefore a gas guzzler and we can't sell it right now (long story). I have decided that  if HE is not going anywhere, (and doesn't go out to work much either) then I need to go on trips to London, etc, to get some space for me. Went on a drama games workshop yesterday afternoon; great fun! Also found out about local group that goes on coach trips to the theatre in another town. I'm intending to go: I went to the theatre a lot when my 17 yr old niece lived here, but dropped it after she left because of transport difficulities, It will be good to resume the habit, with transport porvided!Guess this what mean by hearing about people making postivie choices to help themselves.Helena F, 43 (just for today!), NSEngland Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] empathising with their wivesI like to hear you say this bill, but gee whiz... it's like living with a zombie.  this has been a bad week for me with some real disappointments. .. I could use some interest at least... not asking for pity here from him or anyone else.  How about a conversation about my life and feelings, options, ideas.  there is no manifestation of interest.  I swear if I did not say anything to him all day, he would not instigate a conversation of any kind and not even notice. when I am bothered about something, he avoids me. I hate it.  sometimes I hate him.  and feel guilty. I can hear him now, "We are together , why must we chat?"   Just being in physical proximity with me is enough for him.  wow, I must really be something.  hahah janet ZEEJanet Zimmerman wrote:> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I live with > a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep > wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".[ snip ]Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of people; we have different "ways of being".Which is my lead-in to 's question...> >> I think one of the questions that came up was if you are emotionally >> dead or cannot feel remorse or empathy, _can_ that impair your ability >> to form and maintain relationships? ?????? Would this impair your >> ability to be a good parent???? Are these skills that you need to >> have a healthy relationship and parent?>> >> Your Comments?...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htmNever miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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I so totally hear and believe you.. how do we bridge this gap?  Janet ZEEOnce again Bill, you said it just right. I was thinking what you write here as I was reading through the posts. Thank you for advocating. I am not emotionless, I am not 'dead', I have more remorse than most folks I know. I *display* different. I am responsible. Jennie AS - if you prick me do I not bleed? >>...about "emotionally dead", and both your questions about "remorse and empathy".Everybody "on the spectrum" *I've* ever talked with is NOT emotionally dead. We CAN feel both remorse and empathy, and more.It's the *display* of those things that differ in us; we do not *display* the same as do you.And when we're misunderstood, it's intensely frustrating. NOT just to you, but *of course* to us as well.That frustration is what leads to the AS/autistic "meltdowns', the long silences, ...the *withdrawal* which to many NTs means "emotionless, no remorse, no empathy". But it's a false judgment.The world we live in, to greater or lesser degrees for us all ("no two alike"), is *different* from yours. Our premises about "the world" are different from yours. So we understand it differently from you, and we display reactions to it differently.The Swahili visitor to Cow-Hollow, USA is mute, right? Because he can't speak English, right?No, wrong. Simply, he speaks a foreign language.But we look like you, we speak the same language, maybe went to the exact same schools. You *know* us, right? So you marry us, right? We should behave like you do, right?No, wrong. We "speak" a different "emotional" language.We bleed like you do; we hurt like you do. We CRY like you do. We fret over injustice, worry about others, ...like you do. But we DISPLAY all that very differently from you. Just the same, we do feel.For all that, our differences are more syntactical than real. Beneath the skin, we're a lot more alike than different.The is not just one man's opinion; nor even one AS man's opinion.It's the opinion of millions of autists around the globe, and a slowly increasing number of mental-health professionals as well.The US, btw, is rather backward in that regard. It's instructive to note: Aston and Baron-Cohen are English, Fitzgerald is Irish, and Attwood is Australian, etc., etc. No well-known Americans.- Bill, 75, AS-fershur; ...advocating