Re: empathising with their wives

[Guest guest]

wow.   anita, so ditto.   I am so feeling like I am on the outside looking in at other people's realtionships that seem more normal and dynamic.   BUT... I have a new tack... I am trying to look at everything as being more connected... the 'all is one' concept.  We are all part of God, God is in us all, we are all part of each other on an energy level.  It is the ego that makes us seperate... needy ... in pain... desire and attachment bring suffering.   I am tryng to separate my ego from my real energetic self.. and see him (the husband) as a part of me and I a part of him.   Just as it all is.    This may just be a little mental dalliance on my part... too woo-woo for some, but for now it helps me be more focused and relaxed and feel who I really am.... and be in the moment. jkz taking a chance... Janet...When I read you posts they just go "ding, ding, ding" for me.   I think I am at the internal place you are right now.  I'm 55, the finances aren't the problem.  The house is paid, our daughter is fielding college acceptances for September.  I don't know if we look like we have the perfect marriage, but I am certain nobody knows what's going on with us (well except the few close friends I confide in.)His life is exactly as he wants it....he is content to run the same checklist of ritualized behavior every day, have a good meal for dinner, watch some television and go to bed.  That's it for him.  He's in blissful heaven.We live on Long Island, a 20 minute train ride into Manhattan.  I adore the theater, odd things like drumming classes, origami workshops, museum membership, concerts, ballet.....(ok that's enough, you get the picture, I am the artsy tartsy one.)  He has gotten accustomed to going to the theater over the years but he rarely says, "oh I'd love to see that show."  His interest in life is what I would call "passive" and even crisis is difficult to get him OFF pattern or OFF ritual.I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own.  To go out with friends and have a swooping NT ole time.  I am SURE I would like to fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love.  It just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ethically/morally by marriage.I think my biggest fear (and maybe this is why others don't usually take the "have your own life" advice) is that I will so love and enjoy the ease of interaction with other NT's, that I could easily be attracted to an NT man out there in my travels.   If this happened, I would never pursue it while married, but I would once again (I think) be reminded of what life could be like away from this relationship.There is a part of me that feels the longevity of some of these AS/NT marriages is due to the fact that:- The NT feels really bad about abandoning the AS (even though the AS probably doesn't feel it that way.- The NT doesn't go out regularly to get their "warm fuzzies" met, because frequent doses of the warm fuzzies only makes the lack of same more palpable at home.- The NT is positively afflicted with some or all of what has bee termed:  Cassandra Affective Disorder.  The depression, frustration and years of emotional modification cause the NT's to feel they are actually not competent enough to "start again".  NT's may also feel they are undesirable "across the board" because they have lived for so long being what I call:  invisible, to the AS in their life.I don't know Janet, I'm thinking I need a heap of therapy to undo the effects of trying to navigate my AS husband all these years.  I feel a strong need to separate from him and I'm thinking the separation isn't going to be a time when I'm out there trying to "swoop it up" and have a great time.  I think the separation time is going to be filled with putting myself back together so I can recognize myself again. I don't think I'm capable of making rational decisions about myself or my life right now.  I've rambled a bit, but I was touched by your statements that at this time in your life you might have to:   "like it or lump it" and that you view "starting over at your age" to not be a pretty picture.To me, this is what AS does to NT's.  It makes them feel *stuck* and *incapable* because as AS is, in my life, there does not seem to be any way to reach my husband in terms of him ever being any different than he is now.  I'm trying to keep the faith that I AM capable, and I'm not STUCK and if heaven forbid he passed away I WOULD have to start over again.  I want to believe I am still a viable, desirable and dynamic woman and I think I'll need a separation from him to re-connect with myself to access these traits that were once MUCH closer to the surface of me.Keep the faith, Janet.  It's an incredibly difficult job living with someone with AS, weak people can't do that job, there is something in you, in me, in others that is strong and capable.  Don't buy into a self proclaimed myth, he's AS, not you.Regards,Anita 55 NT> > >>> interesting post ... the question I ask myself is ,"Can I > > live with> > >>> a spouse who has no remorse or empathy?" It is very lonely. I keep> > >>> wishing it was different and wondering, "Is it me?".> > >> [ snip ]> > >>> > >> Most AS, particularly of school age, ask the *same* question. The> > >> answer to both NT and AS is -- No, it's BOTH you AND them.> > >>> > >> How can it be otherwise? We and thee are different kinds of > > people; we> > >> have different "ways of being".> > [ snip ]> >> > - Bill, 75, AS> >> > -- > > WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA> > http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote:

> Your last line just killed me..lol " just being in physical proximity

> with me is enough for him. Wow I must be something. "

Start learning, it was serious and correct. Please understand what it means.

Critical is that it is not personal, nothing about rejection, applies to

everyone.

Physically present is with. For an NT ambiguously there is no presence

without non-verbal and the physical presence of the other person is

irrelevant.

Don't agree?

Go on, you go all emotional silly over utter fakes such as film or tv,

yet physical presence, you reject that as nothing. (hence the complaints)

Does another penny drop... why someone else physically present is so

disturbing to AS? We cannot just ignore physical presence.

Odd thing though, neither can an NT, hence the ambiguity! Physical

presence brings complaints, only deal seems to be absence or non-verbal.

Maybe that makes no sense, I can only try and explain.

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote:

> Janet...

>

> I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and

> embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own. To go out

> with friends and have a swooping NT ole time. I am SURE I would like to

> fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love. It

> just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he

> wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ethically/morally

> by marriage.

There is one thorny problem. When you return you will be spilling over

to tell him about it all and he will not want to hear.

I've found that politely listening does not work, seen as fake, which it is.

The answer? Wish I knew.

Just occured to me that Dorothy Rowe has written a lot about marriage

where she firmly believes that successful ones are always

introvert/extrovert. Here we are talking pretty extreme but perhaps she

has written and given some answers.

Anyone here read her stuff?

[Guest guest]

Just occured to me that Dorothy Rowe has written a lot about marriage

where she firmly believes that successful ones are always

introvert/extrovert. Here we are talking pretty extreme but perhaps

she has written and given some answers.

Anyone here read her stuff?

Hi Tim:

A simple internet search suggests are field is depression?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Rowe

http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/index.php?u=Who_is_Dorothy_Rowe.htm

Dorothy Rowe is a clinical psychologist and writer who is renowned

for her work on how we create meaning, and how the meanings we create

determine what we do. Her application of this understanding to the

problems of depression and of fear has changed many people's lives

for the better, and has caused many mental health professionals to

think more carefully about how they deal with people who are

suffering great mental distress. She writes regularly for newspapers

and magazines, appears frequently in the media, and is the author of

12 books, the most popular of which are Depression: The Way Out of

Your Prison which is in its third edition, and Beyond Fear which is

in its second edition. Her latest book My Dearest Enemy, My Dangerous

Friend is a radical examination of what is often the most important

relationships in our lives, our relationships with our siblings. It

will be published by Routledge in April 2007.

Dorothy was born Dorothy Conn in Newcastle, NSW, Australia, in 1930.

She was educated at Newcastle Girls' High and Sydney University where

she obtained a degree in psychology and a Diploma of Education. She

taught for three years, married in 1956 and her son was born

in 1957. She returned to teaching when he was two but was offered the

opportunity to train as a school counsellor (educational

psychologist) and went on to become Specialist for Emotionally

Disturbed Children. At the same time she completed her Diploma in

Clinical Psychology. In 1965 her marriage came to an end, and in 1968

she and went to England. She accepted a National Health

Service post at Whiteley Wood Clinic, Sheffield, which was the clinic

attached to Sheffield University Department of Psychiatry where Alec

Jenner, already well known for his work on the biological basis of

mood change, had recently taken up his post as Professor of

Psychiatry. This began Dorothy's close scrutiny of the research into

the biological basis of mental disorder. She became an Associate of

the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is now Emeritus Associate of

the Royal College.

Alec Jenner suggested to Dorothy that her research PhD topic should

be `Psychological aspects of regular mood change'. Quite

serendipitously, the psychologist Don Bannister was busy introducing

British psychologists to the work of and Personal

Construct Theory. Dorothy discovered that she had always been a

personal construct psychologist without knowing it. had

developed a technique called repertory grids which enabled the

researcher to examine the meanings which an individual had created

around a particular subject or situation. Slater, a

psychologist at the Institute of Psychiatry in London, provided

invaluable help to Dorothy in her research by his development of

computer software which analysed grids.

In 1971 Dorothy completed her PhD, and in 1972 she went to

Lincolnshire to set up and head the Lincolnshire Department of

Clinical Psychology. Dorothy obtained a research grant which enabled

her to continue her research. This research became the basis of her

first book The Experience of Depression, now called Choosing Not

Losing. Her second book The Construction of Life and Death (The

Courage to Live) was published in 1982. A chance discussion with the

manager of a health food shop led to her third book, Depression: The

Way Out of Your Prison, now in its third edition. This book won the

Mind Book of the Year Award in 1984. More books followed.

In 1986 Dorothy left the National Health Service to become self-

employed. She moved to Sheffield where she lived for nine years. In

1995 she moved to London where she still lives. She writes regularly

for Saga Magazine and Openmind, and intermittently for other

publications. She is frequently interviewed on radio and television,

and she has a great many conversations with journalists who phone her

for advice and information.

[Guest guest]

Anita wrote:"Your last line [one of Janet's lines] just killed me..lol "just being in physical proximitywith me is enough for him. Wow I must be something." Tim Writes:"Start learning, it was serious and correct. Please understand what it means. Critical is that it is not personal, nothing about rejection, applies to everyone. Physically present is with. For an NT ambiguously there is no presence without non-verbal and the physical presence of the other person is irrelevant. Don't agree?"Anita Writes:Nope, don't agree. Our daughter is NT, we can be in the same room and not say a word. She looks at me, I look at her, we smile. She sits on the couch next to me, I touch her hair, she smiles, I smile, she puts her head on my shoulder, I put my arm around her. No conversation, no drama, no nothing. But there is no question we are BOTH THERE, utterly in love, totally present for each other. Without a sound. Not one word.When that isn't happening, she and I "bring" things to each other. "Mom, I want to show you something I read in the paper today"....."Hon, I saw this lovely outfit in a catalogue that would look fabulous on you for your trip to Florida during Spring Break." "Mom, is it normal for me to still feel really weird each time I notice Robin's (our deceased 20 year old niece) picture on the wall, even though she has been gone for a year and a half?It's not "just" about verbal/non-verbal communication, it is the CONTENT of the communication, the INTENT of it, the bringing and sharing of things, however mundane, however significant.Tim Writes:"Go on, you go all emotional silly over utter fakes such as film or tv, yet physical presence, you reject that as nothing. (hence the complaints).Does another penny drop... why someone else physically present is so disturbing to AS? We cannot just ignore physical presence.Odd thing though, neither can an NT, hence the ambiguity! Physical presence brings complaints, only deal seems to be absence or non-verbal.Maybe that makes no sense, I can only try and explain.Anita Writes:See Above. It probably makes sense to every AS on the list, as it should. As Bill aptly points out, we speak different languages, even when we are not speaking.Regards,Anita NT 55

[Guest guest]

Hi Tim, I have a quick question, here. I am AS, but often like to try to join in with my NT friends in doing things that are common, even though the social setting is hard for me. (That is, were I married, I would not just send him to socialize on his own all the time.) I do pick and choose, but I am willing to venture way out of my comfort zone, at least some of the time, to try to grow. My solution has been to disclose little bits of AS to key people who are around, and can help me to relate to my environment a bit better. For example, I will ask someone about a conversation where I missed a few things, so that I can fill in the blanks, and follow along. I feel much better with the details filled in. Are there other AS folk on this list who do not like missing details of conversations, and feel better when

everything is filled in, too? I know that I have to be a bit careful- NTs do not always have patience with my questions, so I would love to get some help with this. What are some ways that I could help them take my questions in the way they are meant- I am not being mean or senseless, but trying to follow along, and care, and be part of this? When friends who know are there, it is easier, of course, but it is not always practical to disclose/ Tim Channon wrote: srabande wrote:> Janet...> > I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and> embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own. To go out> with friends and have a swooping NT ole time. I am SURE I would like to> fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love. It> just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he> wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ethically/morally> by marriage.There is one thorny problem. When you return you will be spilling over to tell him about it all and he will not want to hear.I've found that politely listening does not work, seen as fake, which it is.The answer? Wish I knew.Just occured to me that Dorothy Rowe has written a lot about marriage where she firmly believes that

successful ones are always introvert/extrovert. Here we are talking pretty extreme but perhaps she has written and given some answers.Anyone here read her stuff?

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tim, I have a quick question, here. I am AS, but often like to try to join in with my NT friends in doing things that are common, even though the social setting is hard for me. (That is, were I married, I would not just send him to socialize on his own all the time.) I do pick and choose, but I am willing to venture way out of my comfort zone, at least some of the time, to try to grow. My solution has been to disclose little bits of AS to key people who are around, and can help me to relate to my environment a bit better. For example, I will ask someone about a conversation where I missed a few things, so that I can fill in the blanks, and follow along. I feel much better with the details filled in. Are there other AS folk on this list who do not like missing details of conversations, and feel better when

everything is filled in, too? I know that I have to be a bit careful- NTs do not always have patience with my questions, so I would love to get some help with this. What are some ways that I could help them take my questions in the way they are meant- I am not being mean or senseless, but trying to follow along, and care, and be part of this? When friends who know are there, it is easier, of course, but it is not always practical to disclose/ Tim Channon wrote: srabande wrote:> Janet...> > I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and> embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own. To go out> with friends and have a swooping NT ole time. I am SURE I would like to> fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love. It> just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he> wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ethically/morally> by marriage.There is one thorny problem. When you return you will be spilling over to tell him about it all and he will not want to hear.I've found that politely listening does not work, seen as fake, which it is.The answer? Wish I knew.Just occured to me that Dorothy Rowe has written a lot about marriage where she firmly believes that

successful ones are always introvert/extrovert. Here we are talking pretty extreme but perhaps she has written and given some answers.Anyone here read her stuff?

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I used to love Dorothy Rowe! Heard her talk at a festival; it was about depression. She is so common-sense based. Will dig her out again.As for "not wanting to talk about it" (whatever the NS has been doing;, sure that is spot-on, but at least I've had three days/hours of doing stimulating stuff outside the home; better than staying in and trying to stack the dishwasher "correctly"!I have always had my own life/interests in this relationship and I am 100% saner for it.I am truly not envious of those joined-at-the-hip couples who feel guilty if they don't spend all their weekends together. That would make me feel claustrophobic. However, I was brought up as one of six, and father was

absent, mother was depressed so emotionally absent, so my starting point is off-centre.HelenaF, 44, NS, England Re: Re: empathising with their wives

srabande wrote:

> Janet...

>

> I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and

> embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own. To go out

> with friends and have a swooping NT ole time. I am SURE I would like to

> fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love. It

> just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he

> wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ ethically/ morally

> by marriage.

There is one thorny problem. When you return you will be spilling over

to tell him about it all and he will not want to hear.

I've found that politely listening does not work, seen as fake, which it is.

The answer? Wish I knew.

Just occured to me that Dorothy Rowe has written a lot about marriage

where she firmly believes that successful ones are always

introvert/extrovert . Here we are talking pretty extreme but perhaps she

has written and given some answers.

Anyone here read her stuff?

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Guest guest]

Tim, JANET here, I wrote the line in quotes below.  For me it is not comfortable to be physically present with someone who does not look at me or speak to me...for hours , days etc.   I feel ignored.  invisible.  I am not saying that the person has to keep up a running chatter and constantly be checking me our visibly.   I do understand and accept that this is satisfying for him.  Comforting even, perhaps.  BUT WHAT ABOUT ME?  It's not ok for one person to be enjoying their comfort zone while their companionis having a very bad time of it.    I can't get used to this.  I am tolerating it, but sometimes it really get to me.   Janet ZEEsrabande wrote:> Your last line just killed me..lol "just being in physical proximity> with me is enough for him. Wow I must be something." Start learning, it was serious and correct. Please understand what it means.Critical is that it is not personal, nothing about rejection, applies to everyone.Physically present is with. For an NT ambiguously there is no presence without non-verbal and the physical presence of the other person is irrelevant.Don't agree?Go on, you go all emotional silly over utter fakes such as film or tv, yet physical presence, you reject that as nothing. (hence the complaints)Does another penny drop... why someone else physically present is so disturbing to AS? We cannot just ignore physical presence.Odd thing though, neither can an NT, hence the ambiguity! Physical presence brings complaints, only deal seems to be absence or non-verbal.Maybe that makes no sense, I can only try and explain.

[Guest guest]

In my case, when I return home, he does want to know but I am not always wanting to tell...go figure. jkzsrabande wrote:> Janet...> > I so hear Bill's and others advice about NT's moving toward and> embracing the concept of doing things they love on their own. To go out> with friends and have a swooping NT ole time. I am SURE I would like to> fill my dance card (so to speak) with all sorts of things I love. It> just seems terrible to go and lead a separate life from him (I'm sure he> wouldn't mind at all), yet be tied to him, responsibly/ethically/morally> by marriage.There is one thorny problem. When you return you will be spilling over to tell him about it all and he will not want to hear.I've found that politely listening does not work, seen as fake, which it is.The answer? Wish I knew.Just occured to me that Dorothy Rowe has written a lot about marriage where she firmly believes that successful ones are always introvert/extrovert. Here we are talking pretty extreme but perhaps she has written and given some answers.Anyone here read her stuff?

[Guest guest]

I think the reason arguments and struggles surfaced was because it became clear over time that my husband was emotionally dead and could not feel remorse or empathy.

In my case, and all appear to be different, this statement is not correct in any way. My 'partner' is not emotionally dead and certainly does have remorse and empathy. He appears to be emotionally dead - but I know he has emotions. He cannot identify them well, cannot express them well in either his way or my way. But he feels very deeply. He does not express remorse as I do, cannot well identify it - and the same for empathy.

But I get it - on my 'bad days' I see him in that way - and I am angry and lonely and all the sad and negative emotions that we all express.

On the days that I really get it better, I feel empathy for someone as good as he is who knows he does damage, cannot communicate that well, does not know how to do it better, and is literally caged by the limitations of AS. He refuses to believe or know more about AS. In my view, the saddest part of that is that he cannot see the positive or negative gifts of AS. And of course, this contributes to his low self esteem and his tendency to melt down and l remove himself from any challenge.

He has compared himself to NT standards his whole life and come up lacking. Naturally, this would be the case because he is not a very 'good' NT because he is an excellent example of AS. So, he feels he is broken or not enough because he cannot acknowledge the pluses of AS and take his positives and build on them rather than only seeing himself lacking.

This to me is the sadness of adult AS that children identified now may not have to deal with. With no knowledge of anything like this growing up, someone like him grows up only being judged and judging themselves through NT filters, and then yes - they are lacking. Layers and layers of this and they are buried. Their light cannot come through. In his case, add an abusive, alcoholic, AS father and the family dynamic that grew from that, and you have real issues.

So what he appears to be - and most particularly to me - is an illusion. His feelings are as unknown to him as they are to me. Very tragic.

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

there is a fine posting on this site outlining the positive aspects of AS... I hope you can get it ... Janet ZEEI  think the reason arguments and struggles surfaced was because it became clear over time that my husband was emotionally dead and could not feel remorse or empathy.   In my case, and all appear to be different, this statement is not correct in any way.  My 'partner' is not emotionally dead and certainly does have remorse and empathy.  He appears to be emotionally dead - but I know he has emotions.  He cannot identify them well, cannot express them well in either his way or my way.  But he feels very deeply.  He does not express remorse as I do, cannot well identify it - and the same for empathy.  But I get it - on my 'bad days' I see him in that way - and I am angry and lonely and all the sad and negative emotions that we all express.  On the days that I really get it better, I feel empathy for someone as good as he is who knows he does damage, cannot communicate that well, does not know how to do it better, and is literally caged by the limitations of AS.  He refuses to believe or know more about AS.  In my view, the saddest part of that is that he cannot see the positive or negative gifts of AS.  And of course, this contributes to his low self esteem and his tendency to melt down and l remove himself from any challenge.  He has compared himself to NT standards his whole life and come up lacking.  Naturally, this would be the case because he is not a very 'good' NT because he is an excellent example of AS.  So, he feels he is broken or not enough because he cannot acknowledge the pluses of AS and take his positives and build on them rather than only seeing himself lacking.  This to me is the sadness of adult AS that children identified now may not have to deal with.  With no knowledge of anything like this growing up, someone like him grows up only being judged and judging themselves through NT filters, and then yes - they are lacking.  Layers and layers of this and they are buried.  Their light cannot come through.  In his case, add an abusive, alcoholic, AS father and the family dynamic that grew from that, and you have real issues. So what he appears to be - and most particularly to me - is an illusion.  His feelings are as unknown to him as they are to me.  Very tragic. Cheryl

[Guest guest]

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> Tim, JANET here, I wrote the line in quotes below. For me it is not

> comfortable to be physically present with someone who does not look at

> me or speak to me...for hours , days etc.

> I feel ignored. invisible. I am not saying that the person has to keep

> up a running chatter and constantly be checking me our visibly.

>

> I do understand and accept that this is satisfying for him. Comforting

> even, perhaps. BUT WHAT ABOUT ME? It's not ok for one person to be

> enjoying their comfort zone while their companion

> is having a very bad time of it. I can't get used to this. I am

> tolerating it, but sometimes it really get to me. Janet ZEE

Absolutely right, there is a conflict.

Speaking personally just making some allowance and giving some space is

enough. Hours on end, that is unreasonable if you are in the same room.

True two way contact is not going to happen though.

Trouble is that I do go for hours in the same house so perhaps I do the

same thing.

I know my reaction is a recoil if someone comes into the room and

apparently this is noticeable, not intentional. I probably cannot name

what I feel in the same language as you, to me similar to anxiety.

I have read and wonder how much is played by the notion that humans are

dangerous and non verbal is to do with checking out the danger. That

makes some sense if what I feel is anxiety and I cannot do that checking

out. Would fit with you feeling anxiety if you can't either.

I don't like talking about others, I will though make an exception, my

wife has said that my being silent has echos of her late father who if

he was silent was in an explosively bad mood. I never saw that, seemed

perfectly ok to me.

This stuff is very strange. For example, given definite purpose,

definite actions I deal with people very well indeed. I suppose that is

more a business face. The problems arise when there is silence, nothing

to say. That though might be because of single focus, if acting that is

the full attention so there is no perception of anything else.

Wish I understood this stuff.