A Woman with AS share her thoughts with us...

January 4, 2008

Hi PC.. As I age I find myself bcoming more neutral about social situations. I find most all people interesting but I am not 'attracted to' nor do I 'like' all of them. I mostly let people come to me and that seems much more relaxed. but I get great pleasure out of observing and listening without really reacting. I didn't always used to be this way. I get the impression that some AS feel as if we NT are all in a club together and the AS can't quite access the secret code. Nothing could be further from the truth.. we Nts are always struggling, each in thier own way, to fit in and be a part of what ever social structure we are faced with. I don't know where people are coming from either... it really varies from person to person ... and most of the time, I don't stress about it or even care sometimes. well, enough ramble for now. Janet ZEE who is wondering if someone will find it annoying that I did not delete the old part of this exchange...Hi Janet, Sorry for my delayed reply. I like your post- it shows where I was at one time. It made me feel good about how far I have come, and excited about how far i can still grow- areas some of which are completely unknown to me, but which you know. I quite understand my limitations, here-- the "black and white" issue is a lack of central coherence, and if you and other NTs and other AS people who know will help me to fill in the puzzle, then I can do shades of gray too, and enjoy them very much. I have learned to recognize this tendency in myself, and ask for help when I need it. As to getting creative socially, I can, when I have enough central coherence about a situation. When I do not, which is often, I have learned to ask for key ingredients I can use to get an idea of where the people are coming from, or what is required, at enough depth to get creative. This can take time, and wear out a poor hapless NT (smile) who is around when I ask- so I often try to ask parts of what I need in succession- ask several different people, without giving up details that would lead to gossip- so that i can learn what I need. This is far more enjoyable and helpful for me than any scripted converssation would be. As to lack of theory of mind- yes, I have been quite defensive due to that. I now know that just the act of being open, and not defensive, reads well to the NT community (yes, I am generalizing- so please let me know if this os too cut and dried). in addition, I can be tempted to get defensive anyway in certain situations, and have to remind myself to wait if I feel that way, or to ask a question to learn more without seeming defensive- sometimes, merely enquiring can look defensive if phrased wrong, so I have to be quite careful about this. If I say what I am thinking- that I am not sure where the other person is coming from because I lack theory of mind in the relevant area (or paraphrase this to a person Ihave not told I am AS), then it looks like I am just asking where someone is coming from, and indeed, that looks defensive at times. Of course, we are all different- indeed, any two people are different. I can understand part of your processing style by analogy. I know that by analogy, you can understand part of mine. Think of it as cross-cultural communication: We are both good, and have rich cultural flavor, and can learn each other's languages. Neither of us will be native to the other culture, but we can certainly communicate and appreciate each other. As to the statement about being creative and being socially astute's being mutually exclusive characteristics, in frustration, I used to believe that as well. Because this post is too long already, I will delay my explanation of why I believed that at one time for a later post. Suffice it to say that I know it is not correct, at this point in time. I have always viewed myself as creative. There are other members of my family who are extremely creative as well-- some are NT. Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote:Hmmm. what to say... I can only make my own reflexions ... what this writer's musings bring up for me. and the thoughts I share are those that come up often when reading posts on this site and dealing with my own AS husband. At the risk of offending AS people here I offer :AS are more defensive than they need to be, taking any sort of criticism so literally that the criticism fails to have any useful purpose. AS tend to be dual.. everything is black and white; there always being a right or wrong answer. I could give the examples of this I see in this message, but instead I challenge anyone who is truly interested to find them themselves. In closing, I will also challenge AS to accept that we are all different and it is not really that big a deal unless you make it so. I say accept, because I think that AS, because of thier processing style, cannot really understand. Just the way I accept that our processing style is different but I can't understand it. The duality of this writer's thinking is exhibited in her assessment that one who is not creative is socially creative. And the suppostition that AS has been invented to explain people who are more cerebral and skilled (often too much skill) than those who depend on social skills ... skill is almost nothing, social skill is everything.. well, this sort simplistic thinking is completely counter productive and can lead to theories which I find downright dangerous. Janet ZEE- NT socially skilled, very creative, high work ethic, possessing many skills, I don't exactly 'fit in' either but not having a pity party. . Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

January 6, 2008

Newland wrote:> Dear Princess:>> I am not sure anyone can make a blanket statement that AS Female + NS> Male is better or worse than a NT Female + AS Male.[ snip ]> I know several AS> woman married to NS men that have wonderful relationships. Due to AS,> they don't seem to place the emotional demands on their partner that> many NT woman do. They are strong, independent and that can be very> charming and attractive for some men.Is the dx for these AS women "official"? ...Just being snoopy:"Inquiring minds want to know".

Just one that I know of and she disclosed to me in private as she was divorced at the time with a AS son. I met her in advocacy and mediation training and was shocked as I ASSUMED it was the biological father and she said NO, he was just a JERK. It was her and her father on her side of the family. She was a very STRONG advocate while she lived in California and said, why do you think I do what I can do? Her strength was her ability to hyper-focus and cut out all the bull. She was able to see the emotion, but cut it out of the picture when she advocated of which you need to do to be successful. You need to be able to validate feelings but get your point across in a way that does not offend the other side. I do this at work all day long and it is hard when you have someone you are dealing with that is angry and stuck on one point, especially when they say, "can you understand WHY I am angry and ready to leave YOUR company?" Yes I can and I always apologize for any miscommunication and than explain how the system works. I am fortunate to work for a small company that allows a one time educational credit. Wait till Verizon takes over and they don't credit like we do. I think a lot of it is lack of training on the front lines and a failure to disclose how their plan and features work and the limitations. I work for a wireless carrier where there is a high turn over due to stress and the instability of the industry. A lot of AS behavior, the most noticeable is the immaturity of some. Some times it feels like you are repeating the third grade. lol

I really had to laugh the other day when a self dx. AS woman whom I love as we are from the same generation and I swear our AS daughters are long lost twins <wink> said to me in private a phrase that I thought was hysterical and said we should get t-shirts with this and don't you wish we could say this to customers? I got her on the phone later that day and repeated the phrase: "Sorry, this day is all about me and not you, Good Bye," and I hung up. lol She sits about three feet away from me and we busted up laughing.

When you work in a fast pace, high stressed environment and are getting nailed over and over again you need some comedy relief. You have to know when to walk away and end the call or pass them to someone else. It is a life lesson. Sometimes, some people just push your buttons. We all can use social and communication training. There have been times when someone has pushed my buttons and I have had to say, maybe someone else can explain this better? Let me transfer you with the other person saying, I read your memos and I am just going to say the same thing, BUT maybe your tone or words may be different and they will get it????? Often times it is the delivery or combination of our words that make a difference? You don't have to have AS not to get it. Just me.

Actually, the relevance here is my mother (R.I.P.) who...> I think we tend to get hung up on labels and should be> looking more at behavior of why or why not the relationship is not> working for one or both partners and what partners can do to improve it.AMEN!Bear in mind the labels are *opinions* only! They have no support from_objective tests_ because there *aren't* any. Sometimes, even those(scientifically and medically weak) opinions are wrong.>> Just me. Others?- Bill, 75, AS

January 6, 2008

Janet, thanks for your reply! Here are a few that are hard for me to pick up on accurately: (1) I am talking about something, and the other person abruptly changes the subject. Are there non-verbal signals I should be interpreting to know which of several things it could be? 1A. The person does not want to talk about that subject right now. 1B The person never wants to talk about that subjecr (OK, I exaggerate!) 1C. That honestly reminded him or her of what the new subject is, but I missed the connection. 1D. The person really wanted to change the subject to something (s)he had been waiting to

tell me-- that's all! Nothing any deeper. 1E. Spread-it-around- Sue just walked within earshot, and the person is letting me knw to chill for five minutes, till she wanders away, out of earshot, once again. 1F. None of the above. Note that each of the above could have several sub-headings. Feel free to comment on any of them. (2) Someone is offended at something (either that I did or said or failed to do or failed to say, or at someone else). How can I read offence in a face? How can I tell if it is directed at me? (3) Someone is hurt, and I indicate that I am sorry (I know that this situation was not about me,

because I have some idea what it was). How do I know the difference between 3A I do not want to discuss this with you at all 3B I just feel awful, but apprecaite your efforts to encourage/ comfort/ etc. 3C I do not want to talk about this in a place that is too public 3D I do want to talk about this, but you just said th4e completely wrong thing! 3E None of the above. (4) I have just learned to read happy, sad, and (I believe) angry/ frustrated from eyes alone. tell me if this is correct: All are relative to the same person. 4A. Clear/lighter,

shiny/reflective==Happy/ contented 4B Glazed over/darker, non-reflective/more opeque==sad/ downcast 4C Darker, flashing/reflective== is this anger? 4D. Clear/lighter, non-reflective ===?? I am not sure what this would mean. I have seen A and B, and I am now comfortable in reading this (a few months ago, I wasn't). 5. I have just made a statement that was pretty clear, but the other person does not react. Then, something happens to distract him or her, and I would love to know how he or she took it. What face or body language would I see for each of these reactions? What are a few of the many other ways he or she could have taken it? 5A. I am fine with it, but just distracted. 5B. You said something wrong. 5C. You did not say something you should have. 5D. I am completely confused- what on earth do you mean? (And, maybe I am not comfortable in asking you what you meant.) 5E. I am incredibly offended right now, but you did not do it. 5F. I am incredibly offended at something you did days ago. I have no problem with your communication today, but I would love to get angry with you about it, because I am angry about last week. G. Other. I will send more later- there are so many cues I cannot interpret, I could

write volumes about them- but often, I do not even have enough detail to describe them well- I just feel ill at ease for some reaason. Thanks for any help, If you cannot help, feel free to laugh at this view of ASpergan life in the NT world! PS: I like your idea of observing a non-verbal cue, and then telling what it means. I will have to try that. it is hard, because when I do certain things, it does not mean the same thing as when others do them. I stim a bit, and do not believe that the things I do would be the same in meaning generally. I move my hands just because I am thinking, and it does not mean I am bored, for example. Janet Zimmerman

wrote: I feel like I live in a world of constant swirling cues... a sea of cues... so many I can't begin to 'read' them all... AND to make things even more daunting, I really beleive that not everyone interprets the cues the same way... I see someone with a tear on thier face, I think they are sad, when all they really have is something in thier eye. Someone sees me very quiet and subdued, almost comatose (haha) they think I am a)sleepy bored c) mad e) sick f) on drugs, when in reality, I am deeply contemplating the moment

and extremely satisfied. what kinds of social cues are you referring to? Yawns, crossed arms, ??? Snobbish behavior? Needy behavior... ? Please tell me more... Janet ZEE .

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

January 6, 2008

Janet....

I kinda noticed that too.. it does amaze me how a lot of NT's are so

focused on what others thing about them. I see all the time on

magazines, tv commercials, and just in general. People are

like, " Will he think I'm attractive? What she think I look buff

enough? " and so on.

I have found the people I ended up dating and such would most likely

not be seen as " attractive " by society's values which are placed on

physical attractiveness (they were all NTs, by the way). I

discovered the things that attracts me to someone has more to do with

her mental, emotional, and spiritual sides, than the physical side.

I talked with couples who had been married for at least 25 years and

asked all of them, " What do you appreciate most in your

spouse/partner? " Not once did I hear about anything related to

physical attractiveness. Instead, things such as forgiveness, open

communication, being supportive and appreciative of the other

partner, and other high qualities, came from their responses.

This leads me to conclude that I could be attractive to someone who

might be NT or even someone who has AS. I like my chances very much

with my future, in knowing that I'll meet someone very wonderful

later on in my life.

Ya know, everyone, I feel wonderful admitting to what I did in this

post

>

> Janet,

>

> ....

> I wish I could come over and have tea with you, or invite you

over, so that you could see someone who trusts you but still needs

major help in understanding and interpreting social situations --

someone else, that it, because you already have AS folk in your

life. Patience and clarification really go a long way toward helping

us.

>

> Recent Activity

>

> 4

> New Members

>

> Visit Your Group

> Yahoo! Health

> Fit for Life

> Getting fit is now

> easier than ever.

>

> Healthy Eating

> on Yahoo! Groups

> A place for parents

> to share their ideas.

>

> Women of Curves

> on Yahoo! Groups

> A positive group

> to discuss Curves.

>

> .

>

> ---------------------------------

> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!

Search.

>

January 6, 2008

See below...just a few ideas for you, ..

Here are a few that are hard for me to pick up on accurately:

>

> (1) I am talking about something, and the other person abruptly

changes the subject. Are there non-verbal signals I should be

interpreting to know which of several things it could be?

>

> 1A. The person does not want to talk about that subject right

now. (Could be...)

> 1B The person never wants to talk about that subjecr (OK, I

exaggerate!)

> 1C. That honestly reminded him or her of what the new subject

is, but I missed the connection. (but if the person abruptly changes

it.. I guess I don't understand here)...

> 1D. The person really wanted to change the subject to something

(s)he had been waiting to tell me-- that's all! Nothing any deeper.

(Could be as well...)

> 1E. Spread-it-around- Sue just walked within earshot, and the

person is letting me knw to chill for five minutes, till she wanders

away, out of earshot, once again. (Could be..)

>

> 1F. None of the above.

** 1 - From a non-verbal standpoint, I could see that the person

might feel defensive, (a) if arms are crossed, ( no smile on face,

suggested, but also depends on the situation that is occuring at the

time when the subject is changed.

> (2) Someone is offended at something (either that I did or said

or failed to do or failed to say, or at someone else). How can I

read offence in a face? How can I tell if it is directed at me?

** If you offended me, I would not have a smile on my face.

Depending on how offensive it was, I might have my arms crossed, not

look at you directly, or may just not say anything to you (even if

you were to continue saying things to me and wondered why I wasn't

saying anything in return). I might decide also to minimize further

conversation with you until I felt ready to tell you what you did to

upset me. I won't go off like a " quick firecracker " whatsoever.

A situation like this occured just last week, when this one person

who had ADD/Asperger's was on a city bus, sitting next to me. After

being happy in finally meeting her, what did she do? Go around

blabbing how I had Asperger's and ADHD so other people who were total

strangers could be in an earshot of it. I very much didn't want to

talk to her after she was done letting my personal life be known to

everyone. However, I chose to keep conversation to a minimum with

her. One of the things I will do with anyone who offends me is wait

until after I have " cooled off " mentally before I am in a good frame

of mind to talk with that person about what he/she did to offend me.

> (3) Someone is hurt, and I indicate that I am sorry (I know that

this situation was not about me, because I have some idea what it

was). How do I know the difference between

>

> 3A I do not want to discuss this with you at all

> 3B I just feel awful, but apprecaite your efforts to encourage/

comfort/ etc.

> 3C I do not want to talk about this in a place that is too public

> 3D I do want to talk about this, but you just said th4e

completely wrong thing!

> 3E None of the above.

** First of all, hurt in what way that made you say you were sorry?

Was the person offended at you? Did something happen to that

person's relative or another person? Did that person lose property

due to a natural disaster? Could be any number of things.

Next, people will react to adversity in various ways. Might be as in

(3A), the person doesn't feel like discussing it with you. You must

respect the " space " for which a person is going through hurt. That

person may decide he/she doesn't want to share it with you. That's

like that one person telling people on a city bus that I have

Asperger's/ADHD. Likewise, a person may simply not want to tell you

about his/her situation.

Might be as in (3B), where the other person acknowledges that you

have compassion, maybe empathy, for their situation. The other

person admits to how he/she feels but appreciates your thinking of

him/her. I did this when I didn't feel like openly sharing with

anyone I had Asperger's/ADHD. Again, respect the other's

person's " space " .

Might be as in (3C), which is like (3A) in some respects. Again, I

wasn't about to talk with that one person on the city bus that I had

Asperger's.. it was too public of a place.

I don't know of anyone who has said what you mentioned in (3D) to

me. If I don't want to talk about something with you, I'll just

say, " I don't want to talk about this.. please let me have

my 'space' " . If you don't respect my " space " , be assured that I may

be less likely to talk to you in the future.

> (4) I have just learned to read happy, sad, and (I believe)

angry/ frustrated from eyes alone. tell me if this is correct: All

are relative to the same person.

>

> 4A. Clear/lighter, shiny/reflective==Happy/ contented

(not necessarily, I would think of someone feeling more

philosophical than anything - deep in thought)

> 4B Glazed over/darker, non-reflective/more opeque==sad/ downcast

(could be someone who had a " little too much " booze)

> 4C Darker, flashing/reflective== is this anger?

(eye balls bulging, blood vessels popping)

> 4D. Clear/lighter, non-reflective ===?? I am not sure what this

would mean.

(I would put happy/contented here)

January 10, 2008

so much to say here.. I like your comparison to matching pitch... we can't explain how we do it, we just do it. (or not, we do have that choice). I am thinking that you will be making the progress that you want as you are making the effort. My husband does not see any reason to make any effort, he is just happy to be who he is and do what he does. If I told him I would leave him unless he tried harder, I think he would try but at this point in our relationship , I don't know that it is worth the effort. And I really don't desire to have that kind of control, influence, whatever , over someone else. I sense that you are PAYING ATTENTION which is the major shortcoming in my relationship.. he doesn't seem to have any interest or take a hint. We are eating dinner in silence . Gobble gobble. "what did you work on today, honey/". Replied with a short dismissive sentence. More gobbling. I look at him expectantly.... nothing. more silence. We are listening to the radio, with election coverage. I make a comment about Hillary C. No response. I make one about McCain, gobble gobble. after a while I ask what he is thinking. He says he is thinking about what he has to do. period. talk about ignring cues... so I think about who I can call for a chat after dinner was over... this is my life... Hey I had an idea per our conversation... How about an interactive board game to practice identifying the cues? Is this too simplistic or do you think it might raise some awareness? Life can be so complex.. what if the hokey-pokey is what it's all about ? jkz - snorking.Janet, I feel your frustration, and am delighted that you care enough to even be frustrated at trying to explain something that is tricky to even know how to put into words. I am not pleased that you are frustrated, do not get me worong- just that through this, you were willing to try. Thank you. I do similies all the time, and analogies, and more. I love your SNORK SNORK! I get silly all the time on this list, and then hit the "cancel" key before I send it- I feel freer to let myself go. Your answer explains a lot to me, and did have some practical things in it. When I am reading flirtatious behavior, I tend to tekk because i feel flirtatious. I have read that this is how an NT would tell. In the sea of emotions that are out there, I guess that flirtatious feelings are an "island of strength" for me. on the other hand, I have only recently learned to describe the differences betweed fear, anger, surprise, and confusion- and perhaps, I can pick up hybrids of these feelings- when I see soemone whom I think is angry, I have felt fear so much that I am trying to learn to feel anger with him or her, as I would if I empathize, and not feel fear, as i would if I just blindly assume that hte anger is directed at me for some faux pas I have conmmitted. I guess your post showed me another flaw in my practical implementation of feelings, and it is helping me correct my errors. Thanks again! As for changing the subject without warning, I know how to ask about that, and I am bold if someone does not think I am quick-witted, but I have often been the guilty party here. I only learned a little over a year ago, from a friend who unsuccessfully at the time-- but it helped later-- tried to convince me I am AS. She is a special ed teacher who used to work at the same school with me. She gave me some literature, and there was a cool exercise for AS folk about following the lead of others, and not bringing up a subject out of the blue- very helpful for me. I still stayed in denial for about 7 or 8 more months. : ~ ) Hay, quit snorking! I heard that! : ~ ) I love it when I can track someone's thoughts, but these times are still comparatively rare. Here is an analoby (but you probably know this already), which I found in Maxine Aston's book, Aspergers in Love: Imagine that you lived among a people who were telepathic, and that you were just as you are now. Imagine that others did not know that you did not "read minds", and you did not know that they did. Human interaction would be hard for you in that culture, because nobody would need to say much of anything, or even gesture, but everyone would get the communication-- except you. Your friends and acquaintances would have as hard a time explaining to you as you currently have explaining to us AS folk-- harder, because you know that we do not get non-verbal cues well, but they would not even know this about you. That is how it is for NT and AS who know nothing about AS. I completely get that you understand social cues so well that you cannot even explain them to me, at times, and respect you-- admire you- that you have this gift. I am like that with certain things- I can tell the pitch of a note, and sing along with it, without thinking- and could not tell anyone else how to do it. (Well, I can- I would say that I just see what color that note is, and sing the same color note, or one that harmonizes- like that w ould tell anyone?) I am glad that you try to slow down when you talk. If you exaggerate your facial expression a bit, and hold the expression till he looks up, I wonder if he would correlate it with your words and tone of voice? I sure would. I get tones of voice pretty well. We all have problems reading cues, but for you, that is the exception, and for me, for now, that is the rule. Still, I am happy that you have reached out to me, to try to feel what it is like. (Sending a heartfelt smile and a hug back your way.) Your answers of what to do in conversation make sense to me now, and it makes sense to me why I never understood them this way. I will appreciate NT replies to things I feel strongly about more in the future, knowing that these "feeling" replies mean acceptance, as opposed to judgement. You have given me a lot, here. As for repeating a speaker's words, I tend to do that as a fallback position, and it does tend to net me more information. Is that ever the wrong thing to do, as in annoying the other person? Thanks, (who does play "hot potato", but would probably lose if I played it with feelings! ) Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote:I feel frustrated for you... and me.. I just don't think there is one pat answer to this question. ?I know sometimes I 'move too fast' for my husband when I talk.. I change the subject which seems perfectly logical to me but he gets left behind and then annoyed (me too) because he thinks I changed the subject without warning. ?He doesn't seem to be able to 'track ' my thoughts. ?I don't have this problem with other people, so I know it is him. ?Now I try to be more careful, talk slower and 'listen' to myself more when I talk to him. ?I think we are doing better.?I think any of your answers below could be correct at any time... just can't tell you exactly when! :-) ? ? Every situation is different, happens quickly and you can't have a do-over! ?all of the situations you mention here are legitimate and could be true on many occasions. ... and now I feel like I am at a real disadvantage because I so totally cannot advise you... I am never in my head like this to try to assess social situations... I don't look at people and think light, dark, shiny etc. ?I think my system would totally melt down if I tried to do so... It seems like trying to second guess so much in situations that could be very tricky. ? My style would probrably be to be verbal... just ask... "have I offended you" ? "is this a bad time" ?" I feel bad.." ?"I'm not ready to talk about his now" ?"what's going on with you" ?"can I help" ? 'Are you ok/" ? We all have problems reading cues.... some of us are more adept than others. ??I think what I do(see above) ?is more of a mirroring process... like something I feel on my skin rather than analyze with actual thoughts. ?Like standing too close to a heater and your body just moves you away. I don't think," Hmm, that is really hot. I think the temperature might burn my skin or perhaps curl the hairs on my arm OR melt my shirt. ?shall I be moving one inch away or maybe six inches... i know , I will split the difference and wait five minutes and do it again if I need to. alright, I solved that problem, it's time to move now. " ? I just move without thinking. ?I respond to cues without knowing it. ?I don't know that my brain is really engaged in a conscious way. ? I hope I am not being too silly. ?I dont mean to be but I am definately feeling the limitations of trying to communicate my thoughts about this on a key pad!!! ? snork snork. ?Now that was silly. ?sorry. ?Must get back on track... see, I gave myself a cue!?It seems to me that with my AS husband (the only as person I really have face-to face interaction with ) doesn't really look at people to see cues. ?He comes across as being uninterested or even worse, judgemental or disapproving because he does not react. ? He really is not paying attention or interested and it keeps him from having very deep interactions with people. ?He is fine with it, but never gets very deep with people like I do. ?Most people simply want to be acknowledged or 'heard'. ?you don't really have to do anything but indicate that you are hearing what they say. ?sometimes repeating their words back to them is all it takes. ?"I have this great idea... blah blah blah...." ?answer "I can tell you are pretty excited about your idea" ? ?NOT a judgement on the idea itself"that *___* really *___* me off!" ?answer "this has you really worked up" ? ?N OT a solution or advice about the person's state.?I'm thinking that for me, it is kind of like a hot potato - as soon as it comes to me I hand it back rather than holding it and wondering what do I do now? ? there I go with a simile... do you do similies? ?. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

January 10, 2008

so much to say here.. I like your comparison to matching pitch... we can't explain how we do it, we just do it. (or not, we do have that choice). I am thinking that you will be making the progress that you want as you are making the effort. My husband does not see any reason to make any effort, he is just happy to be who he is and do what he does. If I told him I would leave him unless he tried harder, I think he would try but at this point in our relationship , I don't know that it is worth the effort. And I really don't desire to have that kind of control, influence, whatever , over someone else. I sense that you are PAYING ATTENTION which is the major shortcoming in my relationship.. he doesn't seem to have any interest or take a hint. We are eating dinner in silence . Gobble gobble. "what did you work on today, honey/". Replied with a short dismissive sentence. More gobbling. I look at him expectantly.... nothing. more silence. We are listening to the radio, with election coverage. I make a comment about Hillary C. No response. I make one about McCain, gobble gobble. after a while I ask what he is thinking. He says he is thinking about what he has to do. period. talk about ignring cues... so I think about who I can call for a chat after dinner was over... this is my life... Hey I had an idea per our conversation... How about an interactive board game to practice identifying the cues? Is this too simplistic or do you think it might raise some awareness? Life can be so complex.. what if the hokey-pokey is what it's all about ? jkz - snorking.Janet, I feel your frustration, and am delighted that you care enough to even be frustrated at trying to explain something that is tricky to even know how to put into words. I am not pleased that you are frustrated, do not get me worong- just that through this, you were willing to try. Thank you. I do similies all the time, and analogies, and more. I love your SNORK SNORK! I get silly all the time on this list, and then hit the "cancel" key before I send it- I feel freer to let myself go. Your answer explains a lot to me, and did have some practical things in it. When I am reading flirtatious behavior, I tend to tekk because i feel flirtatious. I have read that this is how an NT would tell. In the sea of emotions that are out there, I guess that flirtatious feelings are an "island of strength" for me. on the other hand, I have only recently learned to describe the differences betweed fear, anger, surprise, and confusion- and perhaps, I can pick up hybrids of these feelings- when I see soemone whom I think is angry, I have felt fear so much that I am trying to learn to feel anger with him or her, as I would if I empathize, and not feel fear, as i would if I just blindly assume that hte anger is directed at me for some faux pas I have conmmitted. I guess your post showed me another flaw in my practical implementation of feelings, and it is helping me correct my errors. Thanks again! As for changing the subject without warning, I know how to ask about that, and I am bold if someone does not think I am quick-witted, but I have often been the guilty party here. I only learned a little over a year ago, from a friend who unsuccessfully at the time-- but it helped later-- tried to convince me I am AS. She is a special ed teacher who used to work at the same school with me. She gave me some literature, and there was a cool exercise for AS folk about following the lead of others, and not bringing up a subject out of the blue- very helpful for me. I still stayed in denial for about 7 or 8 more months. : ~ ) Hay, quit snorking! I heard that! : ~ ) I love it when I can track someone's thoughts, but these times are still comparatively rare. Here is an analoby (but you probably know this already), which I found in Maxine Aston's book, Aspergers in Love: Imagine that you lived among a people who were telepathic, and that you were just as you are now. Imagine that others did not know that you did not "read minds", and you did not know that they did. Human interaction would be hard for you in that culture, because nobody would need to say much of anything, or even gesture, but everyone would get the communication-- except you. Your friends and acquaintances would have as hard a time explaining to you as you currently have explaining to us AS folk-- harder, because you know that we do not get non-verbal cues well, but they would not even know this about you. That is how it is for NT and AS who know nothing about AS. I completely get that you understand social cues so well that you cannot even explain them to me, at times, and respect you-- admire you- that you have this gift. I am like that with certain things- I can tell the pitch of a note, and sing along with it, without thinking- and could not tell anyone else how to do it. (Well, I can- I would say that I just see what color that note is, and sing the same color note, or one that harmonizes- like that w ould tell anyone?) I am glad that you try to slow down when you talk. If you exaggerate your facial expression a bit, and hold the expression till he looks up, I wonder if he would correlate it with your words and tone of voice? I sure would. I get tones of voice pretty well. We all have problems reading cues, but for you, that is the exception, and for me, for now, that is the rule. Still, I am happy that you have reached out to me, to try to feel what it is like. (Sending a heartfelt smile and a hug back your way.) Your answers of what to do in conversation make sense to me now, and it makes sense to me why I never understood them this way. I will appreciate NT replies to things I feel strongly about more in the future, knowing that these "feeling" replies mean acceptance, as opposed to judgement. You have given me a lot, here. As for repeating a speaker's words, I tend to do that as a fallback position, and it does tend to net me more information. Is that ever the wrong thing to do, as in annoying the other person? Thanks, (who does play "hot potato", but would probably lose if I played it with feelings! ) Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote:I feel frustrated for you... and me.. I just don't think there is one pat answer to this question. ?I know sometimes I 'move too fast' for my husband when I talk.. I change the subject which seems perfectly logical to me but he gets left behind and then annoyed (me too) because he thinks I changed the subject without warning. ?He doesn't seem to be able to 'track ' my thoughts. ?I don't have this problem with other people, so I know it is him. ?Now I try to be more careful, talk slower and 'listen' to myself more when I talk to him. ?I think we are doing better.?I think any of your answers below could be correct at any time... just can't tell you exactly when! :-) ? ? Every situation is different, happens quickly and you can't have a do-over! ?all of the situations you mention here are legitimate and could be true on many occasions. ... and now I feel like I am at a real disadvantage because I so totally cannot advise you... I am never in my head like this to try to assess social situations... I don't look at people and think light, dark, shiny etc. ?I think my system would totally melt down if I tried to do so... It seems like trying to second guess so much in situations that could be very tricky. ? My style would probrably be to be verbal... just ask... "have I offended you" ? "is this a bad time" ?" I feel bad.." ?"I'm not ready to talk about his now" ?"what's going on with you" ?"can I help" ? 'Are you ok/" ? We all have problems reading cues.... some of us are more adept than others. ??I think what I do(see above) ?is more of a mirroring process... like something I feel on my skin rather than analyze with actual thoughts. ?Like standing too close to a heater and your body just moves you away. I don't think," Hmm, that is really hot. I think the temperature might burn my skin or perhaps curl the hairs on my arm OR melt my shirt. ?shall I be moving one inch away or maybe six inches... i know , I will split the difference and wait five minutes and do it again if I need to. alright, I solved that problem, it's time to move now. " ? I just move without thinking. ?I respond to cues without knowing it. ?I don't know that my brain is really engaged in a conscious way. ? I hope I am not being too silly. ?I dont mean to be but I am definately feeling the limitations of trying to communicate my thoughts about this on a key pad!!! ? snork snork. ?Now that was silly. ?sorry. ?Must get back on track... see, I gave myself a cue!?It seems to me that with my AS husband (the only as person I really have face-to face interaction with ) doesn't really look at people to see cues. ?He comes across as being uninterested or even worse, judgemental or disapproving because he does not react. ? He really is not paying attention or interested and it keeps him from having very deep interactions with people. ?He is fine with it, but never gets very deep with people like I do. ?Most people simply want to be acknowledged or 'heard'. ?you don't really have to do anything but indicate that you are hearing what they say. ?sometimes repeating their words back to them is all it takes. ?"I have this great idea... blah blah blah...." ?answer "I can tell you are pretty excited about your idea" ? ?NOT a judgement on the idea itself"that *___* really *___* me off!" ?answer "this has you really worked up" ? ?N OT a solution or advice about the person's state.?I'm thinking that for me, it is kind of like a hot potato - as soon as it comes to me I hand it back rather than holding it and wondering what do I do now? ? there I go with a simile... do you do similies? ?. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

January 10, 2008

Janet, That must feel awful, sitting in silence, like trying to get a conversation going with a wall. I can just feel along with you the sense of wondering who you can call for a conversation! I am paying attention, for sure. For the first time in my life, I have some idea that there is something there to pay attention to, and that it can be learned- even by me! Thanks for all your encouragement. I love your idea of a board game. there is one called the Ungame that was on the market, but it is not the same thing at all. When you land in verious places, you share things in certain categories. I suppose that one could do that with feelings, and identifying them, but when ASpies play each other, it would be the badly near-sighted leading the blind- we need a computer

simlation, or cards, or something. I would go out and get one, for sure! Janet Zimmerman wrote: so much to say here.. I like your comparison to matching pitch... we can't explain how we do it, we just do it. (or not, we do have that choice). I am thinking that you will be making the progress that you want as you are making the effort. My husband does

not see any reason to make any effort, he is just happy to be who he is and do what he does. If I told him I would leave him unless he tried harder, I think he would try but at this point in our relationship , I don't know that it is worth the effort. And I really don't desire to have that kind of control, influence, whatever , over someone else. I sense that you are PAYING ATTENTION which is the major shortcoming in my relationship.. he doesn't seem to have any interest or take a hint. We are eating dinner in silence . Gobble gobble. "what did you work on today, honey/". Replied with a short dismissive sentence. More gobbling. I look at him expectantly.... nothing. more silence. We are listening to the radio, with election coverage. I make a comment about Hillary C. No response. I make one about McCain, gobble gobble.

after a while I ask what he is thinking. He says he is thinking about what he has to do. period. talk about ignring cues... so I think about who I can call for a chat after dinner was over... this is my life... Hey I had an idea per our conversation... How about an interactive board game to practice identifying the cues? Is this too simplistic or do you think it might raise some awareness? Life can be so complex.. what if the hokey-pokey is what it's all about ? jkz - snorking. Janet, I feel your frustration, and am delighted that you care enough to even be frustrated at trying to explain something that is tricky to even know how to put into words. I am not pleased that you are frustrated, do not get me worong- just that through this, you were willing to try. Thank you. I do similies all the time, and analogies, and more. I love your SNORK SNORK! I get silly all the time on this list, and then hit the "cancel" key before I send it- I feel freer to let myself go. Your answer explains a lot to me, and did have some practical things in it. When I am reading

flirtatious behavior, I tend to tekk because i feel flirtatious. I have read that this is how an NT would tell. In the sea of emotions that are out there, I guess that flirtatious feelings are an "island of strength" for me. on the other hand, I have only recently learned to describe the differences betweed fear, anger, surprise, and confusion- and perhaps, I can pick up hybrids of these feelings- when I see soemone whom I think is angry, I have felt fear so much that I am trying to learn to feel anger with him or her, as I would if I empathize, and not feel fear, as i would if I just blindly assume that hte anger is directed at me for some faux pas I have conmmitted. I guess your post showed me another flaw in my practical implementation of feelings, and it is helping me correct my errors. Thanks again! As for changing the subject without warning, I know

how to ask about that, and I am bold if someone does not think I am quick-witted, but I have often been the guilty party here. I only learned a little over a year ago, from a friend who unsuccessfully at the time-- but it helped later-- tried to convince me I am AS. She is a special ed teacher who used to work at the same school with me. She gave me some literature, and there was a cool exercise for AS folk about following the lead of others, and not bringing up a subject out of the blue- very helpful for me. I still stayed in denial for about 7 or 8 more months. : ~ ) Hay, quit snorking! I heard that! : ~ ) I love it when I can track someone's thoughts, but these times are still comparatively rare. Here is an analoby (but you probably know this already),

which I found in Maxine Aston's book, Aspergers in Love: Imagine that you lived among a people who were telepathic, and that you were just as you are now. Imagine that others did not know that you did not "read minds", and you did not know that they did. Human interaction would be hard for you in that culture, because nobody would need to say much of anything, or even gesture, but everyone would get the communication-- except you. Your friends and acquaintances would have as hard a time explaining to you as you currently have explaining to us AS folk-- harder, because you know that we do not get non-verbal cues well, but they would not even know this about you. That is how it is for NT and AS who know nothing about AS. I completely get that you understand social cues so well that you cannot

even explain them to me, at times, and respect you-- admire you- that you have this gift. I am like that with certain things- I can tell the pitch of a note, and sing along with it, without thinking- and could not tell anyone else how to do it. (Well, I can- I would say that I just see what color that note is, and sing the same color note, or one that harmonizes- like that w ould tell anyone?) I am glad that you try to slow down when you talk. If you exaggerate your facial expression a bit, and hold the expression till he looks up, I wonder if he would correlate it with your words and tone of voice? I sure would. I get tones of voice pretty well. We all have problems reading cues, but for you, that is the exception, and for me, for now, that is the rule. Still, I am happy that you have reached out

to me, to try to feel what it is like. (Sending a heartfelt smile and a hug back your way.) Your answers of what to do in conversation make sense to me now, and it makes sense to me why I never understood them this way. I will appreciate NT replies to things I feel strongly about more in the future, knowing that these "feeling" replies mean acceptance, as opposed to judgement. You have given me a lot, here. As for repeating a speaker's words, I tend to do that as a fallback position, and it does tend to net me more information. Is that ever the wrong thing to do, as in annoying the other person? Thanks, (who does play "hot potato", but would probably lose if I played it with feelings! ) Janet Zimmerman <jkzmailTSSMT (DOT) NET> wrote: I feel frustrated for you... and me.. I just don't think there is one pat answer to this question. ?I know sometimes I 'move too fast' for my husband when I talk.. I change the subject which seems perfectly logical to me but he gets left behind and then annoyed (me too) because he thinks I changed the subject without warning. ?He doesn't seem to be able to 'track ' my thoughts. ?I don't have this problem with other people, so I know it is him. ?Now I try to be more careful, talk slower and 'listen' to myself more when I talk to him. ?I think we are doing better.? I think any of your

answers below could be correct at any time... just can't tell you exactly when! :-) ? ? Every situation is different, happens quickly and you can't have a do-over! ? all of the situations you mention here are legitimate and could be true on many occasions. ... and now I feel like I am at a real disadvantage because I so totally cannot advise you... I am never in my head like this to try to assess social situations... I don't look at people and think light, dark, shiny etc. ?I think my system would totally melt down if I tried to do so... It seems like trying to second guess so much in situations that could be very tricky. ? My style would probrably be to be verbal... just ask... "have I offended you" ? "is this a bad time" ?" I feel bad.." ?"I'm not ready to talk about his now" ?"what's going on with you" ?"can I help" ? 'Are you ok/" ? We all have problems reading cues.... some of us are more adept than

others. ?? I think what I do(see above) ?is more of a mirroring process... like something I feel on my skin rather than analyze with actual thoughts. ?Like standing too close to a heater and your body just moves you away. I don't think," Hmm, that is really hot. I think the temperature might burn my skin or perhaps curl the hairs on my arm OR melt my shirt. ?shall I be moving one inch away or maybe six inches... i know , I will split the difference and wait five minutes and do it again if I need to. alright, I solved that problem, it's time to move now. " ? I just move without thinking. ?I respond to cues without knowing it. ?I don't know that my brain is really engaged in a conscious way. ? I hope I am not being too silly. ?I dont mean to be but I am definately feeling the limitations of trying to communicate my thoughts about this on a key pad!!! ? snork snork. ?Now that was silly. ?sorry. ?Must get back on

track... see, I gave myself a cue!? It seems to me that with my AS husband (the only as person I really have face-to face interaction with ) doesn't really look at people to see cues. ?He comes across as being uninterested or even worse, judgemental or disapproving because he does not react. ? He really is not paying attention or interested and it keeps him from having very deep interactions with people. ?He is fine with it, but never gets very deep with people like I do. ? Most people simply want to be acknowledged or 'heard'. ?you don't really have to do anything but indicate that you are hearing what they say. ?sometimes repeating their words back to them is all it takes. ? "I have this great idea... blah blah blah...." ?answer "I can tell you are pretty excited about your idea" ? ?NOT a

judgement on the idea itself "that *___* really *___* me off!" ?answer "this has you really worked up" ? ?N OT a solution or advice about the person's state.? I'm thinking that for me, it is kind of like a hot potato - as soon as it comes to me I hand it back rather than holding it and wondering what do I do now? ? there I go with a simile... do you do similies? ? . Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

January 10, 2008