Re: The Point Gets Lost Sometimes (was Trust the NT)

[Guest guest]

Sometimes the point doesn't get lost it just sort of morphs or evolves. I have a bad habit of going off in another direction and not changing the subject line!

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote: The point of the "Trust the NT" thread was to shake up the notion that the NT spouse of someone with Asperger's isn't the one to be listened to on matters that many would consider a: DUH.In the almost 9 months since my husband's diagnosis, I've come to learn many things...from counselors, some from this list, some from books, some from my husband finally talking a bit more about what was going on inside his head. me here: it doesnt change, replace was with is. you said: I don't think I'm alone in concluding that in certain areas the AS spouse is just going to have to give the NT spouse cart blanche in terms of doing certain things. (Things like hygiene, dentists, wearing torn or tattered clothing, how to navigate social situations and similar areas of living.) Our understanding of rote learning has no meaning if the NT spouse is excluded from that learning process. me here: the appearance may be difficult to accept, but you will be excluded , passively and directly because , simply you are not AS. You , like many can try and describe the observed behaviours, probably relieved that you have a name for this ...now. But dont peronalise the exclusion. While it may be difficult to accept, the

consequences of not accepting it may cause further difficulties. you said: I am speaking of marriages where Asperger's is trying to be incorporated and worked into the marriage rather than fought over and perhaps causing the dissolution of the marriage.It is possible being told to shower,buy gifts for certain occasions, see the dentist or dispose of old, worn or inappropriate clothing will cause an emotional reaction in the partner with AS. I consider that the therapeutic part of the process. If both partners just go do what they feel like doing so it causes no discomfort, it is not therapeutic and it isn't acknowledging that the strain on the marriage has neurological roots with perhaps years of maladaptive behaviors. me here: i am at ease with my fiancee, we both acknowledge we can both be ourselves within each others company. it is a strain not beared or suffered by

me or my partner. you said:It has been said here and many other places that AS "develop" behaviors over their lifetimes to cope with day to day living. Since the behaviors are developed by AS, they were also developed because of AS and are probably rooted in AS processing. I don't think we can avoid that as an issue. me here: your wrong here. yes we develop coping strategies and mechanisms of behaviour, we tend to rote learn this. copy, watch, learn. the problems are, in my opinion due to the behaviours learned, and how these behaviours are forced upon us to cope. these behaviours which are unnatural to us are a forced adaptation that we dont like. AS isnt the problem, it is the maladaptive behaviours learned and also, the tendency for AS to resist this forced behaviour in an environment

we are familiar with, our homes. remember normal for AS is...AS. this isnt normal for you. you said:I'll go out on a limb and say many of the NT's who come to this forum are here because they know what the problem is and are hopeful for some solutions (to greater or lesser degrees based on where their spouse is on the spectrum.) me here; no......most people on and off this list are unable to identify the problems, the real problems in their relationship...they apply solutions without identifying the problem, this approach is.....problematic..with some, the problems in the relationship are closer to them than they think. you said:In my relationship (with the help of counselors) the very first (and biggest) problem we were given to tackle is attempting to determine how many ill-acquired coping behaviors can be changed or

modified to be more relationship friendly. me here: yes who defined these problems, and was there a bilateral agreement that these were the problems? seems that one of you needs to do a lot of changing with this approach. perhaps there should be two people trying. rather than one change and another forcing change without also accepting that change may be needed in their own outlook and expectations of what normal is. you said: Adults with AS spend years and years mimicking other people's behaviors. There is no way for AS know if they've been mimicking good behavior of other people, nor is there a way for AS to know if the behavior they are mimicking is appropriately placed in any given situation. Unless of course, their spouse is getting angry at them for placing certain behaviors inappropriately. me here: replace angry with

understanding and you can effect a better change if you wish. you said: It looks (and feels) very much like "dart board" interaction to both people in the marriage. The "Trust the NT" post was an attempt to flesh out the potential for the AS partner in a marriage to mimic the social behavior of their NT partner. If the NT partner buys the AS partner something for their birthday, the AS partner reciprocates. If the NT partner showers daily, the AS partner doesn't fuss over the concept of showering. If the NT partner hugs their child and asks about their day when she/he walks through the door, the AS partner does the same. If the hug or closeness creates a problem, the problem is discussed and some other form of greeting that feels intimate to everyone is adapted. me here: seems like a lot of NT correction is going on here. lets make a good

functioning NT out of this one. rejection of this forced behaviour would be a typical AS response......complete rejection would be more usual. you said: These are things that should be possible to greater or lesser degrees. me here: change possible to probable. everything is possible as possible as it is impossible. i.e it is an open ended concept that has little value when determining the true probability of determining an outcome, once assigned a probability may give a truer and more realistic value to your expectations...or lack off. you said: If some of this turns out to be very difficult for the AS partner, then the "therapy" would be to attempt to determine the reason for the resistance and then further attempt to allay fear, perhaps by slowing down integrating newer and more

relationship friendly behaviors into the marriage. At some point in dismantling old and relationship unfriendly behaviors the AS partner will reach the place where they are getting much better relationship outcomes most of the time and be left with what our therapist calls "raw AS." (Purely neurological AS, uncomplicated by a deep and wide set of maladaptive, self and marital exclusionary behaviors.) me here: this last paragraph is an agreed truth. it is good advice, a good approach. you said:I think the really condensed message in my Trust post and this one is......AS insisting on maintaining old habits and coping mechanisms in a failing relationship is not an option if the goal is to keep the marriage together. If there is no motivation to modify old habits and bad coping skills, then the AS partner has an obligation to inform the NT partner so informed choices

about the continuation of the marriage can be made. me here: your missing your contribution to this revolution your starting.Regards,Anita 55 NT 36 m diagnosed AS who believes that hope isnt always a good thing.

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A Smarter Inbox.

[Guest guest]

I have been married almost 4 years. I have been considering divorce

off and on. I have been trying to understand him and love him for a

long time. We have been to 3 or 4 counselors. I couldn't understand

why he can't empathize with me or other people. I couldn't

understand why he is so totally focused on some things that he

absolutely cannot be interupted. I wondered why he cannot be

spontaneous at all. I wondered why he can never initiate sex and

avoids it, and if we ever have it he is only into his own pleasure.

I wondered about certain almost child like behavior, sometimes

endearing, And he is very bright, a dentist. He has social problems

with others. His mother told me, long ago, now she won't talk to me,

as if she is protecting him, that she wished he would have gone to

counseling when he was a teenager. He answers questions in a totally

black and white (very literate) way. When I try to ask him things if

I don't phrase it with exactly the right wording, I don't get an

answer. And he avoids all types of conversations. I have been

reading your blog here. How can I get this analyzed for both of us.

I do love him and don't want to give up if there is help. But, he

totally resists " being wrong " about anything. He would think that

any analysis with a label would be a " wrong " . I am very bright also

and very loving and supportive. In fact I even used to work as a CFO

at a Center that specialized in Autism. That's what finally started

me thinking about the lack of empathy, etc. At first I thought it

was bipolar or something. He can be extremely verbally abusive, very

controlling. And please tell me again what the article was that

talked about AS and NT. Thanks. Sandy

>

> The point of the " Trust the NT " thread was to shake up the notion

that

> the NT spouse of someone with Asperger's isn't the one to be

listened to

> on matters that many would consider a: DUH.

>

> In the almost 9 months since my husband's diagnosis, I've come to

learn

> many things...from counselors, some from this list, some from books,

> some from my husband finally talking a bit more about what was

going on

> inside his head.

>

> I don't think I'm alone in concluding that in certain areas the AS

> spouse is just going to have to give the NT spouse cart blanche in

terms

> of doing certain things. (Things like hygiene, dentists, wearing

torn

> or tattered clothing, how to navigate social situations and similar

> areas of living.) Our understanding of rote learning has no

meaning if

> the NT spouse is excluded from that learning process. I am

speaking of

> marriages where Asperger's is trying to be incorporated and worked

into

> the marriage rather than fought over and perhaps causing the

dissolution

> of the marriage.

>

> It is possible being told to shower,buy gifts for certain

occasions, see

> the dentist or dispose of old, worn or inappropriate clothing will

cause

> an emotional reaction in the partner with AS. I consider that the

> therapeutic part of the process. If both partners just go do what

they

> feel like doing so it causes no discomfort, it is not therapeutic

and it

> isn't acknowledging that the strain on the marriage has neurological

> roots with perhaps years of maladaptive behaviors.

>

> It has been said here and many other places that AS " develop "

behaviors

> over their lifetimes to cope with day to day living. Since the

> behaviors are developed by AS, they were also developed because of

AS

> and are probably rooted in AS processing. I don't think we can

avoid

> that as an issue.

>

> I'll go out on a limb and say many of the NT's who come to this

forum

> are here because they know what the problem is and are hopeful for

some

> solutions (to greater or lesser degrees based on where their spouse

is

> on the spectrum.)

>

> In my relationship (with the help of counselors) the very first (and

> biggest) problem we were given to tackle is attempting to determine

how

> many ill-acquired coping behaviors can be changed or modified to be

more

> relationship friendly.

>

> Adults with AS spend years and years mimicking other people's

behaviors.

> There is no way for AS know if they've been mimicking good behavior

of

> other people, nor is there a way for AS to know if the behavior

they are

> mimicking is appropriately placed in any given situation. Unless of

> course, their spouse is getting angry at them for placing certain

> behaviors inappropriately. It looks (and feels) very much

like " dart

> board " interaction to both people in the marriage.

>

> The " Trust the NT " post was an attempt to flesh out the potential

for

> the AS partner in a marriage to mimic the social behavior of their

NT

> partner. If the NT partner buys the AS partner something for their

> birthday, the AS partner reciprocates. If the NT partner showers

daily,

> the AS partner doesn't fuss over the concept of showering. If the

NT

> partner hugs their child and asks about their day when she/he walks

> through the door, the AS partner does the same. If the hug or

closeness

> creates a problem, the problem is discussed and some other form of

> greeting that feels intimate to everyone is adapted.

>

> These are things that should be possible to greater or lesser

degrees.

> If some of this turns out to be very difficult for the AS partner,

then

> the " therapy " would be to attempt to determine the reason for the

> resistance and then further attempt to allay fear, perhaps by

slowing

> down integrating newer and more relationship friendly behaviors

into the

> marriage.

>

> At some point in dismantling old and relationship unfriendly

behaviors

> the AS partner will reach the place where they are getting much

better

> relationship outcomes most of the time and be left with what our

> therapist calls " raw AS. " (Purely neurological AS, uncomplicated

by a

> deep and wide set of maladaptive, self and marital exclusionary

> behaviors.)

>

> I think the really condensed message in my Trust post and this one

> is......AS insisting on maintaining old habits and coping

mechanisms in

> a failing relationship is not an option if the goal is to keep the

> marriage together. If there is no motivation to modify old habits

and

> bad coping skills, then the AS partner has an obligation to inform

the

> NT partner so informed choices about the continuation of the

marriage

> can be made.

>

> Regards,

> Anita 55 NT

>

[Guest guest]

-And how can I add my husbands name to this blog so he can start

reading what you all are writing. He will read things and this may

help him open up his mind, especially reading from other foks with

AS. Thanks. Sandy-- In aspires-

relationships , " srabande " wrote:

>

> The point of the " Trust the NT " thread was to shake up the notion

that

> the NT spouse of someone with Asperger's isn't the one to be

listened to

> on matters that many would consider a: DUH.

>

> In the almost 9 months since my husband's diagnosis, I've come to

learn

> many things...from counselors, some from this list, some from books,

> some from my husband finally talking a bit more about what was

going on

> inside his head.

>

> I don't think I'm alone in concluding that in certain areas the AS

> spouse is just going to have to give the NT spouse cart blanche in

terms

> of doing certain things. (Things like hygiene, dentists, wearing

torn

> or tattered clothing, how to navigate social situations and similar

> areas of living.) Our understanding of rote learning has no

meaning if

> the NT spouse is excluded from that learning process. I am

speaking of

> marriages where Asperger's is trying to be incorporated and worked

into

> the marriage rather than fought over and perhaps causing the

dissolution

> of the marriage.

>

> It is possible being told to shower,buy gifts for certain

occasions, see

> the dentist or dispose of old, worn or inappropriate clothing will

cause

> an emotional reaction in the partner with AS. I consider that the

> therapeutic part of the process. If both partners just go do what

they

> feel like doing so it causes no discomfort, it is not therapeutic

and it

> isn't acknowledging that the strain on the marriage has neurological

> roots with perhaps years of maladaptive behaviors.

>

> It has been said here and many other places that AS " develop "

behaviors

> over their lifetimes to cope with day to day living. Since the

> behaviors are developed by AS, they were also developed because of

AS

> and are probably rooted in AS processing. I don't think we can

avoid

> that as an issue.

>

> I'll go out on a limb and say many of the NT's who come to this

forum

> are here because they know what the problem is and are hopeful for

some

> solutions (to greater or lesser degrees based on where their spouse

is

> on the spectrum.)

>

> In my relationship (with the help of counselors) the very first (and

> biggest) problem we were given to tackle is attempting to determine

how

> many ill-acquired coping behaviors can be changed or modified to be

more

> relationship friendly.

>

> Adults with AS spend years and years mimicking other people's

behaviors.

> There is no way for AS know if they've been mimicking good behavior

of

> other people, nor is there a way for AS to know if the behavior

they are

> mimicking is appropriately placed in any given situation. Unless of

> course, their spouse is getting angry at them for placing certain

> behaviors inappropriately. It looks (and feels) very much

like " dart

> board " interaction to both people in the marriage.

>

> The " Trust the NT " post was an attempt to flesh out the potential

for

> the AS partner in a marriage to mimic the social behavior of their

NT

> partner. If the NT partner buys the AS partner something for their

> birthday, the AS partner reciprocates. If the NT partner showers

daily,

> the AS partner doesn't fuss over the concept of showering. If the

NT

> partner hugs their child and asks about their day when she/he walks

> through the door, the AS partner does the same. If the hug or

closeness

> creates a problem, the problem is discussed and some other form of

> greeting that feels intimate to everyone is adapted.

>

> These are things that should be possible to greater or lesser

degrees.

> If some of this turns out to be very difficult for the AS partner,

then

> the " therapy " would be to attempt to determine the reason for the

> resistance and then further attempt to allay fear, perhaps by

slowing

> down integrating newer and more relationship friendly behaviors

into the

> marriage.

>

> At some point in dismantling old and relationship unfriendly

behaviors

> the AS partner will reach the place where they are getting much

better

> relationship outcomes most of the time and be left with what our

> therapist calls " raw AS. " (Purely neurological AS, uncomplicated

by a

> deep and wide set of maladaptive, self and marital exclusionary

> behaviors.)

>

> I think the really condensed message in my Trust post and this one

> is......AS insisting on maintaining old habits and coping

mechanisms in

> a failing relationship is not an option if the goal is to keep the

> marriage together. If there is no motivation to modify old habits

and

> bad coping skills, then the AS partner has an obligation to inform

the

> NT partner so informed choices about the continuation of the

marriage

> can be made.

>

> Regards,

> Anita 55 NT

>

[Guest guest]

The point of the "Trust the NT" thread was to shake up the notion that the NT spouse of someone with Asperger's isn't the one to be listened to on matters that many would consider a: DUH.> > In the almost 9 months since my husband's diagnosis, I've come to learn many things...from counselors, some from this list, some from books, some from my husband finally talking a bit more about what was going on inside his head.> > me here: it doesnt change, replace was with is.No, in many cases was. There are things that are changing since his diagnosis. He accepts much more responsibility than ever. He isn't so rigid in his thinking and he is more open to variations on themes. > you said:> > > I don't think I'm alone in concluding that in certain areas the AS spouse is just going to have to give the NT spouse cart blanche in terms of doing certain things. (Things like hygiene, dentists, wearing torn or tattered clothing, how to navigate social situations and similar areas of living.) Our understanding of rote learning has no meaning if the NT spouse is excluded from that learning process. > > me here: the appearance may be difficult to accept, but you will be excluded , passively and directly because , simply you are not AS. You , like many can try and describe the observed behaviours, probably relieved that you have a name for this ...now. But dont peronalise the exclusion. While it may be difficult to accept, the consequences of not accepting it may cause further difficulties.> He does not exclude me because he accepts that the most trustworthy person in his life is the woman working to stand by him through this process. Rather than insisting the things that always got him bad results should be continued because it makes him uncomfortable, he now asks for multiple suggestions from me and our daughter that will get him a better result. Depending on what the situation is and his ability or inability to understand something, he selects from the more family friendly options. The counselors goal is for all of us to help him develop better coping strategies than the maladaptive stuff he's been defaulting to his whole life.> you said:> I am speaking of marriages where Asperger's is trying to be incorporated and worked into the marriage rather than fought over and perhaps causing the dissolution of the marriage.> > It is possible being told to shower,buy gifts for certain occasions, see the dentist or dispose of old, worn or inappropriate clothing will cause an emotional reaction in the partner with AS. I consider that the therapeutic part of the process. If both partners just go do what they feel like doing so it causes no discomfort, it is not therapeutic and it isn't acknowledging that the strain on the marriage has neurological roots with perhaps years of maladaptive behaviors.> > me here: i am at ease with my fiancee, we both acknowledge we can both be ourselves within each others company. it is a strain not beared or suffered by me or my partner.I am delighted you have met a kindred spirit. Was she fully aware of your neurology prior to becoming your finance? Congratulations, BTW.> > you said:> > It has been said here and many other places that AS "develop" behaviors over their lifetimes to cope with day to day living. Since the behaviors are developed by AS, they were also developed because of AS and are probably rooted in AS processing. I don't think we can avoid that as an issue. > > me here:> > your wrong here.> yes we develop coping strategies and mechanisms of behaviour, we tend to rote learn this. copy, watch, learn.> the problems are, in my opinion due to the behaviours learned, and how these behaviours are forced upon us to cope.> these behaviours which are unnatural to us are a forced > adaptation that we dont like. AS isnt the problem, it is the maladaptive behaviours learned and also, the tendency for AS to resist this forced behaviour in an environment we are familiar with, our homes.> remember normal for AS is...AS. this isnt normal for you.There is no right or wrong. Only people who are very different from one another. That's why Asperger's Syndrome is a spectrum disorder. If there were right and wrong, there would be no spectrum. Having said that, the therapeutic road our family is on right now does not recognize rote behavior as a problem, but rather a solution to some things (stressing the word: some). NT's are forced to behave appropriately when it may be far more convenient to behave irresponsibly or unsociably. NT's might say they have impeccable manners when a situation commands such behavior. They may go so far as to say those behaviors are forced upon them by society as well. There are many things most people do that they don't like, but we do them anyway because our jobs go better when we do, our relationships go better, our family and friendships go better. It's not normal for me to have to get up in the morning, shower, do my hair, put on a business suit and sit in meetings most of the day. But I do it, because it's necessary to our financial survival. I've made it my "specialty" even though I would rather be doing something less stressful and demanding. AS can make their "specialty" things that are very important to marriages, relationships, work and children. Being focused on the details of things is a very useable AS trait. > > you said:> > I'll go out on a limb and say many of the NT's who come to this forum are here because they know what the problem is and are hopeful for some solutions (to greater or lesser degrees based on where their spouse is on the spectrum.)> > me here;> no......most people on and off this list are unable to identify the problems, the real problems in their relationship...they apply solutions without identifying the problem, this approach is.....problematic..with some, the problems in the relationship are closer to them than they think.>I don't agree. The foundational problem is the same for everyone here. It's Asperger's Syndrome, a neurological disorder. Beyond that, are the problems of accepting the disorder by both parties, understanding that much of the arguing and frustration between the parties arose from an inability for the NT partner to understand the reason for some very hurtful behavior on the part of the AS partner. ....and the inability of the AS partner to be able to access the reason for their own behavior. Identifying the problems becomes quite clear once a diagnosis is made.> you said:> > In my relationship (with the help of counselors) the very first (and biggest) problem we were given to tackle is attempting to determine how many ill-acquired coping behaviors can be changed or modified to be more relationship friendly.> > me here: yes who defined these problems, and was there a bilateral agreement that these were the problems?> seems that one of you needs to do a lot of changing with this approach. perhaps there should be two people trying. rather than one change and another forcing change without also accepting that change may be needed in their own outlook and expectations of what normal is.> Much light was shed on the problems by the counselor. Yes, there surely was bilateral agreement on the nature and origin of most of the problems. We're not keeping score as to who has to do the most changing. More we are talking about what we think might be the reasoning behind a given situation and trying different solutions to old problems rather than mutually repeating patterns that never worked. We are both very much out of our comfort zones and the agreed upon methodology between my husband, myself and our counselor is to take whatever fallout occurs from being out of our comfort zone back into the counselor's office and not discuss fallout with each other as a couple. We are free to feel the fallout, but not free to verbalize it to one another. It is very difficult for both of us, but we write it out in journals, then bring the journals to the counselor. Let him sort it out, that's why he gets the big bucks. :-)> you said: > > Adults with AS spend years and years mimicking other people's behaviors. There is no way for AS know if they've been mimicking good behavior of other people, nor is there a way for AS to know if the behavior they are mimicking is appropriately placed in any given situation. Unless of course, their spouse is getting angry at them for placing certain behaviors inappropriately. > > me here: replace angry with understanding and you can effect a better change if you wish.I believe you've taken the word "angry" out of context. I was attempting to make the point that AS goes through life mimicking other people's behavior and feeling quite confident they are applying the behavior correctly and appropriately, until someone gets angry with them. It is at that time they become aware that the rote behavior they've applied isn't suitable to the situation. The point was that AS is unaware rote behavior doesn't fit a situation until the situation goes sour.> > you said:> It looks (and feels) very much like "dart board" interaction to both people in the marriage. > > The "Trust the NT" post was an attempt to flesh out the potential for the AS partner in a marriage to mimic the social behavior of their NT partner. If the NT partner buys the AS partner something for their birthday, the AS partner reciprocates. If the NT partner showers daily, the AS partner doesn't fuss over the concept of showering. If the NT partner hugs their child and asks about their day when she/he walks through the door, the AS partner does the same. If the hug or closeness creates a problem, the problem is discussed and some other form of greeting that feels intimate to everyone is adapted.> > me here: seems like a lot of NT correction is going on here.> lets make a good functioning NT out of this one. rejection of this forced behaviour would be a typical AS response......complete rejection would be more usual.Perhaps for you it seems like a lot of NT correction. For those who are in relationships where the AS partner is as frustrated with their inability to interact freely within a situation and get good (or better) results, behavior modification is a valuable tool. NT's in relationships with AS are very aware that they will never make a good functioning NT of their AS spouse. However, if AS is to function within a relationship where an NT is present, or within their business community where there may be many NT's present, it is in the best interest of the AS in question to discard any rote behavior that is unproductive, doesn't get the result they desire, or causes them pain and anguish. The point is, if a fair degree of rote behavior is necessary for AS to integrate themselves with NT, the rote behavior they use should be of high quality and carefully learned.My husband is a very typical AS, he rejected everything about AS right after he was diagnosed. I am thankful it didn't take him long to realize stubborn, out of hand rejection or complete rejection would never give him the opportunity to discover the things he was capable of doing/being within himself. > > you said:> > > These are things that should be possible to greater or lesser degrees. > > me here: change possible to probable. everything is possible as possible as it is impossible. i.e it is an open ended concept that has little value when determining the true probability of determining an outcome, once assigned a probability may give a truer and more realistic value to your expectations...or lack off.My husband and I have agreed, there is no possible way either of us can determine an outcome when he has spent 60 years of his life (over 20 married to me) not knowing he had a neurological anomaly. It is unrealistic to think we can continue to live with one another without throwing all of our metaphorical dirty laundry in the washer to see what comes out somewhat clean, a bit cleaner or pure white as snow. The process must be engaged fully before either of us can discuss what is realistic or what can be expected.> > you said:> > > If some of this turns out to be very difficult for the AS partner, then the "therapy" would be to attempt to determine the reason for the resistance and then further attempt to allay fear, perhaps by slowing down integrating newer and more relationship friendly behaviors into the marriage. > > At some point in dismantling old and relationship unfriendly behaviors the AS partner will reach the place where they are getting much better relationship outcomes most of the time and be left with what our therapist calls "raw AS." (Purely neurological AS, uncomplicated by a deep and wide set of maladaptive, self and marital exclusionary behaviors.) > > me here: this last paragraph is an agreed truth. it is good advice, a good approach.> > you said:> > I think the really condensed message in my Trust post and this one is......AS insisting on maintaining old habits and coping mechanisms in a failing relationship is not an option if the goal is to keep the marriage together. If there is no motivation to modify old habits and bad coping skills, then the AS partner has an obligation to inform the NT partner so informed choices about the continuation of the marriage can be made.> > me here:> > your missing your contribution to this revolution your starting.I do not accept the word "revolution" as much as it is perhaps a "remapping" for both of us. I also sort of take issue with the reference that I am starting a revolution. My husband is right there in the forefront, leading the charge into unknown territory. My contribution is to make sure I keep my end of all the therapeutic agreements we've made to fully engage this process. One of the things that is unfortunate on this discussion list at times is the notion that the NT population here has ill intent toward those with Asperger's Syndrome. It feels like an "us against them" mentality as if our Asperger spouses are happy being AS and we're raining on their parade. My husband has spoken eloquently lately about how Asperger's has prevented him from accessing so many things NT's talk about all the time. He understands the words, but readily admits not feeling what the words mean. He now watches movies intently to see the reason the actors are angry, sad, frustrated, crying. He shakes his head now as he watches, knowing a whole series of events were part of a movie that caused someone to sob. He watches the emotion of others but cannot access how they came to feel that way on the screen. He now asks me to explain what happened in the movie, how the emotion came to be. No, this is not a revolution, it is a ~revelation~ some of which will stick with him and some will float right out of his head perhaps moments after it is explained to him. He never asked before, he's asking now. If 50% of it sticks, our marriage will be 100% better.> > Regards,> Anita 55 NT> > > 36 m diagnosed AS who believes that hope isnt always a good thing.> Regards,Anita 55 NT, who believes hope is the best thing we have to hang on to to see if we can move forward.

[Guest guest]

hooray for you and your H, Anita... you express yourself so clearly (to me) and you don't give up (Like I do, hahAHAHA )  And a hat's of to Verleen(Ithink) who brought up[ this thread again...  A SHAKE OF THE HAND TO YOU both!  JKZ HELPLESSLY HOPING The point of the "Trust the NT" thread was to shake up the notion that the NT spouse of someone with Asperger's isn't the one to be listened to on matters that many would consider a: DUH.> > In the almost 9 months since my husband's diagnosis, I've come to learn many things...from counselors, some from this list, some from books, some from my husband finally talking a bit more about what was going on inside his head.> > me here: it doesnt change, replace was with is.No, in many cases was.  There are things that are changing since his diagnosis.  He accepts much more responsibility than ever. He isn't so rigid in his thinking and he is more open to variations on themes.   > you said:> > > I don't think I'm alone in concluding that in certain areas the AS spouse is just going to have to give the NT spouse cart blanche in terms of doing certain things. (Things like hygiene, dentists, wearing torn or tattered clothing, how to navigate social situations and similar areas of living.) Our understanding of rote learning has no meaning if the NT spouse is excluded from that learning process. > > me here: the appearance may be difficult to accept, but you will be excluded , passively and directly because , simply you are not AS. You , like many can try and describe the observed behaviours, probably relieved that you have a name for this ...now. But dont peronalise the exclusion. While it may be difficult to accept, the consequences of not accepting it may cause further difficulties.> He does not exclude me because he accepts that the most trustworthy person in his life is the woman working to stand by him through this process.  Rather than insisting the things that always got him bad results should be continued because it makes him uncomfortable, he now asks for multiple suggestions from me and our daughter that will get him a better result.  Depending on what the situation is and his ability or inability to understand something, he selects from the more family friendly options.  The counselors goal is for all of us to help him develop better coping strategies than the maladaptive stuff he's been defaulting to his whole life.> you said:> I am speaking of marriages where Asperger's is trying to be incorporated and worked into the marriage rather than fought over and perhaps causing the dissolution of the marriage.> > It is possible being told to shower,buy gifts for certain occasions, see the dentist or dispose of old, worn or inappropriate clothing will cause an emotional reaction in the partner with AS. I consider that the therapeutic part of the process. If both partners just go do what they feel like doing so it causes no discomfort, it is not therapeutic and it isn't acknowledging that the strain on the marriage has neurological roots with perhaps years of maladaptive behaviors.> > me here: i am at ease with my fiancee, we both acknowledge we can both be ourselves within each others company. it is a strain not beared or suffered by me or my partner.I am delighted you have met a kindred spirit.  Was she fully aware of your neurology prior to becoming your finance?  Congratulations, BTW.> > you said:> > It has been said here and many other places that AS "develop" behaviors over their lifetimes to cope with day to day living. Since the behaviors are developed by AS, they were also developed because of AS and are probably rooted in AS processing. I don't think we can avoid that as an issue. > > me here:> > your wrong here.> yes we develop coping strategies and mechanisms of behaviour, we tend to rote learn this. copy, watch, learn.> the problems are, in my opinion due to the behaviours learned, and how these behaviours are forced upon us to cope.> these behaviours which are unnatural to us are a forced > adaptation that we dont like. AS isnt the problem, it is the maladaptive behaviours learned and also, the tendency for AS to resist this forced behaviour in an environment we are familiar with, our homes.> remember normal for AS is...AS. this isnt normal for you.There is no right or wrong.  Only people who are very different from one another.  That's why Asperger's Syndrome is a spectrum disorder.  If there were right and wrong, there would be no spectrum.  Having said that,  the therapeutic road our family is on right now does not recognize rote behavior as a problem, but rather a solution to some things (stressing the word: some).  NT's are forced to behave appropriately when it may be far more convenient to behave irresponsibly or unsociably.  NT's might say they have impeccable manners when a situation commands such behavior.  They may go so far as to say those behaviors are forced upon them by society as well.  There are many things most people do that they don't like, but we do them anyway because our jobs go better when we do, our relationships go better, our family and friendships go better.  It's not normal for me to have to get up in the morning, shower, do my hair, put on a business suit and sit in meetings most of the day.  But I do it, because it's necessary to our financial survival.  I've made it my "specialty" even though I would rather be doing something less stressful and demanding.  AS can make their "specialty" things that are very important to marriages, relationships, work and children.  Being focused on the details of things is a very useable AS trait.  > > you said:> > I'll go out on a limb and say many of the NT's who come to this forum are here because they know what the problem is and are hopeful for some solutions (to greater or lesser degrees based on where their spouse is on the spectrum.)> > me here;> no......most people on and off this list are unable to identify the problems, the real problems in their relationship...they apply solutions without identifying the problem, this approach is.....problematic..with some, the problems in the relationship are closer to them than they think.>I don't agree.  The  foundational problem is the same for everyone here.   It's Asperger's Syndrome, a neurological disorder.  Beyond that, are the problems of accepting the disorder by both parties, understanding that much of the arguing and frustration between the parties arose from an inability for the NT partner to understand the reason for some very hurtful behavior on the part of the AS partner. ....and the inability of the AS partner to be able to access the reason for their own behavior.  Identifying the problems becomes quite clear once a diagnosis is made.> you said:> > In my relationship (with the help of counselors) the very first (and biggest) problem we were given to tackle is attempting to determine how many ill-acquired coping behaviors can be changed or modified to be more relationship friendly.> > me here: yes who defined these problems, and was there a bilateral agreement that these were the problems?> seems that one of you needs to do a lot of changing with this approach. perhaps there should be two people trying. rather than one change and another forcing change without also accepting that change may be needed in their own outlook and expectations of what normal is.> Much light was shed on the problems by the counselor.  Yes, there surely was bilateral agreement on the nature and origin of most of the problems.  We're not keeping score as to who has to do the most changing.  More we are talking about what we think might be the reasoning behind a given situation and trying different solutions to old problems rather than mutually repeating patterns that never worked.  We are both very much out of our comfort zones and the agreed upon methodology between my husband, myself and our counselor is to take whatever fallout occurs from being out of our comfort zone back into the counselor's office and not discuss fallout with each other as a couple.  We are free to feel the fallout, but not free to verbalize it to one another.  It is very difficult for both of us, but we write it out in journals, then bring the journals to the counselor.  Let him sort it out, that's why he gets the big bucks.  :-)> you said: > > Adults with AS spend years and years mimicking other people's behaviors. There is no way for AS know if they've been mimicking good behavior of other people, nor is there a way for AS to know if the behavior they are mimicking is appropriately placed in any given situation. Unless of course, their spouse is getting angry at them for placing certain behaviors inappropriately. > > me here: replace angry with understanding and you can effect a better change if you wish.I believe you've taken the word "angry" out of context.  I was attempting to make the point that AS goes through life mimicking other people's behavior and feeling quite confident they are applying the behavior correctly and appropriately, until someone gets angry with them.  It is at that time they become aware that the rote behavior they've applied isn't suitable to the situation. The point was that AS is unaware rote behavior doesn't fit a situation until the situation goes sour.> > you said:> It looks (and feels) very much like "dart board" interaction to both people in the marriage. > > The "Trust the NT" post was an attempt to flesh out the potential for the AS partner in a marriage to mimic the social behavior of their NT partner. If the NT partner buys the AS partner something for their birthday, the AS partner reciprocates. If the NT partner showers daily, the AS partner doesn't fuss over the concept of showering. If the NT partner hugs their child and asks about their day when she/he walks through the door, the AS partner does the same. If the hug or closeness creates a problem, the problem is discussed and some other form of greeting that feels intimate to everyone is adapted.> > me here: seems like a lot of NT correction is going on here.> lets make a good functioning NT out of this one. rejection of this forced behaviour would be a typical AS response......complete rejection would be more usual.Perhaps for you it seems like a lot of NT correction.  For those who are in relationships where the AS partner is as frustrated with their inability to interact freely within a situation and get good (or better) results, behavior modification is a valuable tool.   NT's in relationships with AS are very aware that they will never make a good functioning NT of their AS spouse.  However, if AS is to function within a relationship where an NT is present, or within their business community where there may be many NT's present, it is in the best interest of the AS in question to discard any rote behavior that is unproductive, doesn't get the result they desire, or causes them pain and anguish.  The point is, if a fair degree of rote behavior is necessary for AS to integrate themselves with NT, the rote behavior they use should be of high quality and carefully learned.My husband is a very typical AS, he rejected everything about AS right after he was diagnosed.   I am thankful it didn't take him long to realize stubborn, out of hand rejection or complete rejection would never give him the opportunity to discover the things he was capable of doing/being within himself.  > > you said:> > > These are things that should be possible to greater or lesser degrees. > > me here: change possible to probable. everything is possible as possible as it is impossible. i.e it is an open ended concept that has little value when determining the true probability of determining an outcome, once assigned a probability may give a truer and more realistic value to your expectations...or lack off.My husband and I have agreed, there is no possible way either of us can determine an outcome when he has spent 60 years of his life (over 20 married to me) not knowing he had a neurological anomaly.  It is unrealistic to think we can continue to live with one another without throwing all of our metaphorical dirty laundry in the washer to see what comes out somewhat clean, a bit cleaner or pure white as snow.   The process must be engaged fully before either of us can discuss what is realistic or what can be expected.> > you said:> > > If some of this turns out to be very difficult for the AS partner, then the "therapy" would be to attempt to determine the reason for the resistance and then further attempt to allay fear, perhaps by slowing down integrating newer and more relationship friendly behaviors into the marriage. > > At some point in dismantling old and relationship unfriendly behaviors the AS partner will reach the place where they are getting much better relationship outcomes most of the time and be left with what our therapist calls "raw AS." (Purely neurological AS, uncomplicated by a deep and wide set of maladaptive, self and marital exclusionary behaviors.) > > me here: this last paragraph is an agreed truth. it is good advice, a good approach.> > you said:> > I think the really condensed message in my Trust post and this one is......AS insisting on maintaining old habits and coping mechanisms in a failing relationship is not an option if the goal is to keep the marriage together. If there is no motivation to modify old habits and bad coping skills, then the AS partner has an obligation to inform the NT partner so informed choices about the continuation of the marriage can be made.> > me here:> > your missing your contribution to this revolution your starting.I do not accept the word "revolution" as much as it is perhaps a "remapping" for both of us.  I also sort of take issue with the reference that I am starting a revolution.  My husband is right there in the forefront, leading the charge into unknown territory.  My contribution is to make sure I keep my end of all the therapeutic agreements we've made to fully engage this process.  One of the things that is unfortunate on this discussion list at times is the notion that the NT population here has ill intent toward those with Asperger's Syndrome.   It feels like an "us against them" mentality as if our Asperger spouses are happy being AS and we're raining on their parade.  My husband has spoken eloquently lately about how Asperger's has prevented him from accessing so many things NT's talk about all the time.   He understands the words, but readily admits not feeling what the words mean.  He now watches movies intently to see the reason the actors are angry, sad, frustrated, crying.  He shakes his head now as he watches, knowing a whole series of events were part of a movie that caused someone to sob.  He watches the emotion of others but cannot access how they came to feel that way on the screen.  He now asks me to explain what happened in the movie, how the emotion came to be.  No, this is not a revolution, it is a ~revelation~ some of which will stick with him and some will float right out of his head perhaps moments after it is explained to him.  He never asked before, he's asking now.  If 50% of it sticks, our marriage will be 100% better.> > Regards,> Anita 55 NT> > > 36 m diagnosed AS who believes that hope isnt always a good thing.> Regards,Anita 55 NT, who believes hope is the best thing we have to hang on to to see if we can move forward.