Re: In re Sanda: ...??

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry Bill. Please report me to whatever that is. Maybe they can help? I am asking you all if I should just walk away from this. If you suspect I have any ulterior motives, I do not. I would love to try to stay in a relationship if it could become one of honesty, one with trust and not all the critcism. The reading of Maxine's book talks about couples counseling backfiring. Mine did. It talks about people saying "oh he is just acting like a man". That is a devastating statement too and she explains better than me.

I may be a rat, but not intentionally. I don't know who Mike B is.

I am very sorry to you all. I am angry and frustrated, not at you, right now at the world I guess, because I can't solve this with any of the resources available to me.

I don't blame you at all for your tiredness of my posts. That's how tired I am in this situation.

I was trying to understand and it is backfiring because my frustration leads to anger.

Sandy

If you report me, maybe they can counsel me. Or what do they do, shut me out? That's what has been happening to me for years now, so it won't be anything new.

Re: In re Sanda: ...??

OOPS! Oh well. Likely I'd have sent it anyway. So be it. -BillWD Loughman wrote:> Helen (Oh Wise One) -> > Dahlberg is getting on my nerves. Worse, the odor of her posts > reminds me (obtusely) of Mike B. I smell a rat.> > Am I wrong?> > Unless you can convince me I'm way off-base, I intend sending this to > ASPIRES:> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > _Warning_! ...This post contains Aspergian _BLUNT_:> > Dahlberg wrote:> > Bill> >> > I have been doing that for years. He complains that I am asking the> > same question. I have kept trying to clarify...> > So the onus cannot possibly be on you...> > >> > I know that I don't speak the same language, but believe me I have> > tried every language that I

know.> > Except the right one.> > >> > He has to know that...yet if he does, wouldn't he attempt to show me> > in a different language that he cares?> > You're fishing. Most of your posts are fishing: Rhetorical statements, > followed by rhetorical questions which suggest, *guide*, the answer you > want to hear.> > This is not useful. Worse, it betrays an agenda you've not yet been > honest about.> > To your question above: No; he'd try to use the same language that > you're offering to him. Unless he's too polite to use it.> That is, if he actually did want to answer. If you're honest about > his "replies", then I believe he did; he's giving you the only answer > you're going to get. And you *know* what it is.> > What then do you want of *us*?> Your constant backdrop, a drum-beat of Divorce!

Divorce! (and he'll > be sorry if I do it) is confusing at the most generous.> The occasional grace-note of how much you're an "asset" to your > husband (and he *should* be sorry to lose it)...> > What means "asset", in a woman who really hates her husband? Do I > already know the answer to that?> > Clearly your interest in *saving* your marriage is near nil. Clearly > you're threatening divorce. Are you asking our permission? Looking for > "grounds"?> > What is it you really want?> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...THIS inquiring mind begs to know. Please.> -- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Arrg!

When I opened my email program this morning and followed this

thread, I felt pain for everyone involved.

That slip of the keyboard...... Arrg!

Sanda, I will assure you at this point that unless I missed something

somewhere in past I don't think is contemplating removing you

from this discussion group. And you aren't getting " reported " to

anyone. Bill had intended to send this to me privately, with the

intent of getting a " second opinion " as to whether or not he should

send this discussion group in its present form. That is all he meant.

Likely he may have been wondering if he should tone it down a bit.

Given that it was 2:20 AM, yes, it would have been a very good idea

to " hold that thought " until morning. We are much more tactful after

a full night's sleep. Alas, given the late (or early) hour. he

forgot to " copy " and " paste " my email address into the " to " header

before he hit " send. "

We on the spectrum are a practical lot. Too practical at times but

you know, everyone in this world has a function and ours is to try to

move things forward. I fear the lateness of the hour made Bill more

blunt than he normally would be, but he was trying to help you move

forward too.

AS but some NT as well, when confronted with the pain of others, find

it very, very hard to watch on a continual basis, and strive to " fix "

it, and get very frustrated when the other person doesn't immediately

follow their instructions. We may get a little hasty and conclude,

okay, you don't want to fix this, you just want to complain.

Now you, Sandy, haven't been here that long, and I don't think you've

maxed out your complaining credits here yet (this is just a joke you

understand, we don't have " complaining credits " here.)

Some of our members, including Newland, who I really admire,

struggled for years to make their marriages work, only to have to

finally have to accept that it isn't workable. But by gosh,

tried! She put in a Herculean effort! For those of us who remember,

she has always been a friend to AS. But at times, she, too, was angry

- and rightfully so - with the condition, and the havoc it can wreak

in its wake. Why, oh why couldn't her spouse just GET IT, she would vent.

But , not one for self pity or recriminations, moved on, and

made the brave step. It was very hard for her because she has three

children (then in their late teens and early 20's when the divorce

was pending), and for a time, hubby was using them as bargaining

chips, and it was very discouraging to see, given how has

dedicated every waking moment of her life to advocating for her

children in a time that AS was unknown. is very resilient of

course, but I marvel at how she has made a life that still includes

her ex in family events. She has a very big heart!

A few months back I sent a very blunt email to the a member in the

group, and it was so blunt it even shocked and Bill. Some here

will know which one I meant. It was uncharacteristic of me. But at

that point, I was " personalizing " (never a good idea of course, but I

was fed up) comments that one NT wife was making about her AS

husband. I feeling as if she was attributing every negative

characteristic he had to AS, while many of us on the board were

saying, as Newland once put it about jerks on the spectrum in

general, this man is suffering from ASS (you know, the relative of

the horse) not only AS.

The poor woman, due to failing health, was not in a position where

she could up and leave her husband. She had given the guy the best

part of her life, and she was pretty bitter and she needed to vent.

It went on for several months tho, and so at this point I called her

on it and said in effect, to continually blame the other person is to

take the onus off yourself to change your life.

Now in all this, I do not sense you attacking AS as a group, you are

only trying to sort out - as I once did in my failing relationship

with an NT man - whether or not your husband really means it when

he's saying he's indifferent.

Now here, I am really sorry to say, and this is my opinion only, but

I think your husband really means it, and though yes, he may have AS,

at this point I don't think this is influencing his position one way

or another. He sounds like the partner in my story last night.

Again, just my opinion here, but as I see it, he wants out now but he

doesn't have the guts to say it. Maybe his spectrum-ness comes into

play here in that change is scary, change is hard, so if he can just

maintain the status quo, that will be fine with him. Except that you

keep trying to ask for more (which is not unreasonable, but

evidently, more than he can give right now.) and so this is making it

impossible for him. Or maybe he fears a divorce is going to cost him

big time (I don't know what the divorce laws are like in your state)

so he's waiting for you to make the first move, as then, presumably,

it will cost him less. Guys do that sometimes (sorry, guys!)

You are doing what I did then, which is probably the most natural

response if you still love your partner, and that is to try to

understand what is going on and try to save your marriage.

But the answers - I'm so very sorry to say, seem to be here in front

of you. If you re-read all of your posts and the things that you say

he's said, you will see that your husband has already made it clear

where he stands.

My heart goes out to you. I don't think you have a mean bone in your

body. I'm sorry counselling failed for you. I suggest that maybe find

a new one, you just go yourself, so that you can gather the strength

to make a decision one way or another.

Please don't give up trying to find a good counsellor. In my life,

I've had more crappy councillors than good ones. My last councillor,

who was back in the stone age as far as knowledge of ASDs was trying

to get me to discount my own ASD tendencies and use " creative

visualization " to " improve (my) self esteem. " She was lending me

feminist books from the 70's to try to bolster my morale. I saw her

for three sessions and that was it. But she wasn't the worst of them.

When I was struggling to decide whether to stay or leave my

alcoholic, abusive ex, for the upteenth time when I was 21, I saw a

minister who was renowned to be a good councillor. He told me the

reason why things were going so badly was we weren't married in the

church. So we should stop having sex until we got married in the

church and then everything would get better. In the meantime, all of

my friends, one by one, started telling me they wished to hear no

more about how awful " J " was to me (tho they had no doubt he was

awful) until I left him for good. They were fed up!

Maybe none of this helps you at all. But I do feel your pain!

I have to get on with my morning. Take care!!!

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Nicely said and explained Helen!! I agree with you...Helen Foisy wrote: Arrg!When I opened my email program this morning and followed this thread, I felt pain for everyone involved.That slip of the keyboard...... Arrg!Sanda, I will assure you at this point that unless I missed something somewhere in past I don't think is contemplating removing you from this discussion group. And you aren't getting "reported" to anyone. Bill had intended to send

this to me privately, with the intent of getting a "second opinion" as to whether or not he should send this discussion group in its present form. That is all he meant.Likely he may have been wondering if he should tone it down a bit. Given that it was 2:20 AM, yes, it would have been a very good idea to "hold that thought" until morning. We are much more tactful after a full night's sleep. Alas, given the late (or early) hour. he forgot to "copy" and "paste" my email address into the "to" header before he hit "send."We on the spectrum are a practical lot. Too practical at times but you know, everyone in this world has a function and ours is to try to move things forward. I fear the lateness of the hour made Bill more blunt than he normally would be, but he was trying to help you move forward too.AS but some NT as well, when confronted with the pain of others, find it very, very hard to watch on a

continual basis, and strive to "fix" it, and get very frustrated when the other person doesn't immediately follow their instructions. We may get a little hasty and conclude, okay, you don't want to fix this, you just want to complain.Now you, Sandy, haven't been here that long, and I don't think you've maxed out your complaining credits here yet (this is just a joke you understand, we don't have "complaining credits" here.)Some of our members, including Newland, who I really admire, struggled for years to make their marriages work, only to have to finally have to accept that it isn't workable. But by gosh, tried! She put in a Herculean effort! For those of us who remember, she has always been a friend to AS. But at times, she, too, was angry - and rightfully so - with the condition, and the havoc it can wreak in its wake. Why, oh why couldn't her spouse just GET IT, she would vent.But ,

not one for self pity or recriminations, moved on, and made the brave step. It was very hard for her because she has three children (then in their late teens and early 20's when the divorce was pending), and for a time, hubby was using them as bargaining chips, and it was very discouraging to see, given how has dedicated every waking moment of her life to advocating for her children in a time that AS was unknown. is very resilient of course, but I marvel at how she has made a life that still includes her ex in family events. She has a very big heart!A few months back I sent a very blunt email to the a member in the group, and it was so blunt it even shocked and Bill. Some here will know which one I meant. It was uncharacteristic of me. But at that point, I was "personalizing" (never a good idea of course, but I was fed up) comments that one NT wife was making about her AS husband. I feeling as if

she was attributing every negative characteristic he had to AS, while many of us on the board were saying, as Newland once put it about jerks on the spectrum in general, this man is suffering from ASS (you know, the relative of the horse) not only AS.The poor woman, due to failing health, was not in a position where she could up and leave her husband. She had given the guy the best part of her life, and she was pretty bitter and she needed to vent. It went on for several months tho, and so at this point I called her on it and said in effect, to continually blame the other person is to take the onus off yourself to change your life.Now in all this, I do not sense you attacking AS as a group, you are only trying to sort out - as I once did in my failing relationship with an NT man - whether or not your husband really means it when he's saying he's indifferent.Now here, I am really sorry to say, and

this is my opinion only, but I think your husband really means it, and though yes, he may have AS, at this point I don't think this is influencing his position one way or another. He sounds like the partner in my story last night.Again, just my opinion here, but as I see it, he wants out now but he doesn't have the guts to say it. Maybe his spectrum-ness comes into play here in that change is scary, change is hard, so if he can just maintain the status quo, that will be fine with him. Except that you keep trying to ask for more (which is not unreasonable, but evidently, more than he can give right now.) and so this is making it impossible for him. Or maybe he fears a divorce is going to cost him big time (I don't know what the divorce laws are like in your state) so he's waiting for you to make the first move, as then, presumably, it will cost him less. Guys do that sometimes (sorry, guys!)You are doing what I

did then, which is probably the most natural response if you still love your partner, and that is to try to understand what is going on and try to save your marriage.But the answers - I'm so very sorry to say, seem to be here in front of you. If you re-read all of your posts and the things that you say he's said, you will see that your husband has already made it clear where he stands.My heart goes out to you. I don't think you have a mean bone in your body. I'm sorry counselling failed for you. I suggest that maybe find a new one, you just go yourself, so that you can gather the strength to make a decision one way or another.Please don't give up trying to find a good counsellor. In my life, I've had more crappy councillors than good ones. My last councillor, who was back in the stone age as far as knowledge of ASDs was trying to get me to discount my own ASD tendencies and use "creative visualization"

to "improve (my) self esteem." She was lending me feminist books from the 70's to try to bolster my morale. I saw her for three sessions and that was it. But she wasn't the worst of them.When I was struggling to decide whether to stay or leave my alcoholic, abusive ex, for the upteenth time when I was 21, I saw a minister who was renowned to be a good councillor. He told me the reason why things were going so badly was we weren't married in the church. So we should stop having sex until we got married in the church and then everything would get better. In the meantime, all of my friends, one by one, started telling me they wished to hear no more about how awful "J" was to me (tho they had no doubt he was awful) until I left him for good. They were fed up!Maybe none of this helps you at all. But I do feel your pain!I have to get on with my morning. Take care!!!-

Helen

[Guest guest]

,

I'm going to pipe in here, because I see you walking on familiar

ground. I am AS with an AS husband who is further on the spectrum

than I am. When I joined this group, my behaviour was rather obtuse.

And on several occasions, I think I remember calling Bill a monster

or something of the sort - oops. It took me several times of being

pissed and having to re-read Bill's posting to realize just how RIGHT

he is.

I was an " expert " I had read the books, the websites and the

articles. I had gone to counseling. So when I came onto Aspires, of

course, I knew it all. Looking back, I see how stupid I was. But I

did the same thing - I asked questions that were guided, basically in

an attempt for me to justify my rage and make my husband seem more

like a monster than someone with AS.

I was seeking permission to act like a martyr.

I learned that no matter what I read, no matter I think I know, I

cannot change my husband. Marriage to an aspie is like the Lemon Law

- you have a period of time after you take the car off the lot to see

if you are sure you want it, but after that, it's AS-is. Once I got

" off the cross " and looked at MY behavior, I realized that the true

monster was me. I thought my husband was overly critical, but then I

realized that I'd rather be with a man who pays enough attention to

what I say and do then someone who just ignores me. His criticism was

his way of showing that he was paying attention.

And I asked my hubby the same thing - do you want to stay? And the

obvious answer that I just was too stubborn to figure out - of course

he does. AS has no qualms. If they don't like something, they don't

partake. If my AS husband wanted out of the relationship, he would

leave. His staying was his way of saying - " I'm still here. "

My advice - pay more attention to what people are trying to tell you.

Stop quoting the books - most of us have read them. And most of us

have learned that parts of the books apply to us, but every NT/AS

relationship is different. And most importantly, STOP trying to

assign intent in his actions. That is the most critical mistake an NT

partner can make. Unless he told you he has forgotten how to love you

or doesn't love you - don't assume. It just makes you out to be a

martyr.

I know it's tough, but when you realize that you can't change him and

that you have to work on yourself, it will get better. He's probably

angry and resentful because by your posts you sound like you've been

on his tail for a long time. Let up, and you'll see it prosper. As

my counselor said - Stop nagging, stop complaining, stop trying to

change him. Fix yourself first.

a - going back into lurk-land.

>

> I'm sorry Bill. Please report me to whatever that is. Maybe they

can help? I am asking you all if I should just walk away from this.

If you suspect I have any ulterior motives, I do not. I would love to

try to stay in a relationship if it could become one of honesty, one

with trust and not all the critcism. The reading of Maxine's book

talks about couples counseling backfiring. Mine did. It talks about

people saying " oh he is just acting like a man " . That is a

devastating statement too and she explains better than me.

>

[Guest guest]

thanks

i am situatioanally depressed right now...so i called the counselor this morning...told him i couldn't make it in but would send him his check

told him he could possibly help me in the future but only if he could read Maxine Aston's books...Aspergers in Love, and The Other Side of Aspergers, and possibly the one by Bently

we did talk for the 30 minutes or so that I was supposed to go see him

I feel like I may have done something that will help someone here.

I told him I was pissed of at the Counciling World in general, not him per se. I told him that if the first counselor we had gone to 3 years or 4 years ago, would have had an Awareness of this Invisible Syndrome that we may have gotten help

I told him that at this point I felt that it was most likely beyond repair, and certainly would continue to be so if Nick never got an awareness and acceptance.

Just so you know this counselor came highly recommended in the St Louis area as a couples counselor. He even gives lectures on Gotman of whom I had been somewhat familiar. Gotman wrote the theories of The 7 Horemen for Divorce type book....Criticism, Contempt, Withdrawel, etc....

I do like this counselor. He knows that. But, I told him he would not be able to help me as an individual, and certainly not us as a couple without a greater awareness of this issue. And I said, that as a couples counselor he owed it to himself and the community to be more aware of this, because he might just be faced with another couple like us. But maybe it would be in an early on stage. Maybe he would be able to help them.

So I've done my good deed today. I may have helped change someones life in the future for the better

I am sorry to have caused you all problems. I appreciate your advice

I am so very sad and can't stop crying.

I know what Nick says. It is funny I used to say to him over and over I wish we could just connect ourselves like electricity or something without talking so you could feel the good things I feel about you and vs versa. I knew way early on that the languages seemed different. Yet even now, I know he has this huge love inside. But he has learned these ways to protect himself. He has used intimidation, arrogance, sarcasm as a way of shutting off others. But when I go to hug him or when I went in to lay by him the other nite, he could not stop smiling. There is a tenderness there that can be seen just by me. But that ugly meanness and other stuff is so destructive.

I'm going to go read a wonderful book through the stupid tears now. They'll eventually dry up.

Thank you so much again

sandy

Re: In re Sanda: ...??

Arrg!When I opened my email program this morning and followed this thread, I felt pain for everyone involved.That slip of the keyboard.... .. Arrg!Sanda, I will assure you at this point that unless I missed something somewhere in past I don't think is contemplating removing you from this discussion group. And you aren't getting "reported" to anyone. Bill had intended to send this to me privately, with the intent of getting a "second opinion" as to whether or not he should send this discussion group in its present form. That is all he meant.Likely he may have been wondering if he should tone it down a bit. Given that it was 2:20 AM, yes, it would have been a very good idea to "hold that thought" until morning. We are much more tactful after a full night's sleep. Alas, given the late (or early) hour. he forgot to "copy" and "paste" my email address into the "to" header

before he hit "send."We on the spectrum are a practical lot. Too practical at times but you know, everyone in this world has a function and ours is to try to move things forward. I fear the lateness of the hour made Bill more blunt than he normally would be, but he was trying to help you move forward too.AS but some NT as well, when confronted with the pain of others, find it very, very hard to watch on a continual basis, and strive to "fix" it, and get very frustrated when the other person doesn't immediately follow their instructions. We may get a little hasty and conclude, okay, you don't want to fix this, you just want to complain.Now you, Sandy, haven't been here that long, and I don't think you've maxed out your complaining credits here yet (this is just a joke you understand, we don't have "complaining credits" here.)Some of our members, including Newland, who I

really admire, struggled for years to make their marriages work, only to have to finally have to accept that it isn't workable. But by gosh, tried! She put in a Herculean effort! For those of us who remember, she has always been a friend to AS. But at times, she, too, was angry - and rightfully so - with the condition, and the havoc it can wreak in its wake. Why, oh why couldn't her spouse just GET IT, she would vent.But , not one for self pity or recriminations, moved on, and made the brave step. It was very hard for her because she has three children (then in their late teens and early 20's when the divorce was pending), and for a time, hubby was using them as bargaining chips, and it was very discouraging to see, given how has dedicated every waking moment of her life to advocating for her children in a time that AS was unknown. is very resilient of course, but I

marvel at how she has made a life that still includes her ex in family events. She has a very big heart!A few months back I sent a very blunt email to the a member in the group, and it was so blunt it even shocked and Bill. Some here will know which one I meant. It was uncharacteristic of me. But at that point, I was "personalizing" (never a good idea of course, but I was fed up) comments that one NT wife was making about her AS husband. I feeling as if she was attributing every negative characteristic he had to AS, while many of us on the board were saying, as Newland once put it about jerks on the spectrum in general, this man is suffering from ASS (you know, the relative of the horse) not only AS.The poor woman, due to failing health, was not in a position where she could up and leave her husband. She had given the guy the best part of her life, and she was pretty bitter and

she needed to vent. It went on for several months tho, and so at this point I called her on it and said in effect, to continually blame the other person is to take the onus off yourself to change your life.Now in all this, I do not sense you attacking AS as a group, you are only trying to sort out - as I once did in my failing relationship with an NT man - whether or not your husband really means it when he's saying he's indifferent.Now here, I am really sorry to say, and this is my opinion only, but I think your husband really means it, and though yes, he may have AS, at this point I don't think this is influencing his position one way or another. He sounds like the partner in my story last night.Again, just my opinion here, but as I see it, he wants out now but he doesn't have the guts to say it. Maybe his spectrum-ness comes into play here in that change is scary, change is hard, so

if he can just maintain the status quo, that will be fine with him. Except that you keep trying to ask for more (which is not unreasonable, but evidently, more than he can give right now.) and so this is making it impossible for him. Or maybe he fears a divorce is going to cost him big time (I don't know what the divorce laws are like in your state) so he's waiting for you to make the first move, as then, presumably, it will cost him less. Guys do that sometimes (sorry, guys!)You are doing what I did then, which is probably the most natural response if you still love your partner, and that is to try to understand what is going on and try to save your marriage.But the answers - I'm so very sorry to say, seem to be here in front of you. If you re-read all of your posts and the things that you say he's said, you will see that your husband has already made it clear where he stands.My

heart goes out to you. I don't think you have a mean bone in your body. I'm sorry counselling failed for you. I suggest that maybe find a new one, you just go yourself, so that you can gather the strength to make a decision one way or another.Please don't give up trying to find a good counsellor. In my life, I've had more crappy councillors than good ones. My last councillor, who was back in the stone age as far as knowledge of ASDs was trying to get me to discount my own ASD tendencies and use "creative visualization" to "improve (my) self esteem." She was lending me feminist books from the 70's to try to bolster my morale. I saw her for three sessions and that was it. But she wasn't the worst of them.When I was struggling to decide whether to stay or leave my alcoholic, abusive ex, for the upteenth time when I was 21, I saw a minister who was renowned to be a good councillor. He told me the

reason why things were going so badly was we weren't married in the church. So we should stop having sex until we got married in the church and then everything would get better. In the meantime, all of my friends, one by one, started telling me they wished to hear no more about how awful "J" was to me (tho they had no doubt he was awful) until I left him for good. They were fed up!Maybe none of this helps you at all. But I do feel your pain!I have to get on with my morning. Take care!!!- Helen

[Guest guest]

bill, I think you should take your own advice... the most important thing I have learned from this site is observing (after it happened to me) time after time, how an NT, usually a woman obviously in a great deal of pain, comes here and openly shares, and tries to solicit advice.   And then, when she least expects it, an AS slams her (See message below).   To me this clearly exhibits the classic and common (although not to all) AS inability to emphasize with others.  Let me clarify, not all AS here are so quick to judge and condemn those whose pain and suffering 'get on their nerves'.   And the 'slammers' are the same people everytime... This exhibits the AS trait of not being able to empathize.   And to make it even worse for the suffering NT, hints are given that the person should 'leave'  and find another site where they 'fit in'.  NTs, try not to take it personally, it is a common occurance here.    oopsie, it's just Janet Zee telling it like she sees it. P. S.I continue to learn... and encourage the NT people to stay, the answers are here, but they will come from your own intuition and observations of the different behaviors and responses, not always from the 'advice' of the AS members who are 'annoyed' by emotional expressions from those who are in pain.    OOPS! Oh well. Likely I'd have sent it anyway. So be it. -BillWD Loughman wrote:> Helen (Oh Wise One) -> > Dahlberg is getting on my nerves. Worse, the odor of her posts > reminds me (obtusely) of Mike B. I smell a rat.> > Am I wrong?> > Unless you can convince me I'm way off-base, I intend sending this to > ASPIRES:> > __________________________________________________________> > _Warning_! ...This post contains Aspergian _BLUNT_:> > Dahlberg wrote:> > Bill> >> > I have been doing that for years. He complains that I am asking the> > same question. I have kept trying to clarify...> > So the onus cannot possibly be on you...> > >> > I know that I don't speak the same language, but believe me I have> > tried every language that I know.> > Except the right one.> > >> > He has to know that...yet if he does, wouldn't he attempt to show me> > in a different language that he cares?> > You're fishing. Most of your posts are fishing: Rhetorical statements, > followed by rhetorical questions which suggest, *guide*, the answer you > want to hear.> > This is not useful. Worse, it betrays an agenda you've not yet been > honest about.> > To your question above: No; he'd try to use the same language that > you're offering to him. Unless he's too polite to use it.> That is, if he actually did want to answer. If you're honest about > his "replies", then I believe he did; he's giving you the only answer > you're going to get. And you *know* what it is.> > What then do you want of *us*?> Your constant backdrop, a drum-beat of Divorce! Divorce! (and he'll > be sorry if I do it) is confusing at the most generous.> The occasional grace-note of how much you're an "asset" to your > husband (and he *should* be sorry to lose it)...> > What means "asset", in a woman who really hates her husband? Do I > already know the answer to that?> > Clearly your interest in *saving* your marriage is near nil. Clearly > you're threatening divorce. Are you asking our permission? Looking for > "grounds"?> > What is it you really want?> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...THIS inquiring mind begs to know. Please.> -- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

a lot of women come to this site. they gravitate here and seek answers, they seek the truth and understanding of their problems. Some have AS, other are called asses by their partners. Some are in pain and are searching for any grasp or connection they can make with their partners. They get told they are too annoying, too intense and too emotional...theres a clue there.....and then we are told.....oooh its ok he doesnt understand he cant empathise he has AS you know? As often as it is seen that nt partners call their AS partners Asses....it can be successfully argued that if someone is annoying, intense and emotional...a bad combination, It isnt definitively and textbook-like because i cant empathise with you that i tell you that you annoy the shit out of me. maybe...just maybe it is, actually, because your an annoying person. I do feel sorry

for the lady who seems to be in pain and depressed at the minute, she seems so desperate and needy. I do not seek to take away her need for validation and to share her feelings here. but if she can guage that an un-modulated outpouring of emotional gasping for affection/attention will turn some with AS away ...it may help her to see-for-herself that this approach may not be the most successfull approach for getting what she craves; attention from her AS partner. my advice: take a break..step back.......stop. 36 m diagnosed AS. Janet Zimmerman wrote: bill, I think you should take your own advice... the most important thing I have learned from this site is observing (after it happened to me) time after time, how an NT, usually a woman obviously in a great deal of pain, comes here and openly shares, and tries to solicit advice. And then, when she least expects it, an AS slams her (See message below). To me this clearly exhibits the classic and common (although not to all) AS inability to emphasize with others. Let me clarify, not all AS here are so quick to judge and condemn those whose pain and suffering 'get on their nerves'. And the 'slammers' are the same people everytime...

This exhibits the AS trait of not being able to empathize. And to make it even worse for the suffering NT, hints are given that the person should 'leave' and find another site where they 'fit in'. NTs, try not to take it personally, it is a common occurance here. oopsie, it's just Janet Zee telling it like she sees it. P. S.I continue to learn... and encourage the NT people to stay, the answers are here, but they will come from your own intuition and observations of the different behaviors and responses, not always from the 'advice' of the AS members who are 'annoyed' by emotional expressions from those who are in pain. OOPS! Oh well. Likely I'd have sent it anyway. So be it. -BillWD Loughman wrote:> Helen (Oh Wise One) -> > Dahlberg is getting on my nerves. Worse, the odor of her posts > reminds me (obtusely) of Mike B. I smell a rat.> > Am I wrong?> > Unless you can convince me I'm way off-base, I intend sending this to > ASPIRES:> >

__________________________________________________________> > _Warning_! ...This post contains Aspergian _BLUNT_:> > Dahlberg wrote:> > Bill> >> > I have been doing that for years. He complains that I am asking the> > same question. I have kept trying to clarify...> > So the onus cannot possibly be on you...> > >> > I know that I don't speak the same language, but believe me I have> > tried every language that I know.> > Except the right one.> > >> > He has to know that...yet if he does, wouldn't he attempt

to show me> > in a different language that he cares?> > You're fishing. Most of your posts are fishing: Rhetorical statements, > followed by rhetorical questions which suggest, *guide*, the answer you > want to hear.> > This is not useful. Worse, it betrays an agenda you've not yet been > honest about.> > To your question above: No; he'd try to use the same language that > you're offering to him. Unless he's too polite to use it.> That is, if he actually did want to answer. If you're honest about > his "replies", then I

believe he did; he's giving you the only answer > you're going to get. And you *know* what it is.> > What then do you want of *us*?> Your constant backdrop, a drum-beat of Divorce! Divorce! (and he'll > be sorry if I do it) is confusing at the most generous.> The occasional grace-note of how much you're an "asset" to your > husband (and he *should* be sorry to lose it)...> > What means "asset", in a woman who really hates her husband? Do I > already know the answer to that?> > Clearly your interest in *saving* your marriage is near nil. Clearly > you're threatening divorce. Are you asking our permission? Looking for > "grounds"?> > What is it you really want?> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...THIS inquiring mind begs to know. Please.> -- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

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[Guest guest]

I concur with you, Janet. I have shown in going through therapy,

that I can empathize strongly with people who are going through rough

situations. My therapist knows that I have enough " experience " under

my belt for all the years I compensated for not ever knowing I had

ADHD/AS until it became official in my life. I may not be able to

relate to a person's given situation, but I can feel what that person

must be going through and such. Had another situation come up where I

showed my empathy skills. So perhaps I am unlike a lot of AS males

who don't have the ability to empathize with others.

I do not have any right to go around slamming on anyone else, just

because that person's going through pain. It all goes back to the

principle of congratulating someone for their achievements or

consoling someone who is going through pain so when my time comes

either way, people celebrate my achievements or console me for the

pain I've endured.

> > > > Bill

> > > >

> > > > I have been doing that for years. He complains that I am

asking

> > the

> > > > same question. I have kept trying to clarify...

> > >

> > > So the onus cannot possibly be on you...

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I know that I don't speak the same language, but believe me I

have

> > > > tried every language that I know.

> > >

> > > Except the right one.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > He has to know that...yet if he does, wouldn't he attempt to

> > show me

> > > > in a different language that he cares?

> > >

> > > You're fishing. Most of your posts are fishing: Rhetorical

> > statements,

> > > followed by rhetorical questions which suggest, *guide*, the

> > answer you

> > > want to hear.

> > >

> > > This is not useful. Worse, it betrays an agenda you've not yet

been

> > > honest about.

> > >

> > > To your question above: No; he'd try to use the same language

that

> > > you're offering to him. Unless he's too polite to use it.

> > > That is, if he actually did want to answer. If you're honest

about

> > > his " replies " , then I believe he did; he's giving you the only

> > answer

> > > you're going to get. And you *know* what it is.

> > >

> > > What then do you want of *us*?

> > > Your constant backdrop, a drum-beat of Divorce! Divorce! (and

he'll

> > > be sorry if I do it) is confusing at the most generous.

> > > The occasional grace-note of how much you're an " asset " to your

> > > husband (and he *should* be sorry to lose it)...

> > >

> > > What means " asset " , in a woman who really hates her husband? Do

I

> > > already know the answer to that?

> > >

> > > Clearly your interest in *saving* your marriage is near nil.

Clearly

> > > you're threatening divorce. Are you asking our permission?

> > Looking for

> > > " grounds " ?

> > >

> > > What is it you really want?

> > >

> > > - Bill, 75, AS; ...THIS inquiring mind begs to know. Please.

> > >

> >

> > --

> >

> > WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> > http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I say let people come here if they want to help find what they're

looking for in their relationships, regardless if they and/or their

partners are the ones with AS. If someone's going through a tough

time, I can empathize with both NTs and ASs. But I can't sympathize

with either because I've never been involved in a relationship at any

level after being diagnosed officially with AS (my ex-girlfriend felt

that my AS had become too much for what she was facing). Even when I

was married, my ex-wife (who works with the developmentally disabled)

never discovered that I might have AS or ADHD. That really surprised

me, after being diagnosed last year. Either I must have done an

excellent job at compensating for all these years, so people failed

to see that I could have had AS/ADHD. Either way, I am more than

thankful for being diagnosed last year. It's brought me a type of

freedom I might not have had otherwise.

> > > Bill

> > >

> > > I have been doing that for years. He complains that I am asking

the

> > > same question. I have kept trying to clarify...

> >

> > So the onus cannot possibly be on you...

> >

> > >

> > > I know that I don't speak the same language, but believe me I

have

> > > tried every language that I know.

> >

> > Except the right one.

> >

> > >

> > > He has to know that...yet if he does, wouldn't he attempt to

show me

> > > in a different language that he cares?

> >

> > You're fishing. Most of your posts are fishing: Rhetorical

statements,

> > followed by rhetorical questions which suggest, *guide*, the

answer you

> > want to hear.

> >

> > This is not useful. Worse, it betrays an agenda you've not yet

been

> > honest about.

> >

> > To your question above: No; he'd try to use the same language

that

> > you're offering to him. Unless he's too polite to use it.

> > That is, if he actually did want to answer. If you're honest

about

> > his " replies " , then I believe he did; he's giving you the only

answer

> > you're going to get. And you *know* what it is.

> >

> > What then do you want of *us*?

> > Your constant backdrop, a drum-beat of Divorce! Divorce! (and

he'll

> > be sorry if I do it) is confusing at the most generous.

> > The occasional grace-note of how much you're an " asset " to your

> > husband (and he *should* be sorry to lose it)...

> >

> > What means " asset " , in a woman who really hates her husband? Do I

> > already know the answer to that?

> >

> > Clearly your interest in *saving* your marriage is near nil.

Clearly

> > you're threatening divorce. Are you asking our permission?

Looking for

> > " grounds " ?

> >

> > What is it you really want?

> >

> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...THIS inquiring mind begs to know. Please.

> >

>

> --

>

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

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> A Smarter Email.

>