Re: Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!

[Guest guest]

Thanks Randy, I was getting in rather a tizz. I think the issue for me at this time is that I am getting better at recognising thoughts as thoughts and defusing, but I am rubbish at allowing phyical sensations just to be. I think it is this that I need to focus on. I just find the whole panic thing overwhelming. It says it the Russ book that if you find it overwhelming to practice accepting one small thing at a time - I'm not sure quite how that works. As I am standing there panicking, do I first accept the racing heart, and then the shaky legs ect.... I could be at this for a long time. I am impatient, there is still a very big chunk of me that wants to wave a magic wand and let the whole thing be gone. I

live in a comfortable bubble, and I can still live a valued life within that bubble, so why should I give myself all this agro trying to pop myself out of the bubble? - its snug in here! And as you say its down to my choice.

I'm going to try the chess board exercise in a minute, I think that is a useful. What was your experience of the exercise? I use the book Leave Your Mind Behind a lot as well, I find that very helpful. Anyhow, I am going to set some small goals - I know what my values are. They are clear, it is the goal setting that I have balked at.

Thank you for your great post - you really should write that book you know!

simone

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!

> So my question to the group is, is it good enough to tell > myself thats its Ok - I can still value the friendship I have by > seeing my friend somewhere I feel comfortable, or am I selling > myself short? And if I am selling myself short, how can I stop > from beating myself up about it?Hi Simone,Is it OK if I open my big mouth one more time today? I think the short answer to your very good question is this: in the end no one knows what to do but you. You own your life even when you don't want to. But if you want my opinion, there is no must ... and there is no should, except in the form of thoughts.If it is useful to hang onto 'must' and 'should' and 'wrong' and similar thoughts, hang onto them. If it's not useful, work on letting them go (but not getting rid of them). Not because

they are bad thoughts or wrong thoughts, but only because they do not serve you.If you need help with letting go (but not getting rid of), reread the workbook chapters on defusing & mindfulness. Do the very beginning exercises over again. There are several different ones, and as you know they each offer different ways to defuse. It doesn't have to be meditation or nothing. For example there is an exercise about imagining your mind as a chessboard. Get out a real chessboard or something similar and act it out. I did it last week with a little basket and a handful of pocket change.Your mind may tell you you're an idiot for doing this, that you should be beyond it. Start there. Each thought as it arrives will insists it's really right. Each thought is a chance to practice. As for thoughts of panic: You needn't be afraid of committing to a value as long as you keep the distinction

straight between values & goals. A value might be living an independent, loving, engaged life. Skating at a big Hugh Castle isn't a value. It might at some point be a goal, a big jump after you practice smaller jumps. Having done the small jumps successfully, can you find an intermediate jump to do?Is all this worth it? You won't be wrong if you decide it's not, nor will you be right if you decide it is. You own your life.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Janelle,

Thank you for your thought provoking post and for teaching me how to spell huge!!

I find it incredibly difficult to open up about my anxiety. I just feel such a twit! Especially as I teach yoga, and am rather good at teaching people how to calm down! I feel a bit of a fraud. I sometimes wonder if my panic ( and I don't panic often, only when I step out of my comfort zone, which is wide enough to be just bearable) has some kind of unconscious motivation. Some reason to make me feel safe and secure, so that on an unconscious level I just don't want to get rid of it because it serves a purpose. How can you defuse from a thought that is unconscious?

I would love to 'risk it', but maybe my risks have to be little ones at the moment whilst I am learning to accept. My willingness dial seems stuck at a certain point, beyond which I will not go, and that really frustrates me. I read Weekes years ago and found the acceptance part really difficult. How can you accept something as awful as the sensations of panic? I think I need a real shift here to move forward.. ..

Simone

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!

Good Morning Simone, I don't know the answer to your questions. I struggle with thatmyself. Even in the discussion of escapist thoughts I find myselfprotesting-- yes but sometimes escaping is a way to take care ofyourself-- so I don't know if that is my mind trying to protect my ownescaping behavior or if it is compassion for the little person who isstill so easily overwhelmed.I come from a background of anxiety, though I haven't been anywherenear panic for years. My question to you: What happens if you decideto take a risk (admittedly a huge one so give yourself a break onthat)and your very worse fears are realized. You get to the iceskating arena and you lose it... what then? You are there with thekids and your friend. You are shaking, hyperventilating, can'tconcentrate on any sort of conversation, antsy or maybe you are cryingand can't get off the floor... think of the very scariest

thing thatcan happen to you in a panic attack... and then what? What happens next?I know from my own experience that I was much more afraid of otherpeople's reaction to my panic than fearful of how dreadful panicfeels. And you will get a reaction. Some people will be uncomfortable,some people will be afraid of you and for you, some people will wantto reach out and help you, others will have nothing but compassion foryou. Your friend might be confused (unless she knows it might happen)the kids embarrassed. But where are you in all this? The Simone cryingon the floor worrying about what other people might think of her. TheSimone who decided to risk it, the Simone who showed up in all herhumanity, the Simone who is a gift, panic and all. Is it worth hidingthat Simone because people might look at her, might see her and beuncomfortable by her?I truly believe every time each of us decides to risk

it and we arewilling to show up, "flaws" and all, we create a little more space inthis world for others to show up to.Whatever decision you make will be ok. If your value is connectingwith this friend, there are other ways to do that, if your value isgoing out even when you feel you need to stay home there are otherways to do that too. Please remember to be with yourself kindly. Thisdecision making is a vital part of the process, no matter what thefinal outcome, and it is worth being present for.--Janelle>> > Hi,> > Nearly a year of working with ACT has brought its benefits - but I > still fall into those traps that Randy was

talking about - and I > still avoid like hell.> I have done my values - but hesitate to place an action on certain > values because then I am committed and the possibility of failure and > depression loom. For instance, my friend has asked me to go ice > skating with our kids - but my mind immediately comes up with all > sorts of images and thoughts of me panicking - (its not the ice > skating, its the venue, a big Hugh castle with big Hugh grounds) this > is the sort of place that triggers my agoraphobia. And I don't want > to look a fool in front of my friend so I avoid instead. Now, I KNOW, > I should go, and defuse and expand and all those other things - but I > just don't want to trigger those feelings. I am willing up to a point > and then SLAM, the doors of my mind shut down and I say no... and > then I feel depressed and a failure. I value my friend and

spending > time with her only I like to do it somewhere I feel comfortable. I > know this is wrong, I know, I should go forward regardless and take > all my feeling and thoughts with me but I still have not managed to > deal with the overwhelming feelings of panic that rise within me. The > feelings of intense vulnerability and all the associated physical > feelings. So my question to the group is, is it good enough to tell > myself thats its Ok - I can still value the friendship I have by > seeing my friend somewhere I feel comfortable, or am I selling myself > short? And if I am selling myself short, how can I stop from beating > myself up about it?> > Simone>

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[Guest guest]

Hi J,

Yes, it was Leeds castle. Good guess! Yes, you are right, I can challenge myself in a hundred little ways and inch my way forward. That does seem to be the best way for me. When I try to do too much it brings up more anxiety and negativity than I am comfortable with - but then I guess being comfortable isn't the issue is it? I will aim to give myself little dollops of discomfort on a regular basis!

By the way - I have ordered the new book Act on Anxiety, if anyone is intersted in working alongside me with it.

Happy New Year Everyone! Skol!

Simone

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!

>>I think the issue for me at this time is that I am getting better at>recognising thoughts as thoughts and defusing, but I am rubbish at>allowing phyical sensations just to be. I think it is this that I need >to focus on. I just find the whole panic thing overwhelming. It says in>the Russ book that if you find it overwhelming to practice>accepting one small thing at a time Hi Simone,I am just wondering if going ice skating at (? leeds castle?) is toobig a leap, you could set yourself a goal which is just outside yourcomfort zone bubble but does challenge you a little. Maybe arrange tomeet your friend somewhere new for a coffee or

whatever. Then (andthis is the difficult bit!) you would have to be willing to feel allof the pain and anxiety that just having said you would do whateverthis is brings to you. To feel it fully even for a very short time.Perhaps once you have made a commitment, you could lie in bed andimagine going - and let yourself feel whatever you feel (I am sureyour brain will conjure up an anxiety inducing scenario! mine sure does!)I havnt worked through the exercises in russ harris book yet, for somereason I just found it too hard to do more than read both that and theleave your mind behind book.happy new yeargood luckj

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[Guest guest]

Thanks J,

I have had this idea myself, getting in touch with my inner yoga teacher. The ideas that she comes up with are a lot more useful than the screaming voice of anxiety. So yes, using yoga as a template for my anxiety is something I will definitely work on. Also I think I need to development a lot more mindfulness generally! Its the knee jerk automatic reactions that I have to work on, this turning away from my own experience, turning away from the anxiety. I have failed to embrace it fully which I know that I need to do in order to move forward.

I am really interested in the mind/body link in all this and with me it is thought=extreme panic reaction=run! I know that I need to stand my ground and let it wash over me , and as Randy says it is a choice. Sometimes it really does seem to much effort when I have other valued things in my life that I can pursue that doesn't give me so much trouble! But I know that if I want to make my bubble bigger (expand) this is what I need to do.

Thanks for you 'useful' thoughts

Simone

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!

> > When I try to do too much it brings up more anxiety and negativitythan I am comfortable with - but then I guess being comfortable isn'tthe issue is it? > > SimoneHi Simone,I was wondering whether you are able to try getting in touch with your'inner yoga teacher' to help you?I am sure that in your classes there are times when your students saythose small but dreaded two words 'I cant'? I expect there may even bepostures which when you are planning the class, you know are probablefear inducers!So although you might well empathise, that doesnt get people anyfurther forward in the valued direction of doing yoga. I am

guessingthat you try some words of encouragement, perhaps 'have a little go'maybe using props or yourself to help and support. Start small with amodified posture.If you shut your eyes, can you see yourself in your yoga teachersoutfit? Get in touch with that aspect of yourself? Can she help youwith some of your 'roadblock thoughts' (the ones that make you stop orturn round and go home in leave your mind behind)? Maybe she can helpyou with the thought about being comfortable in your bubble, thatthat often leads to your world getting smaller and smaller, and onoccasions less able to be as fully active with your children as youwould like. Perhaps you have a couple of defusion exercises that workparticularly well for you that she could remind you of.If this does help at all, remember that this part of yourself is therewith you all the time! YOu have her with you wherever you go.good

luckj

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[Guest guest]

Hi J.

I'm getting really good at observing my thoughts but not so good at defusing from them - I tend to get into an argument with myself that goes something like this, ' you should really walk further today, but I don;t feel like it, you are avoiding again! You're never going to beat this if you don't practise. But I'm tired, I've lots to do..But you value a nice walk, but what it I feel panicky, and then I will feel depressed and then........

You get the picture! Trouble is I'm not quite sure sometimes if a thought is useful or not. For instance, the thought, 'I'm tired', well, I could notice that thought and carry on but if I kept doing that it would not be very useful because I would be ignoring my bodies needs and become exhausted. So what thought is useful? I have trouble with that one. Also, as I have so many values there is always something valued to be done practically in all sorts of ways - I don't need to beat myself up if I fall short in one domain surely? Or am I avoiding? Yep, I expect so.

I too have experimented with doing little things that my mind tells me that I can't do, although it always feels uncomfortable. It's that discomfort that I have to work with. Allowing that discomfort to be and not struggle with it. I always seem to set the struggle switch high when I start using words like 'should' and 'ought'. I start struggling with the fact that I know that I am avoiding!

Thanks for the Heartmath link, very interesting. I like the heartbreathing exercise. Number three is not difficult for me as I just imagine a nice big bar of Cadbury's - then I am in heaven!

Good luck to you to - lets keep at it!

Simone

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!

> Also I think I need to development a lot more mindfulness generally!>Its the knee jerk automatic reactions that I have to work on, this>turning away from my own experience, turning away from the anxiety. I>have failed to embrace it fully which I know that I need to do inorder >to move forward.> I am really interested in the mind/body link in all this and with me>it is thought=extreme panic reaction=run! xHi Simone,I am still struggling with this knowing what I should be doing but notquite doing it! HOwever, yesterday when I wanted to go straight hometo bed, I discovered that it was entirely possible to think that, andyet still keep on walking and carry on through the woods instead ofgetting the bus straight home! I confess I did cut the walk short andcome home not long after that rather than have a long extended strollas planned, but listening and not obeying

straight away is a small step.Bearing in mind that its a fine line between avoidance and usingtechniques that help to calm you down, remembering there is the possibility that its not always possible to find a choice whenextremely distressed, you might find this usefulhttp://www.heartmat h.org/free- services/ quick-coherence- technique. htmI cant do it, because although i find steps one and two kindof helpfulI get to 3 and I just cannot for the life of me think of or remember atime when I felt good! So I have given up on it.good luck!j

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[Guest guest]

Minds do not like being taken out of the drivers seat and being placed in the

passenger seat.

The logical mind claims it knows all; solves all; and even that it is you.

To the mind, defusion is arguably insanity.

As you begin to dismantle the verbal cage we all live in it throws up one

logical

protest after the other. Like for example, that you know your bodies needs

through

thought or that you need to figure out your values instead of choosing them.

ACT work can get quite noisy in the early stages.

It is very predictable and great fun to watch. But over time you begin to

carve out another way to be ... one in which you still have a logical

mind but it is not you. The larger you that you are can

behave in accord with logical thought or not based on experienced workability --

and that does not

itself need to be put into words. " By their fruits you will know them. "

You can describe the process that scoops out the space for that new way to be

but you cannot give a verbal rule that will BE that process ... because the

point of the process is to move the logical mind over into the passenger seat.

Giving a verbal rule that will BE that process puts the mind back into the

driver seat.

About the closest you can get to a verbal rule that will BE that process is a

paradoxical

one - thus all those goofy Zen books eg " the key to enlightenment is this: do

not believe this "

(sounds of bombs exploding as the mind implodes and the writers of such books

laugh hysterically)

When you say " I tend to get into an argument with myself " I would say no, that

is 100% not true. You are not arguing with your mind.

Your mind is arguing with itself. It is just that your mind

has contructed yet another " me " -- the

" accepting me " -- and it is calling it " you " :

" I'm doing this ACT stuf so I should accept " --

" but I'm tired " --

" you are avoiding! " --

" how do you know? Maybe you will be harmed if you don't listen "

And meanwhile YOU are aware of it all. YOU are conscious, you can choose,

you are " real, " you ARE. The constructed

" me " -- the " me " that is in the mind -- is a Star trek hologram " me. "

It does not matter if it claims to be " the avoidant me " or " the ACT me " -- it is

still

an illusion, a hologram, a thought.

And as soon as you

make progress of any kind in scooping out a space for a new way to be

langauge and cognition will run into that gap and claim ownership.

" you were doing so well, now you are avoiding again "

etc etc etc etc etc

It never stops. So far as I know. Well it does for periods of time ...

but then not.

Fortunately it does not have to if the attachment to the verbalized

content can be undermined enough that the transparent bowl of consciousness

that holds all of this stuff can become the basis of living

There is an item on one of the experiential avoidance scales

that says sometimes like " A person who is really 'together' should not struggle

with things the way I do. " Agreeing with this item predicts bad things.

Therapists new to the ACT work are often surprised to

learn about this item because they understood that ACT says " don't struggle. "

That is true, but it says it so thoroughly that even struggling

with struggle is struggle.

If you are going to struggle, do it mindfully, deliberately, purposefully.

Watch what thoughts come up.

Watch how your body feels. Watch the shoulds ebb and flow.

Adopt a posture of genuine interest as you struggle and avoid.

Be the transparent bowl and really see what you are holding

as you struggle and avoid, mindfully, deliberately, purposefully.

(warning -- this takes all of the sick fun out of the melodrama of avoiding.

Avoiding is now just another moment to be experienced.

So if you really want to keep living inside the soap opera

do not subject it to consciousness of this sort. Like in The Matrix --

red pill or blue pill)

Then stop avoiding and do the same thing. As you say:

" I too have experimented with doing little things that my mind tells me that I

can't do, although it always feels uncomfortable. "

Perfect. Then when you do that, as you say,

" Allow that discomfort to be and do not struggle with it. "

Perfect.

You are scooping out the space for that new way to be

.... it is right there in your message. You are doing it --

Its just early and it will take some time and care.

From the summer beaches of Brazil.

I hope this new year is all that your heart yearns for.

- S

Re: Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not

doing it!

Hi J.

I'm getting really good at observing my thoughts but not so good at defusing

from them - I tend to get into an argument with myself that goes something like

this, ' you should really walk further today, but I don;t feel like it, you are

avoiding again! You're never going to beat this if you don't practise. But I'm

tired, I've lots to do..But you value a nice walk, but what it I feel panicky,

and then I will feel depressed and then........

You get the picture! Trouble is I'm not quite sure sometimes if a thought is

useful or not. For instance, the thought, 'I'm tired', well, I could notice that

thought and carry on but if I kept doing that it would not be very useful

because I would be ignoring my bodies needs and become exhausted. So what

thought is useful? I have trouble with that one. Also, as I have so many values

there is always something valued to be done practically in all sorts of ways - I

don't need to beat myself up if I fall short in one domain surely? Or am I

avoiding? Yep, I expect so.

I too have experimented with doing little things that my mind tells me that I

can't do, although it always feels uncomfortable. It's that discomfort that I

have to work with. Allowing that discomfort to be and not struggle with it. I

always seem to set the struggle switch high when I start using words like

'should' and 'ought'. I start struggling with the fact that I know that I am

avoiding!

Thanks for the Heartmath link, very interesting. I like the heartbreathing

exercise. Number three is not difficult for me as I just imagine a nice big bar

of Cadbury's - then I am in heaven!

Good luck to you to - lets keep at it!

Simone

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing

it!

> Also I think I need to development a lot more mindfulness generally!

>Its the knee jerk automatic reactions that I have to work on, this

>turning away from my own experience, turning away from the anxiety. I

>have failed to embrace it fully which I know that I need to do in

order >to move forward.

> I am really interested in the mind/body link in all this and with me

>it is thought=extreme panic reaction=run! x

Hi Simone,

I am still struggling with this knowing what I should be doing but not

quite doing it! HOwever, yesterday when I wanted to go straight home

to bed, I discovered that it was entirely possible to think that, and

yet still keep on walking and carry on through the woods instead of

getting the bus straight home! I confess I did cut the walk short and

come home not long after that rather than have a long extended stroll

as planned, but listening and not obeying straight away is a small step.

Bearing in mind that its a fine line between avoidance and using

techniques that help to calm you down, remembering there is the

possibility that its not always possible to find a choice when

extremely distressed, you might find this useful

http://www.heartmat h.org/free- services/ quick-coherence- technique. htm

I cant do it, because although i find steps one and two kindof helpful

I get to 3 and I just cannot for the life of me think of or remember a

time when I felt good! So I have given up on it.

good luck!

j

__________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Thank you for your great post - that helps a lot. I'll try and do as you say and make room for even the struggle. I'm good at watching thoughts, it is when the body takes over that I have trouble staying present and mindful. I have to learn to walk ' through the tunnel of fear', out the other side.

Thanks once again from the cold, grey wet South East of England!

Simone

[ACT_for_the_ Public] Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing it!> Also I think I need to development a lot more mindfulness generally!>Its the knee jerk automatic reactions that I have to work on, this>turning away from my own experience, turning away from the

anxiety. I>have failed to embrace it fully which I know that I need to do inorder >to move forward.> I am really interested in the mind/body link in all this and with me>it is thought=extreme panic reaction=run! xHi Simone,I am still struggling with this knowing what I should be doing but notquite doing it! HOwever, yesterday when I wanted to go straight hometo bed, I discovered that it was entirely possible to think that, andyet still keep on walking and carry on through the woods instead ofgetting the bus straight home! I confess I did cut the walk short andcome home not long after that rather than have a long extended strollas planned, but listening and not obeying straight away is a small step.Bearing in mind that its a fine line between avoidance and usingtechniques that help to calm you down, remembering there is the possibility that its not always possible to find

a choice whenextremely distressed, you might find this usefulhttp://www.heartmat h.org/free- services/ quick-coherence- technique. htmI cant do it, because although i find steps one and two kindof helpfulI get to 3 and I just cannot for the life of me think of or remember atime when I felt good! So I have given up on it.good luck!j____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail. yahoo.com

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[Guest guest]

Boom!!

Hee, hee, hee; ha, ha, ha; ho, ho, ho!

***************

Of course the problem is that sometimes

(often even) verbal rules are massively useful

so even if you learn how to let go of the rules

in your head in terms of their link to behavior,

you can't let go of them all 100%.

Your mind knows that, so it demands an accounting

( " how do you know if this rule needs to be followed?

You need to figure that out! " ) and there you are, back to verbal rules

A safer route:

You can learn to hold ALL thoughts lightly, independently

of whether they are follow. Not to worry.

You do not become unconscious ... you still

are aware of lightly held rules

You can learn to distinguish the observer (or awareness itself)

from the process of thinking.

And if you do those two, life itself will begin to teach you when to

actually follow a rule and when not to, the way you learned to

catch a ball or to walk.

Note that it is the most important thing but

using that method you can even learn when it is safe NOT to take

thoughts lightly (e.g., fusion when watching a movie

is mostly harmless)

But note that these are process rules ... they are not substitutable

for the processes themselves. That you have to do, and then give

time for the seeds to take root

- S

Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not doing

it!

>

> You can describe the process that scoops out the space for that new

way to be

> but you cannot give a verbal rule that will BE that process ...

because the point of the process is to move the logical mind over into

the passenger seat.

> Giving a verbal rule that will BE that process puts the mind back

into the driver seat.

> About the closest you can get to a verbal rule that will BE that

process is a paradoxical

> one - thus all those goofy Zen books eg " the key to enlightenment is

this: do not believe this "

> (sounds of bombs exploding as the mind implodes and the writers of

such books laugh hysterically)

So then would a workable verbal rule be " don't buy verbal rules? "

[Guest guest]

So then would a workable verbal rule be " don't buy verbal

rules? "

I wouldn’t go that far – rules can be quite

functional. We need them in so many areas of life – including using

the toilet. Perhaps, when the rule shows up, see if you can:

1.

Acknowledge it – what does it tell me to do

2.

Hold it lightly

3.

Look at it in terms of your experience

4.

Ask: Has this rule led me to do more or less with my life?

5.

If the answer is yes, then consider that it might help you again.

Tread lightly tho, b/c your experience now may not be like the old ones then.

6.

If the answer is no, then it’s time to look at doing

something else while carrying that rule and whatever your mind might be saying

with you (sometimes I think of the simple mantra “do the opposite at

those times.” Even small things matter.

-j

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

Director of Clinical Training

Director, Anxiety Disorders Research Program

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology

Social Science 369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

email: forsyth@...

Web

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Undergraduates interested in a research position in my lab can

apply at: www.albany.edu/~forsyth/undergradra.html

From: ACT_for_the_Public

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of woodman512000

Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:46 PM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: Re: Knowing what you should be doing but not

doing it!

>

> You can describe the process that scoops out the space for that new

way to be

> but you cannot give a verbal rule that will BE that process ...

because the point of the process is to move the logical mind over into

the passenger seat.

> Giving a verbal rule that will BE that process puts the mind back

into the driver seat.

> About the closest you can get to a verbal rule that will BE that

process is a paradoxical

> one - thus all those goofy Zen books eg " the key to enlightenment is

this: do not believe this "

> (sounds of bombs exploding as the mind implodes and the writers of

such books laugh hysterically)

So then would a workable verbal rule be " don't buy verbal rules? "