Sleep

December 21, 2003

Janet,

I'm awake too...with an almost migraine style headache (yuk) : (

wanna chat a bit??? I think we're in the same timezone...

I got 1:56am now...(pre-moderated)

Kev

> y'know i'm beginining to think normal sleep for me is daytime

sleep. I

> might be part vampire eh :-). I was always a night wanderer and

this

> trying to get me to sleep from 10 pm to 6 am might be barking up

the

> wrong tree. Anyway, not to worry things will straighten themselves

out

> one way or th other. janet

December 21, 2003

Hi Kev;

Sure I'm game. It's about 3 am here now. Your time zone says est +5 does

that put you in england or the other way, australia or soemthing? where

are you? :-)

janet

December 22, 2003

Michigan sweets...U.S. Eastern Time...

Kev

Good news, no more headache!!! I guess, excedrin did the

trick...Anywhoo...I'm up for the rest of the day, or shall I say,

it's my monday morning...No goin' back to bed for this kid...

Probably have to leave for " work " around (between) 5:00am - 8:00am...

Ahhhh, I LOVE flex time....hehehehe

I think you're in FLA, so we should share the same timezone...

Take care,

Kev

> Hi Kev;

>

> Sure I'm game. It's about 3 am here now. Your time zone says est

+5 does

> that put you in england or the other way, australia or soemthing?

where

> are you? :-)

>

> janet

December 22, 2003

Kev

What is it with Michiginites and the web. seems to be a lot of you on

the web. What large town or city are you near if you don't mind me

asking. I'm north of orlando by about 20 miles. I lived in orlando for

about 5 yrs and then moved up here to " retire " as this is an artsy

smartsy community of rich retirees of which i am not one. I live on ye

po' side of town and really like it. feel right at home when i never did

playing at being upper middle class.:-) the clothes alone were killers

back then. janet

December 22, 2003

My guess & the Mich & what seems to you about the web, I

dunno... " THE MOTOR CITY " maybe??? Think about it...many, many,

computers with int - access...where the cars all you folk drive, are

often designed... Just a guess...

Anywhoo...

Major city? Everyone usually " attaches " a bag stigma to " Detroit " ,

like it has a bad wrap, but nonetheless...It's just what I hear, but

it IS what it is...

I'm about 30 miles, north of Detroit. Far Eastern side of Mich.

Not on the water, but damn, damn close! Boating is huge here, but

not my hobby or interest at all. Kinda a " very upper class "

community/township, but it wasn't always this way. I've been in the

same spot since birth, 31 years now, so I've seen much come & go

around here. AND I AM damn proud to be a LOCAL where I live...

actually, not much has gone...much has come, and I mean, " cookie-

cutter subdivision's with VERY expensive homes seemed to have

populated every piece of what used to be: Free Roaming Land, where

back in the day, you could ride your 4-wheeler, Moto-X bike,

whatever you had, without ny Law, giving you a second thought

about it...

That's all gone now...that mentallity that is, with Mr. Law - but

there are " hidden " spots, we still find time to " ride " around here -

it's GREAT excercise!!!

hahahahaha...not gonna catch me, copper!!! j/k ; )

..It's funny to me. I look at these (starting price, like 6 to 4

years ago)$750,000 - I can only imagine what those houses are going

for now...Geeeze...

and I say to myself: Regardless of their price, and I am not in one

of the " new " subs anyways...

I say to myself...

" I used to stroll these fields as a kid, tear up your (what is now)

your lawn, or where YOUR basement is now on our recreational

vehicles... I just laugh... I LOVE WHERE I LIVE !!!

Good people, good town... I have an older home, nestle away from

those rich folk, who may have a house - but I have " A HOME " ...

Making any sense????

Sorry for ramblin...

Ya know, ya gotta be careful with the web...I'm not gonna disclose

the actual town, right now... 8-]

Kev

> Kev

> What is it with Michiginites and the web. seems to be a lot of you

on

> the web. What large town or city are you near if you don't mind me

> asking. I'm north of orlando by about 20 miles. I lived in orlando

for

> about 5 yrs and then moved up here to " retire " as this is an artsy

> smartsy community of rich retirees of which i am not one. I live

on ye

> po' side of town and really like it. feel right at home when i

never did

> playing at being upper middle class.:-) the clothes alone were

killers

> back then. janet

December 22, 2003

Don't blame you about non-disclosure, Kev. at all. probably a wise

decsion.

Ya, i used to wander the back streets of Boston in the wee hours of th

emorning without a care. Now i wouldn't go to wal-mart unless it was an

emergency eve in this small well coppered town. It's a shame these true

freeedoms we've lost. I did walk (oh heavens!!!!) after dark to and from

the the fireworkks display by myself last July 4, about a mile from

here. But I figured everyone would be out and about including all the

police which was true enough. No trouble that night but i wouldn't make

a habit on any old night..

I grew up racing sailboats but i'm not much of a sailor actually. To

tell you the truth i'm afraid of the water!!!!!! great sailor eh?

Yes i grew up in Boston and spent most of my adult life in Minn and

Wisconsin with a short disasterous 2 yr hitch in Connecticut whihc is

where i cracked up originally.

I'm in florida now for three reasons: the weather, i could afford a

house down here, and my sister lived down here. I like florida a lot and

doubt i could survive the rigors of new englanders again. They are

tough cookies, interesting funny but tough crowd. I like the laid back

atmosphere down here better i think. If i could have Boston all to

myself i'd go back but not with the Bostonians there. Love the

architecture and history and etc. food and all that. great pastries in

the NOrth End and all that. Seems so very long ago.

Now, i don't know what. I'm just trying to feel better and getting

somewhere actually. If i can crack this sleeping problem i think i'm

home free. It's a tough nut to crack. I don't know why i don't sleep

anymore.

Well we'll seee what happens.

Detroit. Only been there once, a run through on early sunday morning

with a big u-haul of my sister's furniture and goods. they just waved us

through customs both the canadians and the americans. we were coming

from boston up through Montreal and then down through detroit to

Minnesota. Had to stop at my ex-'s grandfather's house outside of

Montreal.

Well and i guess that's all for now. And you also hear about Devil's

night but not too much. When we came through detroit the place looked

deserted actually. hardly a soul about.

janet

January 4, 2004

<<I really think it is my lack of sleep that is fouling everything up. i

simply cannot fall asleep unless i take haldol and/or klonopin. I'mup

for a couple or few days and then i give in out of desperation. The

problem is that i have two or three or four streams of consciousness

going on in my brain and they will not turn off. Thye are all on " on "

all the time. Have you ever run into such a problme?>>

Hi Janet,

Let's really get to work on this. will be getting

back to you soon. She has asked for some more information.

How long have you been feeling the way you are feeling today?

When did this bout of not sleeping begin? I know you were

having a hard time with it right before Christmas, but then you

said it had gotten better. How long did the improvement last?

Can you describe the course of this problem?

If this is about sleeping, are we looking to treat the sleep difficulty,

or are we looking to treat the feelings that result from it?

Hugs,

Kim

January 4, 2004

Hi Kim;

Sleeping has really been erratic as has the depression but the bad

depression has been for a couple of days only. The bad sleep has been

for awhile with a hiatus about a week or two ago when it seemed the

chrry plum and aconitum napellus were working but then nothing again. as

far as success with sleep.

Part of the problem is mania or hypomania (never was interested in psych

labels much so never bothered to get to know the difference much). When

manic i don't care if i sleep or not so it's hard to tell or remember

whether i did or not.

Sleep has been a problem going on 16 yrs. It's always taken me drugs to

knock me out. I know when i first went psychotic (spontaneous, not due

to any drug or alcohol abuse) i had a horrible terror of dying if i

slept. i don't know if this is playing in here now or not. I just have

wide open eyes everytime i lie down to sleep. maybe i should just make

myself comfortable sitting up and drop off that way, or try it anyway.

I haven't slept for over an hour or two for eons and eons, 16 yrs. with

or without drugs. Like i said i've had a steady shattered consciousness

for all that time regardless once again of drugs or none. I literally

have several thought streams taking turns probably but it seems almost

simultaneous and not contentious or fourl mouthed or insulting or

anything. they get along well :-) and are even quite hilarious much of

the time. It's just that they never shut up. :-). Glory i get so tired

of listening to it all.

I guess that is about where i stand now. I'm takig more inositol (6-

500 mg caps as suggested strongly by Pfeiffer treatmetn center),

has what i take otherwise for supplements. if she can dig them

up. if not i can retiterate i guess but it's zinc, b vits, vit c, max

epa, cal/mag, acidophilus, a couple of other things, and also HY-C

(which seems with diet to be working very well on the back/kidney type

pain for now) adrenal support as suggested by . Also taking

melatonin up to about 2 mg now over the day as if i take a big dose i

get a very bad headache.

realy i think i need to take up jogging or something. oh ugh. i used to

walk miles and miles but have gotten too tired for that but i've been

more active lately so i'm rebuilding my strength again.

that's all folks, i guesss/

janet

January 4, 2004

Dear Janet,

You said:

<<I really think it is my lack of sleep that is fouling everything up. i

simply cannot fall asleep unless i take haldol and/or klonopin. I'mup

for a couple or few days and then i give in out of desperation. The

problem is that i have two or three or four streams of consciousness

going on in my brain and they will not turn off. Thye are all on " on "

all the time. Have you ever run into such a problme?>>

** Yes, the problem is not so uncommon. The problem is that taking the

Haldol and Klonopin is like a tiger chasing its tail. It's never going to

get any better until you stop.

When you say you stay up for a couple or a few days do you mean you don't

sleep at all at any time throughout the day?

Have you ever had Sleepytime tea? It kicked my butt the first time I had

it, lol.

Do you think the primary cause is the overactivity of your brain? If so,

we should be able to turn the level of activity down on this, allowing you

to get more sleep. Let me know.

Regards,

January 4, 2004

;

The activity of my brain is wide awake, no halluincations or delusions,

no mania or hypomania. I'm just wide awake and thinking and listening

and taking everything in.

I have to go to the grocery tomorrow andi'll pick up some sleepytime

tea. I'm notmuch of a tea fan buti'm getting better at it as i sometimes

have tension tamer with green tea (put both bags in the water). It

helps.

I did drop off for a second a few minutes ago btw. But only just and am

wide awake again. I think it'll calm down after a while and like you

said i just need to wait it out and not give in to panic and take the

drugs.

Anyway, our discusson has helped quite a bit. It was good to level with

you though i was rather afraid to as i'm sick of being nuts. :-) or

called nuts.

I didn't know it was so late. yikes. Too many cats to lie down so maybe

i'l just get comfy and fall asleep sitting up. Thans.

janet

June 15, 2008

Don't know if this topic has been previously covered because the search

function isn't working, however...

It takes a long time for me to get to sleep. The thoughts just keep

coming, boring and repetitive. After 20 years like this and trying many

things, I have an expectation that sleep won't come, even though I go

to bed exhausted. Even though I observe all the recommended sleep

hygiene sleep is elusive. I lie awake in a state of hypervigilance not

dissimilar to what is cultivated in the thought watching practices

except that is infused with tiredness then eventually frustration then

eventually despair. I even wonder if there is a relationship between

meditation and insomnia.

So I watch all this and let it go and more thoughts come and I watch

them,etc. Even when I stop watching, the thoughts keep coming. Does

anyone really know how sleep is meant to arrive if the neurotic mind

never stops? And how do ACT principles work in this situation?

June 15, 2008

Hi---not sure if this will help you, and not sure if it is

" ACT-complaint, " , but here goes:

Do you have trouble taking a deep breath when you are trying to go to

sleep? Feeling highly anxious?

If so, breathing out the distress, little by little, and breathing in

notion that " right now, at 2:30 am, I am OK. I have a roof over my

head, and food in the fridge. Things may not be exactly as I want them

to be, but right now, I am OK. " Keep this up until breathing eases.

And before you go to bed, it might be helpful to write out those

" boring and repetitive " thoughts as vividly and as completely as you

can, until you have gotten them down on paper or on computer screen

and can say to yourself: yes, that is exactly how I feel, what I am

thinking. And then feel what you feel.

Then go to bed and do the breathing out and the breathing in the

OKAYness right now.

Best luck,

> Don't know if this topic has been previously covered because the search

> function isn't working, however...

>

> It takes a long time for me to get to sleep. The thoughts just keep

> coming, boring and repetitive. After 20 years like this and trying many

> things, I have an expectation that sleep won't come, even though I go

> to bed exhausted. Even though I observe all the recommended sleep

> hygiene sleep is elusive. I lie awake in a state of hypervigilance not

> dissimilar to what is cultivated in the thought watching practices

> except that is infused with tiredness then eventually frustration then

> eventually despair. I even wonder if there is a relationship between

> meditation and insomnia.

>

> So I watch all this and let it go and more thoughts come and I watch

> them,etc. Even when I stop watching, the thoughts keep coming. Does

> anyone really know how sleep is meant to arrive if the neurotic mind

> never stops? And how do ACT principles work in this situation?

>

June 15, 2008

NHopkins208,

I have had difficult struggles with sleep in the past, so I know

exactly what you are going through. When I was in the military, my

fears of not getting a good night's sleep became so severe that I

routinely suffered from full-night insomnia. At one point, the

insomnia lasted for four straight days. But now I rarely get less

than eight hours. In fact, I have the opposite problem: I have a

hard time not falling asleep when I need to be awake.

In my struggles, I tried everything: breathing exercises, positive

imagery, guided meditation, and so on. None of it worked. In fact,

the efforts made it more difficult for me to get to sleep.

The only sleep hygiene that worked for me was to keep the room cold,

dark, and quiet. Maybe a hot bat and a glass of milk or a bowl of

cereal before bed (get some carbs in you). Everything else was

useless.

The problem with sleep is that it works differently from what we are

used to. Normally, when we encounter a problem, we try to solve it

with overt effort. When we experience insomnia, we think,

" OK, I'm going to get a plan together to stop this from happening.

I'm going to go to bed every night at 10PM on the dot. I'm going to

do some deep breathing exercises. I'm going to set the bed up

perfectly, and lie down and just sleep. I'm not going to let myself

get caught up in fear, nervousness, or negative thinking. I'm just

going to sleep like everyone else does. "

Unfortunately, when we take this approach, the mind becomes deeply

invested in it. It becomes emotionally attached to sleep. It starts

to think more about sleep, and to routinely check to see if the

efforts are working.

So you're lying in bed and the thoughts will come up " Is this

working? " " Am I sleeping yet? " " Stop thinking, go to sleep... " " I

wonder if this is going to work? " " Nothing works... " " F-ck! Go to

sleep!!! " 1AM.. 2AM.. 6AM.. alarm rings, time to go to work. You

know the rest.

Here is the lesson. You cannot control sleep. Only your body can

control sleep. You have to see it this way and let it be this way--

because that is how it really is. Sleep is not a conscious process,

it is entirely unconscious. So you have to take your hands off of it

and let your body determine the outcome. And when your body only

decides to get 3 hours of sleep, you need to let that happen--even

though it pisses you off. Let your body make the decision as to when

and whether it will fall asleep, even though the decision might screw

up your day. Your body will not let you die of insomnia, trust me.

It will get the sleep that it needs.

If you try to make sleep happen, if you try to take control of sleep

away from your body, if you try to enact a routine for minimizing the

effects of negative thoughts about sleep, sleep definitely will not

happen. Nothing overt will work, because the mind will get invested

in it. The entire process will become a huge, counterproductive

struggle.

When you lie in bed, thoughts are going to come up. That's normal.

You are not causing that, your mind is, so you don't need to get made

at yourself or blame yourself. When it happens, just let it happen.

And when you get pissed off, let yourself get pissed off. Just sit

back and let the feelings happen.

If you can, it helps to let go of your attachment to sleep. You

might just say " whatever " and stay awake. Treat it as if it isn't

your problem to worry about. So if you find yourself wide awake at

3AM, maybe part of you will be able to say " f-ck it " and just get up

and grab some food and surf the net for awhile. Enjoy the extra free

time.

The idea is to flow with whatever comes up in a light, unattached

manner. If you don't sleep, then you don't sleep. OK, what next?

Sure, the day will suck, but it's not like there is anything you can

do about that. Just trudge through it.

Psychologist Wegner has a theory about sleep which is highly

accurate (and consistent with ACT). He has shown that when an

individual tries really hard to do something in a deeply attached and

invested manner, the mind habitually checks to see if the efforts are

working. Wegner has shown in studies how this very process leads to

most stress-related insomnia. So you are not a special snowflake.

As for your questions,

<<<So I watch all this and let it go and more thoughts come and I

watch them,etc. Even when I stop watching, the thoughts keep coming.

Does anyone really know how sleep is meant to arrive if the neurotic

mind never stops?>>>

If you try to make the neurotic mind stop, it won't stop. If you

just abandon the whole struggle, and just " whatever " it, you will all

of a sudden wake up and realize that you fell asleep. You won't even

know that the neurotic mind stopped. It will just shut up when its

ready and then you will fall asleep. But not if you try to make that

happen.

Does that make sense? It's very paradoxical and counter-intuitive,

so if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Best wishes,

--

>

> Don't know if this topic has been previously covered because the

search

> function isn't working, however...

>

> It takes a long time for me to get to sleep. The thoughts just keep

> coming, boring and repetitive. After 20 years like this and trying

many

> things, I have an expectation that sleep won't come, even though I

go

> to bed exhausted. Even though I observe all the recommended sleep

> hygiene sleep is elusive. I lie awake in a state of hypervigilance

not

> dissimilar to what is cultivated in the thought watching practices

> except that is infused with tiredness then eventually frustration

then

> eventually despair. I even wonder if there is a relationship

between

> meditation and insomnia.

>

> So I watch all this and let it go and more thoughts come and I

watch

> them,etc. Even when I stop watching, the thoughts keep coming. Does

> anyone really know how sleep is meant to arrive if the neurotic

mind

> never stops? And how do ACT principles work in this situation?

>

July 1, 2008

Thanks for your considered response. I found it personally

helpful especially coming from someone with such impressive insomnia

credentials.

I have followed the lead of Wegner's research in to the ironic

effects of TRYING to get to sleep. Another good lead is the article:

The Role of Acceptance and Mindfulness in the Treatment of Insomnia.

Journal of Cognitive Psychotherapy; Spring 2005, Vol. 19 Issue 1

I think chronic onset insomnia is a big vicious hidden issue in

society and ACT offers the best hope for drug free treatment.

Does anyone know of any popular books which already focus on using

ACT for insomnia?

Regards

Nick

Canberra, Australia

> >

> > Don't know if this topic has been previously covered because the

> search

> > function isn't working, however...

> >

> > It takes a long time for me to get to sleep. The thoughts just

keep

> > coming, boring and repetitive. After 20 years like this and

trying

> many

> > things, I have an expectation that sleep won't come, even though

I

> go

> > to bed exhausted. Even though I observe all the recommended sleep

> > hygiene sleep is elusive. I lie awake in a state of

hypervigilance

> not

> > dissimilar to what is cultivated in the thought watching

practices

> > except that is infused with tiredness then eventually frustration

> then

> > eventually despair. I even wonder if there is a relationship

> between

> > meditation and insomnia.

> >

> > So I watch all this and let it go and more thoughts come and I

> watch

> > them,etc. Even when I stop watching, the thoughts keep coming.

Does

> > anyone really know how sleep is meant to arrive if the neurotic

> mind

> > never stops? And how do ACT principles work in this situation?

> >

>

October 4, 2008

Hi team,

Back on the issue on chronic insomnia(20 years)...For the past 7

years I have relied on small doses of a sleeping pill to stop the

negative mind rambling on long enough for me to fall asleep. In fact

I am psychologically addicted to the idea of using the pills to allow

me to sleep.

When I try with great resolve to stop taking a pill at night the

hours roll by and I become increasingly desparate and negative about

myself (totally fused)(and confused!)In this state in the dark I

don't see how I can do anything to take my life in a valued direction

(as in ACT). And it happens every night

In fact each sleepless hour leads me further into an exhaustion which

hinders me from following my values during my waking hours.

So I drop a little pill and fall asleep thereby achieving temporary

relief. The thing is, now I believe the accumulated effects of the

pills are also making me exhausted (and confused). But at least I

sleep. What a trap.

Is this ringing any bells for anyone?

Nick

October 4, 2008

Hi Nick,

This is not an ACT answer at all.

In the UK I can buy over the counter Paromol which is paracetamol

with a little dihydrocodeine in it (7.46mg) which isn't very much. It

nearly always puts me to sleep but it is not habit forming. I will

use it 4 to 5 nights a week and even if doesn't put me to sleep it

makes lying awake not so unpleasant. When I don't use it I don't miss

it because the difference between not taking it and taking it is

suttle. If I'm tired I will sleep without it.

Sometimes I don't take it at night but when I wake up at 2 to 3

in the morning I will take it then where it seems to be even more

effective. There is no hangover as it is not a sedative. If you take

it during the day you will not notice it and you can drive a car with

it.

Yes, it is not healthy, but lying awake all night is hell and I'm

sure that is far worse for you.

Kavy.

>

> Hi team,

>

> Back on the issue on chronic insomnia(20 years)...For the past 7

> years I have relied on small doses of a sleeping pill to stop the

> negative mind rambling on long enough for me to fall asleep. In

fact

> I am psychologically addicted to the idea of using the pills to

allow

> me to sleep.

> When I try with great resolve to stop taking a pill at night the

> hours roll by and I become increasingly desparate and negative

about

> myself (totally fused)(and confused!)In this state in the dark I

> don't see how I can do anything to take my life in a valued

direction

> (as in ACT). And it happens every night

>

> In fact each sleepless hour leads me further into an exhaustion

which

> hinders me from following my values during my waking hours.

>

> So I drop a little pill and fall asleep thereby achieving temporary

> relief. The thing is, now I believe the accumulated effects of the

> pills are also making me exhausted (and confused). But at least I

> sleep. What a trap.

>

> Is this ringing any bells for anyone?

>

> Nick

>

October 7, 2008

Hey Nick,

Is your problem with sleep onset, early morning awakening, or both?

Some options:

1) Stop the pill cold turkey and see how long you manage to stay

awake before your body forces you to sleep (rather than you having to

force your body to sleep, which is how it normally goes.) In other

words, do not go to bed. Do not turn the lights out. Just keep

functioning, getting work done, and let your body force you to

sleep. Do not make any effort to fall asleep, but do not make any

effort to stay awake.

The goal is to gather information about the problem by seeing how

your body responds.

You can also use the exercise as an opportunity to practice

mindfulness, defusion, and disattachment as your mind goes beserk

(which is what it will do).

Obviously, this is something that you only want to do when you are on

vacation from work and do not have to drive a vehicle. There is a

certain perverse gratification to it, because you are basically

telling your body " OK fine, go f*** yourself, we're staying awake! "

BTW, the world record is 11 days.

2) You could try tapering off the pill. You would obviously try

this before option 1. You might try, for example, taking 10% off the

dose each week. When the brutal insomnia kicks back in, you would go

back to the higher dose and hover there for a while (maybe a week or

two), and then try to come back down again.

3) You could work with your doctor to find a new medication. If you

take this route, be sure to research the HELL out of whatever

medicine you are taking at:

http://www.pubmed.org

and

http://www.askapatient.com

The first site basically has all of the published scientific studies

on medications and therapies (including ACT). The second site is a

site of user reviews of medication where you can get info on

effectivenes and side-effects. It is usually biased negative, but it

still gives you a sense of what to look for, and allows you to make a

relative comparison b/t different medications.

Remember, that there is nothing wrong with taking a medication if it

actually works for you and is safe (although this would be best as an

absolute last resort, because there are risks). But you aren't

breaking some ACT rule by using it (ACT is about what works period,

no dogma, no BS). Of course, your mind will tell you otherwise, but

just ignore it.

As for me, a combination of recent life stresses and a noisy upstairs

neighbor has me suffering from some insomnia as well (last night I

got about 1:30hrs, I normally get about 8). So you aren't alone.

What I usually try to do during insomnia periods is get hassle work

done in a defused, non-attached, non-expecting manner. So if I'm

awake at 3AM and can't sleep, I clean the house, or pay bills, or

something like that. Might as well, right? If you are going to

suffer, might as well kill two birds with one stone, and suffer while

you get things done.

I also try to channel the anger and frustration with the blatant

unreasonableness of life into disattachment and letting go. We're

only here for a short time, life is stubborn and doesn't like to

cooperate with our desires, so f-ck it. Go through the motions, do

your part, ride the highs, get upset during the lows, and don't take

any of it too seriously.

Best wishes and take all of this with a grain of salt,

--

>

> Hi team,

>

> Back on the issue on chronic insomnia(20 years)...For the past 7

> years I have relied on small doses of a sleeping pill to stop the

> negative mind rambling on long enough for me to fall asleep. In

fact

> I am psychologically addicted to the idea of using the pills to

allow

> me to sleep.

> When I try with great resolve to stop taking a pill at night the

> hours roll by and I become increasingly desparate and negative

about

> myself (totally fused)(and confused!)In this state in the dark I

> don't see how I can do anything to take my life in a valued

direction

> (as in ACT). And it happens every night

>

> In fact each sleepless hour leads me further into an exhaustion

which

> hinders me from following my values during my waking hours.

>

> So I drop a little pill and fall asleep thereby achieving temporary

> relief. The thing is, now I believe the accumulated effects of the

> pills are also making me exhausted (and confused). But at least I

> sleep. What a trap.

>

> Is this ringing any bells for anyone?

>

> Nick

>

October 7, 2008

DO NOT EVER STOP SLEEPING PILLS COLD TURKEY!!!!!

YOU COULD DIE!!!!!!!!

If you take sleeping pills each day you need to taper off of these

drugs.

If you need help with that I could give you advise, as I have done

this years ago.

Greg

> >

> > Hi team,

> >

> > Back on the issue on chronic insomnia(20 years)...For the past 7

> > years I have relied on small doses of a sleeping pill to stop the

> > negative mind rambling on long enough for me to fall asleep. In

> fact

> > I am psychologically addicted to the idea of using the pills to

> allow

> > me to sleep.

> > When I try with great resolve to stop taking a pill at night the

> > hours roll by and I become increasingly desparate and negative

> about

> > myself (totally fused)(and confused!)In this state in the dark I

> > don't see how I can do anything to take my life in a valued

> direction

> > (as in ACT). And it happens every night

> >

> > In fact each sleepless hour leads me further into an exhaustion

> which

> > hinders me from following my values during my waking hours.

> >

> > So I drop a little pill and fall asleep thereby achieving

temporary

> > relief. The thing is, now I believe the accumulated effects of

the

> > pills are also making me exhausted (and confused). But at least I

> > sleep. What a trap.

> >

> > Is this ringing any bells for anyone?

> >

> > Nick

> >

>

October 7, 2008

Greg,

I know that if you are taking a benzodiazepine (e.g., Xanax) for

sleep/anxiety, that cold turkey withdrawal is dangerous (can cause

seizures).

But does the danger apply to OTC pills as well? Or to Ambien? If

so, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the backup, and my apologies

to everyone for the bad advice.

--

> > >

> > > Hi team,

> > >

> > > Back on the issue on chronic insomnia(20 years)...For the past

7

> > > years I have relied on small doses of a sleeping pill to stop

the

> > > negative mind rambling on long enough for me to fall asleep. In

> > fact

> > > I am psychologically addicted to the idea of using the pills to

> > allow

> > > me to sleep.

> > > When I try with great resolve to stop taking a pill at night

the

> > > hours roll by and I become increasingly desparate and negative

> > about

> > > myself (totally fused)(and confused!)In this state in the dark

I

> > > don't see how I can do anything to take my life in a valued

> > direction

> > > (as in ACT). And it happens every night

> > >

> > > In fact each sleepless hour leads me further into an exhaustion

> > which

> > > hinders me from following my values during my waking hours.

> > >

> > > So I drop a little pill and fall asleep thereby achieving

> temporary

> > > relief. The thing is, now I believe the accumulated effects of

> the

> > > pills are also making me exhausted (and confused). But at least

I

> > > sleep. What a trap.

> > >

> > > Is this ringing any bells for anyone?

> > >

> > > Nick

> > >

> >

>

October 8, 2008

HI

The sleeping pill Ambien, known in Australia as Stillnox or Stildem

(Zolpidem tartrate)operates very similarly to benzodiapines. Therfore

care should be taken in coming off it. One doctor in the UK has had

considerable success with managed withdrawals from benzodiapines and

her website is well worth exploring for anyone trapped in addiction

to them... http://www.benzo.org.uk She has an on-line manual called

Benzodiazepines: How They Work and How to Withdraw

by Professor C H Ashton.

My issue is with both onset insomnia and early morning waking. I have

tried tapering off but mind always finds a reason to take the dose

back to a higher level. I have hovered at various levels for many

years but don't relinquish the pills altogether. Why? because so far

it has been more soul destroying to lie awake endlessly and

compulsively watching doom & gloom mind chatter than to ingest a

chemical and get some sleep.

Nick

October 9, 2008

Any perscrition sleep medicine should be tapered. The thing with

Ambien and the newer sleep medicines is that most people think they

are safer because they are not Benodiazepines, However they still

have the same actions on the nerves in the brain as Benzo's.

Marketing trick, Hummm?

Over the counter sleep meds are usually just allergy medicines (

benadryl) so I don't think you need to taper off.

The big drugs companies are master advertisers and unless you spend

many months researching it is hard to find the tricks they play on

their customers.

Greg

> > > >

> > > > Hi team,

> > > >

> > > > Back on the issue on chronic insomnia(20 years)...For the

past

> 7

> > > > years I have relied on small doses of a sleeping pill to stop

> the

> > > > negative mind rambling on long enough for me to fall asleep.

In

> > > fact

> > > > I am psychologically addicted to the idea of using the pills

to

> > > allow

> > > > me to sleep.

> > > > When I try with great resolve to stop taking a pill at night

> the

> > > > hours roll by and I become increasingly desparate and

negative

> > > about

> > > > myself (totally fused)(and confused!)In this state in the

dark

> I

> > > > don't see how I can do anything to take my life in a valued

> > > direction

> > > > (as in ACT). And it happens every night

> > > >

> > > > In fact each sleepless hour leads me further into an

exhaustion

> > > which

> > > > hinders me from following my values during my waking hours.

> > > >

> > > > So I drop a little pill and fall asleep thereby achieving

> > temporary

> > > > relief. The thing is, now I believe the accumulated effects

of

> > the

> > > > pills are also making me exhausted (and confused). But at

least

> I

> > > > sleep. What a trap.

> > > >

> > > > Is this ringing any bells for anyone?

> > > >

> > > > Nick

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 9, 2008

The http://www.benzo.org.uk site is not run by Professer Ashton. It

is run by a man who, rightfully, believes he was permenently damaged

by benzodiazapines. The Ashton manual is a very valuable resource and

is the standard in the UK for withdrawing from Benzo's.

However, I would not recommend joining the support community there. I

did and though they helped with my taper, I firmly believe now that

more damage was done by their help. They are a very well meaning

people, but it really is only a place to learn how to be sick.

Enough on that.

Greg

>

> HI

>

> The sleeping pill Ambien, known in Australia as Stillnox or

Stildem

> (Zolpidem tartrate)operates very similarly to benzodiapines.

Therfore

> care should be taken in coming off it. One doctor in the UK has had

> considerable success with managed withdrawals from benzodiapines

and

> her website is well worth exploring for anyone trapped in addiction

> to them... http://www.benzo.org.uk She has an on-line manual

called

> Benzodiazepines: How They Work and How to Withdraw

> by Professor C H Ashton.

>

> My issue is with both onset insomnia and early morning waking. I

have

> tried tapering off but mind always finds a reason to take the dose

> back to a higher level. I have hovered at various levels for many

> years but don't relinquish the pills altogether. Why? because so

far

> it has been more soul destroying to lie awake endlessly and

> compulsively watching doom & gloom mind chatter than to ingest a

> chemical and get some sleep.

>

> Nick

>

October 9, 2008

Amen on the usefulness of the Ashton Manual. Amen on staying away from the online support community. I was on it for a brief time when I began my taper in 2006, but I gave it up shortly thereafter.

Best of luck to any and all of you wanting to get off a benzo or a benzo-like drug. It is worth it. And for some people it's not that bad. There's a psychiatrist I've met who works in the chemical dependency field. I'm not chemically dependent (although I did have to get off klonopin), but I had occasion to meet him. His take on benzos is that they should be used for NO LONGER than three weeks. Period. He's really down on all the family medicine docs who prescribe them without adequate information.

I suspect a lot of people are getting sleep medicinces from docs who aren't that up on their true nature.

Laurel, sad today but trying to hold it in my internal snuggy for such emotions :-)

Subject: Re: SleepTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 1:56 PM

The http://www.benzo. org.uk site is not run by Professer Ashton. It is run by a man who, rightfully, believes he was permenently damaged by benzodiazapines. The Ashton manual is a very valuable resource and is the standard in the UK for withdrawing from Benzo's. However, I would not recommend joining the support community there. I did and though they helped with my taper, I firmly believe now that more damage was done by their help. They are a very well meaning people, but it really is only a place to learn how to be sick.Enough on that.Greg >> HI > > The sleeping pill Ambien, known in Australia as Stillnox or Stildem

> (Zolpidem tartrate)operates very similarly to benzodiapines. Therfore > care should be taken in coming off it. One doctor in the UK has had > considerable success with managed withdrawals from benzodiapines and > her website is well worth exploring for anyone trapped in addiction > to them... http://www.benzo. org.uk She has an on-line manual called > Benzodiazepines: How They Work and How to Withdraw> by Professor C H Ashton.> > My issue is with both onset insomnia and early morning waking. I have > tried tapering off but mind always finds a reason to take the dose > back to a higher level. I have hovered at various levels for many > years but don't relinquish the pills altogether. Why? because so far > it has been more soul destroying to lie awake endlessly and >

compulsively watching doom & gloom mind chatter than to ingest a > chemical and get some sleep.> > Nick>

October 19, 2008