Re: Learned Helplessness

[Guest guest]

Thank you for sharing your painful journey

so openly, Kavy.

I’m glad the book’s helpful. Somewhere

within those pages you’ll find one of my favorite quotes; one that I come

back to again and again when I feel like giving up:

“Success is not final. Failure is

not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts.” – Sir Winston

Churchill.

All the best

Cheers,

Russ

Dr

PO Box 5079

Alphington, Melbourne

Vic 3078, Australia

www.thehappinesstrap.com

www.actmindfully.com.au

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of kavyvinson

Sent: Saturday, 26 July 2008 6:00

PM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject:

Learned Helplessness

I was reading about learned helplessness the other

day. They followed

through life a group of working and midlle class kids who had the

same IQ. But the working class kids never achieved much because they

had the belief they wouldn't go far.

I was pretty useless aty school but in later life I did two technical

engineering courses where the maths went to first year degree. I

couldn't do maths but I sat down with book and had a go. Guess what,

maths became my favourite subject and I was getting 100% in the exams.

After that I tried to learn the guitar but I felt it was

hopeless, 'only gifted people can play a musical instrument', I

thought. I really really intrinsically believed this and it held me

back for years as I would keep giving up when I stopped making

progress. But eventually I got it and became quite good. I am now

learning keyboards.

I can see how learned helplessness and low self esteem has worked

against me all my life and still does. I a now defusing from the

thoughts rather than fighting them. But I am in great pain that a

large part of my life has gone by now. I look at old photo's of

myself and see that I was in fact handsome, like many girls said, but

I never believed it at the time. But learned helplessness is still

working right now, it is telling me that I will never achieve much

because it is too late, and that maybe I was nice looking once but

not anymore. A guy at work who is 38, short, fat, bald, and walks

like penguin, but has the most fantastic girlfriend because he has

the cheek of the devil.

Most men pop singers have hight to medium voices, but I have a deep

voice. So I told myself I would never be able to sing. And then

Stephin Merritt comes along from the Magnetic Fields and he has a

very deep voice and it is just awesome. He's my favourite singer and

I wish my voice was as deep as his.

I am getting older am I am sad at a life that has passed me by. But

there was a guy on the radio the other day who learnt how to play

piano at 40 and brought out his first record at 45. Most people don't

believe they have any tallent, but if you would really love to be in

a band at least give it a try before you give up.

Can you see how learned helplessness and low self esteem constantly

tells me I can't do anything or that it is too late. All the way

through it has done this. Now I don't want to become high or manic,

that would ruin everything. But I'm hoping not to let my life pass me

by anymore. I know that in ten years time I will think I was young

then - 'if only I had tried harder', I will say. I'm always doing

this. I now see people of ten years younger than me as youngsters.

So with ACT I am getting a life although it is painful to do so.

Thanks Stevin, , And Russ. I have your book, Russ, and I consider

it my handbook on ACT - it's concise and to the point.

Kavy.

[Guest guest]

In my last post I pressed the 'send' button by mistake instead of the

edit. I hope it is OK. That chap that is 38, also has teeth that

stick out all over the place. As a sufferer of mild BDD being like

that would have destroyed me. Just goes to show how your thoughts

affect your life and are your destiny.

I do have concerns about how I can be so open. I hope everyone can

forgive me.

Kavy.

>

> I was reading about learned helplessness the other day. They

followed

> through life a group of working and midlle class kids who had the

> same IQ. But the working class kids never achieved much because

they

> had the belief they wouldn't go far.

>

> I was pretty useless aty school but in later life I did two

technical

> engineering courses where the maths went to first year degree. I

> couldn't do maths but I sat down with book and had a go. Guess

what,

> maths became my favourite subject and I was getting 100% in the

exams.

>

> After that I tried to learn the guitar but I felt it was

> hopeless, 'only gifted people can play a musical instrument', I

> thought. I really really intrinsically believed this and it held me

> back for years as I would keep giving up when I stopped making

> progress. But eventually I got it and became quite good. I am now

> learning keyboards.

>

> I can see how learned helplessness and low self esteem has worked

> against me all my life and still does. I a now defusing from the

> thoughts rather than fighting them. But I am in great pain that a

> large part of my life has gone by now. I look at old photo's of

> myself and see that I was in fact handsome, like many girls said,

but

> I never believed it at the time. But learned helplessness is still

> working right now, it is telling me that I will never achieve much

> because it is too late, and that maybe I was nice looking once but

> not anymore. A guy at work who is 38, short, fat, bald, and walks

> like penguin, but has the most fantastic girlfriend because he has

> the cheek of the devil.

>

> Most men pop singers have hight to medium voices, but I have a deep

> voice. So I told myself I would never be able to sing. And then

> Stephin Merritt comes along from the Magnetic Fields and he has a

> very deep voice and it is just awesome. He's my favourite singer

and

> I wish my voice was as deep as his.

>

> I am getting older am I am sad at a life that has passed me by. But

> there was a guy on the radio the other day who learnt how to play

> piano at 40 and brought out his first record at 45. Most people

don't

> believe they have any tallent, but if you would really love to be

in

> a band at least give it a try before you give up.

>

> Can you see how learned helplessness and low self esteem constantly

> tells me I can't do anything or that it is too late. All the way

> through it has done this. Now I don't want to become high or manic,

> that would ruin everything. But I'm hoping not to let my life pass

me

> by anymore. I know that in ten years time I will think I was young

> then - 'if only I had tried harder', I will say. I'm always doing

> this. I now see people of ten years younger than me as youngsters.

>

> So with ACT I am getting a life although it is painful to do so.

> Thanks Stevin, , And Russ. I have your book, Russ, and I

consider

> it my handbook on ACT - it's concise and to the point.

>

> Kavy.

>

[Guest guest]

Awesome post. I've had much the same struggles.

Thanks for sharing.

--- kavyvinson wrote:

> In my last post I pressed the 'send' button by

> mistake instead of the

> edit. I hope it is OK. That chap that is 38, also

> has teeth that

> stick out all over the place. As a sufferer of mild

> BDD being like

> that would have destroyed me. Just goes to show how

> your thoughts

> affect your life and are your destiny.

>

> I do have concerns about how I can be so open. I

> hope everyone can

> forgive me.

>

> Kavy.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I was reading about learned helplessness the other

> day. They

> followed

> > through life a group of working and midlle class

> kids who had the

> > same IQ. But the working class kids never achieved

> much because

> they

> > had the belief they wouldn't go far.

> >

> > I was pretty useless aty school but in later life

> I did two

> technical

> > engineering courses where the maths went to first

> year degree. I

> > couldn't do maths but I sat down with book and had

> a go. Guess

> what,

> > maths became my favourite subject and I was

> getting 100% in the

> exams.

> >

> > After that I tried to learn the guitar but I felt

> it was

> > hopeless, 'only gifted people can play a musical

> instrument', I

> > thought. I really really intrinsically believed

> this and it held me

> > back for years as I would keep giving up when I

> stopped making

> > progress. But eventually I got it and became quite

> good. I am now

> > learning keyboards.

> >

> > I can see how learned helplessness and low self

> esteem has worked

> > against me all my life and still does. I a now

> defusing from the

> > thoughts rather than fighting them. But I am in

> great pain that a

> > large part of my life has gone by now. I look at

> old photo's of

> > myself and see that I was in fact handsome, like

> many girls said,

> but

> > I never believed it at the time. But learned

> helplessness is still

> > working right now, it is telling me that I will

> never achieve much

> > because it is too late, and that maybe I was nice

> looking once but

> > not anymore. A guy at work who is 38, short, fat,

> bald, and walks

> > like penguin, but has the most fantastic

> girlfriend because he has

> > the cheek of the devil.

> >

> > Most men pop singers have hight to medium voices,

> but I have a deep

> > voice. So I told myself I would never be able to

> sing. And then

> > Stephin Merritt comes along from the Magnetic

> Fields and he has a

> > very deep voice and it is just awesome. He's my

> favourite singer

> and

> > I wish my voice was as deep as his.

> >

> > I am getting older am I am sad at a life that has

> passed me by. But

> > there was a guy on the radio the other day who

> learnt how to play

> > piano at 40 and brought out his first record at

> 45. Most people

> don't

> > believe they have any tallent, but if you would

> really love to be

> in

> > a band at least give it a try before you give up.

> >

> > Can you see how learned helplessness and low self

> esteem constantly

> > tells me I can't do anything or that it is too

> late. All the way

> > through it has done this. Now I don't want to

> become high or manic,

> > that would ruin everything. But I'm hoping not to

> let my life pass

> me

> > by anymore. I know that in ten years time I will

> think I was young

> > then - 'if only I had tried harder', I will say.

> I'm always doing

> > this. I now see people of ten years younger than

> me as youngsters.

> >

> > So with ACT I am getting a life although it is

> painful to do so.

> > Thanks Stevin, , And Russ. I have your book,

> Russ, and I

> consider

> > it my handbook on ACT - it's concise and to the

> point.

> >

> > Kavy.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello EveryoneBeen a while since I have replied to ACT emailsBut I do read them all with great interest.Kavy you have sparked my interest from yourwritings on Learned Helplessness.I think most of us were conditioned one way oranother in this area growing up. If not then we havedeveloped self doubt and helplessness by comparingourselves to others who appear to be far moreattractive or intelligent or talented. We fail to see thatwe could be the same and that in fact we are the same.All us human beings are here on the same journey, weall suffer the same things.You have achieved so much Kevy, you know you haveyet you still doubt yourself.Your life hasnt been wasted because you have learneda great deal about yourself and broken thru barriers toachieve....Some people NEVER get in touch with

themselves andgo thru their whole lives never knowing that they could change if they wanted to.You are blessed my friend just because you have foundyourself.You are now teaching others by sharing your life story.It is never too late to do anything, the point is to do it.I think its very important to not compare ourselves withothers. We are who we are as individuals and we areprecious each and every one of us.Keep moving forward and doing whatever it is yourheart desires to do and you WILL do it.Peace and love to you Pamela--

Find a better answer, faster with the new Yahoo!7 Search - Start Here.

[Guest guest]

Kavy, thank you so much for the article on learned helplessness. Somehow I have never run across that term in all my years seeking happiness, but when I read the article I became almost lightheaded and dizzy - it is a PERFECT description of the demon I have fought all my life. Now I know what direction to look for answers.

Thanks again.

Toni

Learned Helplessness

Here's an article on learned helplessness:

http://www.thisisawar.com/DepressionLearned.htm

When I first became depressed I was sent to see a psychiatrist who I thought would talk to me and find out what is wrong. Instead he asked me a few questions on symptoms and prescribed an antidepressant. My despair went throught the roof, I had no faith in drugs as I knew I had emotional problems. I didn't get better so he prescribed lithium saying I was a manic depressive who stayed in the depressed half all the time.

I had just bought a book on depression and had read that M/D was a serious psychotic illness. I wanted to be normal like my friends, and meet a nice girl, but now they were telling me I was a nutter. 6 months later I was no better so he put me on Stelazine, an antipsychotic. It's lucky I took an overdose of them and they so they stopped prescribing them. I now know what they could have done to me - incurable grimacing, twisting and turning, and poking out the tongue. I hate them for putting on such a dangerous drug. Anyway, I didn't feel anything and survived - it just goes to show how quickly you build a tolerance to these useless drugs.

To cut along story short, I discharged myself from psychiatry and started working on myself. This wasn't easy because everywhere I turned there was an article on the genetics of depression which was considered to be simply a fact. I then bought a book by DR Dorothty Rowe who blew all the genetic theories out of the water and I started to feel more hopeful. Over the years I collected more and more books like this, greatly increasing my hope.

Today I don't believe genes have much to do with my depression and I feel very optimistric indeed, despite my chronic depression. Psychiatry is a major cause of learned helplessness: their were arguments so powerful at times (with drug company money), I sometimes just wanted to die. CBT and ACT is full of optimism. Thanks, you guys, and gang, and Dr Burns, for shinning a beautiful light that's really helping me.

Kavy

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 1/27/2009 7:26 AM

[Guest guest]

You know this is so strange. I have found support for what I am going

through from so many places that I had no idea were around. So, I have

so many people telling me that they think I am the most wonderful person

and to stay strong. (because I keep feeling bad about myself) But the

only person I care about listening to is the person that doens't want to

talk to me right now. That thought I was the best thing he ever saw and

has changed his mind about me. This is causing my mind to believe that

when someone gets to really know me then they see that I really have a

problem. Somewhere deep in me I feel defective and this is how I am

keeping the illusion going.

I hope this makes sense. Have no clue how to fix it. Just know it is

happening at this point.

Robyn

[Guest guest]

Robyn, what is happening right now is that your thoughts are giving you garbage:

People tell you that you're wonderful

BUT the person you care about the most is not telling you that

He used to think you were the best

BUT he changed his mind about that (hmmmmmm, did he actually say that, or is your mind assuming that?)

SO, because he apparently changed his mind about you, it's obvious that once people really get to know you, they see you have a problem

And deep down you feel defective

You are keeping the illusion going

Robyn, I hope you see that your thoughts are spinning things that just don't make sense!

You know what to do with those thoughts, don't you?

Yes! Just invite them in, notice them, thank them, and then gently let them go.

Over and over and over, if necessary.

And I have to question how well this person really knows you in just a couple of weeks. I feel that I've known you even longer through this list, and I can say with certainty that you are one of the most thoughtful, kind, compassionate persons I've ever encountered.

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness

You know this is so strange. I have found support for what I am going through from so many places that I had no idea were around. So, I have so many people telling me that they think I am the most wonderful person and to stay strong. (because I keep feeling bad about myself) But the only person I care about listening to is the person that doens't want to talk to me right now. That thought I was the best thing he ever saw and has changed his mind about me. This is causing my mind to believe that when someone gets to really know me then they see that I really have a problem. Somewhere deep in me I feel defective and this is how I am keeping the illusion going. I hope this makes sense. Have no clue how to fix it. Just know it is happening at this point.Robyn

[Guest guest]

Helena,

I feel the same about you.

You are right again. My head cannot seem to get in here so thanks for

being there to remind me of this.

No he never said that. He said he couldn't deal with things and he was

kind about it. (that makes me feel bad about it) But he he counldn't

open up on it. Then just shut it down and said I want to not talk

again. That is what is pushing me over the edge here. My abandonment

stuff runs very large here. According to what i know about him, he

doesn't usually end things this way. He always stays friends. So, why

now? Why end it like this with me? I know I need to stop trying to

figure that out but yes I am assuming. He never said anything but we

are making each other miserable. (Mind says Miserable = You are a

miserable person) I just take things like this and roll with it. I

swear I do this in every relationship I have ever had. It had not once

worked out for me. And I never had found anyone that can deal with me.

I always find a way to mess it up. I don't know how this keeps

happening to me .

Sorry, doing it again.

Thanks Helena, for being my voice of reason. It is temporarily gone.

Robyn

Helena wrote:

>

> Robyn, what is happening right now is that your thoughts are giving

> you garbage:

>

> People tell you that you're wonderful

> BUT the person you care about the most is not telling you that

> He used to think you were the best

> BUT he changed his mind about that (hmmmmmm, did he actually say that,

> or is your mind assuming that?)

> SO, because he apparently changed his mind about you, it's obvious

> that once people really get to know you, they see you have a problem

> And deep down you feel defective

> You are keeping the illusion going

>

> Robyn, I hope you see that your thoughts are spinning things that just

> don't make sense!

> You know what to do with those thoughts, don't you?

> Yes! Just invite them in, notice them, thank them, and then gently

> let them go.

> Over and over and over, if necessary.

>

> And I have to question how well this person really knows you in just a

> couple of weeks. I feel that I've known you even longer through this

> list, and I can say with certainty that you are one of the most

> thoughtful, kind, compassionate persons I've ever encountered.

>

> Helena

>

>

> * Re: Learned Helplessness

>

> You know this is so strange. I have found support for what I am going

> through from so many places that I had no idea were around. So, I

> have

> so many people telling me that they think I am the most wonderful

> person

> and to stay strong. (because I keep feeling bad about myself) But the

> only person I care about listening to is the person that doens't

> want to

> talk to me right now. That thought I was the best thing he ever

> saw and

> has changed his mind about me. This is causing my mind to believe

> that

> when someone gets to really know me then they see that I really

> have a

> problem. Somewhere deep in me I feel defective and this is how I am

> keeping the illusion going.

>

> I hope this makes sense. Have no clue how to fix it. Just know it is

> happening at this point.

>

> Robyn

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think I have come to the conclusion that I never could understand why

the people I meet are not as open and honest as I am. I think this

could be where I get tripped up. I always think others are as honest as

I am with them. I continue to ignore the signs. But I don't understand

how I keep getting caught up with those same people. I always believe

what ever I am told and never get it. I don't know where to look this up

in the ACT book. Values yes. Stupidity in love? You know I welcome

all replies even if I need to hear it.

Thanks,

Robyn

[Guest guest]

Yes, Robyn, I have a hard time understanding that, too--why people aren't as honest as I am. But we don't HAVE to understand that, or them. I have learned to accept that each of us has different coping mechanisms, and beating around the bush instead of outright honesty is one such coping mechanism. Not for me, but others need to do that, apparently.

You say you keep getting caught up with people who aren't as honest as you are. Why? Because, in your own words, you believe what you are told. Wow, that is such crap.

Robyn, PEOPLE LIE.

You have a brain. You are not gullible. You are smart. That you expect other people to be as honest as you are is somewhat egotistical; it is saying that everyone else must be like me and have the same coping mechanisms that I have--I am honest and so should everyone else be, dammit.

In the end, your honesty will work for you in getting through this crisis. But you can't expect the same from others.

I'm sorry if I overstepped. I am not a great example of wisdom, but I can sure dish it out! Take everything I say with a grain of salt, please!

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness

I think I have come to the conclusion that I never could understand why the people I meet are not as open and honest as I am. I think this could be where I get tripped up. I always think others are as honest as I am with them. I continue to ignore the signs. But I don't understand how I keep getting caught up with those same people. I always believe what ever I am told and never get it. I don't know where to look this up in the ACT book. Values yes. Stupidity in love? You know I welcome all replies even if I need to hear it.Thanks,Robyn

[Guest guest]

No Helena, I needed that. I need to figure out why I do this. I don't

know why I have not gotten this before. Is it ego? Am I not being

honest with myself? You know I am very emotional and I just roll with

my emotions. Yes I over think things but not things like this. I do

things regularly without thinking about it first. My son said, Mom you

have spent the last 44 years saying I feel. I want you to spend the

next 44 years saying I think. I need to think about things like this

before I act. And Helena you are very wise.

Robyn

Helena wrote:

>

> Yes, Robyn, I have a hard time understanding that, too--why people

> aren't as honest as I am. But we don't HAVE to understand that, or

> them. I have learned to accept that each of us has different coping

> mechanisms, and beating around the bush instead of outright honesty is

> one such coping mechanism. Not for me, but others need to do that,

> apparently.

>

> You say you keep getting caught up with people who aren't as honest as

> you are. Why? Because, in your own words, you believe what you are

> told. Wow, that is such crap.

>

> Robyn, PEOPLE LIE.

>

> You have a brain. You are not gullible. You are smart. That you

> expect other people to be as honest as you are is somewhat

> egotistical; it is saying that everyone else must be like me and have

> the same coping mechanisms that I have--I am honest and so should

> everyone else be, dammit.

>

> In the end, your honesty will work for you in getting through this

> crisis. But you can't expect the same from others.

>

> I'm sorry if I overstepped. I am not a great example of wisdom, but I

> can sure dish it out! Take everything I say with a grain of salt, please!

>

> Helena

>

>

> * Re: Learned Helplessness

>

> I think I have come to the conclusion that I never could

> understand why

> the people I meet are not as open and honest as I am. I think this

> could be where I get tripped up. I always think others are as

> honest as

> I am with them. I continue to ignore the signs. But I don't

> understand

> how I keep getting caught up with those same people. I always believe

> what ever I am told and never get it. I don't know where to look

> this up

> in the ACT book. Values yes. Stupidity in love? You know I welcome

> all replies even if I need to hear it.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Robyn

>

>