Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Hi, Just wanted to let everyone know that Russ has got his great new website up and running at www.thehappinesstrap.com there are some great e-courses to do, just for laymen as well as professionals and lots of free stuff too. I have read the book and this is a great support for those of us continuing on the journey on our own without the support of a therapist. I am going to sign up for an e-course, I'll let you know how I get on!. Journey Gently Simone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Wow, thanks Simone You got onto that quickly – it only just went up on Tuesday. (You must have been subscribed to my newsletter??) Just a note – at the moment it is only two-thirds completed, and the only e-course running as of now is for professionals. (Obviously non-professionals can do it, but it’s written for therapists and coaches on how to do ACT, rather than for the general public to apply ACT to themselves). I will let this list know when everything is up and running and The Happiness Trap e-course is up and running – which should be just before the book’s USA and UK release, at the end of May. All the best Cheers, Russ Dr PO Box 5079 Alphington, Vic 3078 Tel 0425 782 055 www.actmindfully.com.au From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of adrianandboo Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2008 11:38 PM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: The Happiness Trap Hi, Just wanted to let everyone know that Russ has got his great new website up and running at www.thehappinesstrap.com there are some great e-courses to do, just for laymen as well as professionals and lots of free stuff too. I have read the book and this is a great support for those of us continuing on the journey on our own without the support of a therapist. I am going to sign up for an e-course, I'll let you know how I get on!. Journey Gently Simone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 My therapist attended the ACT SI Conference last summer so I was able to have her purchase a copy of The Happiness Trap for me. I'm looking forward to the e-course you will be offering in June. I've spent some time browsing the website and it indeed looks fabulous. Christi [ACT_for_the_ Public] The Happiness Trap Hi,Just wanted to let everyone know that Russ has got his great new website up and running at www.thehappinesstra p.com there are some great e-courses to do, just for laymen as well as professionals and lots of free stuff too. I have read the book and this is a great support for those of us continuing on the journey on our own without the support of a therapist. I am going to sign up for an e-course, I'll let you know how I get on!.Journey GentlySimone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yap, proper breathing is vital to your overall health. One who deeply study breathing was Professor Buteyko, a Russian physician. " More than 40 years of research have produced the Buteyko Method, which can recondition and normalise the breathing and restore the body's most important function. " check this site: http://www.normalbreathing.com Dr. Artour Rakhimov Ph.D. - Buteyko breathing teacher and educator ....and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buteyko_method and check google with keyword: Buteyko method > > > > > > I am fairly new to ACT having just worked through The Mindfulness & > Acceptance Workbook for Anxiety before going on holiday to Madeira > for 3 weeks. I took with me Russ ' book The Happiness Trap. I > am deeply indebted to you Russ for not giving up on writing the book > but in fact writing a thoroughly enjoyable and easy to read piece of > literature. > > > > I first entered a psychiatric unit in 1962 for depression and it > has returned at various times over the years since. > > > > The piece I most liked in the book was the struggle switch which > has identified my life in the years since 1962. I have endlessly > struggled to find ways of curing the depression without success. > > > > The other thing I have struggled with at suicidal periods is a > desire for peace from the incessant mental noise which I now see as > the endless thinking process that we all indulge in. > > > > These two things, the struggle switch and letting thoughts come and > go without taking too much notice of them seems to me, at this moment > in time, to be the final pieces in the jigsaw for me. > > > > > > > > > > I do find difficulty however in your description of 'deep breaths' > and 'ten deep breaths'. > > > > I breathe from my diaphragm which is as deep as I or anyone can > breath so by definition all my breaths are deep. I can however take a > very small breath where I inhale just enough air to fill one nostril. > I can also take a very big breath whereby I inflate the whole lungs. > The normal breathing rate at rest is supposed to be around 5 litres > per minute. Lung capacity of the normal adult is about 5 - 6 litres. > > > > The problem I find with your ten deep breaths is, that unless they > are spread over 10 minutes i.e. one breath per minute the person > doing this will be hyperventilating which causes a shift in ph > values. I feel that the hyperventilating then causes anxiety and of > course anxiety causes hyperventilation anyway. This I feel can well > end up in a vicious cycle. > > > > I may be talking complete and utter bunkum but I would appreciate > any comments. I would also appreciate anyone who can tell me where > and how this common saying of 'deep' breaths came from. > > > > LOL > > > > ivor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hi , Sorry to have to contradict you but at no point does The Happiness Trap call them “calming” breaths, or suggest that you think “calming”. If you are breathing in this manner to try and “calm” yourself, then you are using it as a relaxation technique – trying to get rid of feelings of stress and anxiety. In The Happiness Trap it is called “Ten Deep Breaths”, and it is a mindfulness technique – an aid to allowing our thoughts and feelings to be as they are - not a relaxation technique, which is about trying to get rid of unwanted feelings. (The book makes clear that while relaxation often happens as a result, this is a bonus, not the goal.) There are many breathing techniques out there – especially in different schools of yoga - but almost all of them are relaxation techniques. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with relaxation techniques. Obviously they’re very helpful for lots of people – including yourself. After all, we don’t want to become “mindfulness Nazis” – insisting that you never try to control your feelings under any circumstances. In ACT, acceptance of feelings is recommended only a) when control is impossible when control is possible, but the methods used for control impair your quality of life. Relaxation techniques are useful, but they have limitations. For example, they generally only work when you’re in a safe, non-challenging situation – in a therapist’s office, a yoga class, listening to that CD in your bedroom, lying in the park etc. If you’re in a stressful, challenging situation – giving a talk to a large audience, sitting an important exam, fighting with the person you love- no relaxation technique known to humankind is going to relax you. You are going to have a fight-or-flight response, and you can’t prevent that. The human body has evolved over millions of years to respond this way to challenges. However, you can bring mindfulness to the experience, so you can respond effectively. So I just want to be clear: as soon as you start using any mindfulness technique to control how you feel, it’s not a mindfulness technique any more. This goes for defusion, acceptance, observing self, and so on. We fully expect that as you practice ACT in your life that feelings of anxiety will reduce – but that’s a bonus, not the goal. The goal is mindful valued living. Finally keep in mind, breathing with intent to calm is potentially risky, because it can suck you back in to the agenda of control. For example, I can’t recall the exact details, but there was some study by Georg Eifert, ( Forsyth’s co-author on several ACT books) where people were asked to use diaphragmatic breathing to control their anxiety – and it actually increased their experiential avoidance. In Summary: a) practice relaxation techniques in environments and situations where they have a chance of actually working and practice them in the service of values such as enhancing health and wellbeing, nurturing your body and mind – not in the service of trying to get rid of anxiety. All the best Cheers, Russ Russ PO Box 5079 Alphington, Vic 3058 www.thehappinesstrap.com www.actmindfully.com.au From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of shelleyrae2u Sent: Sunday, 1 February 2009 3:30 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: The Happiness Trap I really wanted to reply to your thoughts on breathing. This was a major problem for me and when I would try " deep " breathing it would definitely make me feel worse! First of all I would like to say I love how the Happiness Trap refers to them as " calming " breaths " . When you start saying deep I think people take in long breaths which always left me gasping for air. The idea is not necessarily to take in deep breaths but to slow your breathing down and to breath through your nose (which automatically slows you down)! Think " calming " and drop your shoulders as you exhale. A couple of years ago a doctor told me how important this could be for my anxiety. Again, like was stated earlier, this is not a cure but it helps you keep your wits a little more during stressful times. There were a couple of things I did which helped me. One is I took a yoga class. It was a certain type of yoga and I can't remember the name (I think it was called " hatha " ). With this type they are not about getting physically fit but focus on meditation and breathing even in uncomfortable poses. This was a start but didn't completely help me. Then I bought the stress eraser. It is not cheap (around $200) but well worth it!! It really helped me work on my breathing. I know Hearthmath also makes one called an Emwave. They are small so you can take them anywhere. I won't go into how it works but it showed me how erratic my breathing could be! It also helped me see how to breath. I don't want to go into how it works (you can look it up online) but it does work! At first I was like many of you and would start hypervintilating. But this can be a good thing because you can practice your acceptance plus it will make you realize how much this contributes to your anxiety!! Again, this is not a cure all but I have to say it helps me tremendously!!! I didn't realize how many times I was holding my breath or would begin hypervenitilating in anxious situations. I try to check in throughout the day to see how I am breathing. There have actually been times when I have been practicing and it causes me to be so relaxed that I want to sleep. It is funny because now if I think a person looks anxious I will look and sure enough they will be breathing fast and high in their chest! I hope this helps! > > > I am fairly new to ACT having just worked through The Mindfulness & Acceptance Workbook for Anxiety before going on holiday to Madeira for 3 weeks. I took with me Russ ' book The Happiness Trap. I am deeply indebted to you Russ for not giving up on writing the book but in fact writing a thoroughly enjoyable and easy to read piece of literature. > > I first entered a psychiatric unit in 1962 for depression and it has returned at various times over the years since. > > The piece I most liked in the book was the struggle switch which has identified my life in the years since 1962. I have endlessly struggled to find ways of curing the depression without success. > > The other thing I have struggled with at suicidal periods is a desire for peace from the incessant mental noise which I now see as the endless thinking process that we all indulge in. > > These two things, the struggle switch and letting thoughts come and go without taking too much notice of them seems to me, at this moment in time, to be the final pieces in the jigsaw for me. > > > > > I do find difficulty however in your description of 'deep breaths' and 'ten deep breaths'. > > I breathe from my diaphragm which is as deep as I or anyone can breath so by definition all my breaths are deep. I can however take a very small breath where I inhale just enough air to fill one nostril. I can also take a very big breath whereby I inflate the whole lungs. The normal breathing rate at rest is supposed to be around 5 litres per minute. Lung capacity of the normal adult is about 5 - 6 litres. > > The problem I find with your ten deep breaths is, that unless they are spread over 10 minutes i.e. one breath per minute the person doing this will be hyperventilating which causes a shift in ph values. I feel that the hyperventilating then causes anxiety and of course anxiety causes hyperventilation anyway. This I feel can well end up in a vicious cycle. > > I may be talking complete and utter bunkum but I would appreciate any comments. I would also appreciate anyone who can tell me where and how this common saying of 'deep' breaths came from. > > LOL > > ivor > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hi! I am so sorry for stating the calming breaths were from your book!! I read so much and when I was writing this I didn't go back to check. I could have sworn it was from the Happiness Trap but obviously not. I should know better than to rely on my memory!!!! I understand what you are saying about it being a form of control. It has been a wonderful thing for me in my everyday life. I have found that most of the time I walked around hyperventilating so I think this helps my entire system work more efficiently! I so hope you forgive my lack of checking before speaking. I certainly didn't mean to offend!! I have gotten so much from your writings and from your posts, you are definitely not someone I would want to cause any distress! > > > > > > I am fairly new to ACT having just worked through The Mindfulness & > Acceptance Workbook for Anxiety before going on holiday to Madeira > for 3 weeks. I took with me Russ ' book The Happiness Trap. I > am deeply indebted to you Russ for not giving up on writing the book > but in fact writing a thoroughly enjoyable and easy to read piece of > literature. > > > > I first entered a psychiatric unit in 1962 for depression and it > has returned at various times over the years since. > > > > The piece I most liked in the book was the struggle switch which > has identified my life in the years since 1962. I have endlessly > struggled to find ways of curing the depression without success. > > > > The other thing I have struggled with at suicidal periods is a > desire for peace from the incessant mental noise which I now see as > the endless thinking process that we all indulge in. > > > > These two things, the struggle switch and letting thoughts come and > go without taking too much notice of them seems to me, at this moment > in time, to be the final pieces in the jigsaw for me. > > > > > > > > > > I do find difficulty however in your description of 'deep breaths' > and 'ten deep breaths'. > > > > I breathe from my diaphragm which is as deep as I or anyone can > breath so by definition all my breaths are deep. I can however take a > very small breath where I inhale just enough air to fill one nostril. > I can also take a very big breath whereby I inflate the whole lungs. > The normal breathing rate at rest is supposed to be around 5 litres > per minute. Lung capacity of the normal adult is about 5 - 6 litres. > > > > The problem I find with your ten deep breaths is, that unless they > are spread over 10 minutes i.e. one breath per minute the person > doing this will be hyperventilating which causes a shift in ph > values. I feel that the hyperventilating then causes anxiety and of > course anxiety causes hyperventilation anyway. This I feel can well > end up in a vicious cycle. > > > > I may be talking complete and utter bunkum but I would appreciate > any comments. I would also appreciate anyone who can tell me where > and how this common saying of 'deep' breaths came from. > > > > LOL > > > > ivor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hi , Absolutely no need to apologise - and definitely no offense taken. The fact is, relaxation techniques can be very valuable. Guess what: I use them myself at times, in situations where I know they’re likely to work, such as listening to a CD in my bedroom. I repeat: we are not mindfulness Nazis - we don't try to clamp down on all “control” under all circumstances. That would be very rigid – and ACT is about flexibility. We don’t HAVE TO accept every thought and every feeling in every moment. We practice acceptance when control is impossible or makes life worse or gets in the way of valued living. If control is possible, improves life, and helps valued living, then go for it. We just advise caution, as we can easily get sucked back in to unworkable control agendas. When we use diaphragmatic breathing as a mindfulness exercise, it gives us the best of all worlds: it stops the unhelpful physiological effects of hyperventilation; it improves mindfulness skills; we can use it any situation; and as a bonus, in non-challenging situations, it often spontaneously gives rise to relaxation. But when we use it as a relaxation exercise, it’s relatively limited, because it’s unlikely to relax you unless you do it in a non-challenging situation. All the best, Cheers, Russ Russ PO Box 5079 Alphington, Vic 3058 www.thehappinesstrap.com www.actmindfully.com.au From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of shelleyrae2u Sent: Sunday, 1 February 2009 10:32 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: The Happiness Trap Hi! I am so sorry for stating the calming breaths were from your book!! I read so much and when I was writing this I didn't go back to check. I could have sworn it was from the Happiness Trap but obviously not. I should know better than to rely on my memory!!!! I understand what you are saying about it being a form of control. It has been a wonderful thing for me in my everyday life. I have found that most of the time I walked around hyperventilating so I think this helps my entire system work more efficiently! I so hope you forgive my lack of checking before speaking. I certainly didn't mean to offend!! I have gotten so much from your writings and from your posts, you are definitely not someone I would want to cause any distress! > > > > > > I am fairly new to ACT having just worked through The Mindfulness & > Acceptance Workbook for Anxiety before going on holiday to Madeira > for 3 weeks. I took with me Russ ' book The Happiness Trap. I > am deeply indebted to you Russ for not giving up on writing the book > but in fact writing a thoroughly enjoyable and easy to read piece of > literature. > > > > I first entered a psychiatric unit in 1962 for depression and it > has returned at various times over the years since. > > > > The piece I most liked in the book was the struggle switch which > has identified my life in the years since 1962. I have endlessly > struggled to find ways of curing the depression without success. > > > > The other thing I have struggled with at suicidal periods is a > desire for peace from the incessant mental noise which I now see as > the endless thinking process that we all indulge in. > > > > These two things, the struggle switch and letting thoughts come and > go without taking too much notice of them seems to me, at this moment > in time, to be the final pieces in the jigsaw for me. > > > > > > > > > > I do find difficulty however in your description of 'deep breaths' > and 'ten deep breaths'. > > > > I breathe from my diaphragm which is as deep as I or anyone can > breath so by definition all my breaths are deep. I can however take a > very small breath where I inhale just enough air to fill one nostril. > I can also take a very big breath whereby I inflate the whole lungs. > The normal breathing rate at rest is supposed to be around 5 litres > per minute. Lung capacity of the normal adult is about 5 - 6 litres. > > > > The problem I find with your ten deep breaths is, that unless they > are spread over 10 minutes i.e. one breath per minute the person > doing this will be hyperventilating which causes a shift in ph > values. I feel that the hyperventilating then causes anxiety and of > course anxiety causes hyperventilation anyway. This I feel can well > end up in a vicious cycle. > > > > I may be talking complete and utter bunkum but I would appreciate > any comments. I would also appreciate anyone who can tell me where > and how this common saying of 'deep' breaths came from. > > > > LOL > > > > ivor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hi Russ You seem to be inferring here that it is not possible to hyperventilate when using diaphragmatic breathing. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but, if I take 12 number one litre breaths per minute I am hyperventilating whether I use my diaphragm or my upper chest. ivor RE: Re: The Happiness Trap Hi , Absolutely no need to apologise - and definitely no offense taken. The fact is, relaxation techniques can be very valuable. Guess what: I use them myself at times, in situations where I know they’re likely to work, such as listening to a CD in my bedroom. I repeat: we are not mindfulness Nazis - we don't try to clamp down on all “control” under all circumstances. That would be very rigid – and ACT is about flexibility. We don’t HAVE TO accept every thought and every feeling in every moment. We practice acceptance when control is impossible or makes life worse or gets in the way of valued living. If control is possible, improves life, and helps valued living, then go for it. We just advise caution, as we can easily get sucked back in to unworkable control agendas. When we use diaphragmatic breathing as a mindfulness exercise, it gives us the best of all worlds: it stops the unhelpful physiological effects of hyperventilation; it improves mindfulness skills; we can use it any situation; and as a bonus, in non-challenging situations, it often spontaneously gives rise to relaxation. But when we use it as a relaxation exercise, it’s relatively limited, because it’s unlikely to relax you unless you do it in a non-challenging situation. All the best, Cheers, Russ Russ PO Box 5079 Alphington, Vic 3058 www.thehappinesstrap.com www.actmindfully.com.au From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of shelleyrae2uSent: Sunday, 1 February 2009 10:32 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: The Happiness Trap Hi!I am so sorry for stating the calming breaths were from your book!! I read so much and when I was writing this I didn't go back to check. I could have sworn it was from the Happiness Trap but obviously not. I should know better than to rely on my memory!!!!I understand what you are saying about it being a form of control. It has been a wonderful thing for me in my everyday life. I have found that most of the time I walked around hyperventilating so I think this helps my entire system work more efficiently!I so hope you forgive my lack of checking before speaking. I certainly didn't mean to offend!! I have gotten so much from your writings and from your posts, you are definitely not someone I would want to cause any distress!> >> > > > I am fairly new to ACT having just worked through The Mindfulness & > Acceptance Workbook for Anxiety before going on holiday to Madeira > for 3 weeks. I took with me Russ ' book The Happiness Trap. I > am deeply indebted to you Russ for not giving up on writing the book > but in fact writing a thoroughly enjoyable and easy to read piece of > literature.> > > > I first entered a psychiatric unit in 1962 for depression and it > has returned at various times over the years since. > > > > The piece I most liked in the book was the struggle switch which > has identified my life in the years since 1962. I have endlessly > struggled to find ways of curing the depression without success.> > > > The other thing I have struggled with at suicidal periods is a > desire for peace from the incessant mental noise which I now see as > the endless thinking process that we all indulge in.> > > > These two things, the struggle switch and letting thoughts come and > go without taking too much notice of them seems to me, at this moment > in time, to be the final pieces in the jigsaw for me.> > > > > > > > > > I do find difficulty however in your description of 'deep breaths' > and 'ten deep breaths'.> > > > I breathe from my diaphragm which is as deep as I or anyone can > breath so by definition all my breaths are deep. I can however take a > very small breath where I inhale just enough air to fill one nostril. > I can also take a very big breath whereby I inflate the whole lungs. > The normal breathing rate at rest is supposed to be around 5 litres > per minute. Lung capacity of the normal adult is about 5 - 6 litres.> > > > The problem I find with your ten deep breaths is, that unless they > are spread over 10 minutes i.e. one breath per minute the person > doing this will be hyperventilating which causes a shift in ph > values. I feel that the hyperventilating then causes anxiety and of > course anxiety causes hyperventilation anyway. This I feel can well > end up in a vicious cycle.> > > > I may be talking complete and utter bunkum but I would appreciate > any comments. I would also appreciate anyone who can tell me where > and how this common saying of 'deep' breaths came from.> > > > LOL> > > > ivor> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hyperventilating just means breathing faster than 12 breaths per minute – regardless of whether or not they are deep/diaphragmatic or shallow/upper chest. Almost always, as people learn to breathe with their diaphragm, breathing spontaneously slows to a normal rate – simply because unless you’re absolutely forcing the air in and out, a deep breath from the diaphragm takes much longer that a shallow breath from the upper chest. Cheers, Russ Russ PO Box 5079 Alphington, Vic 3058 www.thehappinesstrap.com www.actmindfully.com.au From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Ivor Bateman Sent: Monday, 2 February 2009 6:06 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: The Happiness Trap Hi Russ You seem to be inferring here that it is not possible to hyperventilate when using diaphragmatic breathing. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but, if I take 12 number one litre breaths per minute I am hyperventilating whether I use my diaphragm or my upper chest. ivor Re: The Happiness Trap Hi! I am so sorry for stating the calming breaths were from your book!! I read so much and when I was writing this I didn't go back to check. I could have sworn it was from the Happiness Trap but obviously not. I should know better than to rely on my memory!!!! I understand what you are saying about it being a form of control. It has been a wonderful thing for me in my everyday life. I have found that most of the time I walked around hyperventilating so I think this helps my entire system work more efficiently! I so hope you forgive my lack of checking before speaking. I certainly didn't mean to offend!! I have gotten so much from your writings and from your posts, you are definitely not someone I would want to cause any distress! > > > > > > I am fairly new to ACT having just worked through The Mindfulness & > Acceptance Workbook for Anxiety before going on holiday to Madeira > for 3 weeks. I took with me Russ ' book The Happiness Trap. I > am deeply indebted to you Russ for not giving up on writing the book > but in fact writing a thoroughly enjoyable and easy to read piece of > literature. > > > > I first entered a psychiatric unit in 1962 for depression and it > has returned at various times over the years since. > > > > The piece I most liked in the book was the struggle switch which > has identified my life in the years since 1962. I have endlessly > struggled to find ways of curing the depression without success. > > > > The other thing I have struggled with at suicidal periods is a > desire for peace from the incessant mental noise which I now see as > the endless thinking process that we all indulge in. > > > > These two things, the struggle switch and letting thoughts come and > go without taking too much notice of them seems to me, at this moment > in time, to be the final pieces in the jigsaw for me. > > > > > > > > > > I do find difficulty however in your description of 'deep breaths' > and 'ten deep breaths'. > > > > I breathe from my diaphragm which is as deep as I or anyone can > breath so by definition all my breaths are deep. I can however take a > very small breath where I inhale just enough air to fill one nostril. > I can also take a very big breath whereby I inflate the whole lungs. > The normal breathing rate at rest is supposed to be around 5 litres > per minute. Lung capacity of the normal adult is about 5 - 6 litres. > > > > The problem I find with your ten deep breaths is, that unless they > are spread over 10 minutes i.e. one breath per minute the person > doing this will be hyperventilating which causes a shift in ph > values. I feel that the hyperventilating then causes anxiety and of > course anxiety causes hyperventilation anyway. This I feel can well > end up in a vicious cycle. > > > > I may be talking complete and utter bunkum but I would appreciate > any comments. I would also appreciate anyone who can tell me where > and how this common saying of 'deep' breaths came from. > > > > LOL > > > > ivor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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