Re: Mendeleyev's Dream

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Try Breggin's site, http://www.breggin.com/. He is a

psychiatrist that the drug industry hates. Zanax created more anxiety

in people after trials of two months so they only published the first

six weeks. Breggin fought and eventually got the rest of the

data and exposed the fraud but only years after the drug had caused

so much damage. This comes from his book Toxic Psychiatry.

Also try Jay ph, The Miising Gene (Psychiatry, Heredity, and the

Fruitless Search for Genes).

Another site is: http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/ . Has loads of

information about how useless and dangerous antidepressants are.

Dorothy Rowe and Smail (psychologists) are also very critical

of psychiatry.

Some of my ACT books are critical of the of the genetic theory of

unhappiness and distress.

K.

>

> I just finished reading Mendeleyev's Dream, and it has given me

quite a bit to consider. A large portion of the book is dedicated to

the history of chemistry and therefore a lot of relevant history of

the chemical pharmacological industry. From reading this book, I find

that I quickly and easily agree with the suggestions that " big

pharma " is really interested in control, money, and a dependent

public. I would like to do some more research into the history and

roots of modern pharmacology. Does anyone know if there is a

particular specialist on this that I should be reading?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Let me poke a stick at this particular wasp's nest - either I'll get

stung or someone else will - oh boy!

Read more about it, to what end?

To arm ourselves with information? And once armed, what do we do with

it?

And are we who hate Big Pharma (or say we do) going to stop taking all

pharmaceuticals? Antibiotics, for example?

Ask yourself that question when you're really sick, not when you're

feeling healthy and smug. (By " you " I don't mean you, - I mean

all of us, including me. No one smugger than me!)

It is so easy to dismiss " others " as being the ones who are venal and

greedy. Yes, greed exists, but the mechanism is more complicated than

that, and we are not immune.

If we want to make Big Pharma our cause ... what we we going to do

about it that is positive & helpful?

OK, now I have dropped the stick and am running as hard as I can ...

>

> I just finished reading Mendeleyev's Dream, and it has given me

quite a bit to consider. A large portion of the book is dedicated to

the history of chemistry and therefore a lot of relevant history of

the chemical pharmacological industry. From reading this book, I find

that I quickly and easily agree with the suggestions that " big pharma "

is really interested in control, money, and a dependent public. I

would like to do some more research into the history and roots of

modern pharmacology. Does anyone know if there is a particular

specialist on this that I should be reading?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

A psychiatrist once put me on an antidepressant and after eight

months I started twitching all over, when I came off the drug the

twitching became worse and my muscles kept cramping up. Every time I

stopped still it felt as though thousands of tiny insects were

crawling through me. This lasted for two years and worried the life

out of me. I also read Breggin's book and was horrified at the

damage I may have done to my brain, and the chronic depression it may

have caused.

The psychiatrist was unsypathetic and didn't think there was much

hope for me and my depression. Psychiatry destroyed my self esteem

making me feel useless and worthless. They created an arch enemy.

Dr L. Whitfield, in his book The Truth about Depression,

say's that anti depressants only work for a few weeks to a few

months, absolutely useless for something like depression.

Anyway, I feel bad about about bringing up this horrible subject so

this is the last I shall talk about and get back to the stuff about

ACT.

Before I go, I would just like to say that they now know that the

brain can repair itself when you get your stress levels under control

and a yourself a little happier. Especially so if you take some ultra

pure EPA (without DHA) for a while. So don't worry too much if you

are using anti depressants. (Research by Dr Basant K. Puri).

K

> >

> > I just finished reading Mendeleyev's Dream, and it has given me

> quite a bit to consider. A large portion of the book is dedicated to

> the history of chemistry and therefore a lot of relevant history of

> the chemical pharmacological industry. From reading this book, I

find

> that I quickly and easily agree with the suggestions that " big

pharma "

> is really interested in control, money, and a dependent public. I

> would like to do some more research into the history and roots of

> modern pharmacology. Does anyone know if there is a particular

> specialist on this that I should be reading?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

There is a very informative book called " America Fooled: The Truth

About Antidepressants, Antipsychotics and How We Have Been Deceived "

by Dr. . It goes into quite a bit of history and is

saddening to see how America has gone the pharmacy route instead of

other non-drug therapies that are much more helpful. I have been on

an older class anti-depressant for 15 years for OCD. I have tried

numerous times to come off of it but have been unable to b/c of the

side effects. Right now I am simply taking the drug to avoid the

withdrawal side effects; it is definitely not helping me. The more

this information is brought out the better. The over-prescribing of

anti-depressants, especially for teens and children, is destroying lives.

..

> > >

> > > I just finished reading Mendeleyev's Dream, and it has given me

> > quite a bit to consider. A large portion of the book is dedicated to

> > the history of chemistry and therefore a lot of relevant history of

> > the chemical pharmacological industry. From reading this book, I

> find

> > that I quickly and easily agree with the suggestions that " big

> pharma "

> > is really interested in control, money, and a dependent public. I

> > would like to do some more research into the history and roots of

> > modern pharmacology. Does anyone know if there is a particular

> > specialist on this that I should be reading?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> I feel bad about about bringing up this horrible subject so

> this is the last I shall talk about and get back to the stuff about

> ACT.

-

Now I feel bad about you feeling bad. Or am I just having the thought

that I feel bad? I get confused sometimes.

Big Pharma is certainly an appropriate topic for a list where many

folks either have used or are contemplating the use of antidepressants

& other meds.

I too have read a bunch of books about the questionable value of

antidepressants etc. The most recent I attempted was " Comfortably

Numb. " I wanted to like it, but the author's tone bothered me - he

wrote about ordinary Americans taking antidepressants as if they were

not real people but zombies. I think it was more that he was an

inexperienced writer than anything else & did not get the editing help

he needed - there is probably good content in the book somewhere, but

the abrasive approach will turn off too many people whom he might

otherwise reach & help.

I should have just posted my " wasp's nest " as a lecture to myself &

have left everyone else out of it - I am like the author of the book I

just cited - I am used to ranting & raving about big, vaguely defined

social ills such as the overuse of psychopharmaceuticals, but lately I

have wondered if such behavior is useful to me or anyone else. I guess

I've concluded it's not.

If I am really concerned about an issue, I have decided, I will indeed

take the time to educate myself ... but at the same time I will need

to bear in mind my limitations & also try to assign a value to what I

am doing, so I have a direction to take my concern.

I find this stance ends up radically limiting the # of things I am

willing to get seriously involved in ... because there is so little

time. It also helps me keep my rage factor down a notch, which I find

helpful. We live in an inflamed culture & I would rather go the other

way & do some healing. But as you see even my earlier post was of the

" inflamed " variety, so I have a lot to learn.

Be well, take the fish oil. I've tried that. Hasn't seemed to do much

for me but I do read good things about it.

--R.

[Guest guest]

To what end? Well, I am trying to get a better understanding of my own culture, I suppose. When we get up in the morning, we say that we see the sun rising, but we know that it doesn't really rise, right? Still, when I don't think about it, I tend to think as if the sun moves across the sky instead of the earth turning. Having been raised in an extremely conservative and devoutly religious home, I am also interested in exploring what cultural influences have made it ok to my family to trust the drug companies, while it is still not ok to trust in alternative medicine, like acupuncture.When making decisions about my family's health, I am sometimes faced with conflicts between what I feel is an ok treatment and what seems to work or be good for us. I would like to be able to make more informed decisions, and I am one who thinks that understanding the

roots and history of any group will help you understand how to react to it now. Subject: Re: Mendeleyev's DreamTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 5:42 AM

> I feel bad about about bringing up this horrible subject so

> this is the last I shall talk about and get back to the stuff about

> ACT.

-

Now I feel bad about you feeling bad. Or am I just having the thought

that I feel bad? I get confused sometimes.

Big Pharma is certainly an appropriate topic for a list where many

folks either have used or are contemplating the use of antidepressants

& other meds.

I too have read a bunch of books about the questionable value of

antidepressants etc. The most recent I attempted was "Comfortably

Numb." I wanted to like it, but the author's tone bothered me - he

wrote about ordinary Americans taking antidepressants as if they were

not real people but zombies. I think it was more that he was an

inexperienced writer than anything else & did not get the editing help

he needed - there is probably good content in the book somewhere, but

the abrasive approach will turn off too many people whom he might

otherwise reach & help.

I should have just posted my "wasp's nest" as a lecture to myself &

have left everyone else out of it - I am like the author of the book I

just cited - I am used to ranting & raving about big, vaguely defined

social ills such as the overuse of psychopharmaceutica ls, but lately I

have wondered if such behavior is useful to me or anyone else. I guess

I've concluded it's not.

If I am really concerned about an issue, I have decided, I will indeed

take the time to educate myself ... but at the same time I will need

to bear in mind my limitations & also try to assign a value to what I

am doing, so I have a direction to take my concern.

I find this stance ends up radically limiting the # of things I am

willing to get seriously involved in ... because there is so little

time. It also helps me keep my rage factor down a notch, which I find

helpful. We live in an inflamed culture & I would rather go the other

way & do some healing. But as you see even my earlier post was of the

"inflamed" variety, so I have a lot to learn.

Be well, take the fish oil. I've tried that. Hasn't seemed to do much

for me but I do read good things about it.

--R.

[Guest guest]

Hi Randy,

I too have had not much success with fish oils but I found out after

taking them for about a year that they work best whern the depression

is over. And Dr Puri seemed to sugggest in one of his books that

hight levels of stress destroy the EPA before it reaches the brain.

So I remain in hope for full recovery.

I'm concerned I may have worried people who take anti-depressants so

I would like to point out that Dr Basant K. Puri is a psychiatrist

and a world leading expert in brain imaging techniques. He has

treated many people with chronic depression who have been on all

sorts of medication and restored their brains to good health using

ultra pure EPA (omega 3). So don't get too worried.

Hi ,

I liked your post. Although I find psychiatry despicable there are

many good people working in it. Most psychiatrists are ordinary folk

doing what they think is best. It is in the corridors of power it

starts to go wrong. Loren Mosher was a top psychiatrist - I think

second in command at the American Psychiatric Association (APA)- who

resigned in disgust when biopsychiatry and genetic theory took over

the APA. He said they had sold out to the drug companies.

And not even the employees and directors of drug companies are

particularly bad, it is just collectively it starts goes tp wrong.

And directors have to keep the share price up or they lose their

jobs. So it all goes around in circles.

Psychiatry did me in when they kept saying it is in your genes which

turned out to be just marketing. When I felt genetically stuck it was

terrying and it ruined my self esteem - 'everyone else finds life

easy but not me', I thought, 'I'm inadequate'. I'm so pleased we have

moved on so much since then.

I think ACT is fabulous. I had some moments of real peace today

diffusing from things. It's weird because I haven't changed anything

in outer reality yet, everything is still the same but I felt

different.

K

> > I feel bad about about bringing up this horrible subject so

> > this is the last I shall talk about and get back to the stuff

about

> > ACT.

>

> -

>

> Now I feel bad about you feeling bad. Or am I just having the

thought

> that I feel bad? I get confused sometimes.

>

> Big Pharma is certainly an appropriate topic for a list where many

> folks either have used or are contemplating the use of

antidepressants

> & other meds.

>

> I too have read a bunch of books about the questionable value of

> antidepressants etc. The most recent I attempted was " Comfortably

> Numb. " I wanted to like it, but the author's tone bothered me - he

> wrote about ordinary Americans taking antidepressants as if they

were

> not real people but zombies. I think it was more that he was an

> inexperienced writer than anything else & did not get the editing

help

> he needed - there is probably good content in the book somewhere,

but

> the abrasive approach will turn off too many people whom he might

> otherwise reach & help.

>

> I should have just posted my " wasp's nest " as a lecture to myself &

> have left everyone else out of it - I am like the author of the

book I

> just cited - I am used to ranting & raving about big, vaguely

defined

> social ills such as the overuse of psychopharmaceuticals, but

lately I

> have wondered if such behavior is useful to me or anyone else. I

guess

> I've concluded it's not.

>

> If I am really concerned about an issue, I have decided, I will

indeed

> take the time to educate myself ... but at the same time I will need

> to bear in mind my limitations & also try to assign a value to what

I

> am doing, so I have a direction to take my concern.

>

> I find this stance ends up radically limiting the # of things I am

> willing to get seriously involved in ... because there is so little

> time. It also helps me keep my rage factor down a notch, which I

find

> helpful. We live in an inflamed culture & I would rather go the

other

> way & do some healing. But as you see even my earlier post was of

the

> " inflamed " variety, so I have a lot to learn.

>

> Be well, take the fish oil. I've tried that. Hasn't seemed to do

much

> for me but I do read good things about it.

>

> --R.

>

[Guest guest]

Just to chip in on this interesting discussion....My view is that no extremes are helpful. There are people who fall into a very deep depression and cannot function at all (let alone engage in therapy) until they are put on antidepressants and you can see visible differences in them after a few weeks. In those cases, I think antidepressants can be very helpful and give energy and motivation to engage in therapy. I do not see them as a long term solution and I do not see them as a sole solution to a more fulfilling life. I do agree that antidepressants are overprescribed and are given to people who are going through lows in life. Also I believe that therapy can be much more helpful than

antidepressants if you are functioning reasonably well, but are experiencing symptoms you would rather not have. In terms of antipsychotics - I think that anyone who has ever come across a person with a psychotic illness would agree that antipsychotics help a great deal. Unfortunately, the science has still not developed an antipsychotic without serious side-effects. However, without antipsychotics many people would be confined to psychiatric units. This is not to say that therapy is not helpful in treating people with psychosis (e.g. an ACT study showed reductions in re-hospitalisations following an ACT intervention). So, at the end of the day I believe it all comes down to what is workable for each individual and what is more likely to work in the long run.K

Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience - Start Here.

[Guest guest]

Katja - Thank you for the balance your comments have brought to this distracting thread. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: k_bulic@...Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:14:49 -0700Subject: Re: Re: Mendeleyev's Dream

Just to chip in on this interesting discussion....My view is that no extremes are helpful. There are people who fall into a very deep depression and cannot function at all (let alone engage in therapy) until they are put on antidepressants and you can see visible differences in them after a few weeks. In those cases, I think antidepressants can be very helpful and give energy and motivation to engage in therapy. I do not see them as a long term solution and I do not see them as a sole solution to a more fulfilling life. I do agree that antidepressants are overprescribed and are given to people who are going through lows in life. Also I believe that therapy can be much more helpful than antidepressants if you are functioning reasonably well, but are experiencing symptoms you would rather not have. In terms of antipsychotics - I think that anyone who has ever come across a person with a psychotic illness would agree that antipsychotics help a great deal. Unfortunately, the science has still not developed an antipsychotic without serious side-effects. However, without antipsychotics many people would be confined to psychiatric units. This is not to say that therapy is not helpful in treating people with psychosis (e.g. an ACT study showed reductions in re-hospitalisations following an ACT intervention). So, at the end of the day I believe it all comes down to what is workable for each individual and what is more likely to work in the long run.K

Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience - Start Here.

[Guest guest]

I know antidepressants get a bad rap, and I've tried to go off of them. I take Wellburtrin/bupropion and have tried the fish oil and the amino acids. They helped marginally, but as soon as I had a stressor (physical pain) they pooped out. I have to conclude that there is something to the genetics or at least the genetics/environment combination. While I side with those who don't really trust big pharma, I also have to take a more balanced approach - the only thing that keeps my depression under control is medication. That said, there is still a low level of depression even on the drugs, and I think this is from learned thinking habits, which ACT can address. I'm also checking out EMDR, and so far that seems to be helping. I think, though, that I'm

able to do some things with EMDR and EFT that are more effective because of skills learned doing mindful meditation and some of the exercises from ACT.

Just thought I'd toss in a perspective that isn't fond of big pharma, but also relies on drugs as the one therapy that really has worked.

ellen

[ACT_for_the_ Public] Re: Mendeleyev's Dream

A psychiatrist once put me on an antidepressant and after eight months I started twitching all over, when I came off the drug the twitching became worse and my muscles kept cramping up. Every time I stopped still it felt as though thousands of tiny insects were crawling through me. This lasted for two years and worried the life out of me. I also read Breggin's book and was horrified at the damage I may have done to my brain, and the chronic depression it may have caused. The psychiatrist was unsypathetic and didn't think there was much hope for me and my depression. Psychiatry destroyed my self esteem making me feel useless and worthless. They created an arch enemy.Dr L. Whitfield, in his book The Truth about Depression, say's that anti depressants only work for a few weeks to a few months, absolutely useless for something like depression. Anyway, I feel bad about about

bringing up this horrible subject so this is the last I shall talk about and get back to the stuff about ACT.Before I go, I would just like to say that they now know that the brain can repair itself when you get your stress levels under control and a yourself a little happier. Especially so if you take some ultra pure EPA (without DHA) for a while. So don't worry too much if you are using anti depressants. (Research by Dr Basant K. Puri).Kexample? >> > > > > >>

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Yahoo! Health

Achy Joint?

Common arthritis

myths debunked.

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Share Photos

Put your favorite

photos and

more online.

..

[Guest guest]

Hi ellen,

I can understand how you feel, depression is so painful. If you have

tried your best and antidepressnts help you the most then I would

guess I would do the same as you.

Have you tried Rhdiola Rosea (RR), a truly awesome and lovely herbal

antidepressant? It's an adaptogen like ginseng, but with mood

altering effects. Take it for three weeks and then take a week off.

Some people recommend four months on and then one month off. And

P. Brown and L. Greenbarg (both pyschitrists) say in

their book, The Rhodiol Reveolution, it can take up to eight weeks to

start working properly. They recommend that you take it without a

break indefinately.

The reason I give you all this information is because RR lost some

effect for me after about eight weeks so I prefer three weeks on and

one week off. It helps you lose weight too by stopping the adrenal

glands from pumping out loads of nasty chemicals.

So if your medication ever needs to be changed you might want to

discuss RR with your doctor.

I tried EMDR on myself and it brought up loads of memories from when

I was very young. I could remember the patterns on the chairs, the

wallpaper, sweets that were around in those days, and many of my toys

I had when I was three to four years old, but no healing I'm afraid.

For me, going over my past just makes things worst, it's all a form

of rumination, or broading.

K

>

> I know antidepressants get a bad rap, and I've tried to go off of

them.  I take Wellburtrin/bupropion and have tried the fish oil and

the amino acids.  They helped marginally, but as soon as I had a

stressor (physical pain) they pooped out.  I have to conclude that

there is something to the genetics or at least the

genetics/environment combination.  While I side with those who don't

really trust big pharma, I also have to take a more balanced

approach - the only thing that keeps my depression under control is

medication.  That said, there is still a low level of depression even

on the drugs, and I think this is from learned thinking habits, which

ACT can address.  I'm also checking out EMDR, and so far that seems

to be helping.  I think, though, that I'm able to do some things with

EMDR and EFT that are more effective because of skills learned doing

mindful meditation and some of the exercises from ACT.

> Just thought I'd toss in a perspective that isn't fond of big

pharma, but also relies on drugs as the one therapy that really has

worked.

> ellen

>

>

>

> [ACT_for_the_ Public] Re: Mendeleyev's Dream

>

> A psychiatrist once put me on an antidepressant and after eight

> months I started twitching all over, when I came off the drug the

> twitching became worse and my muscles kept cramping up. Every time

I

> stopped still it felt as though thousands of tiny insects were

> crawling through me. This lasted for two years and worried the life

> out of me. I also read Breggin's book and was horrified at

the

> damage I may have done to my brain, and the chronic depression it

may

> have caused.

>

> The psychiatrist was unsypathetic and didn't think there was much

> hope for me and my depression. Psychiatry destroyed my self esteem

> making me feel useless and worthless. They created an arch enemy.

>

> Dr L. Whitfield, in his book The Truth about Depression,

> say's that anti depressants only work for a few weeks to a few

> months, absolutely useless for something like depression.

>

> Anyway, I feel bad about about bringing up this horrible subject so

> this is the last I shall talk about and get back to the stuff about

> ACT.

>

> Before I go, I would just like to say that they now know that the

> brain can repair itself when you get your stress levels under

control

> and a yourself a little happier. Especially so if you take some

ultra

> pure EPA (without DHA) for a while. So don't worry too much if you

> are using anti depressants. (Research by Dr Basant K. Puri).

>

> K

> example?

> >> >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> Recent Activity

> *  9

> New MembersVisit Your Group

> Yahoo! Health

> Achy Joint?

> Common arthritis

> myths debunked.

> Meditation and

> Lovingkindness

> A Yahoo! Group

> to share and learn.

> Share Photos

> Put your favorite

> photos and

> more online.

> .

>