RE: Re: Help with a Problem.

[Guest guest]

The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in away that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do againwhat did not work in the first place.Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the cost of fusion and avoidance:

not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when you experience suchpain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this, etc.Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being in a war in your head!Argh!The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it teach. " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things with it I see it is not necessary

to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something different.And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am human will do so, hopefullyin smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have an ability to see that pain, to

see its source, and to respond differently -- now my children will see that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I willgive something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should embody when years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more precious to my dear, beautiful children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

- S

<<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

....To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

come and go like everything else.

Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

can do.

Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

Here we go again...

When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

picture of the way that things were.

The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

rest.

As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

Best wishes,

--

>

> Hi,

>

> You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

to

> go about something I am dealing with.

>

> I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

a

> therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

followed

> her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

my

> eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

to

> move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

alot

> the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

I

> quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

things

> that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

it

> is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> myself.I want that back.

>

> So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

I

> remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

my

> kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

need

> to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> life is the worst to me.

>

> I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

ask.

>

> Thanks in advance. Robyn

>

-- C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Context Press (you can use for messages): (www.contextpress.com)If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Thank you so much S and .

Your words helped me to see that my biggest problem with this is fusion.

Actually, this is a good realization for me. My mind has unwittingly

perfected this to an art.

Here is a perfect example. I was watching a movie earlier this afternoon. It

was a movie that I watched with my kids a few years ago when I was doing well

and went to movies with them. So, what did my mind do?(Notice I did not say ,

" What did I do " ) I cried because it reminded me of what I used to do. And you

can probably guess what happened next. I didn't enjoy the movie and had to

change it. Because the movie and my pain were fused. It isn't the movie's

fault. And I think I just came to the realization that I need to treat my mind

as a mind and not me. That will help me unfuse the " why can't I stop doing this

" thing. My mind is the one doing it not me. My mind has even done this with

the therapist. Not every single thing she told me was a problem. Just the

stuff that messed me up. So therapist and pain completely fused and black and

white. I can see gray but not sure how to interpret it. I am still mad at her

and see her as bad and so how do I bring in the gray

.. I guess by knowing that not all people are completely bad. But mind says,

that doesn't help me with the fact that she messed up my life to a point. It

" feels " like she ruined my life. I don't think that is accurate.

When I think of this fusion thing and I think the book touched on this, if I

remember right. Let's say you lose a love one. Everywhere you go could remind

you of them. How do you go to the grocery store when that reminds you of them.

This is what happens with me and my two kids are now older and I can't have the

time before back. They are busy now and don't have much time to be with me.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and help. You have no idea how it helps me.

Robyn

-------------- Original message ----------------------

> The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in a

> way that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do again

> what did not work in the first place.

>

> Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the

> cost of fusion and avoidance:

> not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.

>

> But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when you

> experience such

> pain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

> And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,

> the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this, etc.

>

> Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

> in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being in

> a war in your head!

>

> Argh!

>

> The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it teach.

>

> " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things with

> it I see it is not necessary

> to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something different.

> And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am human

> will do so, hopefully

> in smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have an

> ability to see that pain, to

> see its source, and to respond differently -- *now *my children will see

> that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.

> This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I will

> give something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

> than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should embody

> when

> years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more

> precious to my dear, beautiful

> children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

>

> - S

>

>

> On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Parks

wrote:

>

> > <<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

> >

> > ...To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

> >

> > Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

> > they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

> > come and go like everything else.

> >

> > Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

> > process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

> > Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

> > can do.

> >

> > Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

> > kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

> > your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

> > rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

> > guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

> > kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

> > Here we go again...

> >

> > When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

> > the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

> > Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

> > Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

> > deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

> > projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

> >

> > The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

> > imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

> > and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

> > picture of the way that things were.

> >

> > The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

> > been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

> > of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

> > and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

> > they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

> > reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

> >

> > To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

> > through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

> > gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

> > long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

> > feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

> > can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

> >

> > The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

> > phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

> > neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

> > rest.

> >

> > As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

> > therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

> > aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

> > they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

> > bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

> > have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

> > mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

> > of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

> > your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > --

> >

> >

>

> Hi,

>

> You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

to

> go about something I am dealing with.

>

> I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

a

> therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

followed

> her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

my

> eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

to

> move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

alot

> the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

I

> quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

things

> that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

it

> is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> myself.I want that back.

>

> So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

I

> remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

my

> kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

need

> to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> life is the worst to me.

>

> I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

ask.

>

> Thanks in advance. Robyn

>

-- C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062hayes@... or stevenchayesgmail

Fax: Context Press (you can use for messages): (www.contextpress.com)If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

[Guest guest]

Robyn -- Thanks for sharing.

The thing about the mind is that it is subject to our history and experience. It will throw that history at us anytime or anywhere. It's just what minds do.

My kids and wife just called. They spoke about how they were having a wonderful time on Cape Cod, wading out a quarter mile in low tide, while watching the sun set on a beautiful evening. They spoke about how the experience was incredible, and all on full stomachs of fresh sea food. And here I am holed up at home, here because I have commitments Monday morning that I could not get out of without significant costs to me and my family. My mind is feeding me all kinds of stuff. I want to be with my kids and wife to share their moments, but I am not. I am here. I am here. I am here. (reminds me of Horton hears a Hoo). My mind is here too. It would like to pull me into regret and guilt. I know that game and buying into it leaves me with " I am not here...I am not here...I am not here " And worse, I wallow, stew, and experience guilt, shame, regret, and an endless stream.

That guilt is fine. I just need to see that this experience, as Steve says, has something to teach me. I want my kids to be doing what they are doing, with their cousins, on Cape Cod, in the ocean, with a fully belly, and during a sunset. I'd love to be with them, but I am not. That's ok. I commit to doing more with them when they get back. That's something I can do.

-john

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology, SS369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

Email: forsyth@...

Web Sites:

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Re: Re: Help with a Problem.

Hi,

Thank you so much S and .

Your words helped me to see that my biggest problem with this is fusion.

Actually, this is a good realization for me. My mind has unwittingly perfected this to an art.

Here is a perfect example. I was watching a movie earlier this afternoon. It was a movie that I watched with my kids a few years ago when I was doing well and went to movies with them. So, what did my mind do?(Notice I did not say , " What did I do " ) I cried because it reminded me of what I used to do. And you can probably guess what happened next. I didn't enjoy the movie and had to change it. Because the movie and my pain were fused. It isn't the movie's fault. And I think I just came to the realization that I need to treat my mind as a mind and not me. That will help me unfuse the " why can't I stop doing this " thing. My mind is the one doing it not me. My mind has even done this with the therapist. Not every single thing she told me was a problem. Just the stuff that messed me up. So therapist and pain completely fused and black and white. I can see gray but not sure how to interpret it. I am still mad at her and see her as bad and so how do I bring in t!

he gray

.. I guess by knowing that not all people are completely bad. But mind says, that doesn't help me with the fact that she messed up my life to a point. It " feels " like she ruined my life. I don't think that is accurate.

When I think of this fusion thing and I think the book touched on this, if I remember right. Let's say you lose a love one. Everywhere you go could remind you of them. How do you go to the grocery store when that reminds you of them. This is what happens with me and my two kids are now older and I can't have the time before back. They are busy now and don't have much time to be with me.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and help. You have no idea how it helps me.

Robyn

-------------- Original message ----------------------

> The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in a

> way that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do again

> what did not work in the first place.

>

> Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the

> cost of fusion and avoidance:

> not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.

>

> But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when you

> experience such

> pain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

> And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,

> the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this, etc.

>

> Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

> in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being in

> a war in your head!

>

> Argh!

>

> The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it teach.

>

> " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things with

> it I see it is not necessary

> to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something different.

> And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am human

> will do so, hopefully

> in smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have an

> ability to see that pain, to

> see its source, and to respond differently -- *now *my children will see

> that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.

> This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I will

> give something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

> than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should embody

> when

> years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more

> precious to my dear, beautiful

> children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

>

> - S

>

>

> On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Parks wrote:

>

> > <<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

> >

> > ...To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

> >

> > Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

> > they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

> > come and go like everything else.

> >

> > Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

> > process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

> > Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

> > can do.

> >

> > Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

> > kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

> > your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

> > rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

> > guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

> > kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

> > Here we go again...

> >

> > When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

> > the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

> > Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

> > Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

> > deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

> > projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

> >

> > The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

> > imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

> > and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

> > picture of the way that things were.

> >

> > The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

> > been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

> > of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

> > and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

> > they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

> > reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

> >

> > To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

> > through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

> > gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

> > long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

> > feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

> > can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

> >

> > The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

> > phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

> > neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

> > rest.

> >

> > As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

> > therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

> > aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

> > they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

> > bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

> > have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

> > mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

> > of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

> > your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > --

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

> > to

> > > go about something I am dealing with.

> > >

> > > I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> > > wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

> > a

> > > therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> > > misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

> > followed

> > > her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> > > thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> > > getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> > > Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

> > my

> > > eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

> > to

> > > move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

> > alot

> > > the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

> > I

> > > quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

> > things

> > > that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> > > cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

> > it

> > > is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> > > person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> > > anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> > > until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> > > myself.I want that back.

> > >

> > > So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> > > things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> > > those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

> > I

> > > remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

> > my

> > > kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> > > with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

> > need

> > > to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> > > feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> > > before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> > > feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> > > professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> > > life is the worst to me.

> > >

> > > I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

> > ask.

> > >

> > > Thanks in advance. Robyn

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> C.

> Foundation Professor

> Department of Psychology /298

> University of Nevada

> Reno, NV 89557-0062

>

> hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

> Fax:

>

>

> Context Press (you can use for messages): (

> www.contextpress.com)

>

> If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to

> http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

>

> If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide

> ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> or

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

>

> If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get

> Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Thank Dr. . I hope it is okay to call you that.

That was very helpful. You know part of what has happened to me is I have spent

so long believing that I there was something wrong with me mentally that I sort

of give myself permission to be different and that adds to the suffering I cause

myself. It isolates me even more. My mind says, I am not like everyone else

so when you talk about your kids, my mind and the " you are messed up " seeds

planted there think that you and I are not the same. That sure you don't see

your kids but somehow my predicament is worse. Maybe because of why it happened

to me. (It's still the same ) You are a parent too and it is just as bad.

But, when I hear your story and realize I am not the only one I feel better

because I know I am not the only one and I feel a connection. Thank you for

sharing that. It helps so much. And I am sorry you are not with your kids.

That must be yucky too.

Robyn

--------- Re: Re: Help with a Problem.

>

> Hi,

>

> Thank you so much S and .

>

> Your words helped me to see that my biggest problem with this is fusion.

> Actually, this is a good realization for me. My mind has unwittingly

> perfected this to an art.

>

> Here is a perfect example. I was watching a movie earlier this afternoon. It

> was a movie that I watched with my kids a few years ago when I was doing well

> and went to movies with them. So, what did my mind do?(Notice I did not say

,

> " What did I do " ) I cried because it reminded me of what I used to do. And

you

> can probably guess what happened next. I didn't enjoy the movie and had to

> change it. Because the movie and my pain were fused. It isn't the movie's

> fault. And I think I just came to the realization that I need to treat my

mind

> as a mind and not me. That will help me unfuse the " why can't I stop doing

this

> " thing. My mind is the one doing it not me. My mind has even done this with

> the therapist. Not every single thing she told me was a problem. Just the

> stuff that messed me up. So therapist and pain completely fused and black and

> white. I can see gray but not sure how to interpret it. I am still mad at

her

> and see her as bad and so how do I bring in t!

> he gray

> . I guess by knowing that not all people are completely bad. But mind says,

> that doesn't help me with the fact that she messed up my life to a point. It

> " feels " like she ruined my life. I don't think that is accurate.

>

> When I think of this fusion thing and I think the book touched on this, if I

> remember right. Let's say you lose a love one. Everywhere you go could

remind

> you of them. How do you go to the grocery store when that reminds you of

them.

> This is what happens with me and my two kids are now older and I can't have

the

> time before back. They are busy now and don't have much time to be with me.

>

> Thanks so much for your thoughts and help. You have no idea how it helps me.

>

> Robyn

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

>

> > The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in a

> > way that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do again

> > what did not work in the first place.

> >

> > Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the

> > cost of fusion and avoidance:

> > not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.

> >

> > But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when you

> > experience such

> > pain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

> > And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,

> > the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this, etc.

> >

> > Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

> > in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being in

> > a war in your head!

> >

> > Argh!

> >

> > The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it teach.

> >

> > " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things with

> > it I see it is not necessary

> > to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something different.

> > And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am human

> > will do so, hopefully

> > in smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have an

> > ability to see that pain, to

> > see its source, and to respond differently -- *now *my children will see

> > that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.

> > This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I will

> > give something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

> > than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should embody

> > when

> > years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more

> > precious to my dear, beautiful

> > children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

> >

> > - S

> >

> >

> > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Parks

> wrote:

> >

> > > <<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

> > >

> > > ...To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

> > >

> > > Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

> > > they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

> > > come and go like everything else.

> > >

> > > Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

> > > process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

> > > Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

> > > can do.

> > >

> > > Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

> > > kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

> > > your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

> > > rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

> > > guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

> > > kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

> > > Here we go again...

> > >

> > > When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

> > > the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

> > > Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

> > > Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

> > > deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

> > > projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

> > >

> > > The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

> > > imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

> > > and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

> > > picture of the way that things were.

> > >

> > > The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

> > > been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

> > > of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

> > > and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

> > > they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

> > > reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

> > >

> > > To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

> > > through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

> > > gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

> > > long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

> > > feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

> > > can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

> > >

> > > The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

> > > phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

> > > neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

> > > rest.

> > >

> > > As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

> > > therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

> > > aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

> > > they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

> > > bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

> > > have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

> > > mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

> > > of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

> > > your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

> > to

> > > go about something I am dealing with.

> > >

> > > I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> > > wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

> > a

> > > therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> > > misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

> > followed

> > > her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> > > thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> > > getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> > > Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

> > my

> > > eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

> > to

> > > move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

> > alot

> > > the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

> > I

> > > quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

> > things

> > > that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> > > cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

> > it

> > > is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> > > person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> > > anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> > > until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> > > myself.I want that back.

> > >

> > > So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> > > things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> > > those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

> > I

> > > remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

> > my

> > > kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> > > with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

> > need

> > > to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> > > feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> > > before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> > > feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> > > professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> > > life is the worst to me.

> > >

> > > I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

> > ask.

> > >

> > > Thanks in advance. Robyn

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> C.

> Foundation Professor

> Department of Psychology /298

> University of Nevada

> Reno, NV 89557-0062

>

> hayes@... or stevenchayesgmail

> Fax:

>

>

> Context Press (you can use for messages): (

> www.contextpress.com)

>

> If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to

> http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

>

> If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide

> ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> or

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

>

> If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get

> Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

[Guest guest]

Yes, minds love to set up separation. In fact, socially we do that quite a bit -- heck, you can have a social life with virtual friends these days.

I find it helpful to spend time connecting with what we all share. If you can get past differences in how we look, how we speak, how we dress, gender, where we live, jobs, the cars we drive, and so on, you are left with the stuff underneath. And, if you could get inside the skin of someone, let's say someone that seems to " have it all together, " you might be surprised by what you find. In fact, if you can let yourself go there, you might even find that " the together person " is not so different than you or me. They worry. They have regrets. The get dressed every day. Need to eat and use the bathroom. And, at times, they get stuck. At times, they find joy. At times, they are sad. And, in the end, they will die.

I've found that connecting with this part -- the part that we all share -- is liberating. You will find there something that we all share, a big something too. And, once you are there, you can see truly that you are not alone, not a freak, not whacked out. You are part of a larger community of human beings trying to do the best that they can. btw -- You can call me , a fellow traveler.

Peace -j

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology, SS369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

Email: forsyth@...

Web Sites:

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

RE: Re: Help with a Problem.

Hi,

Thank Dr. . I hope it is okay to call you that.

That was very helpful. You know part of what has happened to me is I have spent so long believing that I there was something wrong with me mentally that I sort of give myself permission to be different and that adds to the suffering I cause myself. It isolates me even more. My mind says, I am not like everyone else so when you talk about your kids, my mind and the " you are messed up " seeds planted there think that you and I are not the same. That sure you don't see your kids but somehow my predicament is worse. Maybe because of why it happened to me. (It's still the same ) You are a parent too and it is just as bad. But, when I hear your story and realize I am not the only one I feel better because I know I am not the only one and I feel a connection. Thank you for sharing that. It helps so much. And I am sorry you are not with your kids. That must be yucky too.

Robyn

--------- Re: Re: Help with a Problem.

>

> Hi,

>

> Thank you so much S and .

>

> Your words helped me to see that my biggest problem with this is fusion.

> Actually, this is a good realization for me. My mind has unwittingly

> perfected this to an art.

>

> Here is a perfect example. I was watching a movie earlier this afternoon. It

> was a movie that I watched with my kids a few years ago when I was doing well

> and went to movies with them. So, what did my mind do?(Notice I did not say ,

> " What did I do " ) I cried because it reminded me of what I used to do. And you

> can probably guess what happened next. I didn't enjoy the movie and had to

> change it. Because the movie and my pain were fused. It isn't the movie's

> fault. And I think I just came to the realization that I need to treat my mind

> as a mind and not me. That will help me unfuse the " why can't I stop doing this

> " thing. My mind is the one doing it not me. My mind has even done this with

> the therapist. Not every single thing she told me was a problem. Just the

> stuff that messed me up. So therapist and pain completely fused and black and

> white. I can see gray but not sure how to interpret it. I am still mad at her

> and see her as bad and so how do I bring in t!

> he gray

> . I guess by knowing that not all people are completely bad. But mind says,

> that doesn't help me with the fact that she messed up my life to a point. It

> " feels " like she ruined my life. I don't think that is accurate.

>

> When I think of this fusion thing and I think the book touched on this, if I

> remember right. Let's say you lose a love one. Everywhere you go could remind

> you of them. How do you go to the grocery store when that reminds you of them.

> This is what happens with me and my two kids are now older and I can't have the

> time before back. They are busy now and don't have much time to be with me.

>

> Thanks so much for your thoughts and help. You have no idea how it helps me.

>

> Robyn

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

>

> > The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in a

> > way that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do again

> > what did not work in the first place.

> >

> > Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the

> > cost of fusion and avoidance:

> > not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.

> >

> > But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when you

> > experience such

> > pain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

> > And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,

> > the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this, etc.

> >

> > Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

> > in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being in

> > a war in your head!

> >

> > Argh!

> >

> > The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it teach.

> >

> > " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things with

> > it I see it is not necessary

> > to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something different.

> > And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am human

> > will do so, hopefully

> > in smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have an

> > ability to see that pain, to

> > see its source, and to respond differently -- *now *my children will see

> > that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.

> > This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I will

> > give something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

> > than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should embody

> > when

> > years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more

> > precious to my dear, beautiful

> > children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

> >

> > - S

> >

> >

> > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Parks

> wrote:

> >

> > > <<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

> > >

> > > ...To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

> > >

> > > Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

> > > they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

> > > come and go like everything else.

> > >

> > > Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

> > > process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

> > > Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

> > > can do.

> > >

> > > Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

> > > kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

> > > your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

> > > rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

> > > guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

> > > kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

> > > Here we go again...

> > >

> > > When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

> > > the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

> > > Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

> > > Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

> > > deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

> > > projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

> > >

> > > The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

> > > imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

> > > and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

> > > picture of the way that things were.

> > >

> > > The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

> > > been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

> > > of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

> > > and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

> > > they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

> > > reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

> > >

> > > To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

> > > through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

> > > gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

> > > long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

> > > feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

> > > can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

> > >

> > > The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

> > > phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

> > > neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

> > > rest.

> > >

> > > As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

> > > therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

> > > aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

> > > they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

> > > bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

> > > have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

> > > mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

> > > of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

> > > your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

> > > to

> > > > go about something I am dealing with.

> > > >

> > > > I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> > > > wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

> > > a

> > > > therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> > > > misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

> > > followed

> > > > her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> > > > thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> > > > getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> > > > Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

> > > my

> > > > eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

> > > to

> > > > move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

> > > alot

> > > > the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

> > > I

> > > > quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

> > > things

> > > > that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> > > > cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

> > > it

> > > > is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> > > > person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> > > > anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> > > > until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> > > > myself.I want that back.

> > > >

> > > > So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> > > > things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> > > > those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

> > > I

> > > > remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

> > > my

> > > > kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> > > > with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

> > > need

> > > > to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> > > > feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> > > > before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> > > > feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> > > > professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> > > > life is the worst to me.

> > > >

> > > > I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

> > > ask.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks in advance. Robyn

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > C.

> > Foundation Professor

> > Department of Psychology /298

> > University of Nevada

> > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> >

> > hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

> > Fax:

> >

> >

> > Context Press (you can use for messages): (

> > www.contextpress.com)

> >

> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to

> > http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

> >

> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide

> > ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > or

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> >

> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get

> > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you . I really appreciate it.

You know what I thought of when I read this? The Olympics. I love watching the

Olympics and in all the time I have been watching I have not heard very many

languages spoken at all. All I have seen are people the same as us. They have

emotions just like us and parents and friends who love them. We think we are

different because of our cultures and our languages and we are not in the

Olympics they look just like us. And sports and the Olympics show us that

because it takes away our differences. When you see others stripped down

without the differences it is easier to see our sameness. We are all

connected. Thanks again.

Robyn

--------- Re: Re: Help with a Problem.

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > Thank you so much S and .

> >

> > Your words helped me to see that my biggest problem with this is fusion.

> > Actually, this is a good realization for me. My mind has unwittingly

> > perfected this to an art.

> >

> > Here is a perfect example. I was watching a movie earlier this afternoon.

It

> > was a movie that I watched with my kids a few years ago when I was doing

well

> > and went to movies with them. So, what did my mind do?(Notice I did not

say

> ,

> > " What did I do " ) I cried because it reminded me of what I used to do. And

> you

> > can probably guess what happened next. I didn't enjoy the movie and had to

> > change it. Because the movie and my pain were fused. It isn't the movie's

> > fault. And I think I just came to the realization that I need to treat my

> mind

> > as a mind and not me. That will help me unfuse the " why can't I stop doing

> this

> > " thing. My mind is the one doing it not me. My mind has even done this

with

> > the therapist. Not every single thing she told me was a problem. Just the

> > stuff that messed me up. So therapist and pain completely fused and black

and

> > white. I can see gray but not sure how to interpret it. I am still mad at

> her

> > and see her as bad and so how do I bring in t!

> > he gray

> > . I guess by knowing that not all people are completely bad. But mind

says,

> > that doesn't help me with the fact that she messed up my life to a point.

It

> > " feels " like she ruined my life. I don't think that is accurate.

> >

> > When I think of this fusion thing and I think the book touched on this, if I

> > remember right. Let's say you lose a love one. Everywhere you go could

> remind

> > you of them. How do you go to the grocery store when that reminds you of

> them.

> > This is what happens with me and my two kids are now older and I can't have

> the

> > time before back. They are busy now and don't have much time to be with me.

> >

> > Thanks so much for your thoughts and help. You have no idea how it helps

me.

> >

> > Robyn

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -------------- Original message ----------------------

> >

> > > The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in a

> > > way that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do again

> > > what did not work in the first place.

> > >

> > > Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the

> > > cost of fusion and avoidance:

> > > not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.

> > >

> > > But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when

you

> > > experience such

> > > pain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

> > > And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,

> > > the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this, etc.

> > >

> > > Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

> > > in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being

in

> > > a war in your head!

> > >

> > > Argh!

> > >

> > > The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it

teach.

> > >

> > > " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things

with

> > > it I see it is not necessary

> > > to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something

different.

> > > And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am human

> > > will do so, hopefully

> > > in smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have an

> > > ability to see that pain, to

> > > see its source, and to respond differently -- *now *my children will see

> > > that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.

> > > This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I

will

> > > give something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

> > > than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should

embody

> > > when

> > > years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more

> > > precious to my dear, beautiful

> > > children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

> > >

> > > - S

> > >

> > >

> > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Parks

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > > <<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

> > > >

> > > > ...To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

> > > >

> > > > Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

> > > > they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

> > > > come and go like everything else.

> > > >

> > > > Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

> > > > process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

> > > > Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

> > > > can do.

> > > >

> > > > Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

> > > > kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

> > > > your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

> > > > rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

> > > > guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

> > > > kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

> > > > Here we go again...

> > > >

> > > > When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

> > > > the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

> > > > Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

> > > > Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

> > > > deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

> > > > projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

> > > >

> > > > The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

> > > > imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

> > > > and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

> > > > picture of the way that things were.

> > > >

> > > > The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

> > > > been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

> > > > of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

> > > > and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

> > > > they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

> > > > reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

> > > >

> > > > To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

> > > > through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

> > > > gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

> > > > long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

> > > > feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

> > > > can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

> > > >

> > > > The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

> > > > phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

> > > > neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

> > > > rest.

> > > >

> > > > As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

> > > > therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

> > > > aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

> > > > they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

> > > > bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

> > > > have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

> > > > mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

> > > > of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

> > > > your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > > --

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

> > > to

> > > > go about something I am dealing with.

> > > >

> > > > I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> > > > wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

> > > a

> > > > therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> > > > misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

> > > followed

> > > > her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> > > > thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> > > > getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> > > > Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

> > > my

> > > > eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

> > > to

> > > > move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

> > > alot

> > > > the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

> > > I

> > > > quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

> > > things

> > > > that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> > > > cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

> > > it

> > > > is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> > > > person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> > > > anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> > > > until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> > > > myself.I want that back.

> > > >

> > > > So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> > > > things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> > > > those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

> > > I

> > > > remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

> > > my

> > > > kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> > > > with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

> > > need

> > > > to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> > > > feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> > > > before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> > > > feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> > > > professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> > > > life is the worst to me.

> > > >

> > > > I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

> > > ask.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks in advance. Robyn

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > C.

> > Foundation Professor

> > Department of Psychology /298

> > University of Nevada

> > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> >

> > hayes@... or stevenchayesgmail

> > Fax:

> >

> >

> > Context Press (you can use for messages): (

> > www.contextpress.com)

> >

> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to

> > http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

> >

> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide

> > ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > or

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> >

> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get

> > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Another quick question. I don't even know if that can be answered.

Part of my past theraputic process in the last years is that my process of

feelings are distorted. That just added to my feelings of " if I could just

think differently everything will be better " feeling. It makes me feel like

what I feel isn;t correct and trying to change how I feel hasn't worked and I

want to accept myself for however I feel. Does the ACT process try to change

feelings? I don't think so, only because in a way I feel like trying to change

how I feel is why I got myself into this way of coping in the first place.

Thanks in advance.

Robyn

--------- Re: Re: Help with a Problem.

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > Thank you so much S and .

> > >

> > > Your words helped me to see that my biggest problem with this is fusion.

> > > Actually, this is a good realization for me. My mind has unwittingly

> > > perfected this to an art.

> > >

> > > Here is a perfect example. I was watching a movie earlier this afternoon.

> It

> > > was a movie that I watched with my kids a few years ago when I was doing

> well

> > > and went to movies with them. So, what did my mind do?(Notice I did not

> say

> > ,

> > > " What did I do " ) I cried because it reminded me of what I used to do.

And

> > you

> > > can probably guess what happened next. I didn't enjoy the movie and had

to

> > > change it. Because the movie and my pain were fused. It isn't the

movie's

> > > fault. And I think I just came to the realization that I need to treat my

> > mind

> > > as a mind and not me. That will help me unfuse the " why can't I stop

doing

> > this

> > > " thing. My mind is the one doing it not me. My mind has even done this

> with

> > > the therapist. Not every single thing she told me was a problem. Just

the

> > > stuff that messed me up. So therapist and pain completely fused and black

> and

> > > white. I can see gray but not sure how to interpret it. I am still mad

at

> > her

> > > and see her as bad and so how do I bring in t!

> > > he gray

> > > . I guess by knowing that not all people are completely bad. But mind

> says,

> > > that doesn't help me with the fact that she messed up my life to a point.

> It

> > > " feels " like she ruined my life. I don't think that is accurate.

> > >

> > > When I think of this fusion thing and I think the book touched on this, if

I

> > > remember right. Let's say you lose a love one. Everywhere you go could

> > remind

> > > you of them. How do you go to the grocery store when that reminds you of

> > them.

> > > This is what happens with me and my two kids are now older and I can't

have

> > the

> > > time before back. They are busy now and don't have much time to be with

me.

> > >

> > > Thanks so much for your thoughts and help. You have no idea how it helps

> me.

> > >

> > > Robyn

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > -------------- Original message ----------------------

> > >

> > > > The irony is that mind wants to treat the mental anguish not in a

> > > > way that really is helpful, but as the opportunity to do again

> > > > what did not work in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > Guilt is not our enemy -- if we are talking about the pain of seeing the

> > > > cost of fusion and avoidance:

> > > > not living in a way that is high in self-acceptance/mindfulness/values.

> > > >

> > > > But the mind tries to turn that into shame. Shame is what you feel when

> you

> > > > experience such

> > > > pain and add in the fused idea that you ARE bad.

> > > > And it turns it into fused anger -- this was not fair, I was victimized,

> > > > the opportunity lost will never be repaired, I cannot live with this,

etc.

> > > >

> > > > Meanwhile your kids can be 3' away and you are off in a war

> > > > in your head ... and the war is all about the cost to your kids of being

> in

> > > > a war in your head!

> > > >

> > > > Argh!

> > > >

> > > > The solution is to take response-ability for the guilt / hurt. Let it

> teach.

> > > >

> > > > " Yes -- that did not work. It hurts to see it, yet by doing new things

> with

> > > > it I see it is not necessary

> > > > to continue its unhealthy roll in my life. NOW I can do something

> different.

> > > > And yes I may have let down my children in the past (and since I am

human

> > > > will do so, hopefully

> > > > in smaller ways, in the future). In part as a result -- because I have

an

> > > > ability to see that pain, to

> > > > see its source, and to respond differently -- *now *my children will see

> > > > that change is possible, love is real, and values matter.

> > > > This has been a lesson learned for me and in my embodying that lesson I

> will

> > > > give something precious to my children, perhaps far more precious

> > > > than the happy-happy-joy-joy picture my mind tries to insist I should

> embody

> > > > when

> > > > years from now they too do what human do so easily. Perhaps far more

> > > > precious to my dear, beautiful

> > > > children when (God forbid) they too do what I did. "

> > > >

> > > > - S

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Parks

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > <<<What is a good way to get through those feelings.>>>

> > > > >

> > > > > ...To let go of the struggle to 'get through' them.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just do the things you want to do, and let the feelings be whatever

> > > > > they decide to be. Let them take their natural course. They will

> > > > > come and go like everything else.

> > > > >

> > > > > Get back into things. That's what you're here to do. Where the

> > > > > process feels good, let it feel good. Where it hurts, let it hurt.

> > > > > Do your part and let the rest take care of itself. That's all you

> > > > > can do.

> > > > >

> > > > > Suppose that you do something really fun and enjoyable with your

> > > > > kids. What's going to happen? One thing that might happen is that

> > > > > your mind might remind you of what has been lost. You might have a

> > > > > rush of emotion that leads you to tear up. You might even feel

> > > > > guilty and frustrated for not holding it together in front of your

> > > > > kids, ruining their moment. When will you ever get through this?

> > > > > Here we go again...

> > > > >

> > > > > When all this happens, remember that it's nothing special. It's just

> > > > > the way the mind reacts to certain kinds of things. It gets sappy.

> > > > > Later on, it will get giddy. Then enthusiastic. Then euphoric.

> > > > > Then anxious. Then tired. Then serious. Maybe sappy again. No big

> > > > > deal. Nothing to dwell on. Feelings are flavors that the mind

> > > > > projects onto reality. Just that, nothing more. They come and go.

> > > > >

> > > > > The mind always embellishes the past. So when your mind starts

> > > > > imagining how good things were way back when, just tell it " thanks "

> > > > > and keep moving. It does not have the ability to give you a real

> > > > > picture of the way that things were.

> > > > >

> > > > > The mind also likes to envision the way that things 'could have

> > > > > been.' But this idea of 'could have been' is just another creation

> > > > > of language. There is only one way that things 'could have been',

> > > > > and that is exactly the way that they were. The idea that

> > > > > they 'could have been' different only comes up because the mind sees

> > > > > reality and *imagines* it with different characteristics.

> > > > >

> > > > > To get to where you currently are in your life, you have to go

> > > > > through were you've been. There is no other way. You've already

> > > > > gone through where you've been. If it had gone well, your mind would

> > > > > long for it with nostalgia. If it had gone poorly, your mind would

> > > > > feel guilty at the fact that it did not go well. Obviously, you

> > > > > can't win in this game. So why bother playing?

> > > > >

> > > > > The past doesn't matter because you've already traveled through that

> > > > > phase of your life. It would be over whether it felt good, bad, or

> > > > > neutral at the time. So just go from where you are and let go of the

> > > > > rest.

> > > > >

> > > > > As for the mental rules that are stuck in your mind from the past

> > > > > therapy, when you see these rules at work, and you see that they

> > > > > aren't helping you move forward, break them. Disobey them. When

> > > > > they tell you to do X, do Y. When they tell you that doing Y is bla

> > > > > bla bla, say thanks and do Y. To get back into your life, you don't

> > > > > have to disprove the garbage that the therapist injected into your

> > > > > mind. All you have to do is just get back into your life, regardless

> > > > > of what's in your mind. If you focus on the part you can control--

> > > > > your hands and feet--the rest will sort itself out on its own.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best wishes,

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a take on how

> > > to

> > > > go about something I am dealing with.

> > > >

> > > > I won't go into my history too much except to say that I am dealing

> > > > wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got involved with

> > > a

> > > > therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did and

> > > > misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into. I

> > > followed

> > > > her into her assesments of me and I have been living under her

> > > > thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that I was

> > > > getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself for this.

> > > > Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that finally opened

> > > my

> > > > eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am now trying

> > > to

> > > > move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed out on

> > > alot

> > > > the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot of things

> > > I

> > > > quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start doing

> > > things

> > > > that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do something I

> > > > cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past but yet

> > > it

> > > > is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I was a strong

> > > > person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I had

> > > > anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse and worse

> > > > until I could do very little and lost almost all confidence in

> > > > myself.I want that back.

> > > >

> > > > So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used to doing

> > > > things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get through

> > > > those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do something

> > > I

> > > > remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed out with

> > > my

> > > > kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to do stuff

> > > > with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe I just

> > > need

> > > > to know that it will settle down later. I also still get this crazy

> > > > feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I used to do

> > > > before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You know we

> > > > feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings toward a

> > > > professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable time in my

> > > > life is the worst to me.

> > > >

> > > > I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I thought I would

> > > ask.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks in advance. Robyn

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > C.

> > Foundation Professor

> > Department of Psychology /298

> > University of Nevada

> > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> >

> > hayes@... or stevenchayesgmail

> > Fax:

> >

> >

> > Context Press (you can use for messages): (

> > www.contextpress.com)

> >

> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to

> > http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

> >

> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide

> > ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > or

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> >

> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get

> > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great way to put that. Thanks so much.

Robyn

-------------- Original message ----------------------

> <<<Does the ACT process try to change feelings?>>>

>

> No. The way that I have read it on this forum, ACT teaches us to

> FEEL better, rather than to feel BETTER. We let go and allow

> whatever feelings we are having at the moment--bad or good--without

> fusing with their statements or getting lost inside their content.

> We shift our focus to the things that we actually have control over--

> our hands and feet--and we let the rest fall into place on its own.

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You guys are so good with this stuff I wanted to get a

take on how

> > > > > to

> > > > > > go about something I am dealing with.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I won't go into my history too much except to say that I

am dealing

> > > > > > wiht alot of lost time over the last 5 years. I got

involved with

> > > > > a

> > > > > > therapist that made me feel way worse than I already did

and

> > > > > > misdiagnosed me and alot of other stuff I won't get into.

I

> > > > > followed

> > > > > > her into her assesments of me and I have been living

under her

> > > > > > thoughts about me and not my own. I finally realized that

I was

> > > > > > getting worse every year and I have been blaming myself

for this.

> > > > > > Finally, about 6 months ago she did some stuff that

finally opened

> > > > > my

> > > > > > eyes and I have stopped seeing her. My problem is I am

now trying

> > > > > to

> > > > > > move on. As you probably know this is not easy. I missed

out on

> > > > > alot

> > > > > > the last years. Especially with my kids. There are alot

of things

> > > > > I

> > > > > > quit doing. Avoiding. So, now I want to move on and start

doing

> > > > > things

> > > > > > that I have been avoiding. My problem is that when I do

something I

> > > > > > cry for what I lost. It makes it hard. THis stuff is past

but yet

> > > > > it

> > > > > > is here right in my face. Before I met this therapist I

was a strong

> > > > > > person. I had a life and did lots of things even though I

had

> > > > > > anxiety. Since I started seeing her I have gotten worse

and worse

> > > > > > until I could do very little and lost almost all

confidence in

> > > > > > myself.I want that back.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, I guess my question is, maybe I just have to get used

to doing

> > > > > > things again and it is painful. What is a good way to get

through

> > > > > > those feelings. I want to move on so bad. Whenever I do

something

> > > > > I

> > > > > > remember the time I missed. I remember how much I missed

out with

> > > > > my

> > > > > > kids. Those are my hardest feelings. It makes it hard to

do stuff

> > > > > > with them when I want to cry when I do this stuff. Maybe

I just

> > > > > need

> > > > > > to know that it will settle down later. I also still get

this crazy

> > > > > > feeling that feels like my therapist when I do things I

used to do

> > > > > > before. I feel so brainwashed by her. It is terrible. You

know we

> > > > > > feel stupid when we do these things but my feelings

toward a

> > > > > > professional that did this to me during a very vulnerable

time in my

> > > > > > life is the worst to me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I just get so much good stuff from you guys that I

thought I would

> > > > > ask.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks in advance. Robyn

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > C.

> > > > Foundation Professor

> > > > Department of Psychology /298

> > > > University of Nevada

> > > > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> > > >

> > > > hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

> > > > Fax:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Context Press (you can use for messages): (

> > > > www.contextpress.com)

> > > >

> > > > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to

> > > > http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

> > > >

> > > > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of

the world wide

> > > > ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

> > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/jo

in

> > > > or

> > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> > > >

> > > > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books

(e.g., " Get

> > > > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

> > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>