Re: Values and consciousness

[Guest guest]

" where does the " thinking self " end and the " observing self "

begin " is itself a " thinking self " question. Of course.Suppose you could learn the distinction in a real world and flexible way onlyby experience. Gently; over time; fuzzy, yet real. And suppose the " thinking self " HATED that answer.

It would be like asking " when is a bath just right " and demanding ananswer before feeling the water.Even the details you speak of ... when you get entangled in the " is this clean enough " stuff.

Could even then you try out different things; give yourself time;be flexible; learning gradually by doing. Could you respectfully decline to " answer " the question except with your feet and your heart measured over hours / days / weeks / and months not

minutes? In that mind set doing it shitty could be a real ally ...Minds HATE having nothing to do and admittedly this gives the thinking mindnothing to do but complain ... but heck it will complain regardless. And who's life is this anyway?

Better to teach that collection of passengers who is the driver here.Dear mind: Waa waa -- call the waambulance. Meanwhile I'm just walkinginside self-fidelity, one step at a time.Sue me if you don't like it.

- S

All,

Apologies if what I'm about to delve into here has

been covered...I try to check out most posts, but

there are a lot of them!

I have the tendency to ramble also....I'll try to be

brief!

I've been involved with ACT since last December, and

have the good fortune to be working with a great ACT

therapist. I've recently completed SCH's workbook

(only took 8 months...those values chapters are

intimidating!) and have to admit, I'm still having

some trouble " wrapping my head around " some of the

approaches unique to this great arena.

One of my main struggles is this: when I'm fairly

successful at defusing from the myriad thoughts that

hit me every day (admittedly, that's not often, and

many times I can't even catch them before they become

general anxiety and malaise), I come to this

crossroads of " consciousness " , if you will. I can say

to myself... " gee, I'm having the thought that I'm

overwhelmed and don't know where to start to [clean my

apt, etc etc etc] " ...

So I can recognize, at that point, the goal is to

" move in the direction of my values... " . I get that.

But where I'm getting hung up is (and please forgive

me if I'm oversimplifying, just not " getting it " , or

playing devil's advocate a bit too strongly) ....where

does the " thinking self " end and the " observing self "

begin?

There's a fuzzy, super-fine line there for me. And I'm

riddled with perfectionist traits, which means a ton

of all-or-nothing thinking keeps reappearing. My

therapist says, " do it shitty " ...which is great! Kind

of this blind, faith-filled diving in, if you will. I

can do it sometimes.

I have such trouble moving in a " conscious " valued

direction without getting bombarded in all the ways to

actually, specifically do that. Does that make sense??

I may value a clean living space, but it's the

nitty-gritty I get beat down by. Where to start? How

much time? What is " clean " ? I usually end up chucking

it and avoiding. That part is clear as crystal.

Obviously, SOMETHING is better than nothing. If the

best thing I can accomplish is washing one spoon, can

I accept that? Seems impossible!

The values and commitment part I am totally in line

with...simply put, I am having the hardest time

separating the " dirty noise " from the necessary

" cognitive activity " I actually NEED to move towards

my values.

Nuff said! Any insight would be fantastic. Thanks all.

-- C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Context Press (you can use for messages): (www.contextpress.com)If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

[Guest guest]

I find that when I move in the direction of my values, I inch toward daylight.

It really only feels like an inch, but then I move one more inch, and another - it is so hard to do this when my mind is screaming at me to run, to give into the pain and the fear.

But somewhere, deep deep down, I am incredibly grateful that I have someplace to go.

Also, I know many people talk about values as goals - perhaps a clean house is not a good goal? Maybe you could value beauty, as how you perceive it - sometimes it is a clean house, sometimes it is a sunset, but as beauty is inherently ephemeral, you know it won't last forever, it's one of those never ending quest things. Quite poetic, really.

Also, this is gonna sound odd, but if you like to read novels, check out this book:

Blade of Tyshalle by Woodring Stover

It is in your local library, otherwise out of print. It is a good read and the hero uses ACT to, well, do heroic stuff. He doesn't call it ACT, but it might as well be. In any case, it is a great read and an inspirational story about letting go, becoming the " observer " and moving forward in extremely stressful circumstances.

Good luck,

All,Apologies if what I'm about to delve into here hasbeen covered...I try to check out most posts, butthere are a lot of them!I have the tendency to ramble also....I'll try to bebrief!

I've been involved with ACT since last December, andhave the good fortune to be working with a great ACTtherapist. I've recently completed SCH's workbook(only took 8 months...those values chapters are

intimidating!) and have to admit, I'm still havingsome trouble " wrapping my head around " some of theapproaches unique to this great arena.One of my main struggles is this: when I'm fairly

successful at defusing from the myriad thoughts thathit me every day (admittedly, that's not often, andmany times I can't even catch them before they becomegeneral anxiety and malaise), I come to this

crossroads of " consciousness " , if you will. I can sayto myself... " gee, I'm having the thought that I'moverwhelmed and don't know where to start to [clean myapt, etc etc etc] " ...

So I can recognize, at that point, the goal is to " move in the direction of my values... " . I get that.But where I'm getting hung up is (and please forgiveme if I'm oversimplifying, just not " getting it " , or

playing devil's advocate a bit too strongly) ....wheredoes the " thinking self " end and the " observing self " begin? There's a fuzzy, super-fine line there for me. And I'mriddled with perfectionist traits, which means a ton

of all-or-nothing thinking keeps reappearing. Mytherapist says, " do it shitty " ...which is great! Kindof this blind, faith-filled diving in, if you will. Ican do it sometimes. I have such trouble moving in a " conscious " valued

direction without getting bombarded in all the ways toactually, specifically do that. Does that make sense??I may value a clean living space, but it's thenitty-gritty I get beat down by. Where to start? How

much time? What is " clean " ? I usually end up chuckingit and avoiding. That part is clear as crystal.Obviously, SOMETHING is better than nothing. If thebest thing I can accomplish is washing one spoon, can

I accept that? Seems impossible!The values and commitment part I am totally in linewith...simply put, I am having the hardest timeseparating the " dirty noise " from the necessary " cognitive activity " I actually NEED to move towards

my values. Nuff said! Any insight would be fantastic. Thanks all.

[Guest guest]

Straight from the top...awesome!!

Thank you, Mr. . Truly appreciated. As you can

see, this steel-trap of mine is a relentless. Always,

ALWAYS working.

Shitty it is. I shall call the waaaambulance

immediately. Love it!

--- wrote:

> " where does the " thinking self " end and the

> " observing self "

> begin " is itself a " thinking self " question. Of

> course.

>

> Suppose you could learn the distinction in a real

> world and flexible way

> only

> by experience. Gently; over time; fuzzy, yet real.

>

> And suppose the " thinking self " HATED that answer.

>

> It would be like asking " when is a bath just right "

> and demanding an

> answer before feeling the water.

>

> Even the details you speak of ... when you get

> entangled in the " is this

> clean enough " stuff.

> Could even then you try out different things; give

> yourself time;

> be flexible; learning gradually by doing. Could you

> respectfully decline to

> " answer "

> the question except with your feet and your heart

> measured over hours / days

> / weeks / and months not

> minutes?

>

> In that mind set doing it shitty could be a real

> ally ...

>

> Minds HATE having nothing to do and admittedly this

> gives the thinking mind

> nothing to do but complain ... but heck it will

> complain regardless. And

> who's life is this anyway?

> Better to teach that collection of passengers who is

> the driver here.

>

> Dear mind: Waa waa -- call the waambulance.

> Meanwhile I'm just walking

> inside self-fidelity, one step at a time.

> Sue me if you don't like it.

>

> - S

>

>

> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Francque

> wrote:

>

> > All,

> >

> > Apologies if what I'm about to delve into here has

> > been covered...I try to check out most posts, but

> > there are a lot of them!

> >

> > I have the tendency to ramble also....I'll try to

> be

> > brief!

> >

> > I've been involved with ACT since last December,

> and

> > have the good fortune to be working with a great

> ACT

> > therapist. I've recently completed SCH's workbook

> > (only took 8 months...those values chapters are

> > intimidating!) and have to admit, I'm still having

> > some trouble " wrapping my head around " some of the

> > approaches unique to this great arena.

> >

> > One of my main struggles is this: when I'm fairly

> > successful at defusing from the myriad thoughts

> that

> > hit me every day (admittedly, that's not often,

> and

> > many times I can't even catch them before they

> become

> > general anxiety and malaise), I come to this

> > crossroads of " consciousness " , if you will. I can

> say

> > to myself... " gee, I'm having the thought that I'm

> > overwhelmed and don't know where to start to

> [clean my

> > apt, etc etc etc] " ...

> >

> > So I can recognize, at that point, the goal is to

> > " move in the direction of my values... " . I get

> that.

> > But where I'm getting hung up is (and please

> forgive

> > me if I'm oversimplifying, just not " getting it " ,

> or

> > playing devil's advocate a bit too strongly)

> ....where

> > does the " thinking self " end and the " observing

> self "

> > begin?

> >

> > There's a fuzzy, super-fine line there for me. And

> I'm

> > riddled with perfectionist traits, which means a

> ton

> > of all-or-nothing thinking keeps reappearing. My

> > therapist says, " do it shitty " ...which is great!

> Kind

> > of this blind, faith-filled diving in, if you

> will. I

> > can do it sometimes.

> >

> > I have such trouble moving in a " conscious " valued

> > direction without getting bombarded in all the

> ways to

> > actually, specifically do that. Does that make

> sense??

> > I may value a clean living space, but it's the

> > nitty-gritty I get beat down by. Where to start?

> How

> > much time? What is " clean " ? I usually end up

> chucking

> > it and avoiding. That part is clear as crystal.

> > Obviously, SOMETHING is better than nothing. If

> the

> > best thing I can accomplish is washing one spoon,

> can

> > I accept that? Seems impossible!

> >

> > The values and commitment part I am totally in

> line

> > with...simply put, I am having the hardest time

> > separating the " dirty noise " from the necessary

> > " cognitive activity " I actually NEED to move

> towards

> > my values.

> >

> > Nuff said! Any insight would be fantastic. Thanks

> all.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> C.

> Foundation Professor

> Department of Psychology /298

> University of Nevada

> Reno, NV 89557-0062

>

> hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

> Fax:

>

>

> Context Press (you can use for messages): (775)

> 746-2013 (

> www.contextpress.com)

>

> If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint

> slides, go to

>

http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

>

> If you are a professional or student and want to be

> part of the world wide

> ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> or

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

>

> If you are a member of the public reading ACT

> self-help books (e.g., " Get

> Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to:

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

>

[Guest guest]

What's been helpful for me is to see the observer self as me. I used

to look for that " part " of me that was the observer. I was beating

myself up for not experiencing this state of being. As if it were

either one part of me or the other and it's not. I felt bad about

thinking too much or feeling unhappy or wanting things to be

different. The observer sees all of that, is always there and is of

it self so, regardless if that self is thinking, feeling bad or

wanting whatever.

I had been obsessing about thoughts I'd have and wishing they would

go away. Then I read that it is really useless to try and try to make

a thought go away because really how could you make it stay. It takes

energy to clean a house and use a shield to fight a war against our

thinking selves. Personally to me cleaning a house sounds like more

fun.

I am feeling more like yada yada yada go ahead mind,carry on all you

want I'm for getting something done.

-

-- In ACT_for_the_Public , Francque

wrote:

>

> All,

>

> Apologies if what I'm about to delve into here has

> been covered...I try to check out most posts, but

> there are a lot of them!

>

> I have the tendency to ramble also....I'll try to be

> brief!

>

> I've been involved with ACT since last December, and

> have the good fortune to be working with a great ACT

> therapist. I've recently completed SCH's workbook

> (only took 8 months...those values chapters are

> intimidating!) and have to admit, I'm still having

> some trouble " wrapping my head around " some of the

> approaches unique to this great arena.

>

> One of my main struggles is this: when I'm fairly

> successful at defusing from the myriad thoughts that

> hit me every day (admittedly, that's not often, and

> many times I can't even catch them before they become

> general anxiety and malaise), I come to this

> crossroads of " consciousness " , if you will. I can say

> to myself... " gee, I'm having the thought that I'm

> overwhelmed and don't know where to start to [clean my

> apt, etc etc etc] " ...

>

> So I can recognize, at that point, the goal is to

> " move in the direction of my values... " . I get that.

> But where I'm getting hung up is (and please forgive

> me if I'm oversimplifying, just not " getting it " , or

> playing devil's advocate a bit too strongly) ....where

> does the " thinking self " end and the " observing self "

> begin?

>

> There's a fuzzy, super-fine line there for me. And I'm

> riddled with perfectionist traits, which means a ton

> of all-or-nothing thinking keeps reappearing. My

> therapist says, " do it shitty " ...which is great! Kind

> of this blind, faith-filled diving in, if you will. I

> can do it sometimes.

>

> I have such trouble moving in a " conscious " valued

> direction without getting bombarded in all the ways to

> actually, specifically do that. Does that make sense??

> I may value a clean living space, but it's the

> nitty-gritty I get beat down by. Where to start? How

> much time? What is " clean " ? I usually end up chucking

> it and avoiding. That part is clear as crystal.

> Obviously, SOMETHING is better than nothing. If the

> best thing I can accomplish is washing one spoon, can

> I accept that? Seems impossible!

>

> The values and commitment part I am totally in line

> with...simply put, I am having the hardest time

> separating the " dirty noise " from the necessary

> " cognitive activity " I actually NEED to move towards

> my values.

>

> Nuff said! Any insight would be fantastic. Thanks all.

>