Re: Re: more aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh..................

[Guest guest]

HI,

Is there a post that didn't get answered? Everyone tries.

I have searched for answers from past posts for some of my questions and there

is a ton of great info.

I love this list and this book and have had few problems.

Kind Regards,

Robyn

-------------- Original message ----------------------

> A few comments and questions:

>

> As someone who has participated in and also managed various Yahoo

> groups I appreciate the problems that can arise and as a new member

> here have a few thoughts:

>

> 1. Since joining I have been disappointed by how few direct

> references to ACT concepts I have read.

>

> 2. Compared to most other groups there seems to be a lack of

> information provided about moderators, who is participating who knows

> their stuff, files etc. Is this part of the philosophy of ACT?

>

> 3. I'm wondering why an ACT therapist should apologise

> for " intruding " in an ACT list - I wish more would, even though I

> appreciate professionals are busy!!

>

> 4. I'm wondering if I might get more responses to an ACT related

> question if I always put

> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh in the

> subject line<VBG>

>

>

> 5. I have also found the digest difficult to navigate due to lack of

> editing and formatting that totally screwed up the last passage

> quoted from 's book, for example, so that I got more the

> impression of a MAGIC ACT designed to distract. Luckily I have the

> book!

>

> 6. I think there are advantages in the type of forum where questions

> are separated into threads and the date of the last reply and number

> of replies is also noted. The linear format of Yahoogroups means some

> messages can easily get missed if a more exciting one crops up. Even

> the thread option of Yahoogroups is difficult to navigate in my

> opinion.

>

>

> 7. I'm wondering if as a graduate and currently a psychology student

> I am able to join one of the other groups even if just to read and

> observe and keep my mouth shut so I can't put my foot in it.

>

> Louise

>

>

>

>

>

> I am a relative newcomer to ACT but I've just decided to stop the

> daily digest from coming to my inbox. Reason: what I thought was a

> relatively simple concept a few months ago [ACT] is turning into a

> many-headed [armed and legged!! monster for me. I've actually

stopped

> reading most of it because I've found it too frustrating to wade

> through and decide might be relevant for me and my situation.

[Anyone

> else feel like this?]

> For a newbie [well, for me anyway], there are sooooooooo many

> different threads and advices that it becomes very confusing. I'm

even

> starting to wonder how effective ACT is, as a significant number of

> people don't seem to be having success with it [or other methods]

Like

> why are people continually talking about other therapies on here, I

> don't get it; it's primarily about ACT right?

> For example, the recent thread about music right; well I am a

> practising musician, composer and arranger and I can tell you right

> now, about 90% of what affects you deeply about music is subliminal

> and not 'lyrical'; it's the complex relationship and interplay of

> tones and their relationship to the natural harmonic series; which

is

> almost primitively imprinted in our psyche, our brains [God, I sound

> like a wanker now] from god knows when [have a read of MUSICOPHILIA

by

> Oliver Sachs, and the ongoing debate about what came first; music or

> language]

> It's not really so much about the lyrics baby [well, as much as we

> think it is]; they're more like the tip of the iceberg, the icing on

> the cake, [but of course create amazing beauty when they complement

> the cake nicely.]

> Besides, as an example, the lyric " Imagine there's no heaven " could

> sit easily as a reminder of a core belief for some practising ACT-

ers,

> but reflection on this lyric may trigger suicidal feelings in

another

> person. Believe me, I've been there!! [not heaven]

> Me thinks the original thread on instrumental music was more on

track..

> Anyway, bye for now, might come back when I have learned more about

ACT.

> Matto.

>

>

>

>

> --

>

[Guest guest]

Louise, I noticed your post about values, and had a moment of not wanting to say something that sounded too "know it all," and in that moment, I let that be more important than perhaps being helpful with your question. I'm sorry about that. You note that your values seem to have a flip side... I wouldn't say that this means it is not a "real" or a "good" value. In fact, when a value seems to be related to a defense like that, there is often something really precious inside of it. We don't protect things that aren't precious to us. My guess is that perfectionism defends you against something. For me it might be something like a fear that I HAVE to work really really hard or people will figure out that I don't deserve any of the opportunities I've had. That's avoidance and fusion, sure, but there's something precious inside of it. In those opportunities, I've had a chance to be part of helping people to lead rich and meaningful lives - something I care deeply about. So why is being perfect so important? Because if people found out how un-perfect I was, then I might not get a chance to be part of this thing that is tremendously important to me. The problem is, of course, that I am most useful to those I am interested in helping when I am willing to be un-perfect. When my value is really present for me, that fear is really present for me. And I have a choice. Only when I am willing to have that fear be present, without doing anything about it (such as proving how perfect I am), do I get to move forward toward that value. So that's my personal example... As an ACT therapist, I trust my clients to choose a direction. Do the directions people choose make them unhappy? Sure - only if they are really vital directions. Because the second people identify where they'd like to go, they notice where they are, and where they aren't, and they wonder if they could ever really get there... In my experience, choosing values doesn't make life easier, or the pain go away. It makes the pain For something. Hope that is helpful. And by the way, I would ditch the whole digest thing and just get individual emails. emThe other question was about values and whether personal values are necessarily "valuable". Or put another way would a therapist try to direct the client's values at all if he believed they were counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example is striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side perfectionism. Sandoz, M.S.Graduate StudentDepartment of Psychology University of Mississippiemilykennison@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Louise,

You wrote.

I'm glad you answrered then and I asked again even though I feared

that people were ignoring me because I was being pushy for a newbie

here!

I just wanted you to know I didn't answer because I don't know enough to answer

your question. I liked the question and the answer to it.

Robyn.

>

> >

> > The other question was about values and whether personal values

are

> > necessarily " valuable " . Or put another way would a therapist try

to

> > direct the client's values at all if he believed they were

> > counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that

> > suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example

is

> > striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side

perfectionism.

> >

>

> >

> >

> >

>

> Sandoz, M.S.

> Graduate Student

> Department of Psychology

> University of Mississippi

> emilykennison@...

>

>

[Guest guest]

From what I have learned here, there is an important distinction between goals and values. Goals have an ending; once achieved, whether it is getting a better job or getting married, the goal has been met when accomplished. On the other hand, values never have an ending. Wanting to be healthy as a value never ends, just as wanting to be a loving parent never ends. A value is an ongoing endeavor, if you will. So values last throughout your lifetime but goals, once met, no longer exist as goals.

That's my take on it, from what I've learned on this list and by reading the book.

Helena

Re: more aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh..................

> > >> > The other question was about values and whether personal values are> > necessarily "valuable". Or put another way would a therapist try to> > direct the client's values at all if he believed they were> > counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that> > suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example is> > striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side perfectionism.> >> > > > >> >> > Sandoz, M.S.> Graduate Student> Department of Psychology> University of Mississippi> emilykennison@...> >

[Guest guest]

that is right Helena. From an ACT perspective, values are ongoing, dynamic, evolving patterns of activity. I say patterns because they seldom involve a single behavior--rather a whole pattern of activities. I am a husband (29 years in November). Being a good husband involves a host of activities over time. I say dynamic and evolving because _what_ that cluster of activities has been has evolved over time as my wife and I have grown, changed, had kids, gone to school, worked, started careers, had and recovered from cancer. Lots of very different husband activities through 29 years of such transitions. I am glad they are evolving, because my idea of being a husband when I was 25 is miles from my understanding of that now. And, I look ahead for ways that I can be a husband in years to come. There is, in principle, no endpoint, since I cannot know what will be needed of me over time. "Husbanding" is openended as a value.Don't get the idea I am some kind of great husband or anything. I am quite capable of self indulgent, cranky, sloppy, you know, human.peace, G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax: (do not use either of these during summer)(do not leave messages on office phone)ph: (best phone number, also best for messages)fax: homepage: http://www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm From what I have learned here, there is an important distinction between goals and values. Goals have an ending; once achieved, whether it is getting a better job or getting married, the goal has been met when accomplished. On the other hand, values never have an ending. Wanting to be healthy as a value never ends, just as wanting to be a loving parent never ends. A value is an ongoing endeavor, if you will. So values last throughout your lifetime but goals, once met, no longer exist as goals. That's my take on it, from what I've learned on this list and by reading the book. Helena Re: more aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh..................> > >> > The other question was about values and whether personal values are> > necessarily "valuable". Or put another way would a therapist try to> > direct the client's values at all if he believed they were> > counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that> > suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example is> > striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side perfectionism.> >> > > > >> >> > Sandoz, M.S.> Graduate Student> Department of Psychology> University of Mississippi> emilykennison@...> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena, just to add on to Russ's email.

For me, working out values was very challenging, and the vitality only happened when I actually specified behaviours which are consistent with my values.

So, for example, I would say it goes something like:

1. Extraordinary mother, which means:

2. Being loving, attentive and nurturing, which means:

3. Making sure I read them one story a day

Spending x amount of minutes a day holding or caressing them

Smiling at them often during the day

Paying full attention (mindfulness) when they talk to me

Take them to park at least once a week

etc...

Hope that's useful, let us know how you go.

K

Re: more aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh..................> > >> > The other question was about values and whether personal values are> > necessarily "valuable". Or put another way would a therapist try to> > direct the client's values at all if he believed they were> > counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that> > suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example is> > striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side

perfectionism.> >> > > > >> >> > Sandoz, M.S.> Graduate Student> Department of Psychology> University of Mississippi> emilykennison@...> >------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go

to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: mailto:ACT_for_the_Public-digest mailto:ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*>

[Guest guest]

Hey guys, I agree with the importance of choosing specific ways to live the values you've chosen. One thing I watch for, however, is a tendency to become attached to these particular behaviors. As mentioned, these are patterns of behavior that are not defined by how they look on the outside by by whether or not they orient you toward your values. To use Katja's example, I may choose "Making sure I read them one story a day" as a part of the pattern of being an extraordinary mother. AND, I'm going to try to hold that lightly, staying open to other possibilities. Some days, holding to that story-reading rigidly could prevent me from seeing that the thing to do this evening that would be part of the pattern of being an extraordinary mother is to get to bed early because I'm getting sick. Some days, holding to that story-reading rigidly would be more about not feeling like a bad mother, and would actually be avoidance. I am not suggesting that goal setting is bad, or that Katja or Russ are being avoidant. I am just SO susceptible to falling into rigid definitions of valued living that squeeze my life down instead of opening it up - AND this is most likely in areas that are most important to me...emHi Helena, just to add on to Russ's email. For me, working out values was very challenging, and the vitality only happened when I actually specified behaviours which are consistent with my values. So, for example, I would say it goes something like: 1. Extraordinary mother, which means: 2. Being loving, attentive and nurturing, which means: 3. Making sure I read them one story a day Spending x amount of minutes a day holding or caressing them Smiling at them often during the day Paying full attention (mindfulness) when they talk to me Take them to park at least once a week etc... Hope that's useful, let us know how you go.K Re: more aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh..................> > >> > The other question was about values and whether personal values are> > necessarily "valuable". Or put another way would a therapist try to> > direct the client's values at all if he believed they were> > counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that> > suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example is> > striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side perfectionism.> >> > > > >> >> > Sandoz, M.S.> Graduate Student> Department of Psychology> University of Mississippi> emilykennison@...> >------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe

[Guest guest]

Completely agree with you , it can become a rigid thing.

I felt that with my exercises and had to ask myself what was the purpose of doing it before I would go out to do it. Some days it was avoidance - I would want to do it cos' I was restless, so I would not do it and that felt pretty powerful too. Instead, I would do something else for my health/fitness (e.g. eat a piece of fruit) or not do anything at all.

So, in your example, what would be the purpose of going to bed early if you are feeling sick? My guess is - to get a good night's sleep, feel better and have more energy the next day. My guess is also that if you are rested you are likely to be more patient and attentive with children. Well, isn't that one of your values? I see values as lights in the dark and as long as we move towards them, it doesn't matter which route or how many routes we take.

Same with the rigidity of "having to" read the story. What is the purpose of reading the book that particular day? Is it to avoid fusion with mind's judgment when it tells you "you are rigid"? Is it to avoid fusion with mind's judgment if you dont do it? No matter what you do, the mind will always judge. So, why not observe that and do anything consistent with your motherhood values. Holding it "light" will come with time too.

And just to share something that might be of help to people - I recently joined a meditation class and when my therapist asked me about the purpose of it, I had to admit that yes, there was a hidden agenda of hoping that meditating will help me conquer the anxiety when sitting in silence with other people. However, she then asked: "If you were not anxious, what would be the purpose of practicing meditation?" and the purpose I found would be to become more present in the moment (e.g. observing more, sensing more, etc) and this is in accordance with my values. She then asked if it would be OK to feel anxious and meditate to sense more of the world around me and the answer was a definite YES. When this is clarified, the agenda of avoidance becomes much weaker. So, some of us have to dig deep and long before the values become clearer and sometimes the mind can trick us about the purpose of it too.

Hope I haven't confused you. :-)

K

[ACT_for_the_ Public] Re: more aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrg ggggggghhhhhhhhh h........ ......... .> > >> > The other question was about values and whether personal values are> > necessarily "valuable". Or put another way would a therapist try to> > direct the client's values at all if he believed they were> >

counterproductive or likely to make the client unhappy. Or is that> > suggestion totally alien to ACT? One value (?) I have for example is> > striving for excellence which obviously has a flip side perfectionism.> >> > > > >> >> > Sandoz, M.S.> Graduate Student> Department of Psychology> University of Mississippi> emilykennison@ ...> >------------ --------- --------- ------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych ology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri beyahoogroups (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena,

No we don’t do cognitive restructuring in ACT. We just aim to hold our

thoughts lightly, and not get too caught up in them. There are days my mind says

I am a wonderful Dad, other days it says I am a lousy Dad. This sort of negative

self-judgment happens for just about everyone on the planet, and cognitive

restructuring does not stop it from happening. In CBT you would debate the

negative self-judgment when it shows up. In ACT, you aim to hold all

self-judgments lightly, neither challenging them nor buying into them, because

regardless of whether they are positive or negative, they are not you. And, they

keep on changing.

Cheers, Russ

Russ

PO Box 5079

Alphington, Vic 3058

www.thehappinesstrap.com

www.actmindfully.com.au

From: ACT_for_the_Public

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Louise

Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 12:22 AM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: Re: more

aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh..................

>

>

> Hi Helena,

> Another useful metaphor is to think of a value as a glue: it glues

together the tiniest little action to the biggest long term goal. If

you value helping others, that glues together opening the door for a

stranger, becoming a doctor, starting an orphanage in Ethiopia,

helping a little old lady across the road, or putting food on the

table for your kids. So even if you never achieve the specific goal

of becoming a doctor or starting an orphanage, there are an infinite

number of ways, both large and small, of acting on the underlying

value, any time and any place.

>

> Also, it’s generally more useful to put values in terms of what

you want to do, rather than in terms of who you want to be.

I find this really helpful! I still think I may be using the words

goals and values in my own personal way but seeing values in terms of

what you want to do seems to imply starting with some behaviooural

goals based on " where you want to be with your life " .

Small goals were very important for me at the start of therapy as I

was totally overwhelmed and paralysed by my OCD and depression. I

needed to take small risks to see small changes were possible.

Thinking back though a lot of my work has involved looking at my

values as I would not have had my obsession about fraud and fear the

consequences of speaking to people if I did not overvalue honesty and

openness.

Funnily enough much of my depression started from valuing being a

good daughter in impossible circumstances. Maybe sometimes values are

totally out of reach?

Thus to identify that you want to be a good husband or an

extraordinary mother is a useful starting point, but it’s rather

vague and fuzzy. So once you’ve identified this desired self-

description, you next want to ask: How would you need to behave in

order to be able to honestly call yourself a good husband or an

extraordinary mother? What personal qualities or character strengths

would you want to cultivate? How would you want to act on an ongoing

basis, in order to fulfil that desired self-description?

Yes, the small steps are as important as the general philosophy as a

motivator as wel, aren't they?

>

> Thus you might well start off with something like I want to be an

extraordinary mother or a good husband. Then, from asking the

questions above, you could uncover more specific values such as I

want to be loving and supportive or I want to be compassionate and

fair or I want to be understanding and respectful or I want to be

attentive and nurturing. Note that in any moment you can either act

or not act on these values †" the choice is yours. But whether or

not your mind judges you as an extraordinary mother or a good husband

is something over which you have no control.

That last thought bothers me! Surely looking at such judgements and

reappraising them is possible if they are the fruit of your thinking?

Isn't cognitive restructuring part of ACT?

Louise

[Guest guest]

The reason we usually say " try CBT first " for some thingsisn't politics so much as values -- our science values are aboveour positive views of ACT. Traditional CBT has the data in some areas

that ACT does not. That is changing ... I think ACT right now has a better understanding of why it worksthan traditional CBT does.In traditional CBT the part of cognitive restructuring that can work most readily is the

part that encourages cognitive flexibility -- there are lots of ways of thinkingabout ourselves and our problems. That part is in ACT too (like the rewrite yourstory exercise in GOOYM & IYL). If you can stay away from any avoidant,

struggle-like qualities that can come from cognitive restructuringthere is some utility. But it can backfire and we think it is safer to do what Russ was describing ... learn tolook at your thoughts, and to notice they are distinct from the

aware part of you. You can still use them if you need them, orthink other things, or just let them lie there if you know from experiencethat these have no real use (e.g., ruminative self-critical thoughts)All upside ... and we know when you have cognitive, emotional, and behavioral

flexibility like that life begins to open up.- S

Thanks, Russ. Actually I was the one who asked that question.(Louise)

That is interesting to me as it tells me that ACT as 3rd generation

CBT is not actually building on CBT but disagreeing with some of the

foundations of CBT,

It sounds like a very worthy aim to hold all self-judgements lightly

but if you have gone through years of abise for example those

judgements about yourself will seem to be who you are even if you are

told they are not.

So does ACT reject schema totally?

Isn't it rather unrealistic for someone to expect to be able to

reject their history (and their way of thinking over the years IS

part of their hisotory, isn't it?) in one fell swoop. I was reminded

of philosophy in what I'd read here so far rather than therapy. Now

I'm thinking more religion as this seems to imply a religious

conversion, a sort of rebirth as a new person.

But surely most people will come to ACt after having tried some sort

of cognitive restructuring. Is there any research comparing the

progress of people using ACT who have never had any other sort of

therapy such as " traditional " CBT with those who have had other

treatments beforehand?

At the OCF conference those ACT presenters I heard seemed to be

saying that it was sensible to try traditional CBT first or was this

just so that they didn't go against some sort of policy the OCF

support?

I'm sure there is a similar message to try out traditional CBT first

in Get out of your mind etc. (I finally realised that the acronym

people use for that wasn't an bit of ACT jargon I hadn't yet come to

in 's book<lol>) Ah, I've found it on page 10.

I don't think I would ever have had the confidence to just hold the

very negative beliefs I've had about myself lightly without having

done some cognitive restructuring in the first place to allow me to

be ready to chnage my ideas about myself.

My self-judgements will indeed keep changing but why is it unhelpful

to use my power of thought (which I agree has had some very unhelpful

effects due to evolution) to my own advanateg?

Surely choosing values also involves some sort of judgement,

comparing one value with another, and values can change over a

lifetime too?

Louise

>

>

> Hi Helena,

> No we don't do cognitive restructuring in ACT. We just aim to

hold our thoughts lightly, and not get too caught up in them. There

are days my mind says I am a wonderful Dad, other days it says I am a

lousy Dad. This sort of negative self-judgment happens for just about

everyone on the planet, and cognitive restructuring does not stop it

from happening. In CBT you would debate the negative self-judgment

when it shows up. In ACT, you aim to hold all self-judgments lightly,

neither challenging them nor buying into them, because regardless of

whether they are positive or negative, they are not you. And, they

keep on changing.

>

> Cheers, Russ

>

> Russ

> PO Box 5079

> Alphington, Vic 3058

>

> www.thehappinesstrap.com

> www.actmindfully.com.au

-- C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Context Press (you can use for messages): (www.contextpress.com)If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, go to http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join