RE: Re: Panic Attack on Live TV

November 21, 2008

Hi Debbie,

Were you addressing this to me? Because I too have been told over and over that

fainting almost never happens from panic attacks. I would like to know if I was

wrong. Or actually since I think we are what we think, maybe I dont' want to

know. LOL.

Robyn

--------- Panic Attack on Live TV> > >> > > act_for_the_public > > >> > > Attorney General Mukasey had a panic attack on live television. I> > > can't imagine what that must have been like for him. In reading news> > > reports, although the exact words "panic attack" are not used, there are> > > code words – he had a long day, the lights were hot, he seemed stressed> > > earlier, etc. All his test results were made public, so the whole world> > > knows he didn't have a physical problem.> > >> > >> > >> > > My heart goes out to him, I know how truly horrific it can feel to have a> > > panic attack in front of one person – but on YouTube, to be subject to mean> > > comments and weeks of humiliation? It's just not fair.> > >> > >> > >> > > I wish there was a way the ACT professional community could use this> > > incident as a means of education about panic disorder and anxiety disorder,> > > but I doubt Mukasey would go for it, maybe once he leaves office? It seems> > > like such an opportunity wasted, think how many people could be helped if we> > > could link what happened to what happens to everyone – if we can link it to> > > the normal.> > >> > >> > >> > > The best thing about ACT is realizing that I'm normal, that everyone has> > > fear thoughts, I just buy into them. Maybe this guy usually didn't buy into> > > his fear thoughts, but during that speech he did, or maybe he's had this> > > problem for awhile but hadn't had an attack in public, who knows.> > >> > >> > >> > > We have seen people with eating disorders seek treatment after celebrities> > > give interviews and talk about it; I wish I could say the same for panic> > > disorder. Steve has had severe panic disorder since he was 20. He> > > writes about it in his book, and he doesn't talk about treatment. I think,> > > honestly, he still has to deal with panic triggers 40 years later.> > >> > >> > >> > > Part of the problem that before ACT was introduced to the general public,> > > the only treatment was drugs, and stars seem reluctant to talk about> > > antidepressant use. Still, if ACT could "hitch" its wagon to a star, it> > > could gain more notoriety and help a lot of people.> > >> > >> > >> > > I have a good friend who is a physician. Although he specializes in> > > gastroenterology, when he encounters patients who have anxiety related> > > issues he advocates meditation. When I told him about ACT and its approach> > > to mediation, he was very impressed. Another way that ACT can become more> > > established is through the medical community. Every doctor I've spoken to is> > > incredibly impressed with ACT, because it promotes such a healthy and honest> > > relationship with the body and its sensations. This might be a matter of> > > simple marketing – create an "ACT Packet" and send to physicians with an> > > interest in learning more about anxiety issues, who knows?> > >> > >> > >> > > Anyway, there's some food for thought. If there are any professional> > > members in this public group who would be kind enough to forward this> > > message to the professional group, I would appreciate it. Of course, I also> > > welcome feedback from my compatriots in the public group as well.> > >> > >> > >> > > Thanks,> > >> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>

November 21, 2008

Robyn -- You are not your fainting.

Panic is fear -- a response designed to mobilize you to take action to protect yourself. It includes many experiences -- meaning it is not one thing, but many things. And, in my experience (personal and professional), fainting is not the most typical reaction. IMHO, the Attorney General Mukasey did not look as though he was in the midst of a panic attack. Yet, he was in the midst of his body doing something outside his control. And, as that unfolded, he was naturally faced with how others would react to him (e.g., shock and awe, disgust, maybe even compassion), and these reactions of others being outside his control too (key experience to notice). So, the choice here is not what his body was doing or how others would react to him -- in fact, I'd bet his intentions were not to pass out during his talk. Rather, the choice is what to do next, and next, and next.

Does he live in the service of making sure that his body does not do that again, or does he find a way to be with that, take care of himself as best he can, and then do what he can to move forward in his life? I say that, in part, because I know that reaction too, the exception being this: I did not faint. My heart was pounding out of my chest, and I literally ran with sweat -- drenched, at home, with my wife away, dizzy, and with responsibility for the welfare for my three little kids (all very little at the time). I didn't ask for what I experienced -- it happened. And yes, I thought that maybe I would drop dead, and then what? -- who would care for my kids? Consciously, I found a way to just be with it, and ride it out. It passed. And, it wasn't easy. Yet, it passed and I moved on. I think about that experience now and then and often wonder " what the hell was that? " The truth? I may never know. And, I don't really care to know either. My mind can create an infinite number of reasons for what happened. That's what minds do quite well. At this point, I am unwilling to make my life be about not having that again. No way. That's me drawing a line in the sand. I am no stronger or better than anyone else. I just take one day at a time, conscious of what I want to be about.

I say all this with compassion and a sense of urgency. Life is too short. At some point all of us need to face our deepest fears and find a way to make the most out of this one precious life. This community is about that. And, I am grateful to you and others for sharing your personal journey into a more vital life.

Peace -john

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology, SS369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

Email: forsyth@...

Web Sites:

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Re: Re: Panic Attack on Live TV

Hi Debbie,

Were you addressing this to me? Because I too have been told over and over that fainting almost never happens from panic attacks. I would like to know if I was wrong. Or actually since I think we are what we think, maybe I dont' want to know. LOL.

Robyn

--------- Panic Attack on Live TV

> > > >

> > > > act_for_the_public

> > > >

> > > > Attorney General Mukasey had a panic attack on live

> television. I

> > > > can't imagine what that must have been like for him. In reading

> news

> > > > reports, although the exact words " panic attack " are not used,

> there are

> > > > code words - he had a long day, the lights were hot, he seemed

> stressed

> > > > earlier, etc. All his test results were made public, so the whole

> world

> > > > knows he didn't have a physical problem.

> > > >

> > > > My heart goes out to him, I know how truly horrific it can feel to

> have a

> > > > panic attack in front of one person - but on YouTube, to be

> subject to mean

> > > > comments and weeks of humiliation? It's just not fair.

> > > >

> > > > I wish there was a way the ACT professional community could use

> this

> > > > incident as a means of education about panic disorder and anxiety

> disorder,

> > > > but I doubt Mukasey would go for it, maybe once he leaves office?

> It seems

> > > > like such an opportunity wasted, think how many people could be

> helped if we

> > > > could link what happened to what happens to everyone - if we

> can link it to

> > > > the normal.

> > > >

> > > > The best thing about ACT is realizing that I'm normal, that

> everyone has

> > > > fear thoughts, I just buy into them. Maybe this guy usually didn't

> buy into

> > > > his fear thoughts, but during that speech he did, or maybe he's

> had this

> > > > problem for awhile but hadn't had an attack in public, who knows.

> > > >

> > > > We have seen people with eating disorders seek treatment after

> celebrities

> > > > give interviews and talk about it; I wish I could say the same for

> panic

> > > > disorder. Steve has had severe panic disorder since he was

> 20. He

> > > > writes about it in his book, and he doesn't talk about treatment.

> I think,

> > > > honestly, he still has to deal with panic triggers 40 years later.

> > > >

> > > > Part of the problem that before ACT was introduced to the general

> public,

> > > > the only treatment was drugs, and stars seem reluctant to talk

> about

> > > > antidepressant use. Still, if ACT could " hitch " its wagon to a

> star, it

> > > > could gain more notoriety and help a lot of people.

> > > >

> > > > I have a good friend who is a physician. Although he specializes

> in

> > > > gastroenterology, when he encounters patients who have anxiety

> related

> > > > issues he advocates meditation. When I told him about ACT and its

> approach

> > > > to mediation, he was very impressed. Another way that ACT can

> become more

> > > > established is through the medical community. Every doctor I've

> spoken to is

> > > > incredibly impressed with ACT, because it promotes such a healthy

> and honest

> > > > relationship with the body and its sensations. This might be a

> matter of

> > > > simple marketing - create an " ACT Packet " and send to

> physicians with an

> > > > interest in learning more about anxiety issues, who knows?

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, there's some food for thought. If there are any

> professional

> > > > members in this public group who would be kind enough to forward

> this

> > > > message to the professional group, I would appreciate it. Of

> course, I also

> > > > welcome feedback from my compatriots in the public group as well.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 21, 2008

Hi Debbie -- Thanks for sharing. I'm sure that was hard to do. I'll take a crack at your question below.

" My question is this- i know in ACT, we are taught that " controlling "

anxiety only causes us to struggle with it which can make things

worse. But what do you do when you are hyperventilating with an

anxiety attack? "

** My Two Cents: Look, there is nothing in ACT that says don't do what is helpful. In fact, you might remember the solution to hyperventilation we learned as kids -- breathe into a bag. Why? Because it works. I played sports as a kid and every once in a while I'd get the wind knocked out of me and end up gasping for breath -- the solution? Breath deeply and slowly, or if possible into my hands or a bag. It does work when and if hyperventilation is the culprit. Remember this -- hyperventilation is not always the culprit. Sometimes it is how we respond to what we think or feel.

I know that passing out can seem frightening. The reality is that most folks survive passing out, and without significant injury. The most upsetting thing about passing out is often the embarrassment of doing so. So, here we all face the willingness question -- are we willing to pass out, noticing that (a) this is not a choice and ( that we have no control over how others respond to that. I put this out there because contacting these distinctions can be beneficial in the sense of moving forward with one's life. Not always, but sometimes.

My fear is that if i don't attempt to control my breathing when the

symptoms of hyperventilation occur with my anxiety, that i will pass

out again. I think if i am aware i am hyperventilating, at least

with my day panic attacks, should i not attempt to correct my

overbreathing?

Any thoughts on how to approach hyperventilation, from an ACT

perspective?

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology, SS369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

Email: forsyth@...

Web Sites:

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Re: Panic Attack on Live TV

I was also taught you cant faint from a panic attack. My experience

tells me otherwise. I apologise if i scare anyone, so please only

read on if you choose to, as i explain what happened to me on the

issue of fainting and panic........

I also ask the question about how to deal with hyperventilation from

the ACT perspective.

........

I have night panic attacks, where i awake at night in full panic

attack, hyperventilating, drenched in sweat, feeling hot/cold,

dizzy, shakey. They are extremely frightening. I have had physical

causes ruled out, and these attacks have been put down to my anxiety

disorder, which to me makes sense, as they tend to recurr when i go

through highly stressful periods in my life.

I too was told by my GP, and psychiatrist 10 years ago it is

impossible that one could faint from a panic attack, even though one

feels like they are going to faint it is next to impossible that it

will occur because being keyed up in the flight fight response,

usually raises your blood pressure, whereas fainting occurs with low

blood pressure. (Dont know if this is medically accurate, but i

accepted it, as that is what the professionals were telling me).

Last month, I had probably the worse night attack that i have ever

experienced. I was awoken midsleep with all the usual anxiety

symptoms- I recognised i was hyperventilating, short shallow

breathes, my mouth felt parched, and my chest felt tight (and what i

usually do is slow down my breathing and work 3sec in 3 sec out

breathing, which has worked for me for 10 yrs, and is a technique i

was taught as part of CBT). However this time, i turned the light

on, and sat up on the edge of my bed, poured a glass a water (my

usual WAFs were screaming at me at how horrible this was feeling, i

was going to die etc)

and so i got ready to count my breathing and slow it down, when all

of a sudden my vision went fuzzy, bright white, then black, and then

i felt my self come through again. im sure i had fainted.

Went to a dr the next day (not my usual dr, as i was convinced there

was something physically wrong with me that my regular dr had

missed); he took my blood pressure, did blood tests. As usual,

everything was normal.

My question is this- i know in ACT, we are taught that " controlling "

anxiety only causes us to struggle with it which can make things

worse. But what do you do when you are hyperventilating with an

anxiety attack?

My fear is that if i don't attempt to control my breathing when the

symptoms of hyperventilation occur with my anxiety, that i will pass

out again. I think if i am aware i am hyperventilating, at least

with my day panic attacks, should i not attempt to correct my

overbreathing?

Any thoughts on how to approach hyperventilation, from an ACT

perspective?

> > > > >

> > > > > > Hi ,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No offense but few people faint from Anxiety Attacks. It

is

> funny

> > > because I

> > > > > > am talking from my wise mind right now. Usually I would

be

> > > freaking out and

> > > > > > worried that would happen to me. I don't think it was a

panic

> > > attack.

> > > > > > Usually people who have panic dont' faint.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Robyn

> > > > > > --------- Panic Attack on Live TV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > act_for_the_public

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Attorney General Mukasey had a panic attack on

live

> > > television. I

> > > > > > can't imagine what that must have been like for him. In

> reading

> > > news

> > > > > > reports, although the exact words " panic attack " are not

used,

> > > there are

> > > > > > code words - he had a long day, the lights were hot, he

> seemed

> > > stressed

> > > > > > earlier, etc. All his test results were made public, so

the

> whole

> > > world

> > > > > > knows he didn't have a physical problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My heart goes out to him, I know how truly horrific it

can

> feel to

> > > have a

> > > > > > panic attack in front of one person - but on YouTube, to

> be

> > > subject to mean

> > > > > > comments and weeks of humiliation? It's just not fair.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wish there was a way the ACT professional community

could

> use

> > > this

> > > > > > incident as a means of education about panic disorder and

> anxiety

> > > disorder,

> > > > > > but I doubt Mukasey would go for it, maybe once he leaves

> office?

> > > It seems

> > > > > > like such an opportunity wasted, think how many people

could

> be

> > > helped if we

> > > > > > could link what happened to what happens to everyone - if

> we

> > > can link it to

> > > > > > the normal.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The best thing about ACT is realizing that I'm normal,

that

> > > everyone has

> > > > > > fear thoughts, I just buy into them. Maybe this guy

usually

> didn't

> > > buy into

> > > > > > his fear thoughts, but during that speech he did, or

maybe

> he's

> > > had this

> > > > > > problem for awhile but hadn't had an attack in public,

who

> knows.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We have seen people with eating disorders seek treatment

after

> > > celebrities

> > > > > > give interviews and talk about it; I wish I could say

the same

> for

> > > panic

> > > > > > disorder. Steve has had severe panic disorder

since he

> was

> > > 20. He

> > > > > > writes about it in his book, and he doesn't talk about

> treatment.

> > > I think,

> > > > > > honestly, he still has to deal with panic triggers 40

years

> later.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Part of the problem that before ACT was introduced to the

> general

> > > public,

> > > > > > the only treatment was drugs, and stars seem reluctant

to talk

> > > about

> > > > > > antidepressant use. Still, if ACT could " hitch " its

wagon to a

> > > star, it

> > > > > > could gain more notoriety and help a lot of people.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have a good friend who is a physician. Although he

> specializes

> > > in

> > > > > > gastroenterology, when he encounters patients who have

anxiety

> > > related

> > > > > > issues he advocates meditation. When I told him about

ACT and

> its

> > > approach

> > > > > > to mediation, he was very impressed. Another way that

ACT can

> > > become more

> > > > > > established is through the medical community. Every

doctor

> I've

> > > spoken to is

> > > > > > incredibly impressed with ACT, because it promotes such a

> healthy

> > > and honest

> > > > > > relationship with the body and its sensations. This

might be a

> > > matter of

> > > > > > simple marketing - create an " ACT Packet " and send to

> > > physicians with an

> > > > > > interest in learning more about anxiety issues, who

knows?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anyway, there's some food for thought. If there are any

> > > professional

> > > > > > members in this public group who would be kind enough to

> forward

> > > this

> > > > > > message to the professional group, I would appreciate

it. Of

> > > course, I also

> > > > > > welcome feedback from my compatriots in the public group

as

> well.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 21, 2008

Hi All,

Just a few thoughts.

Firstly on fainting and anxiety. Anxiety only extremely rarely leads

to fainting. This is because typically anxiety increases blood pressure,

whereas fainting requires a drop in blood pressure. My understanding is the only

anxiety disorder that is proven to occasionally cause fainting is blood phobia,

due to a vaso-vagal reaction (that Robyn mentioned earlier in this thread)

which leads to a precipitous drop in blood pressure. And these reactions are very

rare, even in those with blood phobia. Alas, Tony Soprano, on the TV show “The

Sopranos”, popularised the myth that panic attacks lead to fainting.

Secondly on heart attacks. The bad news is, if you have coronary

artery disease, then in rare cases the coronary artery can go into spasm during

a panic-attack, and this can lead to a heart-attack. It was only discovered

about 5 or 6 years ago, so some physicians and therapists may not know this

information, and some self-help books – especially those published more

than 6 years ago - may claim that no one has ever had a heart attack as a result

of a panic attack. The good news is, this is quite rare. And note – it only

happens when people already have significant coronary artery disease.

Thirdly, re hyperventilation. The ACT stance is accept what is

OUT of your control. Your breathing rate is within your control, so it makes

sense to slow it down, if doing so is useful in helping you to improve your

quality of life. The challenge is, can you align slow deep diaphragmatic breathing

to your values, rather than doing it primarily to avoid or reduce anxiety. When

you hyperventilate, you alter the levels of the oxygen and carbon dioxide in

your blood in ways that are not ideal for maximising your health and wellbeing.

So can you slow and deepen your breathing guided by values around

respecting and caring for your body, rather than being motivated primarily by

the desire to control how you feel? And can you turn that slow, deep

diaphragmatic breathing into a mindfulness practice, rather than use it as an

emotional control strategy? Think of mindful slow, deep breathing as dropping

an anchor in the midst of an emotional storm. You don’t drop anchor to make

the storm go away – you use it to hold you steady until the storm passes.

Sometimes when you use your breath as an anchor in this way, you find that the

storm will pass very quickly - especially if most of the turbulence is due

primarily to hyperventilation. And sometimes the storm will pass very slowly,

or even get worse before it gets better. Either way, the anchor holds you steady.

Finally, re the previous thread on anger – I just want to

second that Forsyth’s book, ‘ACT On Life, Not an Anger’

is an excellent read, packed full of useful info and lovely exercises.

All the best,

Cheers, Russ

Russ

PO Box 5079

Alphington, Vic 3058

www.thehappinesstrap.com

www.actmindfully.com.au

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ]

On Behalf Of P Forsyth

Sent: Saturday, 22 November 2008 2:51 PM

To: ACT_for_the_Public ;

ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: RE: Re: Panic Attack on Live TV

Hi Debbie --

Thanks for sharing. I'm sure that was hard to do. I'll take a crack

at your question below.

" My question is this- i know in ACT, we are taught that " controlling "

anxiety only causes us to struggle with it which can make things

worse. But what do you do when you are hyperventilating with an

anxiety attack? "

** My Two Cents: Look, there is nothing in ACT that says don't do what is

helpful. In fact, you might remember the solution to hyperventilation we

learned as kids -- breathe into a bag. Why? Because it works.

I played sports as a kid and every once in a while I'd get the wind knocked out

of me and end up gasping for breath -- the solution? Breath deeply and

slowly, or if possible into my hands or a bag. It does work when and if

hyperventilation is the culprit. Remember this -- hyperventilation is not

always the culprit. Sometimes it is how we respond to what we think or

feel.

I know that passing out can seem frightening. The reality is that most

folks survive passing out, and without significant injury. The most

upsetting thing about passing out is often the embarrassment of doing so.

So, here we all face the willingness question -- are we willing to pass out,

noticing that (a) this is not a choice and ( that we have no control over how

others respond to that. I put this out there because contacting these

distinctions can be beneficial in the sense of moving forward with one's life.

Not always, but sometimes.