Choices

[Guest guest]

It doesn't seem to me to be a question of if we have free will or

not that is important. It is about choices we make and as long as we

are living life there will be a choice to make that's for sure. In my

life I have been making it a point to have more confidence in my

decisions and some have been very difficult lately. I try to be

willing to have the uncertainty about the outcome instead of getting

anxious about it. There is no point for me personally to wonder about

fate or my own volition. That just seems to add another aspect of

anxiety for me.

There seems to be an aspect of guilt that a lot of people get

caught up in about choices. For me I can get entangled with this and

it has been very helpful to not judge my self (thanks Happiness Trap

chapter 22 and 23) It can be a mindless negative feedback loop. It

never seems a good idea for me to ask why. More important is what can

I do, where can I get help, when is the best time to deal with this,

and how might be the best way. None of these possibilities come to

mind when I am so caught up in feeling bad about myself and the

thoughts I am having. There are probably an infinite number of

reasons `why' so I don't even want to go there. Then I am left with a

better choice once I realize I am obsessing. What I need to remember

to ask is how can I make choices that support my values.

Everyone has their own sense of their lives, what they struggle

with and what has meaning for them. It seems we are better off to

think that we can all accept the mystery and believe in our

possibilities then trust ourselves. For me here I am> I know the

value of nothing> I want to live a fulfilling life so I show up>I let

go>I get moving. It's all easier said than done. Each of us can get

hung up anywhere along the way. Please be kind to your selves and

each other in what were about at this moment.

I am doing much better lately and am more optimistic. I am

enjoying learning more about ACT and am surprised the many ways it

fits with different practices, philosophies and processes for mental

health. I am hopeful that we can all find peace with our past and

courage in living life given the choices we will make.

[Guest guest]

For me, the ACT-relevant question is this: do we genuinely deserve

praise or blame for the way things go in our lives? I say no,

emphatically.

Let me make the point with an example. My inherited faith, Roman

Catholicism, teaches that Jesus lived a sinless life. He never once

committed a sin, not even a small sin. How, you ask, did he manage

to do that? The answer is that he was born without original sin.

But wait. If the only reason Jesus lived a sinless life is that he

was born without original sin, then why does he deserve special

credit for the way his life went? He didn't choose the circumstances

of his birth. If the circumstances of his birth had been different,

i.e., if He had been born as Regular Joe Blow instead of the Son of

God, he would have sinned all over the place. So again, why should

He receive special praise for the way his life went?

Now, someone might say, " But he made the choice to live a noble life,

that's why he deserves credit. " OK, but the only reason he chose to

live a noble life is because he was lucky enough to be born with a

certain kind of personality, a divine personality. If he had been

born with a regular personality, he would not have lived a sinless

life. So again, why the special praise?

The point is this. Things in the universe have causes. As parts of

the universe, we are no exception. Yes, we make choices. But our

choices have well-defined causes in our brains and in our external

environments. They do not occur in a vacuum.

Now, how is this ACT-relevant?

As human beings, we have an incredibly strong tendency to think of

ourselves and of other people as 'good' or 'bad', 'guilty'

or 'innocent', 'worthy' or 'unworthy', and so on. We tend to

internalize and identify with our achievements and shortcomings.

Consider an example. Suppose that someone tells you that you talk to

much, and that you're sometimes annoying. How do you react? You get

defensive. That kind of comment hits you in the gut. It makes you

feel low, ashamed, and so on.

But why should you feel that way? What makes you responsible for the

fact that you have a certain kind of talkative personality, and that

your personality happens to annoy someone else? You are not the

cause of your personality. You are not responsible for it. You

didn't ask to be who you are. So why should you be blamed?

Any person who was born with your set of contingencies--your genes,

your environment, your parents, your experiences, your

neurochemistry, and so on--would have lived the exact same life that

you have lived. They would have made the same choices that you made

at every point. So why do you deserve special credit or blame for

the way that your life has gone?

If you can see yourself--your thoughts, feelings, choices, decisions,

achievements, shortcomings, personality traits, looks, diseases,

phobias, mistakes, and so on--for what they are, parts of nature, not

things that 'belong' to you in some deep heavy sense, it becomes

easier for you to let go and accept whatever happens in your life.

You can bounce back from mistakes more easily. You can accept

criticism and use it constructively to make things better going

forward. You can give yourself and other people a break. Things

don't stick to you, because it's no longer about you. You are just a

set of contingencies unfolding in nature. Who cares if they happen

to be a certain way?

In CBT, when someone feels that they are a 'bad' person, the

therapist says,

" No, you're not a bad person! You're a good person! Here are some

reasons why. You're a good mother to your child, you're nice to

other people, you're a member of your local charity, bla bla bla bla

bla. "

But see, this approach gets inside the language of 'praise'

and 'blame', as if it were possible for a person to really deserve to

be praised for the fact that they happen to have a compassionate

personality, or a strong love for a child, or an inclination to join

a local charity.

We don't want play that game. It's dangerous. We wan't to get

outside of the language of 'praise' and 'blame' altogether. We want

to see ourselves for what we actually are--parts of a larger whole,

not self-creating selves. When we see ourselves in that way, it

becomes much easier to accept ourselves and our situations going

forward. We can see our pride, arrogance, guilt, shame, and so on as

just temporary feelings that our minds create, rather than as true

statements about how we should be judged in this life.

For those who want to read more, I HIGHLY recommend the following

article:

http://www.naturalism.org/strawson.htm

>

> It doesn't seem to me to be a question of if we have free will or

> not that is important. It is about choices we make and as long as

we

> are living life there will be a choice to make that's for sure. In

my

> life I have been making it a point to have more confidence in my

> decisions and some have been very difficult lately. I try to be

> willing to have the uncertainty about the outcome instead of

getting

> anxious about it. There is no point for me personally to wonder

about

> fate or my own volition. That just seems to add another aspect of

> anxiety for me.

>

> There seems to be an aspect of guilt that a lot of people get

> caught up in about choices. For me I can get entangled with this

and

> it has been very helpful to not judge my self (thanks Happiness

Trap

> chapter 22 and 23) It can be a mindless negative feedback loop. It

> never seems a good idea for me to ask why. More important is what

can

> I do, where can I get help, when is the best time to deal with

this,

> and how might be the best way. None of these possibilities come to

> mind when I am so caught up in feeling bad about myself and the

> thoughts I am having. There are probably an infinite number of

> reasons `why' so I don't even want to go there. Then I am left with

a

> better choice once I realize I am obsessing. What I need to

remember

> to ask is how can I make choices that support my values.

>

> Everyone has their own sense of their lives, what they struggle

> with and what has meaning for them. It seems we are better off to

> think that we can all accept the mystery and believe in our

> possibilities then trust ourselves. For me here I am> I know the

> value of nothing> I want to live a fulfilling life so I show up>I

let

> go>I get moving. It's all easier said than done. Each of us can get

> hung up anywhere along the way. Please be kind to your selves and

> each other in what were about at this moment.

>

> I am doing much better lately and am more optimistic. I am

> enjoying learning more about ACT and am surprised the many ways it

> fits with different practices, philosophies and processes for

mental

> health. I am hopeful that we can all find peace with our past and

> courage in living life given the choices we will make.

>

[Guest guest]

That makes a lot of sense to me , and I can see how that helps

people. Who's the braver, the one who is normally scared but does

something really brave, or the one who finds it easy to be brave and

never gets scared. As ACT say's, we are far too complex to make

simple judgements about ourselves, so it's best not to get too

entangled with it or take it too seriously.

Kavy

> >

> > It doesn't seem to me to be a question of if we have free will

or

> > not that is important. It is about choices we make and as long as

> we

> > are living life there will be a choice to make that's for sure.

In

> my

> > life I have been making it a point to have more confidence in my

> > decisions and some have been very difficult lately. I try to be

> > willing to have the uncertainty about the outcome instead of

> getting

> > anxious about it. There is no point for me personally to wonder

> about

> > fate or my own volition. That just seems to add another aspect of

> > anxiety for me.

> >

> > There seems to be an aspect of guilt that a lot of people get

> > caught up in about choices. For me I can get entangled with this

> and

> > it has been very helpful to not judge my self (thanks Happiness

> Trap

> > chapter 22 and 23) It can be a mindless negative feedback loop.

It

> > never seems a good idea for me to ask why. More important is what

> can

> > I do, where can I get help, when is the best time to deal with

> this,

> > and how might be the best way. None of these possibilities come

to

> > mind when I am so caught up in feeling bad about myself and the

> > thoughts I am having. There are probably an infinite number of

> > reasons `why' so I don't even want to go there. Then I am left

with

> a

> > better choice once I realize I am obsessing. What I need to

> remember

> > to ask is how can I make choices that support my values.

> >

> > Everyone has their own sense of their lives, what they

struggle

> > with and what has meaning for them. It seems we are better off to

> > think that we can all accept the mystery and believe in our

> > possibilities then trust ourselves. For me here I am> I know the

> > value of nothing> I want to live a fulfilling life so I show up>I

> let

> > go>I get moving. It's all easier said than done. Each of us can

get

> > hung up anywhere along the way. Please be kind to your selves and

> > each other in what were about at this moment.

> >

> > I am doing much better lately and am more optimistic. I am

> > enjoying learning more about ACT and am surprised the many ways

it

> > fits with different practices, philosophies and processes for

> mental

> > health. I am hopeful that we can all find peace with our past and

> > courage in living life given the choices we will make.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Exactly, Kavy. But I would take the point even further.

It's impossible for you to really deserve praise or blame for any

choice that you make in your life. On a psychological level, you

choose what you choose because of the way you are, because of the

complex set of desires, motivations, dispositions, sensitivities,

goals, personality traits, values, experiences, beliefs and so on

that constitute your mental life. On a physical level, you choose

what you choose because of the way that the neurochemical events in

your brain unfold. You don't create or dictate the physical laws

that govern those events, nor do you create or dictate the desires,

motivations, dispositions, personality traits, sensitivities,

histories, and so on that guide you in your choices. It doesn't make

sense for you to claim credit or blame yourself for their

consequences. You are not an independent, self-creating entity that

can be responsible in that way.

The reason that we are so inclined to conceptualize reality in terms

of praise and blame is because evolution has built them into our

psychologies. They fulfill adaptive functions in our species. If we

didn't think in terms of praise and blame, if we didn't see people as

good and bad, worthy and unworthy, guilty and innocent, and so on,

then we wouldn't reward and punish them for what they do, and society

would be chaos.

When we think someone's really at fault for some bad action, how do

we respond? We scorn them, we judge them, we punish them. In doing

those things, we motivate them to change their behaviors. We deter

future transgressors. The consequence is a civilized society.

That's all fine and good. Praise and blame can be useful.

But what about when they aren't useful? What about when they keep us

stuck in the past, lamenting over our own shortcomings and mistakes?

What about when they cause us to shit on ourselves for not being good

enough at this or that? Unfortunately, we still buy into them. It's

our nature. They feel real to us.

But when we conceptualize ourselves accurately--not as independent

self-creating entities, but as dependent parts of a larger whole--

they lose their grip on us. We gain flexibility in the way we relate

with them.

Things stop sticking to us, because we no longer identify or attach

to what has happened or is happening in our lives. We no longer

internalize it, or map it onto our self image, as if it were some

kind of reflection on us.

The consequence is peace.

The useless blame and anger and tribalism and pettiness and pressure

and anxiety and insecurity so on that we experience in the context of

our 'self' evaluations become just more quirks of mind that we can

let go of.

So, I would tell myself the opposite of what Bill told you. I am not

a good person. I am not a bad person. I am not a worthy person. I

am not an unworthy person. I'm just a part of the chain of cause and

effect that makes up the universe. In the end, I own absolutely

nothing in this life, and nothing more needs to be said.

> > >

> > > It doesn't seem to me to be a question of if we have free

will

> or

> > > not that is important. It is about choices we make and as long

as

> > we

> > > are living life there will be a choice to make that's for sure.

> In

> > my

> > > life I have been making it a point to have more confidence in

my

> > > decisions and some have been very difficult lately. I try to be

> > > willing to have the uncertainty about the outcome instead of

> > getting

> > > anxious about it. There is no point for me personally to wonder

> > about

> > > fate or my own volition. That just seems to add another aspect

of

> > > anxiety for me.

> > >

> > > There seems to be an aspect of guilt that a lot of people

get

> > > caught up in about choices. For me I can get entangled with

this

> > and

> > > it has been very helpful to not judge my self (thanks Happiness

> > Trap

> > > chapter 22 and 23) It can be a mindless negative feedback loop.

> It

> > > never seems a good idea for me to ask why. More important is

what

> > can

> > > I do, where can I get help, when is the best time to deal with

> > this,

> > > and how might be the best way. None of these possibilities come

> to

> > > mind when I am so caught up in feeling bad about myself and the

> > > thoughts I am having. There are probably an infinite number of

> > > reasons `why' so I don't even want to go there. Then I am left

> with

> > a

> > > better choice once I realize I am obsessing. What I need to

> > remember

> > > to ask is how can I make choices that support my values.

> > >

> > > Everyone has their own sense of their lives, what they

> struggle

> > > with and what has meaning for them. It seems we are better off

to

> > > think that we can all accept the mystery and believe in our

> > > possibilities then trust ourselves. For me here I am> I know

the

> > > value of nothing> I want to live a fulfilling life so I show

up>I

> > let

> > > go>I get moving. It's all easier said than done. Each of us can

> get

> > > hung up anywhere along the way. Please be kind to your selves

and

> > > each other in what were about at this moment.

> > >

> > > I am doing much better lately and am more optimistic. I am

> > > enjoying learning more about ACT and am surprised the many ways

> it

> > > fits with different practices, philosophies and processes for

> > mental

> > > health. I am hopeful that we can all find peace with our past

and

> > > courage in living life given the choices we will make.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I thought this was a brilliant post up to here and agreed with it

totally. I won't say you were a good person for writing it though<VBG>

More below...

> You are just a

> set of contingencies unfolding in nature. Who cares if they happen

> to be a certain way?

>

> In CBT, when someone feels that they are a 'bad' person, the

> therapist says,

>

> " No, you're not a bad person! You're a good person! Here are some

> reasons why. You're a good mother to your child, you're nice to

> other people, you're a member of your local charity, bla bla bla

bla

> bla. "

Not my experience of CBT for OCD and depression about being a fraud

and a bad person!

>

> But see, this approach gets inside the language of 'praise'

> and 'blame', as if it were possible for a person to really deserve

to

> be praised for the fact that they happen to have a compassionate

> personality, or a strong love for a child, or an inclination to

join

> a local charity.

>

> We don't want play that game. It's dangerous. We wan't to get

> outside of the language of 'praise' and 'blame' altogether. We

want

> to see ourselves for what we actually are--parts of a larger whole,

> not self-creating selves. When we see ourselves in that way, it

> becomes much easier to accept ourselves and our situations going

> forward. We can see our pride, arrogance, guilt, shame, and so on

as

> just temporary feelings that our minds create, rather than as true

> statements about how we should be judged in this life.

My CBT dealt a lot with my anxiety about being judged but it also

looked at the whole idea of feeling judged from a metacognitive

angle. I think it accepted my nature as a thinking person (also part

of human nature) and used my ability to look at human nature

objectively to see things in perspective including my OCD.

The only problem I see with the last part of what you write is that

though we as humans are clearly evolved beings subject to the laws of

natural selection and clearly not totally in control of our actions

and the fact that we are parts of a larger whole we do seem to

actually need to have some sense of our individual identities to be

able to function with a sense of purpose. We are *unfortunately*

beings that have a sense of consciousness of our own mortality and

where we are going that can be worrying or enlightening depending on

our beliefs and it is easier said than done just to say we are mere

products of evolution.

In a way saying there is no such thing as free will (so no need to

judge ourselves) is the same as saying we have no choices. In a way

it's very different though. Lack of free will is an ultimate reason

for why we behave the way we do as humans. Not seeing we also have

choices would be a proximate one.

We will always have the tendency as humans to judge ourselves for

making the wrong choices in the here and now. That's not buying into

unhelpful language it's using language (as in CBT) to get more

objectivity. Just as you used language in your e-mail I'd say.

I don't really see that this is about language being problematic but

more about how you use language and whether you are able to use

thinking helpfully by using our human ability to stand back and look

at ourselves and our problems from a distance. I don't think any

other beings can do that. You can do it either judgementally or non-

judgementally can't you?>

> For those who want to read more, I HIGHLY recommend the following

> article:

>

> http://www.naturalism.org/strawson.htm

I will! Thanks,

Louise