Subjective vs. Objective Benefits of Mindfulness

[Guest guest]

Hi guys! First post here.

Am currently working my way through GOYM(...) and finding the ACT

attitudes pretty damn vitalising and pragmatic - Massive thanks to

, Russ and co for putting this ACT thing

together - I'm getting a tonne of value out of it.

I've had a couple of thoughts about practicing the habits of

mindfulness and meditation that I'd like to bounce off you (and

defuse from somewhat in the process).

So with regard to mindfulness and meditation practice;

Subjectively: I just do it because it's a habit I value.

Practicing mindfulness moves me in a valued direction - training my

awareness of pain and willingness to have it, training the habit of

feeling my feelings and taking valued action, etc. I value these

abilities so I do mindfulness practice.

Objectively: It DOES get rid of XYZ problem. The long term habit of

mindfulness/meditation does reduce anxiety, depression, and occurance

of difficult thoughts and feeling.s. It changes you biologically -

hormone levels adjust positively, it dampens activity in the frontal

lobes (or whatever the

actual neuroscientific results are - the point is it does CHANGE you

in the long term).

Dilemma: My mind likes to take this objective truth and turn it into

the REASON for practicing mindfulness - PARTICULARLY

meditation.

I notice myself having painful experiences, and avoiding them

by " looking to the future " and making rationalisations like " well the

more time I put into meditation, the less I will have these thoughts

and feelings " and as a result, feeling temporarily better. Of course

this itself is pain avoidance.

Who would have thought humans could create such convoluted problems

for themselves

Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on this? My intuition tells me

it's just MORE content to be mindful of, and keep up the practice

because I know it's worth doing.

But it does seem like I've " latched on " to meditation as

a " solution " , and I'm finding that hard to let go of without

rejecting meditation entirely. Which would be silly, because it IS

good mindfulness practice. Hmm!

[Guest guest]

Sure, Rich. A human can lock onto anything as a "solution." But, letting go of meditation won't help--just avoiding avoiding......loops and loops. Just as you said, more content to notice. Breath in. Breath out. Returning to the moment. Mind objects, mind says "this is a avoidance." Mind says "bad boy, don't do that." Mind says "I can help with that." Mind says..... And, notice while all that is happening, the moment slips away, breath slips away. Noticing, we make the return.....breathing in. Breathing out.peacekelly G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax: (do not use either of these during summer)(do not leave messages on office phone)ph: (best phone number, also best for messages)fax: homepage: http://www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm Hi guys! First post here.Am currently working my way through GOYM(...) and finding the ACT attitudes pretty damn vitalising and pragmatic - Massive thanks to , Russ and co for putting this ACT thing together - I'm getting a tonne of value out of it.I've had a couple of thoughts about practicing the habits of mindfulness and meditation that I'd like to bounce off you (and defuse from somewhat in the process).So with regard to mindfulness and meditation practice;Subjectively: I just do it because it's a habit I value. Practicing mindfulness moves me in a valued direction - training my awareness of pain and willingness to have it, training the habit of feeling my feelings and taking valued action, etc. I value these abilities so I do mindfulness practice.Objectively: It DOES get rid of XYZ problem. The long term habit of mindfulness/meditation does reduce anxiety, depression, and occurance of difficult thoughts and feeling.s. It changes you biologically - hormone levels adjust positively, it dampens activity in the frontal lobes (or whatever the actual neuroscientific results are - the point is it does CHANGE you in the long term).Dilemma: My mind likes to take this objective truth and turn it into the REASON for practicing mindfulness - PARTICULARLYmeditation. I notice myself having painful experiences, and avoiding them by "looking to the future" and making rationalisations like "well the more time I put into meditation, the less I will have these thoughts and feelings" and as a result, feeling temporarily better. Of course this itself is pain avoidance. Who would have thought humans could create such convoluted problems for themselves :)Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on this? My intuition tells me it's just MORE content to be mindful of, and keep up the practice because I know it's worth doing. But it does seem like I've "latched on" to meditation as a "solution", and I'm finding that hard to let go of without rejecting meditation entirely. Which would be silly, because it IS good mindfulness practice. Hmm!

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that grounding response . Makes good sense.

Cheers

Rich

>

> Sure, Rich. A human can lock onto anything as a " solution. " But,

> letting go of meditation won't help--just avoiding

avoiding......loops

> and loops. Just as you said, more content to notice. Breath in.

Breath

> out. Returning to the moment. Mind objects, mind says " this is a

> avoidance. " Mind says " bad boy, don't do that. " Mind says " I can

help

> with that. " Mind says..... And, notice while all that is

happening,

> the moment slips away, breath slips away. Noticing, we make the

> return.....breathing in. Breathing out.

>

> peace

> kelly

>

> G.

> 205 Peabody Building

> Psychology Department

> University of Mississippi

> Oxford, MS 38677

>

> ph:

> fax:

> (do not use either of these during summer)

> (do not leave messages on office phone)

> ph: (best phone number, also best for messages)

> fax:

> homepage: http://www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Richkp101,Your intuition sounds about right to me. Whatever the mind does in meditation, it's all grist for the mill of awareness. Just keep showing up to watch the show.How wonderful to be able to climb out of the raging river of thought, stand on the bank, and watch the thoughts go by!!

May we continually recognize our mental experiences to be mental experiences.

Hi guys! First post here.

Am currently working my way through GOYM(...) and finding the ACT

attitudes pretty damn vitalising and pragmatic - Massive thanks to

, Russ and co for putting this ACT thing

together - I'm getting a tonne of value out of it.

I've had a couple of thoughts about practicing the habits of

mindfulness and meditation that I'd like to bounce off you (and

defuse from somewhat in the process).

So with regard to mindfulness and meditation practice;

Subjectively: I just do it because it's a habit I value.

Practicing mindfulness moves me in a valued direction - training my

awareness of pain and willingness to have it, training the habit of

feeling my feelings and taking valued action, etc. I value these

abilities so I do mindfulness practice.

Objectively: It DOES get rid of XYZ problem. The long term habit of

mindfulness/meditation does reduce anxiety, depression, and occurance

of difficult thoughts and feeling.s. It changes you biologically -

hormone levels adjust positively, it dampens activity in the frontal

lobes (or whatever the

actual neuroscientific results are - the point is it does CHANGE you

in the long term).

Dilemma: My mind likes to take this objective truth and turn it into

the REASON for practicing mindfulness - PARTICULARLY

meditation.

I notice myself having painful experiences, and avoiding them

by " looking to the future " and making rationalisations like " well the

more time I put into meditation, the less I will have these thoughts

and feelings " and as a result, feeling temporarily better. Of course

this itself is pain avoidance.

Who would have thought humans could create such convoluted problems

for themselves

Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on this? My intuition tells me

it's just MORE content to be mindful of, and keep up the practice

because I know it's worth doing.

But it does seem like I've " latched on " to meditation as

a " solution " , and I'm finding that hard to let go of without

rejecting meditation entirely. Which would be silly, because it IS

good mindfulness practice. Hmm!

[Guest guest]

>How wonderful to be able to climb out of the raging river of thought, stand on the bank, and watch the thoughts go by!!

, thank you for that excellent metaphor!Helena

Re: Subjective vs. Objective Benefits of Mindfulness

Richkp101,Your intuition sounds about right to me. Whatever the mind does in meditation, it's all grist for the mill of awareness. Just keep showing up to watch the show.How wonderful to be able to climb out of the raging river of thought, stand on the bank, and watch the thoughts go by!! May we continually recognize our mental experiences to be mental experiences.

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 6:38 PM, richkp101 <sexy_rich101hotmail> wrote:

Hi guys! First post here.Am currently working my way through GOYM(...) and finding the ACT attitudes pretty damn vitalising and pragmatic - Massive thanks to , Russ and co for putting this ACT thing together - I'm getting a tonne of value out of it.I've had a couple of thoughts about practicing the habits of mindfulness and meditation that I'd like to bounce off you (and defuse from somewhat in the process).So with regard to mindfulness and meditation practice;Subjectively: I just do it because it's a habit I value. Practicing mindfulness moves me in a valued direction - training my awareness of pain and willingness to have it, training the habit of feeling my feelings and taking valued action, etc. I value these abilities so I do mindfulness practice.Objectively: It DOES get rid of XYZ problem. The long term habit of mindfulness/meditation does reduce anxiety, depression, and occurance of difficult thoughts and feeling.s. It changes you biologically - hormone levels adjust positively, it dampens activity in the frontal lobes (or whatever the actual neuroscientific results are - the point is it does CHANGE you in the long term).Dilemma: My mind likes to take this objective truth and turn it into the REASON for practicing mindfulness - PARTICULARLYmeditation. I notice myself having painful experiences, and avoiding them by "looking to the future" and making rationalisations like "well the more time I put into meditation, the less I will have these thoughts and feelings" and as a result, feeling temporarily better. Of course this itself is pain avoidance. Who would have thought humans could create such convoluted problems for themselves :)Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on this? My intuition tells me it's just MORE content to be mindful of, and keep up the practice because I know it's worth doing. But it does seem like I've "latched on" to meditation as a "solution", and I'm finding that hard to let go of without rejecting meditation entirely. Which would be silly, because it IS good mindfulness practice. Hmm!