Re: Challenges with defusion - there's so MUCH going on!

[Guest guest]

" Part of it is that I've read so much self-help type stuff that I

have a strong habit of taking whatever I've read and using it to

COUNTER my

immediate experience. My mind likes to turn ACT into " doing the ACT

technique " . Hmmm. "

I understand this perfectly. Too much self-help stuff and years of

therapy have made me overly focused on what I think, how I think,

what I should do and not do....and so on.

I think practising ACT will help me to unclutter my head

>

> Hmm. I'm finding defusion tricky. I often find myself entangled

in

> multiple dimensions simultaneously.

>

> An example process might be something like this:

>

>

> 1)Find myself immersed in some future scenario (thought,

visualisation)

> 2)Counter that with a " positive thinking " thought (thought - words)

> 3)Notice this pattern, and immediately judge it implicitly (bodily

> feeling, distant words)

> 4)Negative feeling (bodily sensation)

> 5)Evaluation of mindfulness technique ( " I need to do XYZ to defuse

> properly " or " THAT's not how to be fully willing! " )

>

> This all seems to happen lightning-fast, almost simultaneously.

It's

> not so much that I'm avoiding it, more that it's overwhelming and

I'm

> BEING multiple things simultaneously, and I only have so much

> processing power to apply to mindfulness skills.

>

> When I meditate, the flow of thoughts/judgements/bodily sensations

> stretches out and slows down. and I can pick apart the different

> strands - it's more linear - it goes much more thought --> bodily

> sensation --> thought -->...etc and I'm much more able to just " let

> them come " .

>

> Part of it is that I've read so much self-help type stuff that I

have a

> strong habit of taking whatever I've read and using it to COUNTER

my

> immediate experience. My mind likes to turn ACT into " doing the

ACT

> technique " . Hmmm.

>

> Anyway... the process of writing that out has been useful. If

anyone

> has anything they'd like to throw in, that would be cool.

>

[Guest guest]

I think that if you stick to one, then it is just fine.

I start my program in just one hour. A comprehensive meditation and work program. I'm an art dealer. I want to thank you, my sangha (community of followers), for being so patient with my emotional outbursts. I love you all and I thank you.

Bill (Bill Stickers)

Van Nuys, California

Re: Challenges with defusion - there's so MUCH going on!

"Part of it is that I've read so much self-help type stuff that I

have a strong habit of taking whatever I've read and using it to

COUNTER my

immediate experience. My mind likes to turn ACT into "doing the ACT

technique". Hmmm."

I understand this perfectly. Too much self-help stuff and years of

therapy have made me overly focused on what I think, how I think,

what I should do and not do....and so on.

I think practising ACT will help me to unclutter my head

>

> Hmm. I'm finding defusion tricky. I often find myself entangled

in

> multiple dimensions simultaneously.

>

> An example process might be something like this:

>

>

> 1)Find myself immersed in some future scenario (thought,

visualisation)

> 2)Counter that with a "positive thinking" thought (thought - words)

> 3)Notice this pattern, and immediately judge it implicitly (bodily

> feeling, distant words)

> 4)Negative feeling (bodily sensation)

> 5)Evaluation of mindfulness technique ("I need to do XYZ to defuse

> properly" or "THAT's not how to be fully willing!")

>

> This all seems to happen lightning-fast, almost simultaneously.

It's

> not so much that I'm avoiding it, more that it's overwhelming and

I'm

> BEING multiple things simultaneously, and I only have so much

> processing power to apply to mindfulness skills.

>

> When I meditate, the flow of thoughts/judgements/bodily sensations

> stretches out and slows down. and I can pick apart the different

> strands - it's more linear - it goes much more thought --> bodily

> sensation --> thought -->...etc and I'm much more able to just "let

> them come".

>

> Part of it is that I've read so much self-help type stuff that I

have a

> strong habit of taking whatever I've read and using it to COUNTER

my

> immediate experience. My mind likes to turn ACT into "doing the

ACT

> technique". Hmmm.

>

> Anyway... the process of writing that out has been useful. If

anyone

> has anything they'd like to throw in, that would be cool.

>

Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

[Guest guest]

I completely empathise!! I'm one in the 'done too much self-help'

category too. For at least the last few years I've always been trying

and manipulate and alter my thought flow.

From my experience of ACT so far, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in

using defusion techniques. They are useful, but they can so easily be

taken on as a 'method to alter experience/thoughts/feelings'. That's

what I found. So, I've let go of them a little bit now and mainly use

the 'Rumis guest house' metaphor. Basically I give room in my

awareness for all the struggles, including the urge to manipulate and

change my thoughts, and the feelings, the feeling of struggle, the

comparing, the 'has this worked?' thoughts, etc. It's easier if you

do it at home by yourself, just let your mind flow and get a piece of

paper and write down all the minds content on it. Then allow each one

to be inside of you, and contain it all with awareness. Then

throughout the day you can simply recognise when certain

content/feelings show up and use a simple acknowledgement of it.

ie " There goes my mind again " ... " There goes my mind wanting to

struggle again " etc.

I'm still working on this. I got a book recently called " The Mindful

way through depression " (there's a CD with it by Jon Kabat Zinn) and

it is extremely useful in helping me to understand these concepts

better. It's written in a way that makes more sense than " Get out of

your mind... " so I'd really reccomend it. It explains how our brains

have an 'avoidance system' and an 'approach system', and we often use

the avoidance system to avoid our feelings etc, which leads to

aversion, which creates a vicious cycle in the body-mind

relationship. When we approach our feelings and thoughts as 'guests'

(the guest house metaphor) we are using the brains 'approach' system

which leads to more positive outcomes.

I wish you well as I can totally understand where you're coming from.

If you'd like to talk more about this I'd be more than happy to.

--PC

-- In ACT_for_the_Public , " richkp101 "

wrote:

>

> Hmm. I'm finding defusion tricky. I often find myself entangled

in

> multiple dimensions simultaneously.

>

> An example process might be something like this:

>

>

> 1)Find myself immersed in some future scenario (thought,

visualisation)

> 2)Counter that with a " positive thinking " thought (thought - words)

> 3)Notice this pattern, and immediately judge it implicitly (bodily

> feeling, distant words)

> 4)Negative feeling (bodily sensation)

> 5)Evaluation of mindfulness technique ( " I need to do XYZ to defuse

> properly " or " THAT's not how to be fully willing! " )

>

> This all seems to happen lightning-fast, almost simultaneously.

It's

> not so much that I'm avoiding it, more that it's overwhelming and

I'm

> BEING multiple things simultaneously, and I only have so much

> processing power to apply to mindfulness skills.

>

> When I meditate, the flow of thoughts/judgements/bodily sensations

> stretches out and slows down. and I can pick apart the different

> strands - it's more linear - it goes much more thought --> bodily

> sensation --> thought -->...etc and I'm much more able to just " let

> them come " .

>

> Part of it is that I've read so much self-help type stuff that I

have a

> strong habit of taking whatever I've read and using it to COUNTER

my

> immediate experience. My mind likes to turn ACT into " doing the

ACT

> technique " . Hmmm.

>

> Anyway... the process of writing that out has been useful. If

anyone

> has anything they'd like to throw in, that would be cool.

>

[Guest guest]

I just say that what you wrote shows some space and perspective

IMHO.

The thing with mindfulness and defusion is to notice when you’re

getting caught and pulled out of your life because you’re getting caught,

and then notice that and let it be.

Just noticing the pattern -- the old re-runs -- playing

out is something. Perhaps that is the place to start. No need to put

defusion up as a counter attack to your mind, body, and history. There is

no right defusion technique.

Let your experience flow by noticing what is happening, with a

bit of curiosity and gentleness. You can decide whether you want to

spend time in it, or perhaps allow it to unfold as you move on to do something

else that you care about.

Peace -j

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

Director of Clinical Training

Director, Mindfulness & Acceptance Research Program /

Anxiety Disorders Research Program

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology

Social Science 369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

email: forsyth@...

Web

[Guest guest]

Thankyou very much everyone. This in particular, from , resonated

with me:

> Let your experience flow by noticing what is happening, with a bit of

> curiosity and gentleness. You can decide whether you want to spend

> time in it, or perhaps allow it to unfold as you move on to do

something

> else that you care about.

I like that... thankyou.

[Guest guest]

I like that, too, and I will be sharing it with others -- with 's OK, of course -- as we move in and through the holiday season.

Laurel

Subject: Re: Challenges with defusion - there's so MUCH going on!To: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 7:11 PM

Thankyou very much everyone. This in particular, from , resonated with me:> Let your experience flow by noticing what is happening, with a bit of> curiosity and gentleness. You can decide whether you want to spend> time in it, or perhaps allow it to unfold as you move on to do something> else that you care about.I like that... thankyou.

[Guest guest]

Share, share, share.

Peace -j

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

Director of Clinical Training

Director, Mindfulness & Acceptance Research Program /

Anxiety Disorders Research Program

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology

Social Science 369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

email: forsyth@...

Web