Re: money matters

[Guest guest]

Actually, I think you need to look at it from another angle: Is she

a terrible parent because she expects to be able to dump her

finances in your lap -- indeed for you to save HER?

That's not a parent, violette.

You have a right to live your life and go into your future without

her attaching herself to your leg. You have the right to not have

anxiety over someone else's self-induced problems and lifestyle.

You aren't here to hold up her world, thereby sacrificing yours.

If you were to give her money -- you already have a figure in your

head of how much you could give her -- you would actually be HURTING

her. It's like paying off a blackmailer -- they always come back

for more. You've undoubtedly seen her do that with others in your

lifetime.

Any parent who threatens suicide to get their daughter to do

ANYTHING is not being " generous " . She may have been " generous " with

giving you things in your childhood -- but it was probably paid for

with a big string attached: payback. And that's not generosity.

It's more like grooming your future victim.

But by threatening suicide (which makes you think you're responsible

for her very life!), she wasn't being generous at all.

You're not an appendage of hers. You're a separate, functioning

human being with rights to live her own life. Your mother knows how

the world works -- if you keep " saving " her, you're actually

crippling her.

Nothing motivates someone more than knowing their safety net is

gone. You're her safety net, and that's not right. (Just like if I

let my kids know that I'd pay all their bills and save them from all

their financial mistakes -- how hard would they be motivated to be

responsible with money? They wouldn't!!!)

Money is just another boundary issue. Your mother crosses it too

much.

Talk to your therapist and talk about why you're paying her bills,

your anxiety and all the other troubles you've accepted from your

mother. At some point you have to draw the line, and creating

healthy boundaries is not the mark of a " terrible daughter " . It's

the mark of someone protecting their life from a user who would

devour them if allowed.

Start saying " No " . You're not your mother's keeper. And the

meter's running on your life too. Don't waste precious time holding

your mother's life up, too. Make her do it.

>

> I know a few people have posted about money regarding

nada " themes. "

> It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with my nada

to

> the point where I have constant anxiety over it. My nada is like

an

> alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of thousands

of

> dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows against

> her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees. She also left

the

> country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her

accounts,

> which causes me so much stress because I just see the money flying

> out the window. I know that she should really be paying her own

> bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew up at me

> and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not stressed

out

> about her bills but rather my personal relationships and this has

> nothing to do with her. Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes

NO

> sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come to me

and

> ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am ok with

> giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back. I'm 27, I live

> in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable income

> because it is SO expensive here and I totally support myself -

rent,

> school, food, everything. But I can only support myself.

>

> She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare and I

> think she expects me to rescue her. When I was 15, she threatened

to

> kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state. I'm

waiting

> for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat that if I

> don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill herself

> and blame me. I have been working on this in therapy, but I have

SO

> much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't sleep

well,

> and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios about what

> will happen. The question I really want to ask though I don't

think

> anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human being/daughter

> if I don't help her out " ? What is the line between helping a

parent

> and destroying yourself? There is obviously more to this issue

that

> I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it. Anyone out

> there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice on how

to

> deal?

>

> As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with me. A

lot

> of other people have talked about this, these conditional gifts.

And

> even though there are strings attached, it's hard to separate

> yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they show

> their affection.

>

[Guest guest]

Violette,

I gave and gave and gave over $74k to my nada. The reason I did so

(and I can only see it now) is i was trying to buy her love and

acceptance. Her suicide threats and all of that were just BS. In

fact, by giving her that money, I enabled her to get worse and I

wasted my college money. That's how desperate i was to be loved by

her. But you can't buy love or acceptance. And, in the end, it is

never enough, nor never appreciated. I am still working through the

anger at myself for wasting so much money on her. I started out

with " OK, I'll do just this much... " and blew my college money. I

am worth loving without having to pay for it. So are you.

Take good care,

Greg.

>

> I know a few people have posted about money regarding

nada " themes. "

> It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with my nada

to

> the point where I have constant anxiety over it. My nada is like

an

> alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of thousands

of

> dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows against

> her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees. She also left

the

> country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her

accounts,

> which causes me so much stress because I just see the money flying

> out the window. I know that she should really be paying her own

> bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew up at me

> and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not stressed

out

> about her bills but rather my personal relationships and this has

> nothing to do with her. Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes

NO

> sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come to me

and

> ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am ok with

> giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back. I'm 27, I live

> in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable income

> because it is SO expensive here and I totally support myself -

rent,

> school, food, everything. But I can only support myself.

>

> She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare and I

> think she expects me to rescue her. When I was 15, she threatened

to

> kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state. I'm

waiting

> for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat that if I

> don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill herself

> and blame me. I have been working on this in therapy, but I have

SO

> much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't sleep

well,

> and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios about what

> will happen. The question I really want to ask though I don't

think

> anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human being/daughter

> if I don't help her out " ? What is the line between helping a

parent

> and destroying yourself? There is obviously more to this issue

that

> I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it. Anyone out

> there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice on how

to

> deal?

>

> As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with me. A

lot

> of other people have talked about this, these conditional gifts.

And

> even though there are strings attached, it's hard to separate

> yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they show

> their affection.

>

[Guest guest]

Violette,

I posted below your posts.

>

> I know a few people have posted about money regarding

nada " themes. "

> It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with my nada

to

> the point where I have constant anxiety over it.

*** I was glad to read you are in therapy. Anxiety disorders are one

that definitely plagues KOs. I have had it in the past but not

lately, not in a good while. Therapy helps and so does the validation

I've gotten here.

My nada is like an

> alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of thousands

of

> dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows against

> her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees.

***If she has no intention of paying it back and is acting like a

shopping addict, then it is criminal. It is called fraud. It is

illegal though she is twisting the rules to make it appear legal for

her. Borderlines are always exempt from the rules. They are special.

She also left the

> country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her accounts,

> which causes me so much stress because I just see the money flying

> out the window.

***The fact that you said yes to this also says that while she's a

shopping addict, you have addiction issues also. You are addicted to

pleasing and the notion that you genuinely have a mother when she's

mentally ill and never knew how to be a mother and that she can never

give what you needed in childhood but that now as an adult you can

learn to give it to yourself. I know. I'm in recovery from the notion

that I have a mother who is normal and healthy and won't hurt me and

will look out for my best interest the way a mother should and every

time I've gone down that path, like all addicts, I get hurt by the

disillusionment of chasing after something that is external. My true

mother is within. My biological borderline mother has nothing I need

now days. She is sick and when I'm around her, I get sick too b/c I

was raised in that sickness the same as alcoholic families. Some

people can't drink. I can't go around my FOO and especially my bp

mother. I'm an addict to the concept of rose tinted glasses when the

world starts falling all around me and I don't want to see the truth.

I know that she should really be paying her own

> bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew up at me

> and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not stressed out

> about her bills but rather my personal relationships and this has

> nothing to do with her.

***How does this logic differ from a drug addict who blames you for

them smoking crack? Substitute here and see if you would internalize

and react the same. Perhaps you'd feel the same as I know my brother

hurt me several times when he was a drug addict. Said mean and cruel

things he can't ever take back and yet I also know it was the drugs

talking. With a borderline its the mental illness talking- the rage

and they need help professionally- they don't need children or

spouses rescuing them. They need professionals and yet the addict has

the freedom to chose recovery or not. Most of the bps I've read about

here prefer their illness/drug of rage over any relationship in their

lives.

Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes NO

> sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come to me and

> ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am ok with

> giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back.

****So if she were addicted to cocaine, is there a certain gram

weight you are cool with giving her? Same concept by giving a

shopping addict money. Or lets say she's like some other bps and a

sex addict. Are you okay with getting her a few boyfriends as a

couple is not bad, but 10 guys is out of the question. Your initial

analogy of being an alcoholic was right on. If she's a gambling

addict, which she is just too high falutin to play the roulette

wheel, do you give her more money?

I'm 27, I live

> in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable income

> because it is SO expensive here and I totally support myself -

rent,

> school, food, everything.

**That makes you normal.

But I can only support myself.

***That's all you are expected in the real world to support unless

you get married and have kids. Then that's a different scenario. You

are not expected to support your out of control spending mother

though except by her standards and do you really want to live by a

crazy person's standards?

>

> She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare and I

> think she expects me to rescue her.

***But you have nothing to rescue her with unless in the way of

pointing her to a mental facility. That would be truly rescuing her.

As it is now, you'd just be throwing money at the problem and that

won't help her in the long run.

When I was 15, she threatened to

> kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state. I'm

waiting

> for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat that if I

> don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill herself

> and blame me.

***This is where I am on expert ground to speak candidly and quite

honestly. My mother has never threatened suicide. Never once.

Instead, she drove me to try it in high school w/my insane hormal

teenage angst mixed w/her rage and her ability to project onto me all

her life's problems. I own my immaturity, rashness and stupidity. I

internalized it and turned on myself. My brother did the same thing a

few years later. This past Christmas, I told my nada- 'no more gifts.

You can not send me or my family anymore gifts. It is not what we

want and its not we what need. You can spend your money on therapy,

but not on us. We need you sane and that's a bigger gift you could

give....one that is wanted instead of all these other things.' Of

course that was just a small part of the overall conversation where I

was determining I needed to go NC w/her as she's certifiably insane

and it was one of the first times I was not baited into her games and

I kept my cool and ability to be logical in the face of her 15 lies,

some of which I called her on, as well as her histrionics. The short

of it was that she sent my oldest son, the one that looks just like

my brother and her favorite child, 5 gifts, my youngest son 1 gift

and my husband two gifts and me none. I'm not stupid though. I opened

the box three days before Christmas so she wouldn't ruin our

holidays. But then fastforward three months later and her live in

fiance and boyfriend of 5 years kills himself. I'm sure its all my

fault b/c of going NC in December and 'making' my mother depressed so

much that she turned all her rage on him. Oh yes. I own that.

Bull$hit. I don't. I went home for the memorial service. The funeral

did not fit in our schedule and I didn't go. Nada begged for my

forgiveness and said 'oh and I forgive you too.' I didn't even ask.

I'm older and wiser now and I dind't even ask. I don't care in her

twisted logic what she thinks I need forgiveness for and second off,

I didn't ask for it. She just said it to save face since she asked

for mine... which means here apology wasn't sincere. Additionally she

cried in hysterics 'if anything his death has taught me is that life

is too short and we need to make up and put the past behind us.' I

don't think so. My reply: " If anything this has taught me its just

the opposite. The decisions I came to in December were the right

decisions for me and my family. You don't need a daughter, you need a

therapist and when you decide to go down that road, I'll be there to

try and work on a relationship. " She quickly responded that I needed

to be in therapy too and as rationally and calmly as I could say to

an insane person I replied " Yes, I know. I am in therapy and have

been for 6 months. " But I was worried about her killing herself the

night I found out about her fiance's death and so I called my

psychiatrist sister in law who assured me that most borderlines in

these situations don't kill themselves and the one's who threaten it

may attempt it but not carry through in it as it is typically

depressed people who carry it out- like nada's fiance- not a bp but

surely depressed living w/her.

A month later one of my good friends of 10 years killed herself. She

threw out a lot of warniing signs and had been on disability for a

year or so, but I didn't think she would actually kill herself. My

therapist and I talked about it and I told her about the warning

signs and she said 'well next time you will know to pick up the phone

and check in when you get those signs.' And w/o missing a beat I

said 'no. I won't do that. I have a life. I have two in diapers

(which are sleeping right now which is why I'm permitted to write

this much). I have obligations that supercede a need to rescue

someone. It was Chris's job to find a good therapist. I told her to

keep at it. I told her and she decided to kill herself instead and

that was her choice. I can't change someone's mind when they are set

on something like that. I can't be accountable either and while the

writing was on the wall, I don't feel responsible for rescuing her

nor my mother nor any other selfish ahole that happens to be in my

life w/mental illness issues. They need professionals, not me.' My

therapist was extremely impressed and said I was absolutely right.

But don't get me wrong. I've got a lot of anger issues I'm working

out myself from these suicides and then yesterday another friend

dieing (wish it were last year- the year of weddings vs the year of

deathes, but oh well. I know this too shall pass).

But it is quite arrogant to believe we can control someone else's

choice to kill - either themselves or another. The ONLY thing I

control is me and I have a hard enough time doing that most days. I

have learned I can not be responsible for their messed up lives and

the best I can do is learn to love me and know that there are others

in my life who do indeed need me to love me- namely my dh and kids.

But even before then I have been moving away from nada and expending

less and less energy on rescuing her b/c I know in the end, others

need my help much more and I in turn have needed theirs- mainly here

at this board and in my marriage.

Your nada's threats are a form of brainwashing. You can't control her

and if you are like me, most days its hard enough to control my own

emotions and actions. Gets easier managing my life the more I do it.

But I can't rescue these people. They're old enough to know better.

My kids aren't. I don't have a Christ complex and am not being

crucified any longer on the alters of their rage. Life is much more

than the borderline's version of reality. Real love is out there and

I'm getting my share and giving it too to people who genuinely

appreciate it. You have people who also need you though you may not

know it yet nor have you met them yet perhaps. You are worth

investing in you.

I have been working on this in therapy, but I have SO

> much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't sleep

well,

> and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios about what

> will happen.

***What matters is what you do. We all have fears and worries and

anxieties. Bravery is not the loss of fear. It is having great fear

but a greater amount of faith. As one whose been in your shoes and

felt myself shaking and crying and feeling paranoid and isolated, I

felt those feelings and just let me feel and heal and worked through

them. You and I didn't get to this place overnight. It took a

lifetime of their brainwashing to get as messed up inside as we've

been. It doesn't get better overnight either. I babystepped my way

through the emotions and just got honest w/myself and a lot of

distance from the FOO. Moving 1000 miles away helped. I could not get

better being around them. It is like so many people who get sicker

the longer they stay in a hospital. I'm really glad you're in therapy

to help you along and get these emotions on the table and these

twisted thought processes that a borderline mother projects onto her

children and we take them as real. I do feel badly for you. Believe

me I do. It is soooo hard cutting away from them and getting healthy

for you.

The question I really want to ask though I don't think

> anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human being/daughter

> if I don't help her out " ?

*** Only you can answer this, but honestly I don't think so. I think

you've had a horrible mother and so naturally you're going to feel

like a horrible daughter regardless of what you do. Maybe you help

her now, but in 6 months you'll feel horrible again as a daughter.

Its a sick dance of addiction- hers w/her mental illness and the KO

w/the notion we actually have a mother. That has been the hardest and

longest part of separating for me- grieving the loss of the notion

that I ever had a mother. It hurts- sometimes worse than a real

death. But I had to burry that notion in order to find out how to be

a real mother to my own kids.

What is the line between helping a parent

> and destroying yourself?

***As parent I can say there is no way a true parent who loves a

child the way love is suppose to work in that kind of relationship

would ever make that child draw that line in the sand- what's the

line? There isn't one. There need not be one when a true parent is

involved. You don't destroy yourself. True parents never ask that

sacrifice of their kids. Instead, I as a parent would die before ever

asking my kid to sacrifice their life for mine. That is why we have

kids- faith in the future...knowing humanity will keep moving forward

despite all its flaws. A parent who asks their child to sacrifice

themselves for the parent believes time moves backwards b/c they

themselves are stuck in their past. It doesn't. As a mother, I tell

you, you don't need to draw that line. You never think it is an

option to destroy yourself when you have a real parent. Better

question is when does the pain get so strong that you realize you

don't really have a parent? That is a question we all must ask

ourselves as KOs at one point or another. And it is a harsh reality

to wake up to and yet diagnosing the problem is more than half way to

the solution.

There is obviously more to this issue that

> I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it. Anyone out

> there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice on how

to

> deal?

***I suggest reading Understanding the Borderline Mother first and

foremost to get a deeper glimpse from an outsiders view of what you

are dealing with right now. We're here of course, but that book

really opened my eyes up to some truths I didn't see before and

offered some pathes of healing the same as this board has done. I

also like Dave Ramsey's show on dealing w/money and money matters.

We're debt free but the house as of last Friday and he has had

several callers call in w/bp parents though they weren't named as

such. Yet he's also addressed the issue a couple of times about

dealing w/a borderline parent and money issues.

>

> As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with me.

***I think your definition of generous and mine do not add up. I

don't think giving my children money and gifts throughout a lifetime

while they wonder where to draw the line between destroying

themselves and helping me is a definition of a generous parent.

Plenty of people don't have money and are a gazillion times more

generous than a borderline Queen mother who throws gifts on the table

every time you turn around only to bite you once you've accepted

those gifts. Hence I don't accept them anymore. She did, of course,

send a check for my son's b-day a month after fiance killed himself.

I ripped it up and put it in the trash. That's not generous in my

book. That's selfish. She manipulates w/material things to get her

emotional way about her. No thanks. True giving entails giving what

the receiver needs and truly wants. I want a mother. She refuses to

give me that. All the rest is BS in my book and I don't dance around

that fire anymore. I'm content w/my material disposition as it gives

me clarity on the other things in life. But when I ask for a spoon,

don't hand me a fork and say 'well you should be grateful I gave you

a fork at all!' Twisted logic of a borderline mother to hand their

kids gifts all the time but with hold love and proper emotional well

being.

A lot

> of other people have talked about this, these conditional gifts.

***Yes, it is VERY common thread around here- pun intended

And

> even though there are strings attached, it's hard to separate

> yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they show

> their affection.

***At this point, you are assuming you know the mind of a borderline

and how they show affection. I am unsure if it is how they show

affection or not. I can't ever tell if it is strategic for the next

time she'll screw me over or if it is b/c she genuinely is expressing

her warped version of love. I can't say with certainty. I'm not a

borderline and so I don't know. and yes, it is hard not to feel

guilty b/c you've been brainwashed into believeing that when someone

hands you a fork when you asked for a spoon you should say 'thank

you.' That's not how healthy relationships work. Your guilt is

understandable though as you've been conditioned by a borderline and

if you havent' also read Stop Walking On Eggshells, its another must

have in the KO library with how to deal w/FOG- fear, obligation and

guilt. You're in the FOG zone right now and there is indeed a way out-

but not around the FOG, through it. Much like Fear- working through

it and not around it. I've had to be honest and work through these

things that for years I suppressed and was in denial about- hence

babysteps w/getting healthy- 'How to eat an elephant? One bite at a

time.'

Best wishes to you. Reading this was so hard on certain levels w/the

suicides I've been through this year and knowing how my nada

manipulates w/money too. It is very difficult learning how to take

care of one's self as a KO.

Must run, baby waking.

Kerrie

>

[Guest guest]

I think everyone else has given some great advice here.

We are all responsible for our own actions & reactions. We can't

control anyone elses, even if we know acting a certain way will make

someone else act a certain way, that does not mean we are the ones

pulling the strings.

If the gifts she has given you have only further driven her into

debt, and in turn make her all the closer to being financially

dependant on you, they weren't really gifts now were they? The

greatest gift a parent can give you is the strenght and capability

to stand on your own two feet as an adult, without placing burden on

your shoulders.

If she really cared about you, she'd take care of herself first. If

she has that much money now, she should be able to afford an

accountant, and if she doesn't, you should start charging a fee.

(I'd say if you have all her acct. info anyways, start giving

yourself a salary, but you don't want to make any legal trouble for

yourself.) Seriously though, I see it as: Good parents take care of

you until you are physically and mentally able to take care of

yourself, and you shouldn't have to start taking care of your

parents until they loose whatever physical & mental abilities that

got them thru life so far. BP parents just take care of you when

it's convenient for them.

Take your time, you are strong and on your own two feet, and it's

hard to decide what to do, but don't forget: you're never

responsible for anyone else's actions.

[Guest guest]

Kerrie -- I know I must speak for more than just myself when I say I

appreciate the time and attention you've given to your posts. I know

it takes time to carefully answer so many issues.

They're very insightful and I have found them extremely helpful to

my own situation.

Thank you,

Kyla.

> >

> > I know a few people have posted about money regarding

> nada " themes. "

> > It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with my

nada

> to

> > the point where I have constant anxiety over it.

> *** I was glad to read you are in therapy. Anxiety disorders are

one

> that definitely plagues KOs. I have had it in the past but not

> lately, not in a good while. Therapy helps and so does the

validation

> I've gotten here.

>

> My nada is like an

> > alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of

thousands

> of

> > dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows

against

> > her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees.

> ***If she has no intention of paying it back and is acting like a

> shopping addict, then it is criminal. It is called fraud. It is

> illegal though she is twisting the rules to make it appear legal

for

> her. Borderlines are always exempt from the rules. They are

special.

>

> She also left the

> > country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her

accounts,

> > which causes me so much stress because I just see the money

flying

> > out the window.

> ***The fact that you said yes to this also says that while she's a

> shopping addict, you have addiction issues also. You are addicted

to

> pleasing and the notion that you genuinely have a mother when

she's

> mentally ill and never knew how to be a mother and that she can

never

> give what you needed in childhood but that now as an adult you can

> learn to give it to yourself. I know. I'm in recovery from the

notion

> that I have a mother who is normal and healthy and won't hurt me

and

> will look out for my best interest the way a mother should and

every

> time I've gone down that path, like all addicts, I get hurt by the

> disillusionment of chasing after something that is external. My

true

> mother is within. My biological borderline mother has nothing I

need

> now days. She is sick and when I'm around her, I get sick too b/c

I

> was raised in that sickness the same as alcoholic families. Some

> people can't drink. I can't go around my FOO and especially my bp

> mother. I'm an addict to the concept of rose tinted glasses when

the

> world starts falling all around me and I don't want to see the

truth.

>

> I know that she should really be paying her own

> > bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew up at

me

> > and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not stressed

out

> > about her bills but rather my personal relationships and this

has

> > nothing to do with her.

> ***How does this logic differ from a drug addict who blames you

for

> them smoking crack? Substitute here and see if you would

internalize

> and react the same. Perhaps you'd feel the same as I know my

brother

> hurt me several times when he was a drug addict. Said mean and

cruel

> things he can't ever take back and yet I also know it was the

drugs

> talking. With a borderline its the mental illness talking- the

rage

> and they need help professionally- they don't need children or

> spouses rescuing them. They need professionals and yet the addict

has

> the freedom to chose recovery or not. Most of the bps I've read

about

> here prefer their illness/drug of rage over any relationship in

their

> lives.

>

>

> Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes NO

> > sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come to me

and

> > ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am ok

with

> > giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back.

> ****So if she were addicted to cocaine, is there a certain gram

> weight you are cool with giving her? Same concept by giving a

> shopping addict money. Or lets say she's like some other bps and a

> sex addict. Are you okay with getting her a few boyfriends as a

> couple is not bad, but 10 guys is out of the question. Your

initial

> analogy of being an alcoholic was right on. If she's a gambling

> addict, which she is just too high falutin to play the roulette

> wheel, do you give her more money?

>

> I'm 27, I live

> > in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable income

> > because it is SO expensive here and I totally support myself -

> rent,

> > school, food, everything.

> **That makes you normal.

>

>

> But I can only support myself.

> ***That's all you are expected in the real world to support unless

> you get married and have kids. Then that's a different scenario.

You

> are not expected to support your out of control spending mother

> though except by her standards and do you really want to live by a

> crazy person's standards?

>

> >

> > She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare and I

> > think she expects me to rescue her.

> ***But you have nothing to rescue her with unless in the way of

> pointing her to a mental facility. That would be truly rescuing

her.

> As it is now, you'd just be throwing money at the problem and that

> won't help her in the long run.

>

> When I was 15, she threatened to

> > kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state. I'm

> waiting

> > for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat that if I

> > don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill

herself

> > and blame me.

> ***This is where I am on expert ground to speak candidly and

quite

> honestly. My mother has never threatened suicide. Never once.

> Instead, she drove me to try it in high school w/my insane hormal

> teenage angst mixed w/her rage and her ability to project onto me

all

> her life's problems. I own my immaturity, rashness and stupidity.

I

> internalized it and turned on myself. My brother did the same

thing a

> few years later. This past Christmas, I told my nada- 'no more

gifts.

> You can not send me or my family anymore gifts. It is not what we

> want and its not we what need. You can spend your money on

therapy,

> but not on us. We need you sane and that's a bigger gift you could

> give....one that is wanted instead of all these other things.' Of

> course that was just a small part of the overall conversation

where I

> was determining I needed to go NC w/her as she's certifiably

insane

> and it was one of the first times I was not baited into her games

and

> I kept my cool and ability to be logical in the face of her 15

lies,

> some of which I called her on, as well as her histrionics. The

short

> of it was that she sent my oldest son, the one that looks just

like

> my brother and her favorite child, 5 gifts, my youngest son 1 gift

> and my husband two gifts and me none. I'm not stupid though. I

opened

> the box three days before Christmas so she wouldn't ruin our

> holidays. But then fastforward three months later and her live in

> fiance and boyfriend of 5 years kills himself. I'm sure its all my

> fault b/c of going NC in December and 'making' my mother depressed

so

> much that she turned all her rage on him. Oh yes. I own that.

> Bull$hit. I don't. I went home for the memorial service. The

funeral

> did not fit in our schedule and I didn't go. Nada begged for my

> forgiveness and said 'oh and I forgive you too.' I didn't even

ask.

> I'm older and wiser now and I dind't even ask. I don't care in her

> twisted logic what she thinks I need forgiveness for and second

off,

> I didn't ask for it. She just said it to save face since she asked

> for mine... which means here apology wasn't sincere. Additionally

she

> cried in hysterics 'if anything his death has taught me is that

life

> is too short and we need to make up and put the past behind us.' I

> don't think so. My reply: " If anything this has taught me its just

> the opposite. The decisions I came to in December were the right

> decisions for me and my family. You don't need a daughter, you

need a

> therapist and when you decide to go down that road, I'll be there

to

> try and work on a relationship. " She quickly responded that I

needed

> to be in therapy too and as rationally and calmly as I could say

to

> an insane person I replied " Yes, I know. I am in therapy and have

> been for 6 months. " But I was worried about her killing herself

the

> night I found out about her fiance's death and so I called my

> psychiatrist sister in law who assured me that most borderlines in

> these situations don't kill themselves and the one's who threaten

it

> may attempt it but not carry through in it as it is typically

> depressed people who carry it out- like nada's fiance- not a bp

but

> surely depressed living w/her.

>

> A month later one of my good friends of 10 years killed herself.

She

> threw out a lot of warniing signs and had been on disability for a

> year or so, but I didn't think she would actually kill herself. My

> therapist and I talked about it and I told her about the warning

> signs and she said 'well next time you will know to pick up the

phone

> and check in when you get those signs.' And w/o missing a beat I

> said 'no. I won't do that. I have a life. I have two in diapers

> (which are sleeping right now which is why I'm permitted to write

> this much). I have obligations that supercede a need to rescue

> someone. It was Chris's job to find a good therapist. I told her

to

> keep at it. I told her and she decided to kill herself instead and

> that was her choice. I can't change someone's mind when they are

set

> on something like that. I can't be accountable either and while

the

> writing was on the wall, I don't feel responsible for rescuing her

> nor my mother nor any other selfish ahole that happens to be in my

> life w/mental illness issues. They need professionals, not me.' My

> therapist was extremely impressed and said I was absolutely right.

> But don't get me wrong. I've got a lot of anger issues I'm working

> out myself from these suicides and then yesterday another friend

> dieing (wish it were last year- the year of weddings vs the year

of

> deathes, but oh well. I know this too shall pass).

>

> But it is quite arrogant to believe we can control someone else's

> choice to kill - either themselves or another. The ONLY thing I

> control is me and I have a hard enough time doing that most days.

I

> have learned I can not be responsible for their messed up lives

and

> the best I can do is learn to love me and know that there are

others

> in my life who do indeed need me to love me- namely my dh and

kids.

> But even before then I have been moving away from nada and

expending

> less and less energy on rescuing her b/c I know in the end, others

> need my help much more and I in turn have needed theirs- mainly

here

> at this board and in my marriage.

>

> Your nada's threats are a form of brainwashing. You can't control

her

> and if you are like me, most days its hard enough to control my

own

> emotions and actions. Gets easier managing my life the more I do

it.

> But I can't rescue these people. They're old enough to know

better.

> My kids aren't. I don't have a Christ complex and am not being

> crucified any longer on the alters of their rage. Life is much

more

> than the borderline's version of reality. Real love is out there

and

> I'm getting my share and giving it too to people who genuinely

> appreciate it. You have people who also need you though you may

not

> know it yet nor have you met them yet perhaps. You are worth

> investing in you.

>

> I have been working on this in therapy, but I have SO

> > much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't sleep

> well,

> > and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios about

what

> > will happen.

> ***What matters is what you do. We all have fears and worries and

> anxieties. Bravery is not the loss of fear. It is having great

fear

> but a greater amount of faith. As one whose been in your shoes and

> felt myself shaking and crying and feeling paranoid and isolated,

I

> felt those feelings and just let me feel and heal and worked

through

> them. You and I didn't get to this place overnight. It took a

> lifetime of their brainwashing to get as messed up inside as we've

> been. It doesn't get better overnight either. I babystepped my way

> through the emotions and just got honest w/myself and a lot of

> distance from the FOO. Moving 1000 miles away helped. I could not

get

> better being around them. It is like so many people who get sicker

> the longer they stay in a hospital. I'm really glad you're in

therapy

> to help you along and get these emotions on the table and these

> twisted thought processes that a borderline mother projects onto

her

> children and we take them as real. I do feel badly for you.

Believe

> me I do. It is soooo hard cutting away from them and getting

healthy

> for you.

>

> The question I really want to ask though I don't think

> > anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human

being/daughter

> > if I don't help her out " ?

> *** Only you can answer this, but honestly I don't think so. I

think

> you've had a horrible mother and so naturally you're going to feel

> like a horrible daughter regardless of what you do. Maybe you help

> her now, but in 6 months you'll feel horrible again as a daughter.

> Its a sick dance of addiction- hers w/her mental illness and the

KO

> w/the notion we actually have a mother. That has been the hardest

and

> longest part of separating for me- grieving the loss of the notion

> that I ever had a mother. It hurts- sometimes worse than a real

> death. But I had to burry that notion in order to find out how to

be

> a real mother to my own kids.

>

>

> What is the line between helping a parent

> > and destroying yourself?

> ***As parent I can say there is no way a true parent who loves a

> child the way love is suppose to work in that kind of relationship

> would ever make that child draw that line in the sand- what's the

> line? There isn't one. There need not be one when a true parent is

> involved. You don't destroy yourself. True parents never ask that

> sacrifice of their kids. Instead, I as a parent would die before

ever

> asking my kid to sacrifice their life for mine. That is why we

have

> kids- faith in the future...knowing humanity will keep moving

forward

> despite all its flaws. A parent who asks their child to sacrifice

> themselves for the parent believes time moves backwards b/c they

> themselves are stuck in their past. It doesn't. As a mother, I

tell

> you, you don't need to draw that line. You never think it is an

> option to destroy yourself when you have a real parent. Better

> question is when does the pain get so strong that you realize you

> don't really have a parent? That is a question we all must ask

> ourselves as KOs at one point or another. And it is a harsh

reality

> to wake up to and yet diagnosing the problem is more than half way

to

> the solution.

>

> There is obviously more to this issue that

> > I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it. Anyone out

> > there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice on

how

> to

> > deal?

> ***I suggest reading Understanding the Borderline Mother first and

> foremost to get a deeper glimpse from an outsiders view of what

you

> are dealing with right now. We're here of course, but that book

> really opened my eyes up to some truths I didn't see before and

> offered some pathes of healing the same as this board has done. I

> also like Dave Ramsey's show on dealing w/money and money matters.

> We're debt free but the house as of last Friday and he has had

> several callers call in w/bp parents though they weren't named as

> such. Yet he's also addressed the issue a couple of times about

> dealing w/a borderline parent and money issues.

>

>

> >

> > As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with me.

> ***I think your definition of generous and mine do not add up. I

> don't think giving my children money and gifts throughout a

lifetime

> while they wonder where to draw the line between destroying

> themselves and helping me is a definition of a generous parent.

> Plenty of people don't have money and are a gazillion times more

> generous than a borderline Queen mother who throws gifts on the

table

> every time you turn around only to bite you once you've accepted

> those gifts. Hence I don't accept them anymore. She did, of

course,

> send a check for my son's b-day a month after fiance killed

himself.

> I ripped it up and put it in the trash. That's not generous in my

> book. That's selfish. She manipulates w/material things to get her

> emotional way about her. No thanks. True giving entails giving

what

> the receiver needs and truly wants. I want a mother. She refuses

to

> give me that. All the rest is BS in my book and I don't dance

around

> that fire anymore. I'm content w/my material disposition as it

gives

> me clarity on the other things in life. But when I ask for a

spoon,

> don't hand me a fork and say 'well you should be grateful I gave

you

> a fork at all!' Twisted logic of a borderline mother to hand their

> kids gifts all the time but with hold love and proper emotional

well

> being.

>

> A lot

> > of other people have talked about this, these conditional gifts.

> ***Yes, it is VERY common thread around here- pun intended

> And

> > even though there are strings attached, it's hard to separate

> > yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they show

> > their affection.

> ***At this point, you are assuming you know the mind of a

borderline

> and how they show affection. I am unsure if it is how they show

> affection or not. I can't ever tell if it is strategic for the

next

> time she'll screw me over or if it is b/c she genuinely is

expressing

> her warped version of love. I can't say with certainty. I'm not a

> borderline and so I don't know. and yes, it is hard not to feel

> guilty b/c you've been brainwashed into believeing that when

someone

> hands you a fork when you asked for a spoon you should say 'thank

> you.' That's not how healthy relationships work. Your guilt is

> understandable though as you've been conditioned by a borderline

and

> if you havent' also read Stop Walking On Eggshells, its another

must

> have in the KO library with how to deal w/FOG- fear, obligation

and

> guilt. You're in the FOG zone right now and there is indeed a way

out-

> but not around the FOG, through it. Much like Fear- working

through

> it and not around it. I've had to be honest and work through these

> things that for years I suppressed and was in denial about- hence

> babysteps w/getting healthy- 'How to eat an elephant? One bite at

a

> time.'

>

> Best wishes to you. Reading this was so hard on certain levels

w/the

> suicides I've been through this year and knowing how my nada

> manipulates w/money too. It is very difficult learning how to take

> care of one's self as a KO.

>

> Must run, baby waking.

>

> Kerrie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

Thanks for the kind words!

I know if it weren't for writing, I would've never been able to fight

this illness. That was always my way out- to write it all down as a

witness to it and look back some day and never forget what I endured.

Writing helped to save my life and if I have any pearls of wisdom in

my posts, it is simply been passed along down the way by others whom

I grasped at to find a way out of the insanity (of course I love to

read too). But I do accept your compliment- not always good with

them, but thank you:)

hugs,

Kerrie

> > >

> > > I know a few people have posted about money regarding

> > nada " themes. "

> > > It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with my

> nada

> > to

> > > the point where I have constant anxiety over it.

> > *** I was glad to read you are in therapy. Anxiety disorders are

> one

> > that definitely plagues KOs. I have had it in the past but not

> > lately, not in a good while. Therapy helps and so does the

> validation

> > I've gotten here.

> >

> > My nada is like an

> > > alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of

> thousands

> > of

> > > dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows

> against

> > > her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees.

> > ***If she has no intention of paying it back and is acting like a

> > shopping addict, then it is criminal. It is called fraud. It is

> > illegal though she is twisting the rules to make it appear legal

> for

> > her. Borderlines are always exempt from the rules. They are

> special.

> >

> > She also left the

> > > country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her

> accounts,

> > > which causes me so much stress because I just see the money

> flying

> > > out the window.

> > ***The fact that you said yes to this also says that while she's

a

> > shopping addict, you have addiction issues also. You are addicted

> to

> > pleasing and the notion that you genuinely have a mother when

> she's

> > mentally ill and never knew how to be a mother and that she can

> never

> > give what you needed in childhood but that now as an adult you

can

> > learn to give it to yourself. I know. I'm in recovery from the

> notion

> > that I have a mother who is normal and healthy and won't hurt me

> and

> > will look out for my best interest the way a mother should and

> every

> > time I've gone down that path, like all addicts, I get hurt by

the

> > disillusionment of chasing after something that is external. My

> true

> > mother is within. My biological borderline mother has nothing I

> need

> > now days. She is sick and when I'm around her, I get sick too b/c

> I

> > was raised in that sickness the same as alcoholic families. Some

> > people can't drink. I can't go around my FOO and especially my bp

> > mother. I'm an addict to the concept of rose tinted glasses when

> the

> > world starts falling all around me and I don't want to see the

> truth.

> >

> > I know that she should really be paying her own

> > > bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew up at

> me

> > > and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not stressed

> out

> > > about her bills but rather my personal relationships and this

> has

> > > nothing to do with her.

> > ***How does this logic differ from a drug addict who blames you

> for

> > them smoking crack? Substitute here and see if you would

> internalize

> > and react the same. Perhaps you'd feel the same as I know my

> brother

> > hurt me several times when he was a drug addict. Said mean and

> cruel

> > things he can't ever take back and yet I also know it was the

> drugs

> > talking. With a borderline its the mental illness talking- the

> rage

> > and they need help professionally- they don't need children or

> > spouses rescuing them. They need professionals and yet the addict

> has

> > the freedom to chose recovery or not. Most of the bps I've read

> about

> > here prefer their illness/drug of rage over any relationship in

> their

> > lives.

> >

> >

> > Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes NO

> > > sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come to me

> and

> > > ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am ok

> with

> > > giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back.

> > ****So if she were addicted to cocaine, is there a certain gram

> > weight you are cool with giving her? Same concept by giving a

> > shopping addict money. Or lets say she's like some other bps and

a

> > sex addict. Are you okay with getting her a few boyfriends as a

> > couple is not bad, but 10 guys is out of the question. Your

> initial

> > analogy of being an alcoholic was right on. If she's a gambling

> > addict, which she is just too high falutin to play the roulette

> > wheel, do you give her more money?

> >

> > I'm 27, I live

> > > in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable income

> > > because it is SO expensive here and I totally support myself -

> > rent,

> > > school, food, everything.

> > **That makes you normal.

> >

> >

> > But I can only support myself.

> > ***That's all you are expected in the real world to support

unless

> > you get married and have kids. Then that's a different scenario.

> You

> > are not expected to support your out of control spending mother

> > though except by her standards and do you really want to live by

a

> > crazy person's standards?

> >

> > >

> > > She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare and I

> > > think she expects me to rescue her.

> > ***But you have nothing to rescue her with unless in the way of

> > pointing her to a mental facility. That would be truly rescuing

> her.

> > As it is now, you'd just be throwing money at the problem and

that

> > won't help her in the long run.

> >

> > When I was 15, she threatened to

> > > kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state. I'm

> > waiting

> > > for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat that if

I

> > > don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill

> herself

> > > and blame me.

> > ***This is where I am on expert ground to speak candidly and

> quite

> > honestly. My mother has never threatened suicide. Never once.

> > Instead, she drove me to try it in high school w/my insane hormal

> > teenage angst mixed w/her rage and her ability to project onto me

> all

> > her life's problems. I own my immaturity, rashness and stupidity.

> I

> > internalized it and turned on myself. My brother did the same

> thing a

> > few years later. This past Christmas, I told my nada- 'no more

> gifts.

> > You can not send me or my family anymore gifts. It is not what we

> > want and its not we what need. You can spend your money on

> therapy,

> > but not on us. We need you sane and that's a bigger gift you

could

> > give....one that is wanted instead of all these other things.' Of

> > course that was just a small part of the overall conversation

> where I

> > was determining I needed to go NC w/her as she's certifiably

> insane

> > and it was one of the first times I was not baited into her games

> and

> > I kept my cool and ability to be logical in the face of her 15

> lies,

> > some of which I called her on, as well as her histrionics. The

> short

> > of it was that she sent my oldest son, the one that looks just

> like

> > my brother and her favorite child, 5 gifts, my youngest son 1

gift

> > and my husband two gifts and me none. I'm not stupid though. I

> opened

> > the box three days before Christmas so she wouldn't ruin our

> > holidays. But then fastforward three months later and her live in

> > fiance and boyfriend of 5 years kills himself. I'm sure its all

my

> > fault b/c of going NC in December and 'making' my mother

depressed

> so

> > much that she turned all her rage on him. Oh yes. I own that.

> > Bull$hit. I don't. I went home for the memorial service. The

> funeral

> > did not fit in our schedule and I didn't go. Nada begged for my

> > forgiveness and said 'oh and I forgive you too.' I didn't even

> ask.

> > I'm older and wiser now and I dind't even ask. I don't care in

her

> > twisted logic what she thinks I need forgiveness for and second

> off,

> > I didn't ask for it. She just said it to save face since she

asked

> > for mine... which means here apology wasn't sincere. Additionally

> she

> > cried in hysterics 'if anything his death has taught me is that

> life

> > is too short and we need to make up and put the past behind us.'

I

> > don't think so. My reply: " If anything this has taught me its

just

> > the opposite. The decisions I came to in December were the right

> > decisions for me and my family. You don't need a daughter, you

> need a

> > therapist and when you decide to go down that road, I'll be there

> to

> > try and work on a relationship. " She quickly responded that I

> needed

> > to be in therapy too and as rationally and calmly as I could say

> to

> > an insane person I replied " Yes, I know. I am in therapy and have

> > been for 6 months. " But I was worried about her killing herself

> the

> > night I found out about her fiance's death and so I called my

> > psychiatrist sister in law who assured me that most borderlines

in

> > these situations don't kill themselves and the one's who threaten

> it

> > may attempt it but not carry through in it as it is typically

> > depressed people who carry it out- like nada's fiance- not a bp

> but

> > surely depressed living w/her.

> >

> > A month later one of my good friends of 10 years killed herself.

> She

> > threw out a lot of warniing signs and had been on disability for

a

> > year or so, but I didn't think she would actually kill herself.

My

> > therapist and I talked about it and I told her about the warning

> > signs and she said 'well next time you will know to pick up the

> phone

> > and check in when you get those signs.' And w/o missing a beat I

> > said 'no. I won't do that. I have a life. I have two in diapers

> > (which are sleeping right now which is why I'm permitted to write

> > this much). I have obligations that supercede a need to rescue

> > someone. It was Chris's job to find a good therapist. I told her

> to

> > keep at it. I told her and she decided to kill herself instead

and

> > that was her choice. I can't change someone's mind when they are

> set

> > on something like that. I can't be accountable either and while

> the

> > writing was on the wall, I don't feel responsible for rescuing

her

> > nor my mother nor any other selfish ahole that happens to be in

my

> > life w/mental illness issues. They need professionals, not me.'

My

> > therapist was extremely impressed and said I was absolutely

right.

> > But don't get me wrong. I've got a lot of anger issues I'm

working

> > out myself from these suicides and then yesterday another friend

> > dieing (wish it were last year- the year of weddings vs the year

> of

> > deathes, but oh well. I know this too shall pass).

> >

> > But it is quite arrogant to believe we can control someone else's

> > choice to kill - either themselves or another. The ONLY thing I

> > control is me and I have a hard enough time doing that most days.

> I

> > have learned I can not be responsible for their messed up lives

> and

> > the best I can do is learn to love me and know that there are

> others

> > in my life who do indeed need me to love me- namely my dh and

> kids.

> > But even before then I have been moving away from nada and

> expending

> > less and less energy on rescuing her b/c I know in the end,

others

> > need my help much more and I in turn have needed theirs- mainly

> here

> > at this board and in my marriage.

> >

> > Your nada's threats are a form of brainwashing. You can't control

> her

> > and if you are like me, most days its hard enough to control my

> own

> > emotions and actions. Gets easier managing my life the more I do

> it.

> > But I can't rescue these people. They're old enough to know

> better.

> > My kids aren't. I don't have a Christ complex and am not being

> > crucified any longer on the alters of their rage. Life is much

> more

> > than the borderline's version of reality. Real love is out there

> and

> > I'm getting my share and giving it too to people who genuinely

> > appreciate it. You have people who also need you though you may

> not

> > know it yet nor have you met them yet perhaps. You are worth

> > investing in you.

> >

> > I have been working on this in therapy, but I have SO

> > > much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't sleep

> > well,

> > > and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios about

> what

> > > will happen.

> > ***What matters is what you do. We all have fears and worries and

> > anxieties. Bravery is not the loss of fear. It is having great

> fear

> > but a greater amount of faith. As one whose been in your shoes

and

> > felt myself shaking and crying and feeling paranoid and isolated,

> I

> > felt those feelings and just let me feel and heal and worked

> through

> > them. You and I didn't get to this place overnight. It took a

> > lifetime of their brainwashing to get as messed up inside as

we've

> > been. It doesn't get better overnight either. I babystepped my

way

> > through the emotions and just got honest w/myself and a lot of

> > distance from the FOO. Moving 1000 miles away helped. I could not

> get

> > better being around them. It is like so many people who get

sicker

> > the longer they stay in a hospital. I'm really glad you're in

> therapy

> > to help you along and get these emotions on the table and these

> > twisted thought processes that a borderline mother projects onto

> her

> > children and we take them as real. I do feel badly for you.

> Believe

> > me I do. It is soooo hard cutting away from them and getting

> healthy

> > for you.

> >

> > The question I really want to ask though I don't think

> > > anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human

> being/daughter

> > > if I don't help her out " ?

> > *** Only you can answer this, but honestly I don't think so. I

> think

> > you've had a horrible mother and so naturally you're going to

feel

> > like a horrible daughter regardless of what you do. Maybe you

help

> > her now, but in 6 months you'll feel horrible again as a

daughter.

> > Its a sick dance of addiction- hers w/her mental illness and the

> KO

> > w/the notion we actually have a mother. That has been the hardest

> and

> > longest part of separating for me- grieving the loss of the

notion

> > that I ever had a mother. It hurts- sometimes worse than a real

> > death. But I had to burry that notion in order to find out how to

> be

> > a real mother to my own kids.

> >

> >

> > What is the line between helping a parent

> > > and destroying yourself?

> > ***As parent I can say there is no way a true parent who loves a

> > child the way love is suppose to work in that kind of

relationship

> > would ever make that child draw that line in the sand- what's the

> > line? There isn't one. There need not be one when a true parent

is

> > involved. You don't destroy yourself. True parents never ask that

> > sacrifice of their kids. Instead, I as a parent would die before

> ever

> > asking my kid to sacrifice their life for mine. That is why we

> have

> > kids- faith in the future...knowing humanity will keep moving

> forward

> > despite all its flaws. A parent who asks their child to sacrifice

> > themselves for the parent believes time moves backwards b/c they

> > themselves are stuck in their past. It doesn't. As a mother, I

> tell

> > you, you don't need to draw that line. You never think it is an

> > option to destroy yourself when you have a real parent. Better

> > question is when does the pain get so strong that you realize you

> > don't really have a parent? That is a question we all must ask

> > ourselves as KOs at one point or another. And it is a harsh

> reality

> > to wake up to and yet diagnosing the problem is more than half

way

> to

> > the solution.

> >

> > There is obviously more to this issue that

> > > I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it. Anyone out

> > > there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice on

> how

> > to

> > > deal?

> > ***I suggest reading Understanding the Borderline Mother first

and

> > foremost to get a deeper glimpse from an outsiders view of what

> you

> > are dealing with right now. We're here of course, but that book

> > really opened my eyes up to some truths I didn't see before and

> > offered some pathes of healing the same as this board has done.

I

> > also like Dave Ramsey's show on dealing w/money and money

matters.

> > We're debt free but the house as of last Friday and he has had

> > several callers call in w/bp parents though they weren't named as

> > such. Yet he's also addressed the issue a couple of times about

> > dealing w/a borderline parent and money issues.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with me.

> > ***I think your definition of generous and mine do not add up. I

> > don't think giving my children money and gifts throughout a

> lifetime

> > while they wonder where to draw the line between destroying

> > themselves and helping me is a definition of a generous parent.

> > Plenty of people don't have money and are a gazillion times more

> > generous than a borderline Queen mother who throws gifts on the

> table

> > every time you turn around only to bite you once you've accepted

> > those gifts. Hence I don't accept them anymore. She did, of

> course,

> > send a check for my son's b-day a month after fiance killed

> himself.

> > I ripped it up and put it in the trash. That's not generous in my

> > book. That's selfish. She manipulates w/material things to get

her

> > emotional way about her. No thanks. True giving entails giving

> what

> > the receiver needs and truly wants. I want a mother. She refuses

> to

> > give me that. All the rest is BS in my book and I don't dance

> around

> > that fire anymore. I'm content w/my material disposition as it

> gives

> > me clarity on the other things in life. But when I ask for a

> spoon,

> > don't hand me a fork and say 'well you should be grateful I gave

> you

> > a fork at all!' Twisted logic of a borderline mother to hand

their

> > kids gifts all the time but with hold love and proper emotional

> well

> > being.

> >

> > A lot

> > > of other people have talked about this, these conditional gifts.

> > ***Yes, it is VERY common thread around here- pun intended

> > And

> > > even though there are strings attached, it's hard to separate

> > > yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they show

> > > their affection.

> > ***At this point, you are assuming you know the mind of a

> borderline

> > and how they show affection. I am unsure if it is how they show

> > affection or not. I can't ever tell if it is strategic for the

> next

> > time she'll screw me over or if it is b/c she genuinely is

> expressing

> > her warped version of love. I can't say with certainty. I'm not a

> > borderline and so I don't know. and yes, it is hard not to feel

> > guilty b/c you've been brainwashed into believeing that when

> someone

> > hands you a fork when you asked for a spoon you should say 'thank

> > you.' That's not how healthy relationships work. Your guilt is

> > understandable though as you've been conditioned by a borderline

> and

> > if you havent' also read Stop Walking On Eggshells, its another

> must

> > have in the KO library with how to deal w/FOG- fear, obligation

> and

> > guilt. You're in the FOG zone right now and there is indeed a way

> out-

> > but not around the FOG, through it. Much like Fear- working

> through

> > it and not around it. I've had to be honest and work through

these

> > things that for years I suppressed and was in denial about- hence

> > babysteps w/getting healthy- 'How to eat an elephant? One bite at

> a

> > time.'

> >

> > Best wishes to you. Reading this was so hard on certain levels

> w/the

> > suicides I've been through this year and knowing how my nada

> > manipulates w/money too. It is very difficult learning how to

take

> > care of one's self as a KO.

> >

> > Must run, baby waking.

> >

> > Kerrie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kerrie,

I strongly agree with Kyla. Your last post ROCKED. So you saw my parents

in action and in inaction, huh? You must’ve to have said a lot of the

things you did, ‘cause you told major parts of my story again! Especially

when you wrote, “I don't think giving my children money and gifts

throughout a lifetime while they wonder where to draw the line between

destroying themselves and helping me is a definition of a generous

parent,” and “I want a mother. She refuses to give me that. All the rest

is BS in my book and I don't dance around that fire anymore. When I ask

for a spoon, don't hand me a fork and say 'well you should be grateful I

gave you a fork at all!' Twisted logic of a borderline mother to hand

their kids gifts all the time but with hold love and proper emotional well

being.” You hit on subtleties like those with such focus and force, I

read them and thought, “Whoa! You got it!” Not that my nada and dishrag

fada gave me anywhere near as much as what Charlie called “bad child”

impulses to act out my parents’ dark sides for them. It could be in a

book called, “I Was My Parents Shadow.” It’s like an opposite of “crying

all the way to the bank” -- instead, it’s like smiling all the way to the

gallows. Why am I going there? I dunno, it just seems to be the thing to

do! Some gift.

I feel an unusual strength of validation reading that someone besides me

wants a parent, plain and simple, and anything else is BS. Spot on. If I

want a friend, I’ll call one of mine. If I want an enemy, there’re always

people who won’t like me no matter what I do. I’ll never have a healthy

parent and I had horrible ones. Monsters. I’m responsible for hanging

around them, trying to get them to be parents and fulfill my fantasies of

having healthy parents. I can’t replace the lost decades, but somehow I’m

moving on, even with all my self-destructive impulses nagging and

undermining everything I do, think and feel, making me forget to breathe,

forget to turn things over and forget take them one day at a time.

This group helps me keep my sanity and find a way through the darkness to

my self on the other side, where it waits for me to reclaim it every time

I abandon it like my parents did.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- Kerrie wrote:

> Kyla,

>

> Thanks for the kind words!

>

> I know if it weren't for writing, I would've never been able to fight

> this illness. That was always my way out- to write it all down as a

> witness to it and look back some day and never forget what I endured.

> Writing helped to save my life and if I have any pearls of wisdom in

> my posts, it is simply been passed along down the way by others whom

> I grasped at to find a way out of the insanity (of course I love to

> read too). But I do accept your compliment- not always good with

> them, but thank you:)

> hugs,

> Kerrie

>

> > > >

> > > > I know a few people have posted about money regarding

> > > nada " themes. "

> > > > It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with my

> > nada

> > > to

> > > > the point where I have constant anxiety over it.

> > > *** I was glad to read you are in therapy. Anxiety disorders are

> > one

> > > that definitely plagues KOs. I have had it in the past but not

> > > lately, not in a good while. Therapy helps and so does the

> > validation

> > > I've gotten here.

> > >

> > > My nada is like an

> > > > alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of

> > thousands

> > > of

> > > > dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows

> > against

> > > > her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees.

> > > ***If she has no intention of paying it back and is acting like a

> > > shopping addict, then it is criminal. It is called fraud. It is

> > > illegal though she is twisting the rules to make it appear legal

> > for

> > > her. Borderlines are always exempt from the rules. They are

> > special.

> > >

> > > She also left the

> > > > country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her

> > accounts,

> > > > which causes me so much stress because I just see the money

> > flying

> > > > out the window.

> > > ***The fact that you said yes to this also says that while she's

> a

> > > shopping addict, you have addiction issues also. You are addicted

> > to

> > > pleasing and the notion that you genuinely have a mother when

> > she's

> > > mentally ill and never knew how to be a mother and that she can

> > never

> > > give what you needed in childhood but that now as an adult you

> can

> > > learn to give it to yourself. I know. I'm in recovery from the

> > notion

> > > that I have a mother who is normal and healthy and won't hurt me

> > and

> > > will look out for my best interest the way a mother should and

> > every

> > > time I've gone down that path, like all addicts, I get hurt by

> the

> > > disillusionment of chasing after something that is external. My

> > true

> > > mother is within. My biological borderline mother has nothing I

> > need

> > > now days. She is sick and when I'm around her, I get sick too b/c

> > I

> > > was raised in that sickness the same as alcoholic families. Some

> > > people can't drink. I can't go around my FOO and especially my bp

> > > mother. I'm an addict to the concept of rose tinted glasses when

> > the

> > > world starts falling all around me and I don't want to see the

> > truth.

> > >

> > > I know that she should really be paying her own

> > > > bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew up at

> > me

> > > > and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not stressed

> > out

> > > > about her bills but rather my personal relationships and this

> > has

> > > > nothing to do with her.

> > > ***How does this logic differ from a drug addict who blames you

> > for

> > > them smoking crack? Substitute here and see if you would

> > internalize

> > > and react the same. Perhaps you'd feel the same as I know my

> > brother

> > > hurt me several times when he was a drug addict. Said mean and

> > cruel

> > > things he can't ever take back and yet I also know it was the

> > drugs

> > > talking. With a borderline its the mental illness talking- the

> > rage

> > > and they need help professionally- they don't need children or

> > > spouses rescuing them. They need professionals and yet the addict

> > has

> > > the freedom to chose recovery or not. Most of the bps I've read

> > about

> > > here prefer their illness/drug of rage over any relationship in

> > their

> > > lives.

> > >

> > >

> > > Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes NO

> > > > sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come to me

> > and

> > > > ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am ok

> > with

> > > > giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back.

> > > ****So if she were addicted to cocaine, is there a certain gram

> > > weight you are cool with giving her? Same concept by giving a

> > > shopping addict money. Or lets say she's like some other bps and

> a

> > > sex addict. Are you okay with getting her a few boyfriends as a

> > > couple is not bad, but 10 guys is out of the question. Your

> > initial

> > > analogy of being an alcoholic was right on. If she's a gambling

> > > addict, which she is just too high falutin to play the roulette

> > > wheel, do you give her more money?

> > >

> > > I'm 27, I live

> > > > in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable income

> > > > because it is SO expensive here and I totally support myself -

> > > rent,

> > > > school, food, everything.

> > > **That makes you normal.

> > >

> > >

> > > But I can only support myself.

> > > ***That's all you are expected in the real world to support

> unless

> > > you get married and have kids. Then that's a different scenario.

> > You

> > > are not expected to support your out of control spending mother

> > > though except by her standards and do you really want to live by

> a

> > > crazy person's standards?

> > >

> > > >

> > > > She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare and I

> > > > think she expects me to rescue her.

> > > ***But you have nothing to rescue her with unless in the way of

> > > pointing her to a mental facility. That would be truly rescuing

> > her.

> > > As it is now, you'd just be throwing money at the problem and

> that

> > > won't help her in the long run.

> > >

> > > When I was 15, she threatened to

> > > > kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state. I'm

> > > waiting

> > > > for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat that if

> I

> > > > don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill

> > herself

> > > > and blame me.

> > > ***This is where I am on expert ground to speak candidly and

> > quite

> > > honestly. My mother has never threatened suicide. Never once.

> > > Instead, she drove me to try it in high school w/my insane hormal

> > > teenage angst mixed w/her rage and her ability to project onto me

> > all

> > > her life's problems. I own my immaturity, rashness and stupidity.

> > I

> > > internalized it and turned on myself. My brother did the same

> > thing a

> > > few years later. This past Christmas, I told my nada- 'no more

> > gifts.

> > > You can not send me or my family anymore gifts. It is not what we

> > > want and its not we what need. You can spend your money on

> > therapy,

> > > but not on us. We need you sane and that's a bigger gift you

> could

> > > give....one that is wanted instead of all these other things.' Of

> > > course that was just a small part of the overall conversation

> > where I

> > > was determining I needed to go NC w/her as she's certifiably

> > insane

> > > and it was one of the first times I was not baited into her games

> > and

> > > I kept my cool and ability to be logical in the face of her 15

> > lies,

> > > some of which I called her on, as well as her histrionics. The

> > short

> > > of it was that she sent my oldest son, the one that looks just

> > like

> > > my brother and her favorite child, 5 gifts, my youngest son 1

> gift

> > > and my husband two gifts and me none. I'm not stupid though. I

> > opened

> > > the box three days before Christmas so she wouldn't ruin our

> > > holidays. But then fastforward three months later and her live in

> > > fiance and boyfriend of 5 years kills himself. I'm sure its all

> my

> > > fault b/c of going NC in December and 'making' my mother

> depressed

> > so

> > > much that she turned all her rage on him. Oh yes. I own that.

> > > Bull$hit. I don't. I went home for the memorial service. The

> > funeral

> > > did not fit in our schedule and I didn't go. Nada begged for my

> > > forgiveness and said 'oh and I forgive you too.' I didn't even

> > ask.

> > > I'm older and wiser now and I dind't even ask. I don't care in

> her

> > > twisted logic what she thinks I need forgiveness for and second

> > off,

> > > I didn't ask for it. She just said it to save face since she

> asked

> > > for mine... which means here apology wasn't sincere. Additionally

> > she

> > > cried in hysterics 'if anything his death has taught me is that

> > life

> > > is too short and we need to make up and put the past behind us.'

> I

> > > don't think so. My reply: " If anything this has taught me its

> just

> > > the opposite. The decisions I came to in December were the right

> > > decisions for me and my family. You don't need a daughter, you

> > need a

> > > therapist and when you decide to go down that road, I'll be there

> > to

> > > try and work on a relationship. " She quickly responded that I

> > needed

> > > to be in therapy too and as rationally and calmly as I could say

> > to

> > > an insane person I replied " Yes, I know. I am in therapy and have

> > > been for 6 months. " But I was worried about her killing herself

> > the

> > > night I found out about her fiance's death and so I called my

> > > psychiatrist sister in law who assured me that most borderlines

> in

> > > these situations don't kill themselves and the one's who threaten

> > it

> > > may attempt it but not carry through in it as it is typically

> > > depressed people who carry it out- like nada's fiance- not a bp

> > but

> > > surely depressed living w/her.

> > >

> > > A month later one of my good friends of 10 years killed herself.

> > She

> > > threw out a lot of warniing signs and had been on disability for

> a

> > > year or so, but I didn't think she would actually kill herself.

> My

> > > therapist and I talked about it and I told her about the warning

> > > signs and she said 'well next time you will know to pick up the

> > phone

> > > and check in when you get those signs.' And w/o missing a beat I

> > > said 'no. I won't do that. I have a life. I have two in diapers

> > > (which are sleeping right now which is why I'm permitted to write

> > > this much). I have obligations that supercede a need to rescue

> > > someone. It was Chris's job to find a good therapist. I told her

> > to

> > > keep at it. I told her and she decided to kill herself instead

> and

> > > that was her choice. I can't change someone's mind when they are

> > set

> > > on something like that. I can't be accountable either and while

> > the

> > > writing was on the wall, I don't feel responsible for rescuing

> her

> > > nor my mother nor any other selfish ahole that happens to be in

> my

> > > life w/mental illness issues. They need professionals, not me.'

> My

> > > therapist was extremely impressed and said I was absolutely

> right.

> > > But don't get me wrong. I've got a lot of anger issues I'm

> working

> > > out myself from these suicides and then yesterday another friend

> > > dieing (wish it were last year- the year of weddings vs the year

> > of

> > > deathes, but oh well. I know this too shall pass).

> > >

> > > But it is quite arrogant to believe we can control someone else's

> > > choice to kill - either themselves or another. The ONLY thing I

> > > control is me and I have a hard enough time doing that most days.

> > I

> > > have learned I can not be responsible for their messed up lives

> > and

> > > the best I can do is learn to love me and know that there are

> > others

> > > in my life who do indeed need me to love me- namely my dh and

> > kids.

> > > But even before then I have been moving away from nada and

> > expending

> > > less and less energy on rescuing her b/c I know in the end,

> others

> > > need my help much more and I in turn have needed theirs- mainly

> > here

> > > at this board and in my marriage.

> > >

> > > Your nada's threats are a form of brainwashing. You can't control

> > her

> > > and if you are like me, most days its hard enough to control my

> > own

> > > emotions and actions. Gets easier managing my life the more I do

> > it.

> > > But I can't rescue these people. They're old enough to know

> > better.

> > > My kids aren't. I don't have a Christ complex and am not being

> > > crucified any longer on the alters of their rage. Life is much

> > more

> > > than the borderline's version of reality. Real love is out there

> > and

> > > I'm getting my share and giving it too to people who genuinely

> > > appreciate it. You have people who also need you though you may

> > not

> > > know it yet nor have you met them yet perhaps. You are worth

> > > investing in you.

> > >

> > > I have been working on this in therapy, but I have SO

> > > > much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't sleep

> > > well,

> > > > and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios about

> > what

> > > > will happen.

> > > ***What matters is what you do. We all have fears and worries and

> > > anxieties. Bravery is not the loss of fear. It is having great

> > fear

> > > but a greater amount of faith. As one whose been in your shoes

> and

> > > felt myself shaking and crying and feeling paranoid and isolated,

> > I

> > > felt those feelings and just let me feel and heal and worked

> > through

> > > them. You and I didn't get to this place overnight. It took a

> > > lifetime of their brainwashing to get as messed up inside as

> we've

> > > been. It doesn't get better overnight either. I babystepped my

> way

> > > through the emotions and just got honest w/myself and a lot of

> > > distance from the FOO. Moving 1000 miles away helped. I could not

> > get

> > > better being around them. It is like so many people who get

> sicker

> > > the longer they stay in a hospital. I'm really glad you're in

> > therapy

> > > to help you along and get these emotions on the table and these

> > > twisted thought processes that a borderline mother projects onto

> > her

> > > children and we take them as real. I do feel badly for you.

> > Believe

> > > me I do. It is soooo hard cutting away from them and getting

> > healthy

> > > for you.

> > >

> > > The question I really want to ask though I don't think

> > > > anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human

> > being/daughter

> > > > if I don't help her out " ?

> > > *** Only you can answer this, but honestly I don't think so. I

> > think

> > > you've had a horrible mother and so naturally you're going to

> feel

> > > like a horrible daughter regardless of what you do. Maybe you

> help

> > > her now, but in 6 months you'll feel horrible again as a

> daughter.

> > > Its a sick dance of addiction- hers w/her mental illness and the

> > KO

> > > w/the notion we actually have a mother. That has been the hardest

> > and

> > > longest part of separating for me- grieving the loss of the

> notion

> > > that I ever had a mother. It hurts- sometimes worse than a real

> > > death. But I had to burry that notion in order to find out how to

> > be

> > > a real mother to my own kids.

> > >

> > >

> > > What is the line between helping a parent

> > > > and destroying yourself?

> > > ***As parent I can say there is no way a true parent who loves a

> > > child the way love is suppose to work in that kind of

> relationship

> > > would ever make that child draw that line in the sand- what's the

> > > line? There isn't one. There need not be one when a true parent

> is

> > > involved. You don't destroy yourself. True parents never ask that

> > > sacrifice of their kids. Instead, I as a parent would die before

> > ever

> > > asking my kid to sacrifice their life for mine. That is why we

> > have

> > > kids- faith in the future...knowing humanity will keep moving

> > forward

> > > despite all its flaws. A parent who asks their child to sacrifice

> > > themselves for the parent believes time moves backwards b/c they

> > > themselves are stuck in their past. It doesn't. As a mother, I

> > tell

> > > you, you don't need to draw that line. You never think it is an

> > > option to destroy yourself when you have a real parent. Better

> > > question is when does the pain get so strong that you realize you

> > > don't really have a parent? That is a question we all must ask

> > > ourselves as KOs at one point or another. And it is a harsh

> > reality

> > > to wake up to and yet diagnosing the problem is more than half

> way

> > to

> > > the solution.

> > >

> > > There is obviously more to this issue that

> > > > I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it. Anyone out

> > > > there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice on

> > how

> > > to

> > > > deal?

> > > ***I suggest reading Understanding the Borderline Mother first

> and

> > > foremost to get a deeper glimpse from an outsiders view of what

> > you

> > > are dealing with right now. We're here of course, but that book

> > > really opened my eyes up to some truths I didn't see before and

> > > offered some pathes of healing the same as this board has done.

> I

> > > also like Dave Ramsey's show on dealing w/money and money

> matters.

> > > We're debt free but the house as of last Friday and he has had

> > > several callers call in w/bp parents though they weren't named as

> > > such. Yet he's also addressed the issue a couple of times about

> > > dealing w/a borderline parent and money issues.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with me.

> > > ***I think your definition of generous and mine do not add up. I

> > > don't think giving my children money and gifts throughout a

> > lifetime

> > > while they wonder where to draw the line between destroying

> > > themselves and helping me is a definition of a generous parent.

> > > Plenty of people don't have money and are a gazillion times more

> > > generous than a borderline Queen mother who throws gifts on the

> > table

> > > every time you turn around only to bite you once you've accepted

> > > those gifts. Hence I don't accept them anymore. She did, of

> > course,

> > > send a check for my son's b-day a month after fiance killed

> > himself.

> > > I ripped it up and put it in the trash. That's not generous in my

> > > book. That's selfish. She manipulates w/material things to get

> her

> > > emotional way about her. No thanks. True giving entails giving

> > what

> > > the receiver needs and truly wants. I want a mother. She refuses

> > to

> > > give me that. All the rest is BS in my book and I don't dance

> > around

> > > that fire anymore. I'm content w/my material disposition as it

> > gives

> > > me clarity on the other things in life. But when I ask for a

> > spoon,

> > > don't hand me a fork and say 'well you should be grateful I gave

> > you

> > > a fork at all!' Twisted logic of a borderline mother to hand

> their

> > > kids gifts all the time but with hold love and proper emotional

> > well

> > > being.

> > >

> > > A lot

> > > > of other people have talked about this, these conditional gifts.

> > > ***Yes, it is VERY common thread around here- pun intended

> > > And

> > > > even though there are strings attached, it's hard to separate

> > > > yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they show

> > > > their affection.

> > > ***At this point, you are assuming you know the mind of a

> > borderline

> > > and how they show affection. I am unsure if it is how they show

> > > affection or not. I can't ever tell if it is strategic for the

> > next

> > > time she'll screw me over or if it is b/c she genuinely is

> > expressing

> > > her warped version of love. I can't say with certainty. I'm not a

> > > borderline and so I don't know. and yes, it is hard not to feel

> > > guilty b/c you've been brainwashed into believeing that when

> > someone

> > > hands you a fork when you asked for a spoon you should say 'thank

> > > you.' That's not how healthy relationships work. Your guilt is

> > > understandable though as you've been conditioned by a borderline

> > and

> > > if you havent' also read Stop Walking On Eggshells, its another

> > must

> > > have in the KO library with how to deal w/FOG- fear, obligation

> > and

> > > guilt. You're in the FOG zone right now and there is indeed a way

> > out-

> > > but not around the FOG, through it. Much like Fear- working

> > through

> > > it and not around it. I've had to be honest and work through

> these

> > > things that for years I suppressed and was in denial about- hence

> > > babysteps w/getting healthy- 'How to eat an elephant? One bite at

> > a

> > > time.'

> > >

> > > Best wishes to you. Reading this was so hard on certain levels

> > w/the

> > > suicides I've been through this year and knowing how my nada

> > > manipulates w/money too. It is very difficult learning how to

> take

> > > care of one's self as a KO.

> > >

> > > Must run, baby waking.

> > >

> > > Kerrie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to say thanks to all for listening/responding to my

original post. I have to admit I haven't signed on in a few days.

Just have been thinking about it all and it's a lot to absorb and I

don't really know how to do it. I guess it goes with the territory.

Thank you for taking the time to reach out!!

> > > > >

> > > > > I know a few people have posted about money regarding

> > > > nada " themes. "

> > > > > It is probably one of the biggest issues that I have with

my

> > > nada

> > > > to

> > > > > the point where I have constant anxiety over it.

> > > > *** I was glad to read you are in therapy. Anxiety disorders

are

> > > one

> > > > that definitely plagues KOs. I have had it in the past but

not

> > > > lately, not in a good while. Therapy helps and so does the

> > > validation

> > > > I've gotten here.

> > > >

> > > > My nada is like an

> > > > > alcoholic but with money - she blew through hundreds of

> > > thousands

> > > > of

> > > > > dollars in a relatively short period of time. She borrows

> > > against

> > > > > her credit cards but then goes on shopping sprees.

> > > > ***If she has no intention of paying it back and is acting

like a

> > > > shopping addict, then it is criminal. It is called fraud. It

is

> > > > illegal though she is twisting the rules to make it appear

legal

> > > for

> > > > her. Borderlines are always exempt from the rules. They are

> > > special.

> > > >

> > > > She also left the

> > > > > country and left me to handle paying her bills out of her

> > > accounts,

> > > > > which causes me so much stress because I just see the

money

> > > flying

> > > > > out the window.

> > > > ***The fact that you said yes to this also says that while

she's

> > a

> > > > shopping addict, you have addiction issues also. You are

addicted

> > > to

> > > > pleasing and the notion that you genuinely have a mother

when

> > > she's

> > > > mentally ill and never knew how to be a mother and that she

can

> > > never

> > > > give what you needed in childhood but that now as an adult

you

> > can

> > > > learn to give it to yourself. I know. I'm in recovery from

the

> > > notion

> > > > that I have a mother who is normal and healthy and won't

hurt me

> > > and

> > > > will look out for my best interest the way a mother should

and

> > > every

> > > > time I've gone down that path, like all addicts, I get hurt

by

> > the

> > > > disillusionment of chasing after something that is external.

My

> > > true

> > > > mother is within. My biological borderline mother has

nothing I

> > > need

> > > > now days. She is sick and when I'm around her, I get sick

too b/c

> > > I

> > > > was raised in that sickness the same as alcoholic families.

Some

> > > > people can't drink. I can't go around my FOO and especially

my bp

> > > > mother. I'm an addict to the concept of rose tinted glasses

when

> > > the

> > > > world starts falling all around me and I don't want to see

the

> > > truth.

> > > >

> > > > I know that she should really be paying her own

> > > > > bills, and when I tried talking to her about it she blew

up at

> > > me

> > > > > and turned the situation on me telling me that I'm not

stressed

> > > out

> > > > > about her bills but rather my personal relationships and

this

> > > has

> > > > > nothing to do with her.

> > > > ***How does this logic differ from a drug addict who blames

you

> > > for

> > > > them smoking crack? Substitute here and see if you would

> > > internalize

> > > > and react the same. Perhaps you'd feel the same as I know my

> > > brother

> > > > hurt me several times when he was a drug addict. Said mean

and

> > > cruel

> > > > things he can't ever take back and yet I also know it was

the

> > > drugs

> > > > talking. With a borderline its the mental illness talking-

the

> > > rage

> > > > and they need help professionally- they don't need children

or

> > > > spouses rescuing them. They need professionals and yet the

addict

> > > has

> > > > the freedom to chose recovery or not. Most of the bps I've

read

> > > about

> > > > here prefer their illness/drug of rage over any relationship

in

> > > their

> > > > lives.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Reading that over, her " reasoning " makes NO

> > > > > sense. I'm petrified of the day that she is going to come

to me

> > > and

> > > > > ask/demand for money. I have a figure in my head that I am

ok

> > > with

> > > > > giving to her knowing I probably won't get it back.

> > > > ****So if she were addicted to cocaine, is there a certain

gram

> > > > weight you are cool with giving her? Same concept by giving

a

> > > > shopping addict money. Or lets say she's like some other bps

and

> > a

> > > > sex addict. Are you okay with getting her a few boyfriends

as a

> > > > couple is not bad, but 10 guys is out of the question. Your

> > > initial

> > > > analogy of being an alcoholic was right on. If she's a

gambling

> > > > addict, which she is just too high falutin to play the

roulette

> > > > wheel, do you give her more money?

> > > >

> > > > I'm 27, I live

> > > > > in a big city, and so I don't really have any expendable

income

> > > > > because it is SO expensive here and I totally support

myself -

> > > > rent,

> > > > > school, food, everything.

> > > > **That makes you normal.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > But I can only support myself.

> > > > ***That's all you are expected in the real world to support

> > unless

> > > > you get married and have kids. Then that's a different

scenario.

> > > You

> > > > are not expected to support your out of control spending

mother

> > > > though except by her standards and do you really want to

live by

> > a

> > > > crazy person's standards?

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > She has already dug herself into this financial nightmare

and I

> > > > > think she expects me to rescue her.

> > > > ***But you have nothing to rescue her with unless in the way

of

> > > > pointing her to a mental facility. That would be truly

rescuing

> > > her.

> > > > As it is now, you'd just be throwing money at the problem

and

> > that

> > > > won't help her in the long run.

> > > >

> > > > When I was 15, she threatened to

> > > > > kill herself if I didn't move with her to another state.

I'm

> > > > waiting

> > > > > for the other shoe to drop; I'm waiting for the threat

that if

> > I

> > > > > don't ruin myself financially to rescue her, she will kill

> > > herself

> > > > > and blame me.

> > > > ***This is where I am on expert ground to speak candidly

and

> > > quite

> > > > honestly. My mother has never threatened suicide. Never

once.

> > > > Instead, she drove me to try it in high school w/my insane

hormal

> > > > teenage angst mixed w/her rage and her ability to project

onto me

> > > all

> > > > her life's problems. I own my immaturity, rashness and

stupidity.

> > > I

> > > > internalized it and turned on myself. My brother did the

same

> > > thing a

> > > > few years later. This past Christmas, I told my nada- 'no

more

> > > gifts.

> > > > You can not send me or my family anymore gifts. It is not

what we

> > > > want and its not we what need. You can spend your money on

> > > therapy,

> > > > but not on us. We need you sane and that's a bigger gift you

> > could

> > > > give....one that is wanted instead of all these other

things.' Of

> > > > course that was just a small part of the overall

conversation

> > > where I

> > > > was determining I needed to go NC w/her as she's certifiably

> > > insane

> > > > and it was one of the first times I was not baited into her

games

> > > and

> > > > I kept my cool and ability to be logical in the face of her

15

> > > lies,

> > > > some of which I called her on, as well as her histrionics.

The

> > > short

> > > > of it was that she sent my oldest son, the one that looks

just

> > > like

> > > > my brother and her favorite child, 5 gifts, my youngest son

1

> > gift

> > > > and my husband two gifts and me none. I'm not stupid though.

I

> > > opened

> > > > the box three days before Christmas so she wouldn't ruin our

> > > > holidays. But then fastforward three months later and her

live in

> > > > fiance and boyfriend of 5 years kills himself. I'm sure its

all

> > my

> > > > fault b/c of going NC in December and 'making' my mother

> > depressed

> > > so

> > > > much that she turned all her rage on him. Oh yes. I own

that.

> > > > Bull$hit. I don't. I went home for the memorial service. The

> > > funeral

> > > > did not fit in our schedule and I didn't go. Nada begged for

my

> > > > forgiveness and said 'oh and I forgive you too.' I didn't

even

> > > ask.

> > > > I'm older and wiser now and I dind't even ask. I don't care

in

> > her

> > > > twisted logic what she thinks I need forgiveness for and

second

> > > off,

> > > > I didn't ask for it. She just said it to save face since she

> > asked

> > > > for mine... which means here apology wasn't sincere.

Additionally

> > > she

> > > > cried in hysterics 'if anything his death has taught me is

that

> > > life

> > > > is too short and we need to make up and put the past behind

us.'

> > I

> > > > don't think so. My reply: " If anything this has taught me

its

> > just

> > > > the opposite. The decisions I came to in December were the

right

> > > > decisions for me and my family. You don't need a daughter,

you

> > > need a

> > > > therapist and when you decide to go down that road, I'll be

there

> > > to

> > > > try and work on a relationship. " She quickly responded that

I

> > > needed

> > > > to be in therapy too and as rationally and calmly as I could

say

> > > to

> > > > an insane person I replied " Yes, I know. I am in therapy and

have

> > > > been for 6 months. " But I was worried about her killing

herself

> > > the

> > > > night I found out about her fiance's death and so I called

my

> > > > psychiatrist sister in law who assured me that most

borderlines

> > in

> > > > these situations don't kill themselves and the one's who

threaten

> > > it

> > > > may attempt it but not carry through in it as it is

typically

> > > > depressed people who carry it out- like nada's fiance- not a

bp

> > > but

> > > > surely depressed living w/her.

> > > >

> > > > A month later one of my good friends of 10 years killed

herself.

> > > She

> > > > threw out a lot of warniing signs and had been on disability

for

> > a

> > > > year or so, but I didn't think she would actually kill

herself.

> > My

> > > > therapist and I talked about it and I told her about the

warning

> > > > signs and she said 'well next time you will know to pick up

the

> > > phone

> > > > and check in when you get those signs.' And w/o missing a

beat I

> > > > said 'no. I won't do that. I have a life. I have two in

diapers

> > > > (which are sleeping right now which is why I'm permitted to

write

> > > > this much). I have obligations that supercede a need to

rescue

> > > > someone. It was Chris's job to find a good therapist. I told

her

> > > to

> > > > keep at it. I told her and she decided to kill herself

instead

> > and

> > > > that was her choice. I can't change someone's mind when they

are

> > > set

> > > > on something like that. I can't be accountable either and

while

> > > the

> > > > writing was on the wall, I don't feel responsible for

rescuing

> > her

> > > > nor my mother nor any other selfish ahole that happens to be

in

> > my

> > > > life w/mental illness issues. They need professionals, not

me.'

> > My

> > > > therapist was extremely impressed and said I was absolutely

> > right.

> > > > But don't get me wrong. I've got a lot of anger issues I'm

> > working

> > > > out myself from these suicides and then yesterday another

friend

> > > > dieing (wish it were last year- the year of weddings vs the

year

> > > of

> > > > deathes, but oh well. I know this too shall pass).

> > > >

> > > > But it is quite arrogant to believe we can control someone

else's

> > > > choice to kill - either themselves or another. The ONLY

thing I

> > > > control is me and I have a hard enough time doing that most

days.

> > > I

> > > > have learned I can not be responsible for their messed up

lives

> > > and

> > > > the best I can do is learn to love me and know that there

are

> > > others

> > > > in my life who do indeed need me to love me- namely my dh

and

> > > kids.

> > > > But even before then I have been moving away from nada and

> > > expending

> > > > less and less energy on rescuing her b/c I know in the end,

> > others

> > > > need my help much more and I in turn have needed theirs-

mainly

> > > here

> > > > at this board and in my marriage.

> > > >

> > > > Your nada's threats are a form of brainwashing. You can't

control

> > > her

> > > > and if you are like me, most days its hard enough to control

my

> > > own

> > > > emotions and actions. Gets easier managing my life the more

I do

> > > it.

> > > > But I can't rescue these people. They're old enough to know

> > > better.

> > > > My kids aren't. I don't have a Christ complex and am not

being

> > > > crucified any longer on the alters of their rage. Life is

much

> > > more

> > > > than the borderline's version of reality. Real love is out

there

> > > and

> > > > I'm getting my share and giving it too to people who

genuinely

> > > > appreciate it. You have people who also need you though you

may

> > > not

> > > > know it yet nor have you met them yet perhaps. You are worth

> > > > investing in you.

> > > >

> > > > I have been working on this in therapy, but I have SO

> > > > > much anxiety that my heart races during the day, I don't

sleep

> > > > well,

> > > > > and I just get so depressed thinking through scenarios

about

> > > what

> > > > > will happen.

> > > > ***What matters is what you do. We all have fears and

worries and

> > > > anxieties. Bravery is not the loss of fear. It is having

great

> > > fear

> > > > but a greater amount of faith. As one whose been in your

shoes

> > and

> > > > felt myself shaking and crying and feeling paranoid and

isolated,

> > > I

> > > > felt those feelings and just let me feel and heal and worked

> > > through

> > > > them. You and I didn't get to this place overnight. It took

a

> > > > lifetime of their brainwashing to get as messed up inside as

> > we've

> > > > been. It doesn't get better overnight either. I babystepped

my

> > way

> > > > through the emotions and just got honest w/myself and a lot

of

> > > > distance from the FOO. Moving 1000 miles away helped. I

could not

> > > get

> > > > better being around them. It is like so many people who get

> > sicker

> > > > the longer they stay in a hospital. I'm really glad you're

in

> > > therapy

> > > > to help you along and get these emotions on the table and

these

> > > > twisted thought processes that a borderline mother projects

onto

> > > her

> > > > children and we take them as real. I do feel badly for you.

> > > Believe

> > > > me I do. It is soooo hard cutting away from them and getting

> > > healthy

> > > > for you.

> > > >

> > > > The question I really want to ask though I don't think

> > > > > anyone can answer is: " am I a terrible person/human

> > > being/daughter

> > > > > if I don't help her out " ?

> > > > *** Only you can answer this, but honestly I don't think so.

I

> > > think

> > > > you've had a horrible mother and so naturally you're going

to

> > feel

> > > > like a horrible daughter regardless of what you do. Maybe

you

> > help

> > > > her now, but in 6 months you'll feel horrible again as a

> > daughter.

> > > > Its a sick dance of addiction- hers w/her mental illness and

the

> > > KO

> > > > w/the notion we actually have a mother. That has been the

hardest

> > > and

> > > > longest part of separating for me- grieving the loss of the

> > notion

> > > > that I ever had a mother. It hurts- sometimes worse than a

real

> > > > death. But I had to burry that notion in order to find out

how to

> > > be

> > > > a real mother to my own kids.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > What is the line between helping a parent

> > > > > and destroying yourself?

> > > > ***As parent I can say there is no way a true parent who

loves a

> > > > child the way love is suppose to work in that kind of

> > relationship

> > > > would ever make that child draw that line in the sand-

what's the

> > > > line? There isn't one. There need not be one when a true

parent

> > is

> > > > involved. You don't destroy yourself. True parents never ask

that

> > > > sacrifice of their kids. Instead, I as a parent would die

before

> > > ever

> > > > asking my kid to sacrifice their life for mine. That is why

we

> > > have

> > > > kids- faith in the future...knowing humanity will keep

moving

> > > forward

> > > > despite all its flaws. A parent who asks their child to

sacrifice

> > > > themselves for the parent believes time moves backwards b/c

they

> > > > themselves are stuck in their past. It doesn't. As a mother,

I

> > > tell

> > > > you, you don't need to draw that line. You never think it is

an

> > > > option to destroy yourself when you have a real parent.

Better

> > > > question is when does the pain get so strong that you

realize you

> > > > don't really have a parent? That is a question we all must

ask

> > > > ourselves as KOs at one point or another. And it is a harsh

> > > reality

> > > > to wake up to and yet diagnosing the problem is more than

half

> > way

> > > to

> > > > the solution.

> > > >

> > > > There is obviously more to this issue that

> > > > > I can write in one post, but this is the crux of it.

Anyone out

> > > > > there who has experienced anything like this??? Any advice

on

> > > how

> > > > to

> > > > > deal?

> > > > ***I suggest reading Understanding the Borderline Mother

first

> > and

> > > > foremost to get a deeper glimpse from an outsiders view of

what

> > > you

> > > > are dealing with right now. We're here of course, but that

book

> > > > really opened my eyes up to some truths I didn't see before

and

> > > > offered some pathes of healing the same as this board has

done.

> > I

> > > > also like Dave Ramsey's show on dealing w/money and money

> > matters.

> > > > We're debt free but the house as of last Friday and he has

had

> > > > several callers call in w/bp parents though they weren't

named as

> > > > such. Yet he's also addressed the issue a couple of times

about

> > > > dealing w/a borderline parent and money issues.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > As as aside, throughout my life she was very generous with

me.

> > > > ***I think your definition of generous and mine do not add

up. I

> > > > don't think giving my children money and gifts throughout a

> > > lifetime

> > > > while they wonder where to draw the line between destroying

> > > > themselves and helping me is a definition of a generous

parent.

> > > > Plenty of people don't have money and are a gazillion times

more

> > > > generous than a borderline Queen mother who throws gifts on

the

> > > table

> > > > every time you turn around only to bite you once you've

accepted

> > > > those gifts. Hence I don't accept them anymore. She did, of

> > > course,

> > > > send a check for my son's b-day a month after fiance killed

> > > himself.

> > > > I ripped it up and put it in the trash. That's not generous

in my

> > > > book. That's selfish. She manipulates w/material things to

get

> > her

> > > > emotional way about her. No thanks. True giving entails

giving

> > > what

> > > > the receiver needs and truly wants. I want a mother. She

refuses

> > > to

> > > > give me that. All the rest is BS in my book and I don't

dance

> > > around

> > > > that fire anymore. I'm content w/my material disposition as

it

> > > gives

> > > > me clarity on the other things in life. But when I ask for a

> > > spoon,

> > > > don't hand me a fork and say 'well you should be grateful I

gave

> > > you

> > > > a fork at all!' Twisted logic of a borderline mother to hand

> > their

> > > > kids gifts all the time but with hold love and proper

emotional

> > > well

> > > > being.

> > > >

> > > > A lot

> > > > > of other people have talked about this, these conditional

gifts.

> > > > ***Yes, it is VERY common thread around here- pun intended

> > > > And

> > > > > even though there are strings attached, it's hard to

separate

> > > > > yourself from it and not feel guilty when this is how they

show

> > > > > their affection.

> > > > ***At this point, you are assuming you know the mind of a

> > > borderline

> > > > and how they show affection. I am unsure if it is how they

show

> > > > affection or not. I can't ever tell if it is strategic for

the

> > > next

> > > > time she'll screw me over or if it is b/c she genuinely is

> > > expressing

> > > > her warped version of love. I can't say with certainty. I'm

not a

> > > > borderline and so I don't know. and yes, it is hard not to

feel

> > > > guilty b/c you've been brainwashed into believeing that when

> > > someone

> > > > hands you a fork when you asked for a spoon you should

say 'thank

> > > > you.' That's not how healthy relationships work. Your guilt

is

> > > > understandable though as you've been conditioned by a

borderline

> > > and

> > > > if you havent' also read Stop Walking On Eggshells, its

another

> > > must

> > > > have in the KO library with how to deal w/FOG- fear,

obligation

> > > and

> > > > guilt. You're in the FOG zone right now and there is indeed

a way

> > > out-

> > > > but not around the FOG, through it. Much like Fear- working

> > > through

> > > > it and not around it. I've had to be honest and work through

> > these

> > > > things that for years I suppressed and was in denial about-

hence

> > > > babysteps w/getting healthy- 'How to eat an elephant? One

bite at

> > > a

> > > > time.'

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes to you. Reading this was so hard on certain

levels

> > > w/the

> > > > suicides I've been through this year and knowing how my nada

> > > > manipulates w/money too. It is very difficult learning how

to

> > take

> > > > care of one's self as a KO.

> > > >

> > > > Must run, baby waking.

> > > >

> > > > Kerrie

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>