Re: Question for the group: nada's and logic?

[Guest guest]

It is my opinion that some of BPD is a learnign disorder we just havne't labeled

it that way yet. The way I see it as a disorder is that BPD's cannot learn from

their mistakes, they keep making them. If that isn't a learning disorder I

dont' know what is. I agree on the logic as that my nada favored english and

hated math and science to areas that requrie logic

Marie

tlblack2006 wrote:

Hi everyone, I know that nada's have trouble with logic during arguments, but

I was

wondering if yours also have trouble understanding some subjects even when not

upset.

My nada, for example, does not seem to be able to read a map at all. I remember

being

her navigator in the car from a really young age and realizing that she just

doesn't know

where we are at all by the questions she'll ask. Also, in terms of computers,

she just

cannot seem to " get " certain things. My brother says that the way she works

with

computers kind of seems like a religion to him--she has no logical idea how it

works, she

just does everything on faith and if you try to explain why something can't be

or won't

work, she will not believe you.

She's kind of like that with antibiotics too, when I think of it--if anyone gets

sick in her

house, she insists that they go on antibiotics--and she has found a doctor that

will put

you on antibiotics no matter what you have! She will not believe me when I tell

her that

viral infections don't respond to antibiotics.

She's not necessarily angry (although she can get angry if you push her), she

just won't

listen to reason about this stuff. In fact, I think she operates without logic

most of the

time. As a child, if I would ask her " why? " she would not explain, she would

just say,

" that's the way it is. "

I don't actually know if this is a BPD thing--I have actually wondered if she

may have a

learning disorder that could be unrelated. What do you all think?

Trish

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to “Understanding the Borderline

Mother” (Lawson) and “Surviving the Borderline Parent,” (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Trish,

That's an interesting question and one that could make a good research

project. Marie, you've got a good point about it.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- proflaf1 wrote:

> It is my opinion that some of BPD is a learnign disorder we just havne't

> labeled it that way yet. The way I see it as a disorder is that BPD's

> cannot learn from their mistakes, they keep making them. If that isn't a

> learning disorder I dont' know what is. I agree on the logic as that

> my nada favored english and hated math and science to areas that requrie

> logic

> Marie

>

> tlblack2006 wrote:

> Hi everyone, I know that nada's have trouble with logic during

> arguments, but I was

> wondering if yours also have trouble understanding some subjects even

> when not upset.

>

> My nada, for example, does not seem to be able to read a map at all. I

> remember being

> her navigator in the car from a really young age and realizing that she

> just doesn't know

> where we are at all by the questions she'll ask. Also, in terms of

> computers, she just

> cannot seem to " get " certain things. My brother says that the way she

> works with

> computers kind of seems like a religion to him--she has no logical idea

> how it works, she

> just does everything on faith and if you try to explain why something

> can't be or won't

> work, she will not believe you.

>

> She's kind of like that with antibiotics too, when I think of it--if

> anyone gets sick in her

> house, she insists that they go on antibiotics--and she has found a

> doctor that will put

> you on antibiotics no matter what you have! She will not believe me

> when I tell her that

> viral infections don't respond to antibiotics.

>

> She's not necessarily angry (although she can get angry if you push

> her), she just won't

> listen to reason about this stuff. In fact, I think she operates

> without logic most of the

> time. As a child, if I would ask her " why? " she would not explain, she

> would just say,

> " that's the way it is. "

>

> I don't actually know if this is a BPD thing--I have actually wondered

> if she may have a

> learning disorder that could be unrelated. What do you all think?

>

> Trish

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond

> ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the

> Borderline Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,�

> (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO

> community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

> SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Picking up on this thread again, I am convinced there is a neurological

component to BPD because of the genetic tendencies I see in my family. My mother

is a BPD queen-- were' now NC and I've been through the same questions and

doubts I've seen on the list lately-- but I really need distance from her to

protect my family because my younger son has a non-verbal learning disability

(NLD).

NLD isn't in the DSM yet, but you can find plenty of information online and

when you read the profile, I suspect many of you will see the connections.

Sometimes called " high functioning Asperger Syndrome, " NLD is characterized by

social cognition deficits, poor spatial reasoning (eg maps are difficult, as

is geometry), executive function deficit (disorganization) and often sensory

integration challenges. In summary, my son is a kid who finds much of the

world literally painful, has trouble playing by the rules in school (hence

risks

internalizing a sense of social failure), and doesn't really understand the

impact of his behavior on others.

Sound familiar? I often feel like I am raising my BPD mother.

My son will always have to deal with the neurological challenges of NLD, but

my passion right now is to make sure that his way of coping doesn't become a

personality disorder. Eg just because his inner world is chaotic and

painful, he doesn't have to inflict his pain on others. He can learn ways to

soothe

himself instead. As a family and school community, we can create spaces

where he can feel safe saying " this is really hard... this really hurts " Which

is

something my BPD mother never had. So in an odd way, getting inside of

's head helps me to empathize with my BPD mother, even though I won't deal

with her crap.

Did any of you ever pick up on the case Peck describes in " People of

the Lie " ( a book about BPD IMHO) of an apparently manipulative young woman

whom he finally concludes is autistic? I believe there is a strong correlation

between autism-spectrum disorders (of which NLD is a cousin) and BPD. But for

the sake of my son, I have to believe that autism-spectrum disorders and BPD

are not comorbid. However, I think BPD may be the result if autism-spectrum

kids don't have a chance to develop successful methods for coping with their

very real pain.

Sound familiar to anyone?

[Guest guest]

Trish,

I don't think the inability to learn certain things is connected to

BPD. However, there are studies that are looking into connections

between attention deficit disorder and BPD. It is understood that

people with ADD are often very intelligent - but they have this

inability for sustained concentration. (My apologies for a

simplified definition.) Even though BPD may not be the cause, it is

probably a contributing factor. For example, with my nada, I think

there are many times when she won't admit she doesn't know

something - and therefore she close the door to actually learning

that particular thing!

I get the same reaction from my nada when I ask her 'why'! Many

times just that question would get her to stop talking about the

current subject - sometimes she would get mad that I 'challenged'

her - and sometimes she would just splutter a bit and give a lame

answer.

Although I don't remember it, I think that as a child this was one

of the areas that upset nada the most. I was always asking

questions, and I am sure it caused BPD backlash my way.

Sylvia

>

> Hi everyone, I know that nada's have trouble with logic during

arguments, but I was

> wondering if yours also have trouble understanding some subjects

even when not upset.

>

> My nada, for example, does not seem to be able to read a map at

all. I remember being

> her navigator in the car from a really young age and realizing

that she just doesn't know

> where we are at all by the questions she'll ask. Also, in terms

of computers, she just

> cannot seem to " get " certain things. My brother says that the way

she works with

> computers kind of seems like a religion to him--she has no logical

idea how it works, she

> just does everything on faith and if you try to explain why

something can't be or won't

> work, she will not believe you.

>

> She's kind of like that with antibiotics too, when I think of it--

if anyone gets sick in her

> house, she insists that they go on antibiotics--and she has found

a doctor that will put

> you on antibiotics no matter what you have! She will not believe

me when I tell her that

> viral infections don't respond to antibiotics.

>

> She's not necessarily angry (although she can get angry if you

push her), she just won't

> listen to reason about this stuff. In fact, I think she operates

without logic most of the

> time. As a child, if I would ask her " why? " she would not

explain, she would just say,

> " that's the way it is. "

>

> I don't actually know if this is a BPD thing--I have actually

wondered if she may have a

> learning disorder that could be unrelated. What do you all

think?

>

> Trish

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting. My dd has ADD and looks like she probably has OCD. They

don't really know for sure how much of ADD is genetic. I really don't think

I was ADD. My sister has a lot of traits of it but not the full blown

ADD. So I don't know if nada is ADD or even my dad for sure. I kind of

think nada could be. Nada always hated appearing stupid b/c she was not

able to go to high school when she was a kid. But she hates thinking that

she is stupid about anything, I think b/c she knows she is smart, I don't

know. My dd is quite intelligent but just does not learn or function like

85% of the world does.

Theresa

>

> Trish,

>

> I don't think the inability to learn certain things is connected to

> BPD. However, there are studies that are looking into connections

> between attention deficit disorder and BPD. It is understood that

> people with ADD are often very intelligent - but they have this

> inability for sustained concentration. (My apologies for a

> simplified definition.) Even though BPD may not be the cause, it is

> probably a contributing factor. For example, with my nada, I think

> there are many times when she won't admit she doesn't know

> something - and therefore she close the door to actually learning

> that particular thing!

>

> I get the same reaction from my nada when I ask her 'why'! Many

> times just that question would get her to stop talking about the

> current subject - sometimes she would get mad that I 'challenged'

> her - and sometimes she would just splutter a bit and give a lame

> answer.

>

> Although I don't remember it, I think that as a child this was one

> of the areas that upset nada the most. I was always asking

> questions, and I am sure it caused BPD backlash my way.

>

> Sylvia

>

>

> >

> > Hi everyone, I know that nada's have trouble with logic during

> arguments, but I was

> > wondering if yours also have trouble understanding some subjects

> even when not upset.

> >

> > My nada, for example, does not seem to be able to read a map at

> all. I remember being

> > her navigator in the car from a really young age and realizing

> that she just doesn't know

> > where we are at all by the questions she'll ask. Also, in terms

> of computers, she just

> > cannot seem to " get " certain things. My brother says that the way

> she works with

> > computers kind of seems like a religion to him--she has no logical

> idea how it works, she

> > just does everything on faith and if you try to explain why

> something can't be or won't

> > work, she will not believe you.

> >

> > She's kind of like that with antibiotics too, when I think of it--

> if anyone gets sick in her

> > house, she insists that they go on antibiotics--and she has found

> a doctor that will put

> > you on antibiotics no matter what you have! She will not believe

> me when I tell her that

> > viral infections don't respond to antibiotics.

> >

> > She's not necessarily angry (although she can get angry if you

> push her), she just won't

> > listen to reason about this stuff. In fact, I think she operates

> without logic most of the

> > time. As a child, if I would ask her " why? " she would not

> explain, she would just say,

> > " that's the way it is. "

> >

> > I don't actually know if this is a BPD thing--I have actually

> wondered if she may have a

> > learning disorder that could be unrelated. What do you all

> think?

> >

> > Trish

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond

> ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

>

[Guest guest]

ADD is an interesting topic--I've actually wondered if I have ADD and asked my

therapist

about it--he recomended I read a book about ADD and anxiety (which I for sure

have a

problem with). Interestingly, since working on my anxiety, a lot of my

" spaciness " has

cleared up! My I used to wonder about my dad and ADD as well, but I really am

begining

to think that living with or being in contact with my nada can make it hard to

focus and

that there might not be something inherantly " wrong " with either of us.

I've met people who seem to have ADD not for family reasons, but just as their

way of

thinking and I believe it exists, I just think it's interesting to take a look

at how many

factors can be environmental.

Trish

> > >

> > > Hi everyone, I know that nada's have trouble with logic during

> > arguments, but I was

> > > wondering if yours also have trouble understanding some subjects

> > even when not upset.

> > >

> > > My nada, for example, does not seem to be able to read a map at

> > all. I remember being

> > > her navigator in the car from a really young age and realizing

> > that she just doesn't know

> > > where we are at all by the questions she'll ask. Also, in terms

> > of computers, she just

> > > cannot seem to " get " certain things. My brother says that the way

> > she works with

> > > computers kind of seems like a religion to him--she has no logical

> > idea how it works, she

> > > just does everything on faith and if you try to explain why

> > something can't be or won't

> > > work, she will not believe you.

> > >

> > > She's kind of like that with antibiotics too, when I think of it--

> > if anyone gets sick in her

> > > house, she insists that they go on antibiotics--and she has found

> > a doctor that will put

> > > you on antibiotics no matter what you have! She will not believe

> > me when I tell her that

> > > viral infections don't respond to antibiotics.

> > >

> > > She's not necessarily angry (although she can get angry if you

> > push her), she just won't

> > > listen to reason about this stuff. In fact, I think she operates

> > without logic most of the

> > > time. As a child, if I would ask her " why? " she would not

> > explain, she would just say,

> > > " that's the way it is. "

> > >

> > > I don't actually know if this is a BPD thing--I have actually

> > wondered if she may have a

> > > learning disorder that could be unrelated. What do you all

> > think?

> > >

> > > Trish

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> > @B... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond

> > ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> > () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> > and the SWOE Workbook.

> >

[Guest guest]

OH MY GOD!!!! I will be looking into that for sure! I've always wondered why

my mom was

so against the idea that anyone of us kids could have a learning

dissability--she would not

let my brother be in special ed or even be tested and always freaked out about

it in a weird

way when it was mentioned. Thank you for that insight! And I think your right

that people

don't have to be BPD because they have a learning dissability, but that having

it handled

poorly can be very traumatizing indeed.

I will think about this and probably post again! Again, WOW!

Trish

>

> Picking up on this thread again, I am convinced there is a neurological

> component to BPD because of the genetic tendencies I see in my family. My

mother

> is a BPD queen-- were' now NC and I've been through the same questions and

> doubts I've seen on the list lately-- but I really need distance from her to

> protect my family because my younger son has a non-verbal learning disability

> (NLD).

>

> NLD isn't in the DSM yet, but you can find plenty of information online and

> when you read the profile, I suspect many of you will see the connections.

> Sometimes called " high functioning Asperger Syndrome, " NLD is characterized by

> social cognition deficits, poor spatial reasoning (eg maps are difficult, as

> is geometry), executive function deficit (disorganization) and often sensory

> integration challenges. In summary, my son is a kid who finds much of the

> world literally painful, has trouble playing by the rules in school (hence

risks

> internalizing a sense of social failure), and doesn't really understand the

> impact of his behavior on others.

>

> Sound familiar? I often feel like I am raising my BPD mother.

>

> My son will always have to deal with the neurological challenges of NLD, but

> my passion right now is to make sure that his way of coping doesn't become a

> personality disorder. Eg just because his inner world is chaotic and

> painful, he doesn't have to inflict his pain on others. He can learn ways to

soothe

> himself instead. As a family and school community, we can create spaces

> where he can feel safe saying " this is really hard... this really hurts "

Which is

> something my BPD mother never had. So in an odd way, getting inside of

> 's head helps me to empathize with my BPD mother, even though I won't

deal

> with her crap.

>

> Did any of you ever pick up on the case Peck describes in " People of

> the Lie " ( a book about BPD IMHO) of an apparently manipulative young woman

> whom he finally concludes is autistic? I believe there is a strong

correlation

> between autism-spectrum disorders (of which NLD is a cousin) and BPD. But for

> the sake of my son, I have to believe that autism-spectrum disorders and BPD

> are not comorbid. However, I think BPD may be the result if autism-spectrum

> kids don't have a chance to develop successful methods for coping with their

> very real pain.

>

> Sound familiar to anyone?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's funny, just before I read your post, I responded to another about ADD and

anxiety!

Again, I think just growing up around a BPD (which my nada did--and which we all

did)

can be enough to make it very tough to focus for a sustained period of time. I

had not

heard the link between BPD and ADD, however and I think it's worth looking into

more!

Trish

> >

> > Hi everyone, I know that nada's have trouble with logic during

> arguments, but I was

> > wondering if yours also have trouble understanding some subjects

> even when not upset.

> >

> > My nada, for example, does not seem to be able to read a map at

> all. I remember being

> > her navigator in the car from a really young age and realizing

> that she just doesn't know

> > where we are at all by the questions she'll ask. Also, in terms

> of computers, she just

> > cannot seem to " get " certain things. My brother says that the way

> she works with

> > computers kind of seems like a religion to him--she has no logical

> idea how it works, she

> > just does everything on faith and if you try to explain why

> something can't be or won't

> > work, she will not believe you.

> >

> > She's kind of like that with antibiotics too, when I think of it--

> if anyone gets sick in her

> > house, she insists that they go on antibiotics--and she has found

> a doctor that will put

> > you on antibiotics no matter what you have! She will not believe

> me when I tell her that

> > viral infections don't respond to antibiotics.

> >

> > She's not necessarily angry (although she can get angry if you

> push her), she just won't

> > listen to reason about this stuff. In fact, I think she operates

> without logic most of the

> > time. As a child, if I would ask her " why? " she would not

> explain, she would just say,

> > " that's the way it is. "

> >

> > I don't actually know if this is a BPD thing--I have actually

> wondered if she may have a

> > learning disorder that could be unrelated. What do you all

> think?

> >

> > Trish

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

i have researched this quite a bit as two of my children have been

diagnosed bpd and at least three of my grandchildren have it. i

believe it was a main factor in my mother's bpd. i read in a recent

article at medscape.com that over 90% of add/adhd is genetic.

here are a couple of sites for you to look at

www.biologicalunhappiness.com here dr. leland heller discusses bpd

very interesting

http://www.aaets.org/article20.htm an eqifinity model here's a

small quote from this article

" Childhood bipolar disorder (Biederman, 1997) is an under recognized

disorder whose symptoms include unstable moods, distractibility,

impulsiveness, severe aggressiveness, and hyperactivity. Unlike adult

bipolar disorder, childhood bipolar disorder symptoms are chronic and

continuous, This disorder is also correlated with ADHD. The two

disorders may be genetically linked. All of its symptoms, especially

impulsiveness and aggression, overlap with those of BPD. It is

possible that untreated or ineffectively treated childhood bipolar

disorder and/or ADHD could predispose the child to later develop BPD. "

there are many other references on google. dee

> Interesting. My dd has ADD and looks like she probably has OCD. They

> don't really know for sure how much of ADD is genetic. I really

don't think

> I was ADD. My sister has a lot of traits of it but not the full blown

> ADD. So I don't know if nada is ADD or even my dad for sure. I kind of

> think nada could be. Nada always hated appearing stupid b/c she

was not

> able to go to high school when she was a kid. But she hates

thinking that

> she is stupid about anything, I think b/c she knows she is smart, I

don't

> know. My dd is quite intelligent but just does not learn or

function like

> 85% of the world does.

>

> Theresa

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I agree that Peck's " People of

the Lie " has BPD people in it. The " apparently manipulative young woman

whom he finally concludes is autistic " is one of many possibilities in his

book, especially the parents who gave their son, as a " present, " the item

with which his brother, their other son, had killed himself.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- jmccraygo@... wrote:

> Picking up on this thread again, I am convinced there is a neurological

>

> component to BPD because of the genetic tendencies I see in my family.

> My mother

> is a BPD queen-- were' now NC and I've been through the same questions

> and

> doubts I've seen on the list lately-- but I really need distance from

> her to

> protect my family because my younger son has a non-verbal learning

> disability

> (NLD).

>

> NLD isn't in the DSM yet, but you can find plenty of information online

> and

> when you read the profile, I suspect many of you will see the

> connections.

> Sometimes called " high functioning Asperger Syndrome, " NLD is

> characterized by

> social cognition deficits, poor spatial reasoning (eg maps are

> difficult, as

> is geometry), executive function deficit (disorganization) and often

> sensory

> integration challenges. In summary, my son is a kid who finds much of

> the

> world literally painful, has trouble playing by the rules in school

> (hence risks

> internalizing a sense of social failure), and doesn't really understand

> the

> impact of his behavior on others.

>

> Sound familiar? I often feel like I am raising my BPD mother.

>

> My son will always have to deal with the neurological challenges of NLD,

> but

> my passion right now is to make sure that his way of coping doesn't

> become a

> personality disorder. Eg just because his inner world is chaotic and

> painful, he doesn't have to inflict his pain on others. He can learn

> ways to soothe

> himself instead. As a family and school community, we can create

> spaces

> where he can feel safe saying " this is really hard... this really hurts "

> Which is

> something my BPD mother never had. So in an odd way, getting inside of

> 's head helps me to empathize with my BPD mother, even though I

> won't deal

> with her crap.

>

> Did any of you ever pick up on the case Peck describes in " People

> of

> the Lie " ( a book about BPD IMHO) of an apparently manipulative young

> woman

> whom he finally concludes is autistic? I believe there is a strong

> correlation

> between autism-spectrum disorders (of which NLD is a cousin) and BPD.

> But for

> the sake of my son, I have to believe that autism-spectrum disorders

> and BPD

> are not comorbid. However, I think BPD may be the result if

> autism-spectrum

> kids don't have a chance to develop successful methods for coping with

> their

> very real pain.

>

> Sound familiar to anyone?

>

>

>

>

>