Re: The right to defend family? (was respecting sibling's NC)

[Guest guest]

Don't know if this will help but this was my situation w/nada

> Have any of you got similar experiences?

If so, what do you think your rights are in dealing with this I

think that's maybe

> part of the reason that I feel invalidated in my desire to do

> something about it.

I can't figure out what irritates me so much about it and I can't

really put into words

> exactly what I think is being violated when my nada insists on this

> kind of thing. ?

>

I think nada denial on reality plays a major factor in nada's pitting

family against each other. I realized what nada would accuse others

of doing, was things she had actually done herself. Took me years

and alot of digging in the past to figure that out. Tons of help

from my dad and siblings and nada's brother and asking a lot of

questions about what happened in past and what nada had told me

etc...

I think nada has loads of guilt and can't bear it so tries to put

that burden on others. Tons of emotional manipulation to try

and " fix " others sins.

Many years I let it slide until I realized it was not good for anyone

to let her think I agreed with her slander campaigns. I think it

validated her when she'd think you'd agree with her and it was not

getting better, it was out of control. My siblings and I didn't

speak to each other for many years because we believed her when she'd

pit us against the other. So I began standing up and confronting

her ...tough road that one is...I had to make sure someone else was

with me whenever I was beckoned to come over. I'm now n/c after many

warnings (2 years of warnings) to stop the manipulations I don't

know what the future holds, but it doesn't matter. I did what was

best for me and my families sanity to break away from nada world so

it won't continue. >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Trish, would you feel like you have a right to refuse to watch

someone hitting their spouse or child or pet? Would you feel that

you had a right to try to do what you could (within the bounds of

safety, of course) to try to stop the abuse?

Your nada is always abusing somebody, or more than one somebody, when

she engages in her smear campaigns. I personally believe it is

emotional abuse on two levels.

On the first level, nada is undermining the relationship(s) of the

person being smeared, and that is abusive. It is an isolating

tactic, designed to put the victim in a situation of helplessness,

where they will have no one to turn to but the abuser. (I believe

that the ultimate, unconscious goal of a BP smear campaign is to have

the victim " come crawling " back to the BP. It is sad how often this

actually occurs in real-life BP-affected families.)

On the second level, she is forcing (or at least coercing)

her " audience " to witness abuse, and there are tons of scientific

studies showing that witnessing abuse, especially involuntarily,

causes significant physiological trauma. Not to mention that she is

also trying to undermine YOUR relationship with her " smear-victim " .

(It seems to me that BPs often believe -- with desperate urgency! --

that they NEED to be at the " hub " of the family network of

relationships -- everything needs to happen via the BP, and

all " relating " not involving the BP needs to be not only invalidated

but penalized. Again, it is sad how often this actually occurs in

real-life BP-affected families.)

Of course, as KOs, we all get very desensitized to abuse, because

it's been labelled " normal " , and in some ways our densensitization

can be especially hard to detect and overcome because the BP " style "

of abuse is so often manipulative and subtle. I would say that your

sense of violation is absolutely accurate, and is a sign of a healthy

self-protective instinct. And it is a classic trait of adult

survivors of childhood abuse that we question our " right " to act on

our self-protective instincts.

Hugs,

> > > >

> > > > Ive been the black sheep too, BP. And when my compassion for

Yeti

> > > > disappeared, I found that standing up to her and telling

everyone in

> > > the

> > > > family the conditions I was under when I did (whatever she was

> > > bitching

> > > > about) was one of the best things I ever did. The best being

going

> > > NC...

> > > >

> > > > I would suggest a direct approach. Diplomacy doesn't work

with them,

> > > it

> > > > gives them the fodder for the cognitive 'triumphs' that Sylvia

> > > talked about.

> > > > Venom works much better. Explain to (everyone else who is

listening

> > > to her)

> > > > the exact circumstances, as far as you know them.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Send instant messages to your online friends

> > > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

> Your nada is always abusing somebody, or more than one somebody, when

> she engages in her smear campaigns. I personally believe it is

> emotional abuse on two levels.

, I think you could have left it at " Your nada is always abusing

someone " .

Abuse is what they do and it's the one thing they are very, very good

at. When aren't they splitting at least half the world black?

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

In general, there is often lack of support from the foo. This is,

as I wrote in another post, the main reason I have remained no

contact. No one in my foo will support my position that nada has

been abusive to all of us. And that is invalidating.

As far as your rights - Ah - as a KO you were taught that you don't

have any rights, and so it is hard to feel confident in this area.

You have a right to a respectful environment. Nada trashing someone

is not respectful of your feelings.

Sylvia

> > > >

> > > > Ive been the black sheep too, BP. And when my compassion for

Yeti

> > > > disappeared, I found that standing up to her and telling

everyone in

> > > the

> > > > family the conditions I was under when I did (whatever she

was

> > > bitching

> > > > about) was one of the best things I ever did. The best being

going

> > > NC...

> > > >

> > > > I would suggest a direct approach. Diplomacy doesn't work

with them,

> > > it

> > > > gives them the fodder for the cognitive 'triumphs' that

Sylvia

> > > talked about.

> > > > Venom works much better. Explain to (everyone else who is

listening

> > > to her)

> > > > the exact circumstances, as far as you know them.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Send instant messages to your online friends

> > > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Sylvia and All,

So, you know my blissfully ignorant FOO? It’s been said that youth is

wasted on the wrong people; with BPD, inTELLigence is wasted on the wrong

people, at least in my FOO’s case, and they’re quite a case. I can be,

too, with my BPD-modeled and BPD-adaptation fleas. People usually still

quickly pick up that there’s something “different” about me. Those fleas

used to be so evident that, for example, in an office, I saw people

convening like a gaggle of chickens after meeting or talking with me.

Some evidence indicated that, at least sometimes, those people were

talking about me, and not in a flattering way. This still happens,

apparently less overtly and, maybe, less often. Not that being

“different” justifies such gossiping and smearing. My FOO still takes the

cake in doing this. As a child, I tried a number of times over the years

to assist and/or intervene to stop abuse toward and protect one of my

sibs. As an adult, I’ve made the same efforts about the next generation.

The so-called “adults” have continued to ignore me, so I have to keep

letting go of my normal, healthy, instinctual desire to be a member of a

social group commonly called a “family.” It’s painful, every day. It’s

painful both ways: being a smear target and having to let go of the FOO

because they believe the smearing. I have to let go to survive and live.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- smhtrain2 wrote:

> In general, there is often lack of support from the foo. This is,

> as I wrote in another post, the main reason I have remained no

> contact. No one in my foo will support my position that nada has

> been abusive to all of us. And that is invalidating.

>

> As far as your rights - Ah - as a KO you were taught that you don't

> have any rights, and so it is hard to feel confident in this area.

> You have a right to a respectful environment. Nada trashing someone

> is not respectful of your feelings.

>

> Sylvia

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Ive been the black sheep too, BP. And when my compassion for

> Yeti

> > > > > disappeared, I found that standing up to her and telling

> everyone in

> > > > the

> > > > > family the conditions I was under when I did (whatever she

> was

> > > > bitching

> > > > > about) was one of the best things I ever did. The best being

> going

> > > > NC...

> > > > >

> > > > > I would suggest a direct approach. Diplomacy doesn't work

> with them,

> > > > it

> > > > > gives them the fodder for the cognitive 'triumphs' that

> Sylvia

> > > > talked about.

> > > > > Venom works much better. Explain to (everyone else who is

> listening

> > > > to her)

> > > > > the exact circumstances, as far as you know them.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends

> > > > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Faith, your observation that your nada had a purpose in smearing

others (relieving some of her own negative feeling for

herself)definitely seems to apply to my nada at times. I agree with

you that listening to the smear and not disagreeing feels like

validating nada's view of her target.

>

> Don't know if this will help but this was my situation w/nada

>

> > Have any of you got similar experiences?

> If so, what do you think your rights are in dealing with this I

> think that's maybe

> > part of the reason that I feel invalidated in my desire to do

> > something about it.

>

> I can't figure out what irritates me so much about it and I can't

> really put into words

> > exactly what I think is being violated when my nada insists on this

> > kind of thing. ?

> >

> I think nada denial on reality plays a major factor in nada's pitting

> family against each other. I realized what nada would accuse others

> of doing, was things she had actually done herself. Took me years

> and alot of digging in the past to figure that out. Tons of help

> from my dad and siblings and nada's brother and asking a lot of

> questions about what happened in past and what nada had told me

> etc...

> I think nada has loads of guilt and can't bear it so tries to put

> that burden on others. Tons of emotional manipulation to try

> and " fix " others sins.

> Many years I let it slide until I realized it was not good for anyone

> to let her think I agreed with her slander campaigns. I think it

> validated her when she'd think you'd agree with her and it was not

> getting better, it was out of control. My siblings and I didn't

> speak to each other for many years because we believed her when she'd

> pit us against the other. So I began standing up and confronting

> her ...tough road that one is...I had to make sure someone else was

> with me whenever I was beckoned to come over. I'm now n/c after many

> warnings (2 years of warnings) to stop the manipulations I don't

> know what the future holds, but it doesn't matter. I did what was

> best for me and my families sanity to break away from nada world so

> it won't continue. >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, I have definitely noticed that one of the results my nada seems

to hope for in a smear campaign is to keep family members apart. She

literally freaks out when I go for a visit and spend time w/any other

family member alone and does seem to need to be the " hub. "

And I do think that being " forced " to watch the abuse of family

members is destructive to me. Thanks for reinforcing that for me.

trish

me ways our densensitization

> can be especially hard to detect and overcome because the BP " style "

> of abuse is so often manipulative and subtle. I would say that your

> sense of violation is absolutely accurate, and is a sign of a healthy

> self-protective instinct. And it is a classic trait of adult

> survivors of childhood abuse that we question our " right " to act on

> our self-protective instincts.

>

> Hugs,

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Ive been the black sheep too, BP. And when my compassion for

> Yeti

> > > > > disappeared, I found that standing up to her and telling

> everyone in

> > > > the

> > > > > family the conditions I was under when I did (whatever she was

> > > > bitching

> > > > > about) was one of the best things I ever did. The best being

> going

> > > > NC...

> > > > >

> > > > > I would suggest a direct approach. Diplomacy doesn't work

> with them,

> > > > it

> > > > > gives them the fodder for the cognitive 'triumphs' that Sylvia

> > > > talked about.

> > > > > Venom works much better. Explain to (everyone else who is

> listening

> > > > to her)

> > > > > the exact circumstances, as far as you know them.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends

> > > > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Non-BP, I think that you're right to identify the denial the FOO has

about it's sick relationship with the nada in the family. It would

cost them something. When I decided that there was something wrong

and I needed to do something to help myself, I really had to look at

the way I had adjusted to life with nada and how I had not always

chosen the most functional reactions in dealing with her--far from it!

It was uncomfortable thinking that there was something wrong with the

way I handled myself around my nada and it was uncomfortable

recognizing that my own mother had abused me. It was a very painful

time for me. I was terrified much of the time. So I can understand

to some extent why the FOO is " incapable " of facing the facts. Also,

some members of the FOO have more to loose than others! Some of my

family members actually seem to BENEFIT from their relationship

w/nada! I think that the jumping off point for me was realizing that

I had nothing to loose in challenging my nada and everything to gain.

Trish

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ive been the black sheep too, BP. And when my compassion for

> > Yeti

> > > > > > disappeared, I found that standing up to her and telling

> > everyone in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > family the conditions I was under when I did (whatever she

> > was

> > > > > bitching

> > > > > > about) was one of the best things I ever did. The best being

> > going

> > > > > NC...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would suggest a direct approach. Diplomacy doesn't work

> > with them,

> > > > > it

> > > > > > gives them the fodder for the cognitive 'triumphs' that

> > Sylvia

> > > > > talked about.

> > > > > > Venom works much better. Explain to (everyone else who is

> > listening

> > > > > to her)

> > > > > > the exact circumstances, as far as you know them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends

> > > > > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > __________________________________________________

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Trish wrote:

" Have any of you got similar experiences? If so, what do you think your

rights are in dealing with this? I usually find that if I can put this kind

of thing into words, I have an easier time sticking up for myself. I'd love

to hear what you have to say. "

Here's an excerpt from one of the last posts I sent to BPsis, after she

wrote to bad-mouth dishrag dad's family for not rushing to tell us that one

of our paternal uncles had died.

(Note - I hardly know my paternal relatives because after a stupid argument,

nada & dishrag ignored dishrag's family for more than 30 years. Nada didn't

contact dishrag's family when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and it

was my paternal aunts & uncles - not nada & dishrag - who initiated a

reunion just before dishrag died)

__________________________

" I'm sorry to hear Uncle J died, but I can't blame them for not

calling/writing sooner. We haven't acted like members of the family since

Grampa was alive, so I don't think we deserve to be treated like family. We

didn't attend Uncle H's funeral, or Uncle D's - so I think it's reasonable

for them to assume that we wouldn't attend Uncle J's...so there was no

reason to rush to tell us he'd died.

Sis, I don't want anything more to do with bad feelings re. the Finchams.

I've only heard family history from one point of view (nada's) and I

question both her objectivity and her honesty. So I've decided to assume

that our paternal relatives are nice, decent people who have - in their

opinion - good reasons for doing what they do, and leave it at that. "

___________________________

As was usual when I dared to disagree with BPsis, she never responded and

never brought it up again.

F