Re: Lab questions

December 15, 2006

--- In , " moldcankill " <moldcankill@...>

wrote:

>

> Can anyone tell me (in a way that my broken moldy brain will

> understand) what low levels of VEGF and ADH and High levels of C4A

and

> Leptin mean? I tried reading about it and I think I am more confused

> than when I began. Thank you for all of your help.

>

This is my layman's understanding of what these things mean:

If you have low VEGF, then your tissues don't get enough oxygen, so if

you exercise or do more physical activity than normal, you'll often

have extreme fatigue for up to several days afterwards because you burn

glycogen for energy (since your muscles don't have enough oxygen, they

get the necessary energy from stored supplies) and it takes several

days for your body to replenish that.

When you have low ADH (Anti-diuretic Hormone), your kidneys are getting

rid of water about as fast as you can add it, so you are often very

thirsty and often have to pee alot. If your osmolality is also out of

wack (above the normal range), then a doctor can prescribe a synthetic

hormone that will help with that.

High levels of leptin means that your body is very efficient at storing

rather than burning fat for energy, thus the side effect of high leptin

can be low energy along with being overweight.

My understanding of C4A is that it is a modulator for inflammation -

i.e. high levels mean you have high levels of inflammation. And, that

just makes you overall feel bad and I believe contributes to the

overall flu-like achiness.

B

--who has experienced all these things except for the high leptin

December 15, 2006

Yes I have them. What can be done if anything?

mhbarnes_99 <mary.barnes@...> wrote: --- In

, " moldcankill " <moldcankill@...>

wrote:

>

> Can anyone tell me (in a way that my broken moldy brain will

> understand) what low levels of VEGF and ADH and High levels of C4A

and

> Leptin mean? I tried reading about it and I think I am more confused

> than when I began. Thank you for all of your help.

>

This is my layman's understanding of what these things mean:

If you have low VEGF, then your tissues don't get enough oxygen, so if

you exercise or do more physical activity than normal, you'll often

have extreme fatigue for up to several days afterwards because you burn

glycogen for energy (since your muscles don't have enough oxygen, they

get the necessary energy from stored supplies) and it takes several

days for your body to replenish that.

When you have low ADH (Anti-diuretic Hormone), your kidneys are getting

rid of water about as fast as you can add it, so you are often very

thirsty and often have to pee alot. If your osmolality is also out of

wack (above the normal range), then a doctor can prescribe a synthetic

hormone that will help with that.

High levels of leptin means that your body is very efficient at storing

rather than burning fat for energy, thus the side effect of high leptin

can be low energy along with being overweight.

My understanding of C4A is that it is a modulator for inflammation -

i.e. high levels mean you have high levels of inflammation. And, that

just makes you overall feel bad and I believe contributes to the

overall flu-like achiness.

B

--who has experienced all these things except for the high leptin

December 15, 2006

--- In , Edy Rayfield <edyrayfield@...>

wrote:

>

> Yes I have them. What can be done if anything?

>

This is where Shoemaker's protocol comes in. Taking the CSM over a

period of time and thus removing the toxins should help reduce the

inflammation. My osmolality did get back into the normal range after

a couple months on the CSM, so I didn't need to take the

desmopression, which can be prescribed to increase your ADH.

As well, my C4A has also come into the normal range after 7 months on

the CSM - I think that was a combination of taking the CSM and taking

lots of fish oil on a regular basis. As well, I use grapefruit seed

extract daily which may have anti-inflammatory properties (I was

taking it as it's supposedly a good natural antibiotic and anti-

fungal).

Another thing that may reduce C4A and increase VEGF is the Procrit,

which Shoemaker is currently trialing that's been discussed on this

list previously.

As far as the leptin, I think that's where Actos is supposed to help,

but I don't have any personal experience with that one.

December 16, 2006

Does Dr Shoe say why our bodies get less oxygen? Is it a function

of toxic effects on lung tissue? I don't have lung inflamation but

I have the symptom of needing days to regain my strength after

relatively normal amounts of exercise. INTERESTINGLY to this

subject I went to take a hyperbaric oxygen treatment after alot of

exercise to see if that would help...........I MOVED, and you know

what kind of strength that takes, even though I moved no furniture

and just a bare minimum of things, I was exhausted but could not

sleep AT ALL. I get like this when I 'overdo' things. You would

think the exact opposite. However it like I am going on pure

adrenal since I didn't have real energy and it takes forever

to 'come down' from it. Affect centers around heart which seems

like it just can't relax even though I am not breathing hard. It is

hard to describe. So I went for hyperbaric oxygen treatment and

afterwards my heart felt normal, my eyes which were hurting from

lack of sleep felt better and I went home and fell asleep..then took

it easy next day, so it must have something to do with not being

able to make up that oxygen. I have noticed this and read up on

oxygen alot and also in regards to numerous migraines I got. I

think I posted here that I discussed with my doctor and he suggested

that I just take deep breaths and then *demonstrated* what he meant

by that, by inhaling deeply, like I was a moron or something. I had

read about successful studies of oxygen used to treat migraines. I

mentioned that also but he implied that deep breathing would =

oxygen treatment.

>

>> If you have low VEGF, then your tissues don't get enough oxygen,

so if

> you exercise or do more physical activity than normal, you'll

often

> have extreme

December 16, 2006

>

> Does Dr Shoe say why our bodies get less oxygen? Is it a function

> of toxic effects on lung tissue? I don't have lung inflamation but

> I have the symptom of needing days to regain my strength after

> relatively normal amounts of exercise. INTERESTINGLY to this

> subject I went to take a hyperbaric oxygen treatment after alot of

> exercise to see if that would help...........I MOVED, and you know

> what kind of strength that takes, even though I moved no furniture

> and just a bare minimum of things, I was exhausted but could not

> sleep AT ALL. I get like this when I 'overdo' things. You would

> think the exact opposite. However it like I am going on pure

> adrenal since I didn't have real energy and it takes forever

> to 'come down' from it. Affect centers around heart which seems

> like it just can't relax even though I am not breathing hard. It

is

> hard to describe. So I went for hyperbaric oxygen treatment and

> afterwards my heart felt normal, my eyes which were hurting from

> lack of sleep felt better and I went home and fell asleep..then

took

> it easy next day, so it must have something to do with not being

> able to make up that oxygen. I have noticed this and read up on

> oxygen alot and also in regards to numerous migraines I got. I

> think I posted here that I discussed with my doctor and he

suggested

> that I just take deep breaths and then *demonstrated* what he meant

> by that, by inhaling deeply, like I was a moron or something. I

had

> read about successful studies of oxygen used to treat migraines. I

> mentioned that also but he implied that deep breathing would =

> oxygen treatment.

>

Barb,

I think that the low levels of oxygen are due to the inflammation.

My understanding is that the turning off of the inflammation is

what's broken for certain genotypes. It's these high levels of

inflammation that cause the lung problems (and not the other way

around from my understanding). I don't know that they know why

oxygen levels fall when inflammation increase, but it is known that

happens, per the following:

http://www.aarda.org/infocus_article.php?ID=12

" This much is known: when tissue damage mounts due to prolonged

inflammation, oxygen levels in the damaged area fall. This in turn

leads to increased amounts of adenosine outside cells. Dr. Sitkovsky

theorized that the excess adenosine binds to the adenosine receptors,

which then initiate a chain reaction that slows and eventually stops

inflammation. "

And, if you follow this through, this adenosine that they attribute

to being the thing that controls inflammation has a relationship with

MSH. I found this article, although I can only read the abstract:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-

2826.2003.01116.x?journalCode=jne

But here's results that seem interesting:

" Together, these results suggest that adenosine, acting through A2A

receptors, may modulate the release of á-MSH in the cerebral cortex

and amygdala. "

Now, I'm hypothesizing that since we have chronic inflammation, then

we likely don't have this adenosine doing what it's supposed to do to

release the MSH which may be an additional reason why we usually have

low MSH or this is yet another example of the damage to the

Hypothalamus by the toxins.

It may also be a chicken/egg thing whereby the inflammation increases

the amount of oxygen used, thus decreasing the overall availability

of oxygen for other functions and since our bodies are shutting off

the inflammation, we seem to need more oxygen than normal which would

explain why folks get good results with hyperbaric.

I find it interesting that this adenosine is something that is part

of ATP, which is a key building block for energy in our bodies. This

might also explain why we just don't have normal energy at all. I do

find that I can feel almost normal if I take NADH supplements, which

is something that's produced from the ATP. The only downside for

when taking the NADH supplement is I don't sleep well when I take it,

so I have to be very selective in how often I use it.

Barb, I don't know that this explains your over reactions other than

as you suggest, your adrenals were over-stressed and adding the

oxygen reduces the stress on the adrenals because your body is able

to produce the energy without going into fight mode.

B.

October 5, 2009

Dara,

If I remember correctly, the initial tests that Dr. J did for my son a few years

back were Igenex for Lyme, but Medlab for all the coinfections. I'm not sure

why he did all the coinfections there and we were new to all the Lyme stuff so I

didn't question. I do remember that the medlab tests were very expensive (I

think about $1000) but my insurance didn't cover them, but did reimburse their

portion after the fact. We did have an issue though that my son tested negative

for Mycoplasma Fermentans initially and then after a couple of years and him not

completely recovering, they said they wanted to retest him for that, and they

said the lab they used initially had changed their practices for analyzing for

M. Fermentans about the time that he had been tested, and they were using

robotics instead of people, and since they did that our doctor NEVER got

positive results for this infection from them. I'm thinking that the lab they

used initially for the M. Fermantans was Medlab but I'm not sure so if they are

testing for this, you may want to research it further. My son did test positive

for it the second time around with the different lab they began using and we

adjusted his treatment accordingly and he's doing much better.

I hope this helps.

Patty

[ ] lab questions

Anyone have any experience with Medical Diagnositc Laboratory in New Jersey?

My LLMD ordered some co-infection tests there, and they take my insurance. All

of my other testing was done at Igenex, but he thought they did a good job with

these specific tests.

I took my daughter to a different LLMD who says to only use Igenex. If there

are any tests that are ok to do at another lab that takes my insurance I would

rather do that.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Dara

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06:19:00

October 5, 2009

I liked MDL b/c my daughter got a (+) Lyme PCR, Dr. J told me they triple test

their results on that.

From: darabeth2003 <dara.alewine@...>

Subject: [ ] lab questions

Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 12:13 PM

Anyone have any experience with Medical Diagnositc Laboratory in New Jersey? My

LLMD ordered some co-infection tests there, and they take my insurance.. All of

my other testing was done at Igenex, but he thought they did a good job with

these specific tests.

I took my daughter to a different LLMD who says to only use Igenex. If there are

any tests that are ok to do at another lab that takes my insurance I would

rather do that.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Dara

October 5, 2009

Hi Dara

MDL is very reputable--I am familiar with their lab director-they were the ones

involved at the very beginnings of Bartonella testing and worked with the

prominent Drs about that bacteria--making it known that it does come along with

tick bites. (one of the pioneering Drs is my LLMD and so I am knowledgable of

and was one of the first few patients studied at MDL, re: Bartonella)

Igenex is a bit hyped and a bit controversial--so far theyre reliable but they

have " connections " in and out of Lyme community that make some

uncomfortable.Theyre expensive and as youve pointed out other labs take

insurance, may be cheaper,and yet they do as good a job!!

Finette

Re: [ ] lab questions

I liked MDL b/c my daughter got a (+) Lyme PCR, Dr. J told me they triple test

their results on that.?

October 6, 2009

Patty

are you talking about Medical Diagnostics Lab,calling it " Medlab " since the one

Dara mentioned is abbreviated MDL, not " medlabs " ??

I just dont want all of us to be confused about which lab is which. FWIW our son

went to too and he did NOT use MDL even though we live in NJ and that

wouldve been easy to do.

Since Dara asked about MDL aka Medical Diagnostic Labs its a bit confusing to

see info about " medlabs " . Patty, did the test stationery have a logo of a big

black tick with " legs " forming letters M,D,L ?? thats MDL's logo.