Re: Toxin Detection and Neutralization - Group Suggestions

[Guest guest]

It's really a difficult situation that we are faced with because of the way

the mold contamination occurs and the different molds that produce it.

But I do think you have a very good point in that the situation with

mycotoxins is one that really needs a focused approach, one that is based on

logic.

We have a very difficult situation here, though, because of the expense of

testing for toxins.

What would be EXTREMELY useful would be some way of reducing the cost of

mycotoxin testing and then applying a systematic, standardized methodology

to at least, the testing that we, as members of this group, paid for.

Then we could, in addition to the uses we put the data to personally, we

could also record that data in a database and ideally, record

post-remediation data as well..

I'm especially wondering how the age of a building relates to the potential

for mycotoxin buildup over time, given repeated instances of water incursion

and drying.

You know.. what a difficult task this is for non-scientists.. Why the hell

are we being forced to do this? We shouldn't be.

Clearly, I'm dreaming here as how many of us have the resources, the access

or the energy to do something like that the way that it needs to be done.

Even the scientific organizations that pursue things like this have trouble

getting funding.

Perhaps (CERTAINLY, actually) in the military world there has been research

in this area. You know, with the changes coming next month in Washington,

there is the very real chance that we might be able to successfully frame

this issue as the national security issue it is, and

prevail on the military to release whatever they have that is pertinant to

home, school, and workplace decontamination.

We tend to get overwhelmed by the seeming hopelessness of it all at times

and perhaps in that we don't realize that its always the darkest right

before the dawn, so to speak...

This is an area where there is actually a huge chance for the military

research that all of us pay lots of money for to be extremely useful to

Americans in a way that would also create goodwill for the military at a

time when they need that goodwill.

If any of us have any friends who have connections with the military, or

have a military toxicology background, nows the time to try to do something

with it.

On 12/12/06, smatterchoo2002 <smatterchoo2002@...> wrote:

>

> In dealing with these mycotoxins, I've caught bits and pieces from

> various sources. Is there anywhere which consolidates information

> regarding people's experience with cleaning contaminated items? If

> not, I'd like to suggest that we create a single 'sticky' thread to

> which we can all contribute.

>

> I'm a troubleshooter by trade, and my brother is a world-class

> chemist (who by coincidence, recently discovered he's MCS). I

> believe that if we can consolidate what people here already know and

> feed that into a chemist's brain, that we will wind up with a

> protocol which will help alleviate people's suffering. A previous

> thread suggested that Drs change how they publish their research in

> order to disseminate their information sooner rather than later. I

> suggest that this user community do the same. We are all researchers

> and have something to contribute. This can create a positive

> feedback loop helping the professional researchers direct their

> attention.

>

> Let me start the dataset here:

>

> The two central ideas which seem to determine duration and intensity

> of contamination are porosity and permeability.

>

> For example, metals are neither very porous nor permeable. They seem

> to be the most 'cleanable'.

>

> At the other end of the spectrum are plastics. Very porous and very

> permeable make them very retentive. They also have an attribute

> which makes them very 'sticky' in an electromagnetic sense. Notice

> how trash bags cling to themselves from static electricity - this

> seems to multiply the retention effect.

>

> Textiles are a continuum, with cotton weaves at one end. I haven't

> figured out what's at the other end yet, but I know there's some

> variability in their toxin retention through multiple cleanings.

>

> In summary, I haven't yet found the 'silver bullet' to clean

> everything, but we've only just begun.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are a troubleshooter?

Could you be more specific? What kind of troubleshooter?

Are there any good resources for failure analysis on the net? I am sure that

this is something that is used in legal cases all the time,

but how is it done, say in industry?

What kind of statistics are used in troubleshooting? It seems as if

statistics would be at the root of coming to meaningful conclusions about

the usefulness of various cleaning strategies, but of course, unscrupulous

people lie with statistics all the time too..

I have a friend who is an expert in te use of databases for human rights

work, and he has published quite a few papers on various subjects in that

area.

He would be a good resource, and I know he would be willing to help, but

he's also a VERY busy guy and the work he does is of high importance so I

would not want to present him with half-baked ideas, anything that is done

would need to be fairly well developed first.

But as a statistician he would be able to reality check schemas, etc. very

well.

[Guest guest]

Let's see, where to start...

In re-reading my original message, I noticed that I forgot to mention

my motivation. Just so no one gets the impression I'm a shill

looking for a bunch of free data and/or test subjects, let me set the

record straight:

My wife and 5-yr old moved out of our contaminated house 6 months

ago. Her (wife) sensitivity is increasing to where she is now living

out of weekly hotel rooms because she can't get away from the toxins

for longer than a few days. We're going to see Dr. Shoemaker next

week. The sole intent of my research is to try to minimize the

impact of this on our extended family. It pains me to know that my

daughter can't go see certain members of my family because their

house is contaminated (and she may bring the toxins back to mom), and

I want to at least be able to launder clothes reliably. But in doing

so, I want to make sure that anyone else who wants that information

can have it. No one should have to suffer like this.

Regarding troubleshooting, I'm a network engineer for a global

corporation. One facet of my job is to 'take a step back', then look

at data in aggregate and see the subtle relationships.

About failure analysis and statistical modeling, if someone else sees

an end to which those can be applied, by all means. My current

interest lies in the practical application of the 'detection'

and/or 'removal' concepts. I use the word " research " liberally - not

in the strictest, professional sense of the word, but in a colloquial

manner to describe a group effort to compile our various findings.

My brother as a resource would fit the bill on a number of your other

concerns: he's ex-military, he has access to a large corporation's

chemical research lab and its costly contents, can reach out to other

professionals in his field, and will apply the scientific method to

whatever data is provided.

::segue::

Speaking of data we provide, that's the intent of the original

message: to solicit input from anyone who's done any level of

experimentation (I know you all have) with washing clothes, cleaning

pots and pans, plastics, glass, paper, pictures, effects of different

solvents on different materials, etc.

While I'm optimistic about incremental progress to alleviate

suffering caused by mycotoxins in environments, I'm cynical about

government involvement. If it happens, so be it, but I'm not waiting

for it. And...careful what you wish for. Government recognition

that this is a growing problem would certainly help in some ways, but

it may hinder in others.

Finally, a cautionary note: having an email conversation with my

brother about these toxins apparently met some criteria which alerted

his company's email administrators. I wouldn't be at all surprised

if this board and others like it are monitored routinely. In an era

of touchiness about terrorism, I'm pessimistic about how much data we

could get the government to release regarding their research on

mycotoxins.

And if messages stop coming from me, then you know 'they' got me.

P.S.

In the files section is a document published by the Army in 2004

regarding toxin research, and here's another good one I found

recently:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1018.5/MR1018.5.chap4.htm

l

[Guest guest]

Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center in Lubbock has done quite a bit

of work on mycotoxin detection and removal.

But as far as the practical application of that work to laundering, its

basically bad news that I have for you.

Its very, very hard to get mold out of clothes. Its very, very hard to get

mold out of books. We have been through this all so very many times. I

myself didn't listen to people on here when I moved and brought about 1/3 of

my (expensive O-Reilly, etc.) books when I moved. (I also gave around 2/3 of

them, the older ones - away)

The ones I kept were painstakingly HEPA vacumed and washed repeatedly with

ammonia before they went into storage. Recently, a lot of them were taken

out of storage (I needed them because foolishly I thought I should read them

- I need to try to get work!) and suddenly, I am really sick again. I

realized yesterday that I screwed up, they need to be cleaned again and they

may never be non-reactive for me.

We have a lot of people on here who have extensive empirical knowledge. We

also have people like myself who (at first) thought that maybe I could do it

a little differently and get away with it. What I didn't realize and still

am a bit in denial about is that the more exposure you get, the more

reactive you get, and it takes a long time to get un-reactive - if ever.

The implications of that are extremely difficult on people personally.

I can't even think about getting a normal job in a normal workplace.

Now whenever I go out I have to think, " Will I get sick " ?

When we go into businesses, often I have to turn around and leave because I

can feel that 'something' is making me sick almost immediately. Other times,

I just get very very tired around ten or fifteen minutes and HAVE TO SIT OR

SOMETIMES EVEN LIE DOWN.

Thats how bad it is.

I realize your optimism. I get that way sometimes too.. but honestly, its

not such an easy thing.

If it was, it would have been solved by now.

OTOH, if you have the STAMINA to contribute to a much more far reaching

effort, to dig deeper than just these issues, then there might be some

hope.. someday. But its one of those big issues.. not some little casual

thing that a few months of trying different solutions is going to address..

We all wish it was.. but that isn't the case...

I'm sending you a paper off list that I think is the closest to the question

you are asking available..

On 12/13/06, smatterchoo2002 <smatterchoo2002@...> wrote:

>

> Let's see, where to start...

> In re-reading my original message, I noticed that I forgot to mention

> my motivation. Just so no one gets the impression I'm a shill

> looking for a bunch of free data and/or test subjects, let me set the

> record straight:

> My wife and 5-yr old moved out of our contaminated house 6 months

> ago. Her (wife) sensitivity is increasing to where she is now living

> out of weekly hotel rooms because she can't get away from the toxins

> for longer than a few days. We're going to see Dr. Shoemaker next

> week. The sole intent of my research is to try to minimize the

> impact of this on our extended family. It pains me to know that my

> daughter can't go see certain members of my family because their

> house is contaminated (and she may bring the toxins back to mom), and

> I want to at least be able to launder clothes reliably. But in doing

> so, I want to make sure that anyone else who wants that information

> can have it. No one should have to suffer like this.

>

> Regarding troubleshooting, I'm a network engineer for a global

> corporation. One facet of my job is to 'take a step back', then look

> at data in aggregate and see the subtle relationships.

>

> About failure analysis and statistical modeling, if someone else sees

> an end to which those can be applied, by all means. My current

> interest lies in the practical application of the 'detection'

> and/or 'removal' concepts. I use the word " research " liberally - not

> in the strictest, professional sense of the word, but in a colloquial

> manner to describe a group effort to compile our various findings.

>

> My brother as a resource would fit the bill on a number of your other

> concerns: he's ex-military, he has access to a large corporation's

> chemical research lab and its costly contents, can reach out to other

> professionals in his field, and will apply the scientific method to

> whatever data is provided.

> ::segue::

> Speaking of data we provide, that's the intent of the original

> message: to solicit input from anyone who's done any level of

> experimentation (I know you all have) with washing clothes, cleaning

> pots and pans, plastics, glass, paper, pictures, effects of different

> solvents on different materials, etc.

> While I'm optimistic about incremental progress to alleviate

> suffering caused by mycotoxins in environments, I'm cynical about

> government involvement. If it happens, so be it, but I'm not waiting

> for it. And...careful what you wish for. Government recognition

> that this is a growing problem would certainly help in some ways, but

> it may hinder in others.

>

> Finally, a cautionary note: having an email conversation with my

> brother about these toxins apparently met some criteria which alerted

> his company's email administrators. I wouldn't be at all surprised

> if this board and others like it are monitored routinely. In an era

> of touchiness about terrorism, I'm pessimistic about how much data we

> could get the government to release regarding their research on

> mycotoxins.

>

> And if messages stop coming from me, then you know 'they' got me.

>

>

>

> P.S.

> In the files section is a document published by the Army in 2004

> regarding toxin research, and here's another good one I found

> recently:

> http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1018.5/MR1018.5.chap4.htm

> l

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much. I've read through that paper before, and it's part

of my optimism.

Being an engineer, I tend to split hairs. In your last post, several

places referenced removal of _mold_.

I'm not nearly as interested in removing the mold colonies or spores

as I am in neutralizing the toxins. This health problem is only

marginally related to mold. Fungal colonies produce the spores which

produce the toxins, but it's the toxins which are making people

sick. Ergo, if removal of the spores is difficult/impossible, then

leave them in place but make their presence neutral instead of malign.

(My wife had a scratch test done and she wasn't reactive to molds at

all, even when her toxic sensitivity was high.)

Another distinct source of optimism stems from my conversations with

the chemist. Here is a bit of our last email exchange, after seeing

some models of the molecular structure of the satrotoxin family:

---snip---

IT CAN BE POLYMERIZED. More than one way, too. That means it will be

FIXED to where you polymerized it.

Two approaches - attack the alcohol with pH to make the -OH

susceptible and add a glycol... It WILL polymerize the glycol and the

pendant unprotected OH together into a larger less mobile molecule.

It " might " still be toxic, but it will now be a fixed solid instead

of a mobile oil.

2nd approach, examine the latex resins and drying oils like tung oil,

linseed, for cellulosic character, and susceptibility to borax

(caustic). If borax doesn't hinder hardening of the oil, it will not

only absorb and envelope the satrin, but it will also attempt to

react with the conjugated double bonds on the methylhydroxy end.

These reactive groups are probably a part of what makes it toxic, so

success looks possible.

---snip---

I've read some output of the Texas Tech, and while informative about

the molds themselves, I didn't learn much about how that applied to

the world outside the laboratory. If you have links or references to

things I missed, please share.

Understand, I'm not trying to do this to be able to keep 'stuff'.

The real effort is around how to make sure my daughter can grow up

without having to worry about accidentally contaminating her mom and

making her sick. I'm aware that these toxins are everywhere, in

varying quantities, and that each individual has their own level of

sensitivity (which can change negatively with exposure, and

positively with CSM).

Let me give you one real-world example, and maybe someone can offer

advice:

Wife and daughter are currently together, apart from me.

Mommy takes daughter to friend's house to play.

Two weeks later, Wife and daugher make a 'clean break'. New clothes,

car, living quarters, everything.

Can daughter go back and visit that friend's house? I'm afraid that

the toxins which are currently on her clothes would have shed at that

friend's house and that she will/may pick them back up. Then, when

she goes back to mom, they both would be contaminated again.

Suggestions, input, ideas?

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center in Lubbock has done

quite a bit

> of work on mycotoxin detection and removal.

> But as far as the practical application of that work to laundering,

its

> basically bad news that I have for you.

>

> Its very, very hard to get mold out of clothes. Its very, very hard

to get

> mold out of books. We have been through this all so very many

times. I

> myself didn't listen to people on here when I moved and brought

about 1/3 of

> my (expensive O-Reilly, etc.) books when I moved. (I also gave

around 2/3 of

> them, the older ones - away)

>

> The ones I kept were painstakingly HEPA vacumed and washed

repeatedly with

> ammonia before they went into storage. Recently, a lot of them were

taken

> out of storage (I needed them because foolishly I thought I should

read them

> - I need to try to get work!) and suddenly, I am really sick again.

I

> realized yesterday that I screwed up, they need to be cleaned again

and they

> may never be non-reactive for me.

>

> We have a lot of people on here who have extensive empirical

knowledge. We

> also have people like myself who (at first) thought that maybe I

could do it

> a little differently and get away with it. What I didn't realize

and still

> am a bit in denial about is that the more exposure you get, the more

> reactive you get, and it takes a long time to get un-reactive - if

ever.

>

> The implications of that are extremely difficult on people

personally.

>

> I can't even think about getting a normal job in a normal workplace.

>

> Now whenever I go out I have to think, " Will I get sick " ?

>

> When we go into businesses, often I have to turn around and leave

because I

> can feel that 'something' is making me sick almost immediately.

Other times,

> I just get very very tired around ten or fifteen minutes and HAVE

TO SIT OR

> SOMETIMES EVEN LIE DOWN.

>

> Thats how bad it is.

>

> I realize your optimism. I get that way sometimes too.. but

honestly, its

> not such an easy thing.

>

> If it was, it would have been solved by now.

>

> OTOH, if you have the STAMINA to contribute to a much more far

reaching

> effort, to dig deeper than just these issues, then there might be

some

> hope.. someday. But its one of those big issues.. not some little

casual

> thing that a few months of trying different solutions is going to

address..

>

> We all wish it was.. but that isn't the case...

>

> I'm sending you a paper off list that I think is the closest to the

question

> you are asking available..

>

[Guest guest]

Some of this is complicated info for me but when the daughter goes to

her friends or school maybe she could have a set of clothes for when

she is out. Guess you would have to do your daughters laundry that

she wears outside. Some have done it that way and change clothes

before going into safe home. I guess it is according to how reactive

your wife is with the outside world with mold and chemicals in

products. I am not sure if the daughter's friend's house would have

been contaminated. Someone else will answer that one.

I have so much trouble with mold and fragrances, laundry products,

etc. I have trouble with some people that come into the house and

their laundry is so strong or their deodorant strong, etc. It isn't

my house so people do as they please, and don't really listen to my

problem. Some people walk around with a chemical aroma because there

cologne or whatever is so strong. Not too long ago my mother in law

washed a pair of my husband's pants and I had to put them in a bag

and put them away because we both could barely stand the pants in the

room. Even after I washed them with my safer detergent the pants were

still very strong with fragrance. I have never noticed a moldy

problem from other people or their clothes, but I don't get out as

much because of my illness. I detect mold in fish tanks, or ponds,

or if there is a mold problem in the home from a roof leak, etc. My

daughter was a teenager when I got ill and it was very difficult with

friends, proms, etc. Luckily she didn't get ill like my husband and I

did. I guess I was in the house so much, and my husband gutted a

place trying to make it safe and that is where he got injured with

seizures. We are all different.It is very hard on the kids especially

when you have mold in several places.

> >

> > Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center in Lubbock has done

> quite a bit

> > of work on mycotoxin detection and removal.

> > But as far as the practical application of that work to

laundering,

> its

> > basically bad news that I have for you.

> >

> > Its very, very hard to get mold out of clothes. Its very, very

hard

> to get

> > mold out of books. We have been through this all so very many

> times. I

> > myself didn't listen to people on here when I moved and brought

> about 1/3 of

> > my (expensive O-Reilly, etc.) books when I moved. (I also gave

> around 2/3 of

> > them, the older ones - away)

> >

> > The ones I kept were painstakingly HEPA vacumed and washed

> repeatedly with

> > ammonia before they went into storage. Recently, a lot of them

were

> taken

> > out of storage (I needed them because foolishly I thought I

should

> read them

> > - I need to try to get work!) and suddenly, I am really sick

again.

> I

> > realized yesterday that I screwed up, they need to be cleaned

again

> and they

> > may never be non-reactive for me.

> >

> > We have a lot of people on here who have extensive empirical

> knowledge. We

> > also have people like myself who (at first) thought that maybe I

> could do it

> > a little differently and get away with it. What I didn't realize

> and still

> > am a bit in denial about is that the more exposure you get, the

more

> > reactive you get, and it takes a long time to get un-reactive -

if

> ever.

> >

> > The implications of that are extremely difficult on people

> personally.

> >

> > I can't even think about getting a normal job in a normal

workplace.

> >

> > Now whenever I go out I have to think, " Will I get sick " ?

> >

> > When we go into businesses, often I have to turn around and leave

> because I

> > can feel that 'something' is making me sick almost immediately.

> Other times,

> > I just get very very tired around ten or fifteen minutes and HAVE

> TO SIT OR

> > SOMETIMES EVEN LIE DOWN.

> >

> > Thats how bad it is.

> >

> > I realize your optimism. I get that way sometimes too.. but

> honestly, its

> > not such an easy thing.

> >

> > If it was, it would have been solved by now.

> >

> > OTOH, if you have the STAMINA to contribute to a much more far

> reaching

> > effort, to dig deeper than just these issues, then there might be

> some

> > hope.. someday. But its one of those big issues.. not some little

> casual

> > thing that a few months of trying different solutions is going to

> address..

> >

> > We all wish it was.. but that isn't the case...

> >

> > I'm sending you a paper off list that I think is the closest to

the

> question

> > you are asking available..

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> Let me give you one real-world example, and maybe someone can offer

> advice:

> Wife and daughter are currently together, apart from me.

> Mommy takes daughter to friend's house to play.

> Two weeks later, Wife and daugher make a 'clean break'. New clothes,

> car, living quarters, everything.

>

> Can daughter go back and visit that friend's house? I'm afraid that

> the toxins which are currently on her clothes would have shed at that

> friend's house and that she will/may pick them back up. Then, when

> she goes back to mom, they both would be contaminated again.

>

> Suggestions, input, ideas?

>

This is a very individual thing depending upon how sick your are, your

genotype, which determines how much your body can detox on its own,

etc. My personal opinion is that the sicker you are and the longer

you've been sick, the more sensitive you are and from what you've

said, I would imagine that your wife is going to react to any amount

of toxin. I would think that your daughter would have to change into

clothes that never enter the new home before going to the friend's

house and then shower and change into safe clothes as soon as she gets

home (as a minimum).

I am currently in a very similar situation myself. My kids and I have

moved into a newly remodeled place, with new clothes, furnishings,

etc. Our concern right now is my husband who is still living in the

old house. I was very sick on Sunday when he came to visit us and

spent time in our new house, despite him changing into new, clean

clothes at the new house. It's been mentioned previously on this list

and in offline discussion with others that getting the toxins out of

hair is very difficult, so that may have been what I was reacting to,

as my husband finds all of this quite silly and didn't see showering as

necessary since he had just showered at the other house.

One thing that I have found is that new items that have potentially

been exposed to our old house (e.g., the kids going over there to get

stuff for camping, etc.) don't seem to be a problem for me, provided

they go straight into the washing machine when they get home. It seems

that the length of exposure in the home with toxins impacts the level

of saturation of the item. Based on my experiences, it should be

possible for your daughter to go to friends, provided she changes

(putting the clothes directly in the washer herself) and bathes/showers

immediately upon returning home. However, I've been on the CSM since

February and still am while we're validating the safety of the new

home, so that may indeed be reducing my reactivity since I've got some

toxins continously being removed (but I was also super toxic due to

Lyme, as well as mold toxins).

Be well,

B

[Guest guest]

I sent this as a private email to , and he asked me to continue

this discussion on the board, so here's the email. Regular readers

already know most of these things. I also think it would be very good

to try to compare each other's experiences regarding the removal of

mycotoxins from clothes and objects, and to try to find better ways.

Since we're not rich we can throw away only a limited number of

clothing items and furniture, so better mycotoxin removal techniques

could prove essential for those living with this level of sensitivity.

----------------

Regarding my experience with mycotoxins... I belong to that group of

people which can " feel " or detect if an object is contaminated with

mycotoxins in just a few seconds. The symptoms I feel are as follows:

skin itching/burning, nausea, feeling of tightness in chest/lungs,

headache, memory problems, and if I don't quickly decontaminate

diarrhea and total exhaustion.

All my problems with mycotoxins stem from cross-contamination. I live

in an European country, and it's practically impossible to find a sick

building here - I haven't seen one building which is the original

source of toxic mold and mycotoxins. However, in recent years, people

started to travel for their holidays to other countries where sick

buildings are common (my prime suspect country is Turkey, but it may

not be the only one). When these tourists return from their holidays,

they bring the mycotoxins, mold fragments and spores on their luggage,

clothes etc. These toxins are unbeliveably durable and persistent.

Once they " infect " an object, they can stay potent for months and

probably years in a completely dry environment. This might sound a bit

far-fetched, but I assure you it IS happening and it is making my life

exceedingly miserable. You can search the group for my earlier

messages to read about the details.

The only chemical compound that I found to be effective for

decomposition of mycotoxins is hydrogen peroxide (at least 3% but

7-10% is much more efficient). Later, I did some research on Google on

it, and it turns out that several big companies which claim their

products can decompose trichothecene mycotoxins, actually use hydrogen

peroxide as the main ingredient. H2O2 is not the holy grail, it

probably won't be able to help in all situations and on all materials,

but it's the best thing I found so far. It has its downsides - higher

concentrations applied for a longer time will burn clothes, make holes

in it etc. Paper can be completely destroyed with concentrated H2O2 so

be careful with it. And it is very irritating for the skin.

I had various success rates with it on various materials. Some things

seem to be impossible to decontaminate (e.g. cotton blankets,

trousers, shirts, plastic bank cards and synthetic clothes). On the

otheer hand, I did manage to decontaminate some cotton clothes

(blankets and cotton jackets) by soaking them in 7% H2O2 and borax

prior to classic washing in washing machine.

Perhaps there's a " point of no return " for some of these porous

objects, after the toxins have penetrated deep enough...

If you read the messages in the group, you'll often find

people suggesting the use of ammonia (ammonium hydroxide) for

decomposition of mycotoxins. In my opinion that is very misleading

because ammonia is only used for aflatoxins (and perhaps some

fumonisins). However, these mycotoxins are almost never the problem in

sick buildings, as they cannot enter the body via inhalation or skin

route. They are only dangerous if they are ingested with food. As far

as I understand this, the chief, and most problematic mycotoxins

related to sick buildings are trichothecenes and fumonisins. If they

didn't exist, we wouldn't have any problems with cross-contamination.

The strange thing about hydrogen peroxide is that its usefulnes as a

mycotoxin decomposition agent is not entirely clear. Some sources

claim it has very little to no effect on trichothecenes. Other sources

claim that it can almost completely decompose toxins produced by

Stachybotrys and basically all trichothecenes. Whether this is a

marketing ploy or truth remains to be investigated.

I will mention several URLs that speak in favour of H2O2 for

trichothecene decompostion (some of these URLs are for commercial

products which I do not endorse nor want to promote, I am not

affiliated with them in any way; it's just that I couldn't find this

information at any other place):

1) First, there is one nifty free patent regarding the use of H2O2 as

disinfectant and for mycotoxin decompositon:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6500465.html

Scroll down towards the end of the text... it says that mycotoxins

produced by Stachybotrys chartarum were decomposed with H2O2, and that

after the treatment their concentration was below 0,1 ppm.

2) There's a product called " Structural Decon " . Here are the FAQs for

this product:

http://www.iaqm.com/faq.html

" Structural Decon has demonstrated that it can rapidly neutralize

chemical and biological agents including trichothecene mycotoxins. "

and here is the MSDS and instruction manual for this product:

http://www.iaqm-nh.com/pdf_new/Structural_Decon.pdf

if you look at it, you'll see that the main ingredients are dimethyl

benzyl ammonium chloride (also called benzalkonium chloride which

serves to kill mold), EDTA (not sure what purpose it serves here, can

you ask your brother about this compound?), and hydrogen peroxide

(which is probably the main chemical for mycotoxin decomposition).

3) http://www.scottsliquidgold.com/files/msds/MOLDCONTROL500MSDS.pdf

Almost the same as the previous product - benzalkonium chloride and H2O2.

Btw. When trying to decontaminate an object, it's not a bad idea at

all to apply a substance that kills mold along the mycotoxin

decomposing agent. That's because mycotoxins, in my experience, always

serve as a protective shield for the mold that orginally produced

them. Therefore, you rarely have only pure mycotoxin on contaminatedd

objects. You will usually have objects that are contaminated both with

mycotoxins and mold spores/mold fragments. The strong mycotoxin on the

object will kill all other competing molds and bacteria, so even these

few spores of the toxic mold will continue to produce the mycotoxin if

they are not destroyed as well. In my experience borax mixed with H2O2

is a very good combo for both killing mold and decomposition of

mycotoxins.

I attached (*) one study that deals with mycotoxins in food and feed.

The table 2 on page four is particularly interesing as it shows which

chemicals are used for decomposition of different mycotoxins in food.

According to this table, H2O2 is good only for one type of Fumonisin

(FB1) and aflatoxins. Why they don't mention other trichothecenes? If

H2O2 is effective only against fumonisins, perhaps I am dealing with

them, not with trichothecenes?

Sodium bisulfite is frequently mentioned for decomposition of DON

(Vomitoxin) and Calcium hydroxide monomethylamine is used for

decomposition of T-2 toxin. It's all data related to food, but I guess

that if it can be applied to food, it might work on objects too.

I hope this was of some help.

Can I ask you to ask your brother chemist several questions:

1) Is hydrogen peroxide likely to be efficient in decomposition of

mycotoxins, and if the answer is yes, then what mycotoxins (can it

completely degrade all trichothecenes as some of these URLs I

mentioned seem to claim?). Since I get relatively good results with

it, what are the most likely mycotoxins that I am dealing with -

fumonisins or trichothecenes?

2) Would sodium bisulfite be effective on objects contaminated with

trichothecene mycotoxins? Is it safe for humans?

3) the same question for calcium hydroxide monomethylamine. Also,

where one can obtain these second two substances?

-Branislav

(*) the file that was attached can be downloaded from this address:

http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak_download & id_clanak_jezik=1192

once saved on the hard drive, you have to manually add the extension

..pdf because it's missing for some reason.

------------------------

My brother as a resource would fit the bill on a number of your other

concerns: he's ex-military, he has access to a large corporation's

chemical research lab and its costly contents, can reach out to other

professionals in his field, and will apply the scientific method to

whatever data is provided.

::segue::

Speaking of data we provide, that's the intent of the original

message: to solicit input from anyone who's done any level of

experimentation (I know you all have) with washing clothes, cleaning

pots and pans, plastics, glass, paper, pictures, effects of different

solvents on different materials, etc.

While I'm optimistic about incremental progress to alleviate

suffering caused by mycotoxins in environments, I'm cynical about

government involvement. If it happens, so be it, but I'm not waiting

for it. And...careful what you wish for. Government recognition

that this is a growing problem would certainly help in some ways, but

it may hinder in others.

[Guest guest]

just want to add a few things, people,if your ill,care about yourself

first, some get so ill before they get out that they dont have the

strenght to deal with anything. if you have someone that isn't sick

maybe they can help you try to save some belongings, i walked away

from most of mine, material things are what they are. don't try to

save replaceable things like couches,mattresses, it's not worth it,

they can be replaced. there is info. out there that mycotoxins can be

washed out of cottons easier than other materials. as far as papers

and books, you might as well toss them, copy some papers if you need

to but books are a problem, i don't know if the microwave thing

works, i did clean some books on the outside but i cant open them and

they are still stored in a plastic container waiting to just get

tossed.mold and myco's are everywhere, the more sensative you are the

hardier advoidance is, true advoidance is not possable, only

advoidence to a lesser degree is, hopefully something you can

tolerate, it's a full time job haveing this illness and trying to

make your enviroment tolerable. sometimes you have to just let things

go and put your health before anything else. the most important thing

people need to know is not to bring contaminated items with

them.store them and worry about it later if you have to, just don't

take them with you.

>

> I sent this as a private email to , and he asked me to

continue

> this discussion on the board, so here's the email. Regular readers

> already know most of these things. I also think it would be very

good

> to try to compare each other's experiences regarding the removal of

> mycotoxins from clothes and objects, and to try to find better ways.

> Since we're not rich we can throw away only a limited number of

> clothing items and furniture, so better mycotoxin removal techniques

> could prove essential for those living with this level of

sensitivity.

>

>

> ----------------

> Regarding my experience with mycotoxins... I belong to that group of

> people which can " feel " or detect if an object is contaminated with

> mycotoxins in just a few seconds. The symptoms I feel are as

follows:

> skin itching/burning, nausea, feeling of tightness in chest/lungs,

> headache, memory problems, and if I don't quickly decontaminate

> diarrhea and total exhaustion.

>

> All my problems with mycotoxins stem from cross-contamination. I

live

> in an European country, and it's practically impossible to find a

sick

> building here - I haven't seen one building which is the original

> source of toxic mold and mycotoxins. However, in recent years,

people

> started to travel for their holidays to other countries where sick

> buildings are common (my prime suspect country is Turkey, but it may

> not be the only one). When these tourists return from their

holidays,

> they bring the mycotoxins, mold fragments and spores on their

luggage,

> clothes etc. These toxins are unbeliveably durable and persistent.

> Once they " infect " an object, they can stay potent for months and

> probably years in a completely dry environment. This might sound a

bit

> far-fetched, but I assure you it IS happening and it is making my

life

> exceedingly miserable. You can search the group for my earlier

> messages to read about the details.

>

>

> The only chemical compound that I found to be effective for

> decomposition of mycotoxins is hydrogen peroxide (at least 3% but

> 7-10% is much more efficient). Later, I did some research on Google

on

> it, and it turns out that several big companies which claim their

> products can decompose trichothecene mycotoxins, actually use

hydrogen

> peroxide as the main ingredient. H2O2 is not the holy grail, it

> probably won't be able to help in all situations and on all

materials,

> but it's the best thing I found so far. It has its downsides -

higher

> concentrations applied for a longer time will burn clothes, make

holes

> in it etc. Paper can be completely destroyed with concentrated H2O2

so

> be careful with it. And it is very irritating for the skin.

> I had various success rates with it on various materials. Some

things

> seem to be impossible to decontaminate (e.g. cotton blankets,

> trousers, shirts, plastic bank cards and synthetic clothes). On the

> otheer hand, I did manage to decontaminate some cotton clothes

> (blankets and cotton jackets) by soaking them in 7% H2O2 and borax

> prior to classic washing in washing machine.

>

> Perhaps there's a " point of no return " for some of these porous

> objects, after the toxins have penetrated deep enough...

>

>

> If you read the messages in the group, you'll often

find

> people suggesting the use of ammonia (ammonium hydroxide) for

> decomposition of mycotoxins. In my opinion that is very misleading

> because ammonia is only used for aflatoxins (and perhaps some

> fumonisins). However, these mycotoxins are almost never the problem

in

> sick buildings, as they cannot enter the body via inhalation or skin

> route. They are only dangerous if they are ingested with food. As

far

> as I understand this, the chief, and most problematic mycotoxins

> related to sick buildings are trichothecenes and fumonisins. If they

> didn't exist, we wouldn't have any problems with cross-

contamination.

>

>

> The strange thing about hydrogen peroxide is that its usefulnes as a

> mycotoxin decomposition agent is not entirely clear. Some sources

> claim it has very little to no effect on trichothecenes. Other

sources

> claim that it can almost completely decompose toxins produced by

> Stachybotrys and basically all trichothecenes. Whether this is a

> marketing ploy or truth remains to be investigated.

>

> I will mention several URLs that speak in favour of H2O2 for

> trichothecene decompostion (some of these URLs are for commercial

> products which I do not endorse nor want to promote, I am not

> affiliated with them in any way; it's just that I couldn't find this

> information at any other place):

>

> 1) First, there is one nifty free patent regarding the use of H2O2

as

> disinfectant and for mycotoxin decompositon:

>

> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6500465.html

>

> Scroll down towards the end of the text... it says that mycotoxins

> produced by Stachybotrys chartarum were decomposed with H2O2, and

that

> after the treatment their concentration was below 0,1 ppm.

>

> 2) There's a product called " Structural Decon " . Here are the FAQs

for

> this product:

>

> http://www.iaqm.com/faq.html

>

> " Structural Decon has demonstrated that it can rapidly neutralize

> chemical and biological agents including trichothecene mycotoxins. "

>

> and here is the MSDS and instruction manual for this product:

>

> http://www.iaqm-nh.com/pdf_new/Structural_Decon.pdf

>

> if you look at it, you'll see that the main ingredients are dimethyl

> benzyl ammonium chloride (also called benzalkonium chloride which

> serves to kill mold), EDTA (not sure what purpose it serves here,

can

> you ask your brother about this compound?), and hydrogen peroxide

> (which is probably the main chemical for mycotoxin decomposition).

>

> 3) http://www.scottsliquidgold.com/files/msds/MOLDCONTROL500MSDS.pdf

>

> Almost the same as the previous product - benzalkonium chloride and

H2O2.

>

>

> Btw. When trying to decontaminate an object, it's not a bad idea at

> all to apply a substance that kills mold along the mycotoxin

> decomposing agent. That's because mycotoxins, in my experience,

always

> serve as a protective shield for the mold that orginally produced

> them. Therefore, you rarely have only pure mycotoxin on

contaminatedd

> objects. You will usually have objects that are contaminated both

with

> mycotoxins and mold spores/mold fragments. The strong mycotoxin on

the

> object will kill all other competing molds and bacteria, so even

these

> few spores of the toxic mold will continue to produce the mycotoxin

if

> they are not destroyed as well. In my experience borax mixed with

H2O2

> is a very good combo for both killing mold and decomposition of

> mycotoxins.

>

> I attached (*) one study that deals with mycotoxins in food and

feed.

> The table 2 on page four is particularly interesing as it shows

which

> chemicals are used for decomposition of different mycotoxins in

food.

> According to this table, H2O2 is good only for one type of Fumonisin

> (FB1) and aflatoxins. Why they don't mention other trichothecenes?

If

> H2O2 is effective only against fumonisins, perhaps I am dealing with

> them, not with trichothecenes?

>

>

> Sodium bisulfite is frequently mentioned for decomposition of DON

> (Vomitoxin) and Calcium hydroxide monomethylamine is used for

> decomposition of T-2 toxin. It's all data related to food, but I

guess

> that if it can be applied to food, it might work on objects too.

>

> I hope this was of some help.

>

>

>

> Can I ask you to ask your brother chemist several questions:

>

> 1) Is hydrogen peroxide likely to be efficient in decomposition of

> mycotoxins, and if the answer is yes, then what mycotoxins (can it

> completely degrade all trichothecenes as some of these URLs I

> mentioned seem to claim?). Since I get relatively good results with

> it, what are the most likely mycotoxins that I am dealing with -

> fumonisins or trichothecenes?

>

>

> 2) Would sodium bisulfite be effective on objects contaminated with

> trichothecene mycotoxins? Is it safe for humans?

>

> 3) the same question for calcium hydroxide monomethylamine. Also,

> where one can obtain these second two substances?

>

>

> -Branislav

>

> (*) the file that was attached can be downloaded from this address:

> http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?

show=clanak_download & id_clanak_jezik=1192

>

> once saved on the hard drive, you have to manually add the extension

> .pdf because it's missing for some reason.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------

> My brother as a resource would fit the bill on a number of your

other

> concerns: he's ex-military, he has access to a large corporation's

> chemical research lab and its costly contents, can reach out to

other

> professionals in his field, and will apply the scientific method to

> whatever data is provided.

> ::segue::

> Speaking of data we provide, that's the intent of the original

> message: to solicit input from anyone who's done any level of

> experimentation (I know you all have) with washing clothes, cleaning

> pots and pans, plastics, glass, paper, pictures, effects of

different

> solvents on different materials, etc.

> While I'm optimistic about incremental progress to alleviate

> suffering caused by mycotoxins in environments, I'm cynical about

> government involvement. If it happens, so be it, but I'm not waiting

> for it. And...careful what you wish for. Government recognition

> that this is a growing problem would certainly help in some ways,

but

> it may hinder in others.

>

[Guest guest]

The pathologist who examined my tissue from

surgery who studies tricothecenes, says ammonia

denatures tricothecenes. I have not done any

research into this though.

[Guest guest]

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Bratislav,

>

> You say " There is one nifty free patent online "

>

> The patent is a public document, and as such, any and all patents

>can be obtained from the PTO because they are a matter of public

>record. However, they are not " free " as a patent is a enforceable

> " right " to be the only one

> to market a particular technology for a period of 17 years. Or more.

Livesimply,

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought it was totally free. But,

nevertheless, I am not interested in their thermofogging techniques,

but only whether hydrogen peroxide can decompose trichothecene

mycotoxins. That's all I'm interested in, and that is why I quoted the

said article and all other URLs.

And please, realize, I DO NOT advocate the use of any of these

compounds! The original poster (smatterchoo2002) asked the group about

our experiences with mycotoxin decomposition agents. I answered him.

That's all.

> What is 0,1 ppm ? If you look at the potency of trichothecene

>mycotoxins, you'll realize that 0.1 ppm is NOT SUCH A LOW

>CONCENTRATION at all. In fact, its a concentration not unusual to

>encounter in indoor mold situations.

> I HAVE been and I would NOT want to be AGAIN in a situation in

>which there

> was 0.1 parts per million of trichothecenes..

>

> NO THANK YOU...

Again, the original poster asked a question. I answered the question

from my own experience.

If you re-read my post, you'll realize that I am not advocating the

use of any compound, product or whatever. I'm simply sharing my

experience. I am not convinced at all that H2O2 can denature higher

concentrations of trichothecenes, especially not porous objects. If

you reread my post, you'll realize I asked the original poster to ask

his brother which of the compounds I mentioned are likely to have some

effect as mycotoxin decomposition agents. I also asked: if I am

getting good results with H2O2, then with what mycotoxins I am most

likely dealing with.

> You know, Bratislav, People here have lots of real world experience

>with mold but they are not scientists. So they are unlikely to call

>you on this.

> (After all, you use so many big words.)

Why are you so angry with me? What big words did I use? I have never

ever recommended the use of these products or compounds for anyone or

any purpose. READ MY POST AGAIN! I was simply stating the MSDSs of

these products because they seem to claim that their products can

decompose trichothecene mycotoxins. I tried to determine what compound

in their product might play that part. I concluded that it must be

H2O2. What's wrong with that?

> Neither am I. I am not saying that some of these formulas may work

>to do some things in some situations. BUT.

> That is NOT the way they are marketed and none of them are new and

>none of them have not been tried a million times before.

I am not interested in their *biocidal* properties. I am not

interested in them as products at all, for that matter. I'll never

order them. As it has been said many times before, killing mold is not

enough. If the mold is visible it must be physically removed with

detergents, objects must be dried etc. (if you wish to remediate

something)

HOWEVER, there are several of us here on this board who are so

reactive / sensitive to mycotoxins that even AFTER the mold has long

been removed and is not visible at all, it can still harm us and cause

all the symptoms. Detergents and the usual washing as is recommended

by EPA and other scientists here just doesn't cut it for us. I have

some objects that I only touched while being contaminated. These

objects never grew visible mold, yet are causing me great troubles. I

can wash them with detergent until the doom's day, they won't be any

better.

That's where the mycotoxins decompositon agents step in. I'd like to

know more about them, and I was intrigued by the original post.

I managed to decontaminate some wooden objects and clothes with a

mixture of concentrated (7%) H2O2 and borax. That's my experience, I

am not saying it will work for anyone else.

If you didn't understand what I was trying to say, I'll repeat it once

again: I am NOT recommending the use of any particular product,

formula or substance for serious mold infestations. If someone has a

big mold problem in his house, by all means get out of there or call a

professional remediator.

My post was aimed at determining what chemical compounds are most

likely to decompose trichothecene mycotoxins and fumonisins on objects

that were cross-contaminated, and which were not necessarily in the

proximity of the visible mold. Cross-contamination can happen even if

someone who was in a sick building just passes by you. So, my post was

meant for those who are very sensitive and routinely cross-contaminate

their belongings a with relatively low-level concentration of

mycotoxins, and who want to find the best way to decontaminate them

(if possible).

[Guest guest]

Bratslav,

Good. I'm glad you're not a guerilla biocide marketeer or a person who wants

to get free help with developing a

proprietary product! Those are two testy issues for me!

I also appreciate your suggestions and like you, I have a vested interest in

finding out to decontaminate posessions,

being that a significant portion of my posessions are still

semi-contaminated. We've had to replace ALL of our furniture, and

almost everyting else, but I still have a lot of books, as I said.

Have you read Lessig's Free Culture book?

http://www.free-culture.cc/freecontent/

He explains a lot of what I was trying to explain MUCH more eloquenty than I

ever could..

On 12/15/06, Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Bratislav,

> >

> > You say " There is one nifty free patent online "

> >

> > The patent is a public document, and as such, any and all patents

> >can be obtained from the PTO because they are a matter of public

> >record. However, they are not " free " as a patent is a enforceable

> > " right " to be the only one

> > to market a particular technology for a period of 17 years. Or more.

>

> Livesimply,

>

> Thank you for clearing that up. I thought it was totally free. But,

> nevertheless, I am not interested in their thermofogging techniques,

> but only whether hydrogen peroxide can decompose trichothecene

> mycotoxins. That's all I'm interested in, and that is why I quoted the

> said article and all other URLs.

>

> And please, realize, I DO NOT advocate the use of any of these

> compounds! The original poster (smatterchoo2002) asked the group about

> our experiences with mycotoxin decomposition agents. I answered him.

> That's all.

>

> > What is 0,1 ppm ? If you look at the potency of trichothecene

> >mycotoxins, you'll realize that 0.1 ppm is NOT SUCH A LOW

> >CONCENTRATION at all. In fact, its a concentration not unusual to

> >encounter in indoor mold situations.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Your pathologist is correct but there is more you can know.

Denaturing has a general meaning and sometimes a more specific one.

Generally it just means that the protein, toxin, enzyme, etc,...loses

their effectiveness. Since there is sometimes more than one way to

denature, there is confusion about what the word means. It's very

important that you understand this because some methods of denaturing

are reversible.

Most enzymes and many proteins are shape dependent to accomplish their

function. Toxins don't always have this dependency, but they can. But

many can also regain their folded configuration after being denatured,

especially small compact molecules like many toxins are. Egg albumin is

a monstrously large protein and so it can't reverse it's water

dependent gellation configuration once heated to gel.

Proteins and enzymes are often denatured by heating. This causes loss

of shape by refolding or unfolding . If an enzyme loses it's " effective

shape " it will also lose it's activity. And a protein loses it's

reactivity or structure. Like cooking egg albumin for irreversible

protein denaturing. Gelatin is a protein that denatures with heat and

renatures when you cool back down, (if you don't dehydrate it and burn

it). So it is considered a reversible denaturing. Also, changing pH

(acid/alkali balance) can ruin a molecule's folding and thus it's

shape.

If you wash toxins with ammonia, it will not only help to lift and

solvate the sticky oily toxins from what they are sticking to, they may

also lose their toxic edge... while they are in the ammonia. This is

denaturing. Some may return to their toxic status after drying out

again. So use something to immobilize them and wash them down the

drain. That's what soap is supposed to do, but there are many things

that augment the rinsing action of detergents. Corn Cob powder is one

often used in dry laundry powders, but it may leave itself as a trace

level food for the next colony since it is cellulose.

My quick exam of some of the tricothecine molecule shapes leads me to

believe that they don't fold (much?) and are not shape dependent. But

some could lose their activity in acid or alkali. So denaturing should

mean losing their effectiveness by losing some of the chemistry

functional groups that make them toxic. So if your pathologist is

correct, that would tend to suggest that they are being inactivated in

another way than shape loss, but my caution to you is it might be

reversible.

The good news is that ammonia probably does at least two things,

softens and lifts the oily film the surface it is on, and denatures the

toxin - at least temporarily until you have rinsed them away. If we can

guess the mechanism of the denaturing, we can probably offer it another

molecule to react with and immobilize or solubilize it away. Do you

know which of the many tricothecines are problematic for you. I know

that's an almost impossible question - but to pick a starting place the

best thing to do is listen to the person who has the problem.

Zcat

BTW, " denatured ethyl alcohol " is a not really denatured. It is still

active. They borrowed the term thinking it would make folks less

interested in trying it. It worked.

>

> The pathologist who examined my tissue from

> surgery who studies tricothecenes, says ammonia

> denatures tricothecenes. I have not done any

> research into this though.

>

[Guest guest]

You brought up a few good points. I think that a lot of people probably

confuse the action of solvents like alcohols with the action of chemicals

that can break down a toxin's chemical bonds, like beach, lye, hydrogen

peroxide, etc. (strong bases)

They both can be dangerous in different ways. For example, a solvent might

be great at removing (by dissolving) a toxin from the surface of nonporous

objects but then that toxin will remain in solution in the solvent and if

the solvent is not then, washed away, the solvent may end up evaporating,

leaving an area of HIGH concentration of the toxin behind.

There is also a danger with solvents that the solvent could act as a means

for the toxin to be absorbed through the skin more efficiently than when it

was dry. When cleaning objects that have gotten coated by mold toxins in

very moldy situations, this is a very real danger. So whenever you are using

any liquid to clean known toxinogenic mold situation, people should wear

thick rubber gloves. And ensure that the area is well ventilated, preferably

with strong fans...blowing the air outside..

Strong bases are very caustic (duh!) and they can also create toxic gases

like cholorine gas through chemical reactions with some things..

Never spray them -the vapor can get into your lungs. Use them wet on

sponges, damp towels, etc. With gloves.

With mold and mycotoxins, the act of scrubbing with soap is at least as

valuable if not more valuable than what else is in the mix..

The physical removal of the moldy material is the most important thing. No

liquid will inactivate all mycotoxins and most liquids wont penetrate deeply

into say, wood.. Obviously, mold colonizes things (its a filamentous

fungi..duh..)

so the moldy material needs to be removed completely..

On 12/16/06, zcat1956 <zcat1956@...> wrote:

>

> Barb,

> Your pathologist is correct but there is more you can know.

> Denaturing has a general meaning and sometimes a more specific one.

> Generally it just means that the protein, toxin, enzyme, etc,...loses

> their effectiveness. Since there is sometimes more than one way to

> denature, there is confusion about what the word means. It's very

> important that you understand this because some methods of denaturing

> are reversible.

> Most enzymes and many proteins are shape dependent to accomplish their

> function. Toxins don't always have this dependency, but they can. But

> many can also regain their folded configuration after being denatured,

> especially small compact molecules like many toxins are. Egg albumin is

> a monstrously large protein and so it can't reverse it's water

> dependent gellation configuration once heated to gel.

> Proteins and enzymes are often denatured by heating. This causes loss

> of shape by refolding or unfolding . If an enzyme loses it's " effective

> shape " it will also lose it's activity. And a protein loses it's

> reactivity or structure. Like cooking egg albumin for irreversible

> protein denaturing. Gelatin is a protein that denatures with heat and

> renatures when you cool back down, (if you don't dehydrate it and burn

> it). So it is considered a reversible denaturing. Also, changing pH

> (acid/alkali balance) can ruin a molecule's folding and thus it's

> shape.

>

> If you wash toxins with ammonia, it will not only help to lift and

> solvate the sticky oily toxins from what they are sticking to, they may

> also lose their toxic edge... while they are in the ammonia. This is

> denaturing. Some may return to their toxic status after drying out

> again. So use something to immobilize them and wash them down the

> drain. That's what soap is supposed to do, but there are many things

> that augment the rinsing action of detergents. Corn Cob powder is one

> often used in dry laundry powders, but it may leave itself as a trace

> level food for the next colony since it is cellulose.

>

> My quick exam of some of the tricothecine molecule shapes leads me to

> believe that they don't fold (much?) and are not shape dependent. But

> some could lose their activity in acid or alkali. So denaturing should

> mean losing their effectiveness by losing some of the chemistry

> functional groups that make them toxic. So if your pathologist is

> correct, that would tend to suggest that they are being inactivated in

> another way than shape loss, but my caution to you is it might be

> reversible.

> The good news is that ammonia probably does at least two things,

> softens and lifts the oily film the surface it is on, and denatures the

> toxin - at least temporarily until you have rinsed them away. If we can

> guess the mechanism of the denaturing, we can probably offer it another

> molecule to react with and immobilize or solubilize it away. Do you

> know which of the many tricothecines are problematic for you. I know

> that's an almost impossible question - but to pick a starting place the

> best thing to do is listen to the person who has the problem.

> Zcat

>

> BTW, " denatured ethyl alcohol " is a not really denatured. It is still

> active. They borrowed the term thinking it would make folks less

> interested in trying it. It worked.

>

>

> >

> > The pathologist who examined my tissue from

> > surgery who studies tricothecenes, says ammonia

> > denatures tricothecenes. I have not done any

> > research into this though.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, and this is VERY important, the area that has been cleaned with

soap and 1% bleach or whatever, needs to be rinsed off well afterward

so that no bleach or other chemical residue remains behind. for the

reasons described above.

Othewise, many of these chemicals could end up being as damaging to

health as the mold or mold toxins are..

They could end up persisting in the environment for a long time, and

causing a big cleanup bill.

There is no substitute for physical removal of the mold .. (scrubbing, cleaning)

Mold dust left inside of wall cavities will cause health problems..

See the crawlspace paper at http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2003/isbn9512267756/

(articles 6 and 5 are the ones you want) for a discussion of why its

important to find the sources of hidden mold inside of the walls of

wooden buildings..

[Guest guest]

Hi Zcat, you sound pretty knowledgeable. Are you new

member? ...not that existing members are not knowledgeable...lol!

Anyway, I do not know which tricothecenes have been a problem for

me. I just have a fairly high amount of tricothecenes in urine

sample a few years ago when I first took sick (and surgeon found

beginning cancer cells incidentally). A second test of

tricothecenes in urine showed negligible amount so help from this

group and going to mold doctors and my own reading, all these things

have made progress for me with tricothecenes. I've changed diet,

environment, air at home, taken detoxifiers like CSM, etc etc.

I believe I got tricothecenes from chronic systemic Candidas which I

got treatment for finally last year. Pathologist says that Candidas

can make tricothecenes in your body....I THINK, or mycotoxins in

body, but I think he said tricothecenes. ANYWAY, other than that

main contaminant found in home was aspergillus (but no aflotoxins in

urine now and none tested for earlier but lots of antibodies to it

in my blood..abnormally high amount of antibodies to all toxins in

blood tests so I've had plenty of exposure (living in an old house I

guess), workplace is okay. I have abnormally high antibodies to

stachy but never found in house but probably was/is there some

place, and also Fusarium, which has been caught at home but not in

high numbers. Lots of mucor sp in summertime, common fungus but can

be infectious in people already sick. However I don't know one

tricothecene from another.

--- In , " zcat1956 " <zcat1956@...>

wrote:

>

> Barb,

> Your pathologist is correct but there is more you can know.

>

[Guest guest]

Besides the new and few homes being built with concrete, aren't all

buildings wooden...single family homes, apartments, etc. not office

buildings??? Point I'm interested in is idea that maybe finding an

apartment in a high rise might be good for me...? However walls of

individual rooms will be drywall no doubt.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

>> (articles 6 and 5 are the ones you want) for a discussion of why its

> important to find the sources of hidden mold inside of the walls of

> wooden buildings..

>

[Guest guest]

There are lots of different kinds of construction used around the world but

here in the US most of us live at least in wood frame buildings that have

hollow spaces inside of the walls and even though they are supposed to be

sealed for fire resistance the reality is that there are often intentional

and also unintentional paths through the walls..(wires, pipes, cracks, and

also plain holes that were never addressed)

The experiments linked at the bottom of the discussion at the

http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2003/isbn9512267756/

URL are interesting because they analyzed the flow of particles through an

atypically well sealed (IMO) wood structure and concluded that wood

structures *cannot* be fully sealed, especially to smaller particles.

(fungal fragments, etc.) Its not possible with wood using current building

methods.

And this, if I am remembering correctly, was in a structure built

specifically for the test (to be tight) the buildings we actually live in

have far more holes.. and things like wind, the stack effect, changes in

pressure between inside and outside and a zillion other things drive the air

movement.

Thats why biocides, etc. will never be a substitute for thourough cleaning.

Any spaces inside of walls where mold has grown wil be source of mold dust,

potentially for years, unless its physically cleaned out.

" Magic mold-killing liquids " might be able to help with

cleanup/detoxification but the #1 issue will always be eliminating the cause

of the mold growth (ie the moisture source) and the #2 issue is the

necessary finding (often thats difficult) and physical removal of the mold

and the mold dust accumulation which could be years worth of mold dust..

There aren't any shortcuts..

On 12/16/06, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> Besides the new and few homes being built with concrete, aren't all

> buildings wooden...single family homes, apartments, etc. not office

> buildings??? Point I'm interested in is idea that maybe finding an

> apartment in a high rise might be good for me...? However walls of

> individual rooms will be drywall no doubt.

>

>

> >

> >> (articles 6 and 5 are the ones you want) for a discussion of why its

> > important to find the sources of hidden mold inside of the walls of

> > wooden buildings..

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think that the sheer variety of different mycotoxins really defies solving

the problems via some kind of 'decontamination' method.

Basically, fungi are chemical factories that have been fine tuned by

millions of years of evolution to convert organic materials into themselves

AND chemicals to kill other forms of growth, both other fungi and bacteria,

etc.

The varieties of mycotoxins (really, any biologically active substance that

alters biochemical processes has a potential of acting as a toxin.) defies

the 'silver bullet' approach. The best you can hope for is to be able to

address a general category of toxicity and then, only on the amount of toxic

material that is met with the adequate strength of decontamination chemical

and then - if both are removed.

Some mycotoxins are subtle.. for example, they act as sex hormones.. etc.

Its a very difficult problem to address because of the sheer number of

biological variables.

[Guest guest]

Re: ammonia and tricothecenes

He only deals with tricothecenes and has been used by Dr Rae Dallas

Clinic even though he is not in Dallas and also does autopsies for

court cases involving mold. He is a scientist so I'm sure he just

isn't going on a guess.

>

> I think your pathologist must have made a mistake about this. Perhaps

> he thought about aflatoxins and ochratoxins?

>

> I have read many scientific manuals and studies about decomposition

of

> various mycotoxins, but I haven't found one which mentiones that

> trichothecenes can be deactivated with ammonia.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Branis, they do mention T-2 toxins, so they are

referring to tricothecenes in article you quoted.

They say according to their studies on a

particular 'feed', right?, that ammoniation

appears to be not as effective, but doesn't say

is ineffective, but that is this particular study

on particular types of crops to determine what to

feed to hogs it sounds. Anyway, still good point

as to whether there are other things that are

better, so I will ask him. Interestingly, they

put ascorbic acid which Dr Marinkovich recommends

for detoxing internally and to wash vegetables

and fruits, etc with or hydrogen peroxide to wash

veggies and fruits but perhaps on his part may be

considering that ascorbic acid is safe to take

internally and has other health advantages, or he

has read 'other' studies. They don't seem to

agree frequently.

>>>Branis wrote:

Since they do mention ammoniation for other

mycotoxins, it doesn't

make sense to omit ammonia when it comes to

trichothecenes. The

logical deduction is that it's probably totally

ineffective for this

group of toxins.

-Branislav

[Guest guest]

Re: ammonia

Since toxin is described as oily film, it would

seem that ammonia would be good to 'remove' film

and flush away. In feed, that may not be

possible to remove the film, so topic may be

deactivating it. However as zcat suggested, it

is important to flush well with water and soap so

all ammonia is gone, since after item dries, film

may settle back on to article even if suspended

for awhile in the ammonia solution.

[Guest guest]

This figure of 0.1 ppm caught my eye since results of my urinalysis

by Dr Dennis Hooper in Dallas had tricothecenes in my urine at 0.9

ppm and Dr Rae said that was negligible. I was 0.0 for other toxin

in urinalysis done by him.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Bratislav,

>

> What is 0.1 ppm ? If you look at the potency of trichothecene

mycotoxins,

> you'll realize that 0.1 ppm is NOT SUCH A LOW CONCENTRATION at

all. In fact,

> its a concentration not unusual to encounter in indoor mold

situations.

>

> I HAVE been and I would NOT want to be AGAIN in a situation in

which there

> was 0.1 parts per million of trichothecenes..

>

> NO THANK YOU...

>

>