Re: Re: Negative ion vs ozone

[Guest guest]

KC,

Thanks for re-posting the info. Yes, we need to be reminded

occasionally and new members need to see the information.

If nothing else, consider that ozone is one of the major pollutants

outdoors responsible for a variety of respiratory problems including

increased visits to emergency rooms. Why would ozone indoors be any

different? How could dangerous ozone outdoors suddenly become not

only safe indoors but theraputic? If this were true then the best

advice I could give is on high pollution days with elevated ozone

levels is open your doors and windows and bring in the pollution!

Does that make sense? Next, what is the difference between ozone from

" natural " outdoor pollution and " artificial " ozone from a machine?

Nothing. Ozone is ozone is ozone. Finally, ozone is O3 which acts

vastly different than oxygen which is O2.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> & Carl, thanks.

>

> Since there are many new members on the board I guess this needs to

> be discussed every now and then. The pros and cons of ozone and

> ionizers/negative ions. Hopefully I don't confuse anything here. For

> those that are not aware ozone should only be used in an unoccupied

> space. The salesmen of these products are very slick and promise

> you the world.

>

> The research the salesmen provides you doesn't really mean squat,

> especially if you are not informed who funded this research and

> without doing plenty of research on your own, which many of us have.

> I am not convienced that ozone has any benefits when it comes to

> inhalation and until then I wouldn't even consider it to be used in

> an occcupied space.

>

> There are too many articles/research stating it can cause permanent

> respitatory negative effects. Am I 100% convienced that ozone is

> more than capable of causing this damage, no. But I am not willing

> to take any chances with ozone until further research becomes

> available. My wife and too many others on this group already have

> been diagnosed with asthma, RADS, COPD, Interstitial Lung Disease,

> etc., why would you even be willing to take the slightest chance of

> causing further damage to your lungs by another inhalant or

> pollutant. Who is to say when the amount of ozone inhaled is too

> much? If it does cause damage, good luck proving it, especially with

> every thing else you have been exposed to.

>

> I have just received an email from a member that had experienced

> just this from ozone.

>

> " Hi KC,

> From what I can tell getting to see her once a week now, her

> cognitive function is back to where it was before the ozone fiasco.

> I was using an ozone machine in a basement room to detox paper

> towels etc. It was on low, but because we do not have a heat

> exchanger and have a tight house, the ozone built up and made us

> sick. It took some time to do this. "

>

> This says it all.... I will also post some responses from many

> professionals on their personal opinions and the dangers of ozone.

> , I know you were talking about ions, but I do believe this all

> goes hand and hand. So I don't want to really confuse the two.

>

> KC

>

>

> From: " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

> Date: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:29 pm

> Subject: Re: []^ Ozone educational web sites

>

>

> This is my last comment on this ozone discussion: Ozone is not

> enriched oxygen. Ozone is a pollutant. The two have different

> properties.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----------------

> From: " Jim H. White " <systemsa@...>

> Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:20 pm

> Subject: Re: [iequality] IAQ in central ac systems systemsa@...

> iequality/message/3299

>

> Ozone generators and/or ozone should never be used in occupied

> spaces as it

> does lung damage even at low concentrations. Any employee

> satisfaction can

> be due to damage smell sensors in the nasal passages, not in a real

> improvement. See Health Canada

> (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/cps/publications/ozone.htm

> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/cps/publications/ozone_qa.htm) and

> the US

> EPA (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

> http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/airclean.html) sites for reasons why you

> should

> not use ozone indoors.

> Jim H. White SSAL

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---------

>

> From: Jeff May <Jeff@...>

> Date: Thu Oct 7, 2004 10:31 pm

> Subject: Re: Ozone for killing mold

>

>

> 1. Common indoor molds (Penicillium, Aspergillus, Cladosporium, etc.)

> are NOT wood-destroying organisms (many cannot even digest

> cellulose),

> so they do not consume wood in our houses. Even Stachybotrys, which

> can

> be cellulolytic, does not destroy wood; these molds are called

> microfungi. Brown rots and white rots (mushroom-forming fungi or

> macrofungi) destroy wood, digesting either cellulose, lignin or

> both..

> Though there are outdoor (and indoor) spores in the air, mold is not

> all

> around us and in every room (unless in a very problem environment).

>

> 4. As Jim Holland noted in a previous e-mail, FDA-approved ozone

> generators do NOT inhibit the growth of fungi or even kill spores. On

> the other hand, many ozone generators create concentrations of ozone

> above the FDA limit of .05 ppm. (Anyone with an ionizer or ozone

> generator concerned about ozone concentrations can purchase a two-

> test

> kit from IQAir for about $8.)

>

> 5. Filtration is the most effective means to remove aerosolized

> particulates.

>

> 6. Air purifiers may remove spores from the air, but they do NOT

> control

> mold. As you noted, the only way to control mold growth is to control

> relative humidity and water. It is foolish to spend money on any

> type of

> air purifier without eliminating the obvious sources of spores first.

>

> Jeff May

> Author, " The Mold Survival Guide "

> s Hopkins University Press

>

> >1. Our focus should first be protecting ourselves from the effects

> of

> mold spores... and secondly protecting out home from mold... We must

> remember that mold to grow must consume cellulose thus mold in a

> home is

> slowly consuming the wood from which the house was built.. Mold is

> all

> around us and in every room... What affects us is a high

> concentration

> of mold spores; at a certain level we become affected... Good

> ventilation and controlled humidity

> are important... A sealed building invites mold development.

>

> >4. Ozone generators can inhibit growth of fungi/mold.. The mustiness

> of a mildewed room can be controlled/eliminated by ozone generators..

>

> >5. Ion generators electrify the air and make it difficult for mold

> spores to float thus making it somewhat difficult for the eyes and

> nose

> to be troubled by the " spore dust " ..

>

> >6. Some air purifiers work and work well at controlling mold but

> many

> do not.... I'd only buy one with a satisfaction guarantee where you

> get

> your money back within 20 days if it doesn't work to your

> satisfaction...

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------

>

> From: RLLIPSEY87@...

> Date: Wed May 28, 2003 8:53 am

> Subject: Re: [] Digest Number 1636

>

>

>

> Ozone is a toxic chemical whether it is produced naturally in a

> thunderstorm or

> produced by ozonators or " air purifiers " (or sold by any other

> name) .

>

> Ozone is an OSHA regulated toxic chemical which is 500 times

> more toxic than carbon monoxide (CO) that kills hundreds of people

> each year. The federal air standard for ozone is only 0.1 ppm while

> it is 50 ppm for CO. Ozone attacks mucous membranes, ie the lungs,

> and causes chronic respiratory disease.

>

> NIOSH has published that ozone is not very effective in killing

> mold or bacteria. Ozone is not " controversial " . It is toxic and

> dangerous and not effective in controlling mold or bacteria and

> should never be used in a room with people present, even to remove

> odors ie smoke damage odors.

>

>

> Dr. L. Lipsey

> Professor and Toxicologist

> University of North Florida,

> ---OSHA HazMat Cert.

> U. of Florida Med. Ctr, Jax

> Poison Control Center Board

> CV--Toxicology And Environmental Health Assoc

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ------------------

>

> From: RLLIPSEY87@...

> Date: Tue Sep 6, 2005 8:42 am

> Subject: Re: [] Digest Number 2563 RLLIPSEY87@...

>

> All the talk about Ozone machines on this site concern me.

>

> OZONE is relatively ineffective against mold but very effective

> against

> odors according to NIOSH, US Public Health Service. They may be

> called Ionizing

>

> machines or even air cleaners or 100 different names as dealers are

> trying to

> hide the fact that they are nothing by ozone generators. NEVER allow

> these

> machines to be used with people present in offices or homes. You

> never know

> just how much ozone they are actually emitting. I have served as an

> expert

> witness where these companies were sued.

>

> OZONE is also 500 times more toxic than carbon monoxide gas and 100

> times

> more toxic than hydrogen cyanide gas used in Nazi concentration

> camps (NIOSH

> Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards, 1997 comparing OSHA

> PEL's )..............so

> why use these machines in homes?

>

> Ultrasound bug killers are in the same class, or lack of class, in

> that

> mosquitos do NOT hear ultrasound, nor do cockroaches, so why should

> ultrasound

> machines drive them away. I put on a debate at the national meeting

> of the

> Entomological Society of America many years ago in Detroit with EPA

> officers

> present to hear first hand that those machines are absolutely

> useless...........and the EPA officers commented that they cannot

> protect the

> public from

> harmless and useless devices and " let the buyer beware " .

>

> Dr. L. Lipsey ( 904 ) 398-2168

> Toxicologist and Instructor

> University of North Florida, HazMat/OSHA

> Univ. Fla. Medical Center Jax, Poison Control Board

> Fla. Comm. College Jax, Institute of Occ. Safety & Health

> www.richardlipsey.com

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----------------------

>

> Professor Shaughnessy, University of Tulsa

> Docent Aino Nevalainen, KTL

> Ulla Haverinen-Shaughnessy, PhD

> -shaughnessy@...

>

> Shaughnessy is program manager for the Indoor Air Pollution

> Research Center at the University of Tulsa. He oversees IAQ training

> efforts for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and serves as a

> consultant to the Consumer Product Safety Commission on its review

> of ozone-generating air cleaners

>

>

> International Society of Indoor Air Quality and Climate (ISIAQ)

>

> Secretary, Shaughnessy

>

>

> J. Shaughnessy, Ph.D., received his Ph.D. in Chemical

> Engineering from the University of Tulsa. He has served as Program

> Director of IAQ Research at the University of Tulsa since 1987. He

> has taught and conducted research abroad in locations including

> Singapore, China, Australia, Philippines, and South Africa. He has

> published extensively on indoor air with respect to his research and

> studies. Dr. Shaughnessy has worked on U.S.EPA grant projects since

> 1990 encompassing issues such as training development, course

> delivery and outreach, schools investigations, and implementation of

> the Tools for Schools Program. His interests are primarily in

> particulate research, air cleaner evaluation, indoor chemistry,

> school studies, flooring studies, asthma/housing research, and

> studies related to resolution and remediation of bioaerosol-related

> problems. He served on the ACGIH Bioaerosols Committee from 1996

> through December, 2003 and contributed to the writing of the 1999

> ACGIH " Bioaerosols Assessment and Control " Document. He is the

> primary author of two chapters of the book pertaining to prevention

> and control, and remediation. He was a primary task force member and

> moderator for the recent 2003 ACGIH-sponsored Symposium on Mold

> Remediation. He assisted in the development of IICRC's S-520

> document on mold remediation, serving on the Standards Committee and

> the S-520 Editing Committee. He was appointed in September, 2003 to

> the Oklahoma legislative task force on mold, and is currently

> developing recommendations to the legislature on mold-related

> legislation. He has recently been invited (December, 2003) by the

> American Society of Microbiology (Washington, DC) to participate,

> with a select group of 6 coauthors, in developing an informational

> brochure on addressing mold in the indoor environment, for the

> purpose of formulating reasonable legislation in the U.S. Congress.

> He has recently been appointed (Jan, 2004) by AIHA to the

> Management/Editorial Committee overseeing the development of

> extensive new guidance related to best practices in addressing the

> evaluation, assessment and remediation of mold in the indoor

> environment. He is also assisting the NYC DOH on new guidance that

> is being promulgated (January, 2004) related to worker protection in

> mold remediation situations. He has recently been appointed

> (December, 2003) for a three year term to the Board of Directors for

> the International Society on Indoor Air Quality (ISIAQ).

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> -------------

>

> Subject: Aerotech Laboratories, IAQ Tech Tip #62: Ozone Generators

> and IAQ

> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:47:29 -0700

>

> Ozone Generators and IAQ

> With the considerable recent media attention focused on the issues

> of indoor air quality, microbial contaminants in particular, ozone

> is once again being touted as a remedy for all manner of indoor air

> quality concerns. Marketing literature from distributors of ozone

> generators boast claims of eliminating microbial contaminants

> through the use of ozone. One website claims " Ozone helps kill mold

> and mold odors with large ozone dose shock treatments " and " Ozone

> may be the only way to save your home from deadly mold " . The

> propaganda goes as far as claiming that ozone destroys mold leaving

> only oxygen, hydrogen and carbon dioxide. These are the kind of

> unsubstantiated claims that led to a $1.49 million civil penalty

> against Alpine Industries in April of 2001 and a Court Order to

> cease making health claims for its ozone generators. A recent study

> has demonstrated that gas phase ozone is ineffective in reducing the

> viability of Penicillium spores on building materials at levels as

> high as 9 parts per million (ppm), levels that are much higher than

> those attainable under field conditions (Appl.Occup.Environ.Hyg. 12

> (8), August 1997). Recent studies have also implicated a synergistic

> effect between fungal spores and ozone and increased symptoms of

> asthma in asthma patients using an inhaler on an as-needed basis

> (Am.J.Respir.Crit.Care.Med. 154(3 Pt 1):633-41, Sept. 1996).

> The U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) limits

> ozone exposure in industrial settings to 0.1 ppm over an eight hour

> day, six days per week. The Food and Drug Administration has set a

> limit of 0.05 ppm for the ozone generated from electronic air

> cleaners used as medical devices. The Environmental Protection

> Agency has stated:

>

> Available evidence shows that, at concentrations that do not exceed

> public health standards, ozone is generally ineffective in

> controlling indoor air pollution. The concentration of ozone would

> have to greatly exceed health standards to be effective in removing

> most indoor air contaminants

>

> To read the entire EPA article please visit " Ozone Generators that

> are Sold as Air Cleaners "

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---------------------

> [iequality] Ionizing air cleaners

>

>

> Does anyone know of research into effects of ion generating air

> cleaning devices on respiratory health / asthma?

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> " Jim H. White " <systemsa@...>

> fourbrownpaws

>

> Re: [iequality] Ionizing air cleaners

>

>

> Smogwatcher

> Almost all of these are just ozone machines renamed. ozone kills

> lung tissue and makes asthma worse.

>

> Why are you considering one of these nefarious machine?

>

> See the California publications on ozone machines in occupied

> dwellings. In Canada, Health Canada also strongly recommends against

> them. The US EPA is against them, but not quite as vehemently.

> Jim H. White System Science Consulting

>

> ================================================

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> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes this is true. You can always count on KC and Sharon to explain something

further so that new members and old can understand something they may not be

familiar with. Or had forgotten. Especially since it soooooo hard to find an

air cleaner that does not omit ozone. They all seem to.

Thanx KC and Sharon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[iequality] Ionizing air cleaners

>

>

> Does anyone know of research into effects of ion generating air

> cleaning devices on respiratory health / asthma?

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------

>

> " Jim H. White " <systemsa@...>

> fourbrownpaws

>

> Re: [iequality] Ionizing air cleaners

>

>

> Smogwatcher

> Almost all of these are just ozone machines renamed. ozone kills

> lung tissue and makes asthma worse.

>

> Why are you considering one of these nefarious machine?

>

> See the California publications on ozone machines in occupied

> dwellings. In Canada, Health Canada also strongly recommends against

> them. The US EPA is against them, but not quite as vehemently.

> Jim H. White System Science Consulting

>

> ================================================

>

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> > >

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>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>