Advice on major moisture incursion in newly built 'healthy home'

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I?m new to the list after having a huge moisture catastrophe with our newly

built healthy home. I have MCS and am hypersensitive to molds. We had a healthy

home built that we've lived in for 2 years.

I could use some feedback on:

1. the mold tests we?ve had done

2. testing for mycotoxins

3. advice on proceeding with more deconstruction versus starting to reconstruct

our house

The problem: We had a vented roof system installed that failed a month ago b/c

it was both designed and installed incorrectly. The roofer has agreed that he's

at fault. The roof filled with snow and when the weather warmed, it all melted

into the ceiling. I found the initial leak at the end of a 40-degree day (the

previous day had also been above freezing); before that it was freezing.

We evacuated ourselves and ALL of our stuff immediately. I lost everything to a

mold exposure in a rental home 10 or so years ago, so I didn?t want that to

happen again. To note, after really crashing from exposure to room deodorizers

in 2001, I officially was diagnosed with multiple chemical sensitivity. Molds

and fragrances are my two major triggers.

Our builder got on it immediately with heat, fans, mold consultants w. infrared

camera and moisture meters, etc. The entire ceiling and some interior walls were

opened up to dry everything out. They followed the moisture down and opened up

everything to get it to dry out. All the Icynene (a healthier foam insulation)

in the ceiling was removed b/c some of it had absorbed water. Icynene holds

water but cannot grow mold. At this point, the surfaces/exposed wood and the air

are very dry: between 10-12 percent rH.

I did smell some mold a few weeks before in a specific corner of the dining room

by a window and they did find evidence of mold growth on a redwood sill plate

under a window right there, which was immediately removed. Bulk mold tests of

that piece showed nothing, since it had been sitting outside in the sun/wind.

1. We?ve had two rounds of tests taken. Mold counts are much lower in the second

round of tests. No stachy has been found. What is your experience with this

level of mold? (See second test). Are there other tests we should get done,

both for my health and if we end up going to court?

Noted spots on wood will be treated and sealed in (what they haven?t been able

to just cut out). House will be HEPA vac?d (walls, etc.) and wiped and air

scrubbed **before** and **after** reconstruction. What else do you recommend?

Initial mold tests evaluated by Environmental Microbiology labs:

SPORE TRAP on 1.18.07

--in living room: penicillium/aspergillus: 1230 spores/m3 with raw ct of 92

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 13 spores/m3 with raw of 1

other brown: 13 spores/m3 with raw of 1

--in front bedroom: cladosporium: 53 spores/m3 with raw of 4

pen/asp: 267 spores/m3 with raw of 20

--in back bedroom: cladosporium: 213 spores/m3 with raw of 16

pen/asp: 53 spores/m3 with raw of 4

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 27 spores/m3 with raw of 2

DIRECT MICROSCOPIC EXAM REPORT (WET MOUNT)

--of 5 samples taken, 1 showed mold growth of cladosporium: a 1+ on scale of 1-4

--2 showed ?normal trappings?

--2 showed no mold spores detected

**Mold tests re-done_2.7.07**

SPORE TRAP

--living room (I think): basidiospores: 53 spores/m3 with raw ct of 4

chaetomium: 13 sp/m3 with raw of 1

cladosporium: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 13 sp.m3 with raw of 1

--front bedroom: cladosporium: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4 (same as above)

--back bedroom: other brown: 13 sp/m3 with raw of 1

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 27 sp/m3 with raw of 2

trichocladium: 13 sp/m3 with raw of 1

--loft: alternaria: 27 sp/m3 with raw of 2

cladosporium: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4

pen/asp: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 27 sp/m3 with raw of 2

DIRECT MICROSCOPIC EXAM

--3 samples taken: 1 showed mold growth: 2+ cladosporium

1 showed normal trappings

1 showed no mold spores detected (this was from the Icynene insulation)

2. Is there any way to get a reliable test for mycotoxins without it costing an

arm and a leg? I read about gas chromatography/mass spectrometry. ?? We?re in

the Boulder/Denver area.

I also think I should get tested for mold and mycotoxins, so I have a ?before?

and ?after? in case I need it. What tests would you recommend?

I saw the info on the Geffcken v. D?, 2006 DJDAR 3657 case where

Immunosciences tests and IBT tests were thrown out.

3. Open up all walls or not? Immediate moisture from this episode was tracked

with infrared photos and moisture meters. Everything wet or suspected to be wet

was opened up ASAP and dried out. The whole ceiling was taken down and a few

interior walls were opened up. Little or no moisture was found in most of the

opened up walls. But I am concerned that if this had happened before (but not

in a high enough quantity to be a visible leak), there may be unopened walls in

which there is mold.

However, they DIDN?T find visible mold upon opening the other walls and ceiling,

so that suggests the other walls are probably OK. However, one mold remediator

who has been up there, and who has worked with people w. hypersensitivities to

molds, recommended tearing out ALL the rest of the walls (taking it down to

studs) to get the house back to ?pre-loss condition.?

That would be a huge strain on us b/c we don?t really have a great place to live

for the next 6 months or however long it takes. However, if we put it all back

together and I feel worse in the house, then we have a bigger nightmare.

Is there a way to test the walls we haven't opened up? We have interior walls

that are hollow, which we could put holes in and have air tested (is that

enough?). But what about exterior walls that contain insulation? (We have wood

framing and the Icynene, then a layer of vapor barrier (Tu Tuff 4) over all of

that and then the drywall and paint).

Thanks so much for any and all advice, comments, etc.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Welcome to Sickbuildings. We are always happy to help victims who need it, and

it sounds like you may need some help. Most here will shy away from giving

advice in this particular circumstance because of the fact that you have

mentioned, this may become a law suit. However, let me give some guidance.

Hopefully, it will help you find the answers you need.

I have looked at your test results and see mold is still present. Also, some

very unpleasant mold that you should not be living with. If mold is present it

would lead me to believe there is still a problem in your home. I didn't see

you mention anything about having the HVAC cleaned, duct work, appliances.

These would all be very crucial things to have cleaned by a professional

remediation company.

You also didn't mention if the company doing the cleaning are trained and

certified by any accredited organizations. This would also be very crucial, to

ensure it is properly done.

Try getting in contact w/a professional from www.iaqa.org. You can find

professionals in your area who can help you out. Most are certified, trained

and active in the industry. They can answer questions, look at what has been

done, see if it has been done properly, what other steps were maybe missed, and

how to proceed. I wouldn't start tearing out walls until I spoke w/someone who

knew exactly what they were doing. If you already have a

qualified/certified/licensed remediation company, it might help to get a second

opinion.

Good luck,

[] Advice on major moisture incursion in newly built

'healthy home'

Hi everyone,

I?m new to the list after having a huge moisture catastrophe with our newly

built healthy home. I have MCS and am hypersensitive to molds. We had a healthy

home built that we've lived in for 2 years.

I could use some feedback on:

1. the mold tests we?ve had done

2. testing for mycotoxins

3. advice on proceeding with more deconstruction versus starting to

reconstruct our house

The problem: We had a vented roof system installed that failed a month ago b/c

it was both designed and installed incorrectly. The roofer has agreed that he's

at fault. The roof filled with snow and when the weather warmed, it all melted

into the ceiling. I found the initial leak at the end of a 40-degree day (the

previous day had also been above freezing); before that it was freezing.

We evacuated ourselves and ALL of our stuff immediately. I lost everything to

a mold exposure in a rental home 10 or so years ago, so I didn?t want that to

happen again. To note, after really crashing from exposure to room deodorizers

in 2001, I officially was diagnosed with multiple chemical sensitivity. Molds

and fragrances are my two major triggers.

Our builder got on it immediately with heat, fans, mold consultants w.

infrared camera and moisture meters, etc. The entire ceiling and some interior

walls were opened up to dry everything out. They followed the moisture down and

opened up everything to get it to dry out. All the Icynene (a healthier foam

insulation) in the ceiling was removed b/c some of it had absorbed water.

Icynene holds water but cannot grow mold. At this point, the surfaces/exposed

wood and the air are very dry: between 10-12 percent rH.

I did smell some mold a few weeks before in a specific corner of the dining

room by a window and they did find evidence of mold growth on a redwood sill

plate under a window right there, which was immediately removed. Bulk mold tests

of that piece showed nothing, since it had been sitting outside in the sun/wind.

1. We?ve had two rounds of tests taken. Mold counts are much lower in the

second round of tests. No stachy has been found. What is your experience with

this level of mold? (See second test). Are there other tests we should get done,

both for my health and if we end up going to court?

Noted spots on wood will be treated and sealed in (what they haven?t been able

to just cut out). House will be HEPA vac?d (walls, etc.) and wiped and air

scrubbed **before** and **after** reconstruction. What else do you recommend?

Initial mold tests evaluated by Environmental Microbiology labs:

SPORE TRAP on 1.18.07

--in living room: penicillium/aspergillus: 1230 spores/m3 with raw ct of 92

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 13 spores/m3 with raw of 1

other brown: 13 spores/m3 with raw of 1

--in front bedroom: cladosporium: 53 spores/m3 with raw of 4

pen/asp: 267 spores/m3 with raw of 20

--in back bedroom: cladosporium: 213 spores/m3 with raw of 16

pen/asp: 53 spores/m3 with raw of 4

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 27 spores/m3 with raw of 2

DIRECT MICROSCOPIC EXAM REPORT (WET MOUNT)

--of 5 samples taken, 1 showed mold growth of cladosporium: a 1+ on scale of

1-4

--2 showed ?normal trappings?

--2 showed no mold spores detected

**Mold tests re-done_2.7.07**

SPORE TRAP

--living room (I think): basidiospores: 53 spores/m3 with raw ct of 4

chaetomium: 13 sp/m3 with raw of 1

cladosporium: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 13 sp.m3 with raw of 1

--front bedroom: cladosporium: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4 (same as above)

--back bedroom: other brown: 13 sp/m3 with raw of 1

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 27 sp/m3 with raw of 2

trichocladium: 13 sp/m3 with raw of 1

--loft: alternaria: 27 sp/m3 with raw of 2

cladosporium: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4

pen/asp: 53 sp/m3 with raw of 4

smuts, periconia, myxomycetes: 27 sp/m3 with raw of 2

DIRECT MICROSCOPIC EXAM

--3 samples taken: 1 showed mold growth: 2+ cladosporium

1 showed normal trappings

1 showed no mold spores detected (this was from the Icynene insulation)

2. Is there any way to get a reliable test for mycotoxins without it costing

an arm and a leg? I read about gas chromatography/mass spectrometry. ?? We?re in

the Boulder/Denver area.

I also think I should get tested for mold and mycotoxins, so I have a ?before?

and ?after? in case I need it. What tests would you recommend?

I saw the info on the Geffcken v. D?, 2006 DJDAR 3657 case where

Immunosciences tests and IBT tests were thrown out.

3. Open up all walls or not? Immediate moisture from this episode was tracked

with infrared photos and moisture meters. Everything wet or suspected to be wet

was opened up ASAP and dried out. The whole ceiling was taken down and a few

interior walls were opened up. Little or no moisture was found in most of the

opened up walls. But I am concerned that if this had happened before (but not in

a high enough quantity to be a visible leak), there may be unopened walls in

which there is mold.

However, they DIDN?T find visible mold upon opening the other walls and

ceiling, so that suggests the other walls are probably OK. However, one mold

remediator who has been up there, and who has worked with people w.

hypersensitivities to molds, recommended tearing out ALL the rest of the walls

(taking it down to studs) to get the house back to ?pre-loss condition.?

That would be a huge strain on us b/c we don?t really have a great place to

live for the next 6 months or however long it takes. However, if we put it all

back together and I feel worse in the house, then we have a bigger nightmare.

Is there a way to test the walls we haven't opened up? We have interior walls

that are hollow, which we could put holes in and have air tested (is that

enough?). But what about exterior walls that contain insulation? (We have wood

framing and the Icynene, then a layer of vapor barrier (Tu Tuff 4) over all of

that and then the drywall and paint).

Thanks so much for any and all advice, comments, etc.