ERMI (Environmental Relative Moldiness Index)

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this metric and the

methodology or methodologies used to generate this index? Someone

recently suggested this type of testing to me and I need more info. On

the face it seems that it may be useful, especially when combined with

tape lifts or similar from obvious or suspected problem areas.

Thanks,

SJH

[Guest guest]

SJH,

This method was develped by Vesper and others at EPA and was

presented at the IAQA conference in Orlando in October 2005. It is

new enough that there isn't a good body of information and experience

to be comfortable, at least for me. When is it most likely to be

representative of the exposure of people and when should it not be

used?

It's intent is to be used INSTEAD of tape lifts and other

conventional methods because those " conventional " methods are not

only grossly inaccurate but usually misinterpreted in a manner to

support a positiion.

Another alternative is a long term PCR sample. Like ERMI, a single

sample is much more expensive but may be much cheaper and more

accurate in the long run. I just don't know yet and neither does

anybody else. Yet.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Hi,

>

> Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this metric and the

> methodology or methodologies used to generate this index? Someone

> recently suggested this type of testing to me and I need more info. On

> the face it seems that it may be useful, especially when combined with

> tape lifts or similar from obvious or suspected problem areas.

>

> Thanks,

> SJH

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Am I reading here what I think / hope that I'm reading in that you're being

cautious because

its new but you think that inherently, it has a much better chance of being

representative than

spore testing - especially air spore testing, because of the built in

extended time window it

captures and its ability to capture and work with even the smaller

particles, unlike the cartridges which

just let the smaller spores and particles through and microscopy which can't

distinguish down to the species level of so many?

In other words that you're being guardedly optimistic?

I think that the combination of this new QPCR method and a separate high

volume air sampling for mycotoxins

via some impingement sampling method would be a good way to test a space

with reasonable certainty and

might be available as a bundle at some future date for under $500.

That would be a real winner.

Here's something I would add. I for one would want to do these two tests

while using negative air pressure, *to draw any

loose material out from inside the walls*

> SJH,

>

> This method was develped by Vesper and others at EPA and was

> presented at the IAQA conference in Orlando in October 2005. It is

> new enough that there isn't a good body of information and experience

> to be comfortable, at least for me. When is it most likely to be

> representative of the exposure of people and when should it not be

> used?

>

> It's intent is to be used INSTEAD of tape lifts and other

> conventional methods because those " conventional " methods are not

> only grossly inaccurate but usually misinterpreted in a manner to

> support a positiion.

>

> Another alternative is a long term PCR sample. Like ERMI, a single

> sample is much more expensive but may be much cheaper and more

> accurate in the long run. I just don't know yet and neither does

> anybody else. Yet.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Cautiously optimistic is a good description of my position.

Especially since ERMI results, like all others, are subject to

interpretation.

The biggest interpretion is whether or not the results support a

claim of health effects from exposure. Our adversaries will still

claim that no matter what the results from whatever method, there is

no scientific proof that mold causes anything beyond upper

respiratory effects (ACOEM et al). Until there is a Permissable

Exposure Level (PEL) according to OSHA at

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/pel/ or as a regulatory limit there will be

no force of law.

In my opinion, do not hold your breath on a PEL because of the

individuality of reaction and the multiplicity of reactions for each

individual. For those reasons, and others, there are those who

believe there will never be a PEL without first developing a method

of measuring susceptibility (long time away or impossible). Also,

OSHA applies only to workers (not even the owners).

However, I believe ERMI and others will eventually be utilized in

some situations as an improved tool for obtaining better information

for understanding and guidance. But not legal proof.

Final comment. Even with regulations that currently exist for well

known dangers and toxics such as lead based paint, asbestos, radon,

carbon monoxide, etc, the PEL is intended to protect the majority of

the general public, not those more sensitive like many of us.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> Am I reading here what I think / hope that I'm reading in that you're being

> cautious because

> its new but you think that inherently, it has a much better chance of being

> representative than

> spore testing - especially air spore testing, because of the built in

> extended time window it

> captures and its ability to capture and work with even the smaller

> particles, unlike the cartridges which

> just let the smaller spores and particles through and microscopy which can't

> distinguish down to the species level of so many?

>

> In other words that you're being guardedly optimistic?

>

> I think that the combination of this new QPCR method and a separate high

> volume air sampling for mycotoxins

> via some impingement sampling method would be a good way to test a space

> with reasonable certainty and

> might be available as a bundle at some future date for under $500.

>

> That would be a real winner.

>

> Here's something I would add. I for one would want to do these two tests

> while using negative air pressure, *to draw any

> loose material out from inside the walls*

>

> > SJH,

> >

> > This method was develped by Vesper and others at EPA and was

> > presented at the IAQA conference in Orlando in October 2005. It is

> > new enough that there isn't a good body of information and experience

> > to be comfortable, at least for me. When is it most likely to be

> > representative of the exposure of people and when should it not be

> > used?

> >

> > It's intent is to be used INSTEAD of tape lifts and other

> > conventional methods because those " conventional " methods are not

> > only grossly inaccurate but usually misinterpreted in a manner to

> > support a positiion.

> >

> > Another alternative is a long term PCR sample. Like ERMI, a single

> > sample is much more expensive but may be much cheaper and more

> > accurate in the long run. I just don't know yet and neither does

> > anybody else. Yet.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sigh,

This is my fourth attempt to reply – browser keeps crashing.

Thanks for your read on this, Carl. I am ill and fogged enough that

everything is difficult. I am used to being self sufficient and also

able to research things and make decisions based on that research.

Right now I feel like I am surviving hour to hour or minute to

minute.

As far as ERMI testing goes, I think it may give a lot of

information for the dollar. The index itself may or may not prove

useful but at least, as LiveSimply mentioned, specific species

information is generated. Of course, any sampling technique is

subject to contamination and variations in the actual sampling

method. Analysis is also subject to errors and the limits inherent

in many forms of testing, like the inability to detect unexpected or

undocumented species.

For me a major problem is getting samples collected. There are two

buildings and a vehicle that all need to be looked into. Good news

is that I total access to them. Bad news is that I know I should not

go anywhere near them and have nobody to help. I also worry about

turning someone loose with a vacuum, could make things even worse.

Shrug again… I have no idea how to proceed. Just know that I feel

like crud.

Peace,

SJH

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Cautiously optimistic is a good description of my position.

> Especially since ERMI results, like all others, are subject to

> interpretation.

>

-----text removed--------------

[Guest guest]

lostonthebeach925,

I Know the feeling

Elvira

[] Re: ERMI (Environmental Relative Moldiness Index)

Sigh,

This is my fourth attempt to reply - browser keeps crashing.

Thanks for your read on this, Carl. I am ill and fogged enough that

everything is difficult. I am used to being self sufficient and also

able to research things and make decisions based on that research.

Right now I feel like I am surviving hour to hour or minute to

minute.

As far as ERMI testing goes, I think it may give a lot of

information for the dollar. The index itself may or may not prove

useful but at least, as LiveSimply mentioned, specific species

information is generated. Of course, any sampling technique is

subject to contamination and variations in the actual sampling

method. Analysis is also subject to errors and the limits inherent

in many forms of testing, like the inability to detect unexpected or

undocumented species.

For me a major problem is getting samples collected. There are two

buildings and a vehicle that all need to be looked into. Good news

is that I total access to them. Bad news is that I know I should not

go anywhere near them and have nobody to help. I also worry about

turning someone loose with a vacuum, could make things even worse.

Shrug again. I have no idea how to proceed. Just know that I feel

like crud.

Peace,

SJH

>

> Cautiously optimistic is a good description of my position.

> Especially since ERMI results, like all others, are subject to

> interpretation.

>

-----text removed--------------