Re: Ammonia fumigation // May

[Guest guest]

, I have tried ammonia fumigation now in bedroom of my

apartment. Finally got it all cleaned out and set a bowl of ammonia

in there for about a week. On another item, I didn't fumigate but

misted the velour cover of a sofa I have at the house, including the

carpet around it. Only thing I can report with both experiment is

that the ammonia odor stays around for a very long time. Velour sofa

smelled so much of ammonia, I shut off living room for a couple of

weeks. It may be all the surface area of something with a 'brushed

finish'. In apartment bedroom smell hung around along time also but

not as badly as sofa. I didn't test either one for mold before hand

or afterwards and of course no myco testing, so all I can report is

that the ammonia odor is hard to get rid of. Surprised since it makes

laundry smell very fresh but then it is rinsed out.

>

> Just curious, has anyone tried the ammonia-gas fumigation on

anything??

>

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the majority of

mycotoxins?

I know that some strong bases (like STRONG bleach) do inactivate most

mycotoxins

but that some popular cleaning agents work by degreasing and

dissolving the greasy films- *so it can be washed away*.

At one point I was talking to Dr. Straus at Texas Tech and brought up

ammonia as a cleaning agent to him and

his response was cautionary. I don't think he saw ammonia as a viable

deactivating agent for trichothecenes-

although it probably does help wash them away. (you all see that difference,

don't you?)

Leaving out that physical washing away step might be dangerous. With

trichothecene mycotoxins, stachybotrys mycotoxins,

it could be very dangerous to use a solvent that dissolves and then leave

out washing that now dissolved toxin away safely and then removing any

residue of the solvent or deactivating agent. (like soap and water with

dissolved toxins in it as well or bleach residue) also.

The biggest concern I have for people is that lacking a washing *and rinsing

away*

action - that an ammonia vapor might only work as far

as dissolving many mycotoxins and then sitting with them on the objects

surface, but that might end up being

irrelevant then as the ammonia then evaporated, as the mycotoxin might then

precipitate back out of solution

onto the surface of the object where it was to begin with. In fact, some

toxins that might have been trapped inside of

spores might be liberated into a state where mycotoxins were more potent in

the sense that they might extract

them into a position at the surface of objects where they could end up being

very easy to absorb through the skin of someone touching things.

I'd expect this to happen with alcohol, to use an example.

On 6/7/07, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> , I have tried ammonia fumigation now in bedroom of my

> apartment. Finally got it all cleaned out and set a bowl of ammonia

> in there for about a week. On another item, I didn't fumigate but

> misted the velour cover of a sofa I have at the house, including the

> carpet around it. Only thing I can report with both experiment is

> that the ammonia odor stays around for a very long time. Velour sofa

> smelled so much of ammonia, I shut off living room for a couple of

> weeks. It may be all the surface area of something with a 'brushed

> finish'. In apartment bedroom smell hung around along time also but

> not as badly as sofa. I didn't test either one for mold before hand

> or afterwards and of course no myco testing, so all I can report is

> that the ammonia odor is hard to get rid of. Surprised since it makes

> laundry smell very fresh but then it is rinsed out.

>

>

> >

> > Just curious, has anyone tried the ammonia-gas fumigation on

> anything??

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know LS. This is opinion of a pathologist I know who deals

with tricothecenes. Whether he has done his own studies and come to

this conclusion OR has read studies regarding this, I don't know.

However he does use it by spraying when cannot be wiped or rinsed off.

I wish we knew for sure just what to do.

- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the majority of

> mycotoxins?

[Guest guest]

Who???? Don't leave us hanging!

barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote: I don't know LS. This is opinion

of a pathologist I know who deals

with tricothecenes. Whether he has done his own studies and come to

this conclusion OR has read studies regarding this, I don't know.

However he does use it by spraying when cannot be wiped or rinsed off.

I wish we knew for sure just what to do.

- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the majority of

> mycotoxins?

---------------------------------

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.

[Guest guest]

I think it would be worth contacting Dr. Straus and Bill Croft and getting

the lowdown on

exactly what kind of experiments had been done and what the results were

before people relied

on this technique or anything similar.

People looking for magic bullets also always need to remember that these

efforts won't ever work

if the source of the water intrusion/condensation/etc. has not been fully

addressed FIRST.

On 6/7/07, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> I don't know LS. This is opinion of a pathologist I know who deals

> with tricothecenes. Whether he has done his own studies and come to

> this conclusion OR has read studies regarding this, I don't know.

> However he does use it by spraying when cannot be wiped or rinsed off.

> I wish we knew for sure just what to do.

>

> - In <%40>,

> LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the majority of

> > mycotoxins?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr.Croft mixes water and ammonia to spray down the air in a moldy

building only to knock particles to the ground so as not to be

breathed. no straight ammonia to gas off anything. this idea of

trying it straight,in a gas off method was one that Jeff and I talked

about trying outside in a closed container with books which I never

tried yet. I wouldn't try it in straight anywhere in my house. useing

it to wash laundry seems to help, Croft said it temp. nutralises it

but you need to keep washing laundry with it and to wipe out the

washer and drier afterwards. no one that I know has claimed it kills

mycotoxins.

>

> I think it would be worth contacting Dr. Straus and Bill Croft and

getting

> the lowdown on

> exactly what kind of experiments had been done and what the results

were

> before people relied

> on this technique or anything similar.

>

[Guest guest]

LS and Barb,

I only mentioned ammonia fumigation as a possibility because some of you

were using ammonia solution already to deal with mycotoxins (by washing),

and because it seemed far simpler and more economical to deal with ammonia

as a gas rather than as a liquid solution.

I myself have no idea if ammonia will inactivate any particular mycotoxin,

though ammonia is quite reactive and based on the organic chemistry of some

mycotoxins, would certainly be capable of doing so. Since there is not

really any solution [solvent] present during fumigation, any effect would be

due to inactivation (i.e. removal) rather than dissolving or diluting.

Trichothecin is an epoxide; epoxides react with ammonia and the Merk Index

reports that tricothecin loses its " antifungal properties " at high pH.

(Other reference below from searching Google using " reaction of ammonia with

..... " ).

A think that a week of fumigation is a bit too long, a day or two should be

adequate. You can always set out more than one dish if you want to bring up

the concentration faster. Fumigation for mycotoxin is not something that I

have tried so anyone who experiments with this should report back to the

group on the success or failure of the technique.

For airing out a room, I would use two box window fans, one blowing air in

and the other blowing air out.

Since the levels of mycotoxin are not likely to be measurable to begin with,

in the end, the final proof of this sort of process is whether you are

reactive or not after the treatment. If you are not symptomatic after

exposure to the room dust, then the fumigation worked.

-------------------------------------------------------

Examples of Reference Articles:

Mycotoxins in cereal grain. Part IV. Inactivation of ochratoxin A and other

mycotoxins during ammoniation, J. Chelkowski, P. Goliski, B. Godlewska, W.

Radomyska, Prof. Dr. K. Szebiotko, M. Wiewiórowska

Agricultural University of Food Technology of Plant Origin Commodities, ul.

Wojska Polskiego 31, 60-624 Pozna, Poland

Abstract: Addition of ammonia to final concentration 2% inactivates

ochratoxin A, aflatoxin, citrinin, penicillic acid and partially zearalenon

at temperature 20-50 °C. Detoxification of contaminated cereal grain

(wheat, corn or barley) can be performed on a farm using ammoniation without

special investment during 4 to 6 weeks. Ammoniation changes nutritional

value of grain as feed in a small extent.

Food / Nahrung, Volume 25, Issue 7 , Pages 631 - 637

Published Online: 19 Oct 2006

Copyright © 1981 WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim

Received: 18 March 1980; Revised: 22 July 1980

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Detoxification of Mycotoxins:

<http://www.fao.org/docrep/T1838E/T1838E0c.htm>

Ammonia, as both an anhydrous vapour and an aqueous solution, is the

detoxification reagent which has attracted (Park et al, 1988) the widest

interest and which has been exploited commercially, by the feed industry,

for the destruction of aflatoxin. Commercial ammonia detoxification

(ammoniation) facilities exist in the USA, Senegal, France and the UK,

primarily for the treatment of groundnut cake and meal. In the USA,

cottonseed products are treated in Arizona and California whilst maize is

ammoniated in Georgia, Alabama and North Carolina. Commercial ammoniation

involves the treatment of the feed, with ammonia, at elevated temperatures

and pressures over a period of approximately 30 minutes. Onfarm procedures,

as practiced with cottonseed in Arizona, involve spraying with aqueous

ammonia followed by storage at ambient temperature, for approximately two

weeks, in large silage bags.

The nature of the reaction products of the ammoniation of aflatoxin is still

poorly understood. However, many studies have been performed, on both

isolated ammoniation reaction products and treated feedingstuffs, in an

attempt to define the toxicological implications of ammoniation. Very

extensive feeding trials have been performed with a variety of animals

including trout, rats, poultry, pigs and beef and dairy cattle. The effect

of diets containing ammoniated feed has been determined by monitoring animal

growth and organ weights together with haematological, histopathological and

biochemical parameters. The results of these studies, combined with the

practical experience of commercial detoxification processes, strongly

indicate that the ammonia detoxification of aflatoxin is a safe process.

However, the formal approval of the ammoniation process by the USA Food and

Drug Administration is still awaited.

Commercial processes have not been developed for the detoxification

mycotoxins.

---------------------------

Remember, if you use ammonia liquid or gas (fumigation). you must not

breathe the fumes or have the liquid contavct your skin.

Cheers,

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

617-354-1055

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

>4a. Re: Ammonia fumigation // May

> Posted by: " LiveSimply " quackadillian@...

> Date: Thu Jun 7, 2007 6:53 pm ((PDT))

>Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the majority of

>mycotoxins?

>I know that some strong bases (like STRONG bleach) do inactivate most

mycotoxins

>but that some popular cleaning agents work by degreasing and

>dissolving the greasy films- *so it can be washed away*.

>At one point I was talking to Dr. Straus at Texas Tech and brought up

>ammonia as a cleaning agent to him and

>his response was cautionary. I don't think he saw ammonia as a viable

>deactivating agent for trichothecenes-

>although it probably does help wash them away. (you all see that >difference,

>don't you?)

>Leaving out that physical washing away step might be dangerous. With

>trichothecene mycotoxins, stachybotrys mycotoxins,

>it could be very dangerous to use a solvent that dissolves and then leave

>out washing that now dissolved toxin away safely and then removing any

>residue of the solvent or deactivating agent. (like soap and water with

>dissolved toxins in it as well or bleach residue) also.

>The biggest concern I have for people is that lacking a washing *and >rinsing

>away*

>action - that an ammonia vapor might only work as far

>as dissolving many mycotoxins and then sitting with them on the objects

>surface, but that might end up being

>irrelevant then as the ammonia then evaporated, as the mycotoxin might then

>precipitate back out of solution

>onto the surface of the object where it was to begin with. In fact, some

>toxins that might have been trapped inside of

>spores might be liberated into a state where mycotoxins were more potent in

>the sense that they might extract

>them into a position at the surface of objects where they could end up >being

>very easy to absorb through the skin of someone touching things.

I>'d expect this to happen with alcohol, to use an example.

[Guest guest]

It would be interesting to try if someone had a storage place full of

moldy belongings that they are reactive too to see if ammonia gasing

off would help, maybe have to air out afterwards,?? but I have severe

mcs and I just fell that people sick from mold exposure shouldn't be

around any types of chemicals at all. if they dont have it thry dont

want it. I believe what molds/myco' exposure does to our body sets us

up for getting chemical sensativity's if we dont have it yet.

[Guest guest]

> People looking for magic bullets also always need to remember that these

> efforts won't ever work

> if the source of the water intrusion/condensation/etc. has not been

fully

> addressed FIRST.

LS,

You are right of course, but we would benefit IMMENSELY if someone

discovered a chemical that can denature / decompose trichothecene

mycotoxins. That would greatly alleviate our suffering due to cross

contamination. If you can get into contact with Dr. Croft please ask

him what substances proved to be the best for inactivation of

trichothecenes.

I don't know why this myth about ammonia is perpetuated time and

again. Ammonia does not decompose trichothecenes (I wish). It can

decompose other mycotoxins, e.g. aflatoxin.

Here's an interesting read I already posted several times:

http://193.132.193.215/eman2/fsheet4_2.asp

--------------------

Trichothecenes

Calcium hydroxide monomethylamine has been used to decontaminate feeds

containing T-2 toxin and diacetoxyscirpenol at 10 to 20 mg/kg; the

success of the procedure is dependent on the moisture content of the

feed and the processing temperature. In particular, about 50% of

mycotoxin reduction was observed when the treatment was performed at

about 25 Deg C and 10% moisture in 4 hours; when the moisture content

was increased to 25% T-2 toxin level was reduced by 95 to 99%.

Sodium bisulfite solutions were able to reduce deoxynivalenol (DON)

level (85%) in contaminated corn (4.4 mg/kg DON) and form a

DON-sulfonate conjugate when the treatment was performed at 80 Deg C

for 18 hours (8). Because this compound appeared to be nontoxic to

pigs, this treatment has been proposed for decontaminating

DON-contaminated corn destined for use in pig feeds.

Other chemicals (hydrochloric acid, hydrogen peroxide, sodium

hypochlorite, ascorbic acid and ammonium carbonate) did not prove to

be as effective as sodium bisulfite and had little or no effect on DON

level.

------------------------

Note the last sentence: sodium hypochlorite (bleach) had little or no

effect on DON level. And DON is not nearly as stable as Stachy's

satratoxins. Ammonia isn't even mentioned for deactivation of

trichothecenes.

Furthermore, some people confuse T-2 toxin with all trichothecenes;

that is wrong. The T-2 toxin is the name for only one of the

trichothecene mycotoxins. If I recall well, that is the only

trichothecene that can be completely deactivated with bleach with the

addition of sodium hydroxide (lime). On the basis of that laymen and

even some chemists have drawn the wrong conclusion that bleach can

inactivate ALL trichothecenes. A US military manual that deals with

trichothecenes as biowarfare weapons is notoriously misleading in that

respect.

In my experience, stachy toxins are resistant to pretty much

everything: bleach, ammonia, strong bases and acids...

[Guest guest]

LS, The source of this information is one of those two people you

mention below already. If you want to contact these people about

it, and ask you are more than welcome. I don't feel like repeating

things said to me in private conversations that I don't know for

sure are wanted to be repeat. If I read it in public domain, I

would provide link.

Regarding your warning that we should not jump on a bandwagon/magic

bullet, catch up with what has been said already by checking the

archives for original conversations so we don't have to go over it

again. Noone has ever suggested it was.

> > >

> > > Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the

majority of

> > > mycotoxins?

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi a,

I had surgical tissue sent for a second opinion to a pathologist who

does research and tissue biospies for mold exposure. After examining

tissue, he called to discuss and told me amoung other things to have

someone mist or spray things down with ammonia amoung other advice. I

had cancer and sent sample of cancerous tissue to him to see if mold

could have been cause. Answer was definately yes. (I have to add

that I'm not sure if that meant tricothecenes definately 'were' the

cause or it was definately 'amoung' things that could have caused.

Sometimes different agents, toxins, can behave in similar fashions. I

did not clarify this with him as I was also had inhaled some lead

based paint during this period of working on house.) I didn't ask if

other things could be ruled out. This was confirmed by a medical

doctor who read results of my pathology report also, that

characteristics were consistent with mold exposure. I'd rather not

name names of my doctor/pathologist though. If I got information from

a 'public domain' of some kind, magazine or book, then I would share.

>

> Who???? Don't leave us hanging!

>

[Guest guest]

LS, Reading my own email, tone does not sound okay. Sorry, just

tired. I really don't know is my answer.

>

> LS, The source of this information is one of those two people you

> mention below already. If you want to contact these people about

>

[Guest guest]

LS,

Couldn't agree with you more. There are no magic bullets and any quick fix

without solving the moisture problem is a waste.

Fumigation of a room with ammonia is risky and could cause damage to wiring

or electronics; exposure to ammonia could change the color of dyes.

Because of the risks, the original intent of this discussion was to use

ammonia fumigation on a small scale (outdoors or in a garage in a large

plastic garbage pail) with disposable items like books that could not be

washed to see if it works.

It is still worth trying but I would not do a whole room until some folks

have tried it on a small scale to see if it even helps. Perhaps someone with

an already contaminated (unusable!)computer or portable AC could do a

fumigation on it and see if it eliminates the contamination without frying

the components. For the first time, just don't plug it in indoors!!!

Finally, let me reiterate that I am not a proponent of ammonia fumigation. I

only mentioned it because someone posted an email regarding the successful

use of liquid ammonia solution to eliminate contamination from an item.

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

617-354-1055

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

1a. Re: Ammonia fumigation // May

Posted by: " LiveSimply " quackadillian@...

Date: Fri Jun 8, 2007 5:23 am ((PDT))

I think it would be worth contacting Dr. Straus and Bill Croft and getting

the lowdown on

exactly what kind of experiments had been done and what the results were

before people relied

on this technique or anything similar.

People looking for magic bullets also always need to remember that these

efforts won't ever work

if the source of the water intrusion/condensation/etc. has not been fully

addressed FIRST.

On 6/7/07, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> I don't know LS. This is opinion of a pathologist I know who deals

> with tricothecenes. Whether he has done his own studies and come to

> this conclusion OR has read studies regarding this, I don't know.

> However he does use it by spraying when cannot be wiped or rinsed off.

> I wish we knew for sure just what to do.

>

> - In <%40>,

> LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Does anyone know for sure that *ammonia* inactivates the majority of

> > mycotoxins?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff.

Thanks for the links on subject.

In my case I did use it in a room but in a room I do not use but is a

room that had a moldy air conditioner in it. It is the bedroom of my

apartment but I sleep in the living room since bedroom did not smell

okay when I moved in and it was room a moldy air conditioner was used

in.

Unfortunately I have no reaction that I can recognize to mycotoxins

exposure, like did, for example, so I cannot tell if it has taken

care of mycos in room or not. At my own home I began to realize there

was a problem because I felt sooo very tired when at home but

recovered energy when I was out and about. However the reactions are

slow. I have been using ammonia from recommendation of my pathologist

and so used it on room.

In general I felt terrible in apartment when I first moved in but

after about 6 hours, 2 hours at a time, here and there with help from

other people place is 'spic and span' and I feel fine here. There was

dust and dirt everywhere here, so not sure if it was myco, dust mites,

or many things. Therefore can't report on effect of ammonia on room

since I don't use room but air from there can get into rest of

apartment through loose fitting door. Once a day, I air out apartment

by opening window in the bedroom and letting fan suck air out of there

to outside and with a window open at opposite end of apartment so air

flow is through bedroom taking it outdoors. I do it at night to cool

off and air out apartment. These things seem to keep apartment

liveable. Building itself has smelly areas, hallway, basement.

I think it is worth experimenting with. I am going to continue to

clean with ammonia for the time being and also experiment with

fumagating with ammonia since it was recommended to me by someone I

trust.

>>

> Couldn't agree with you more.