Guest guest Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Click here: Recordnet.com: Toxic mold to cost Tokay millions Click here: Tokay mold cleanup will cost $8 million; district hopes for state aid with bill Our experiences can be very helpful to people who have no idea what mold can do to human health. Want to write comments to the Letters to Editor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 We all have strong views‹both as patients AND as doctors. If you feel you have to have Armour find a doctor who will give it to you. Or ask this doctor to supplement your T4 with low doses of T3 to see how you do. I take levoxyl and Cytomel. You don¹t have to have pig hormone to get well. It¹s all a matter of what works for you. Sue On 9/17/08 12:38 PM, " D. " <stars_z82shine@...> wrote: > > > > I need input on the issues in this conversation... > > Me- > I want to change to Armour Thyroid. > > Doctor > - Oooooooh! Why? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 This was very interesting! Thanks for posting. I have yet to approach my doc about switching to armour so your post is helpful. Did you end up switching to Armour though? From: D. <stars_z82shine@...> Subject: Comments? hypothyroidism Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 12:38 PM I need input on the issues in this conversation. .. Me- I want to change to Armour Thyroid. Doctor - Oooooooh! Why? Me- T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. Doctor- *Sigh* Me- Either that or Westhroid. Doctor- I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of adjustments in you dose. Me- What about another brand, like Westhroid? Doctor- Is there a problem with levothyroxin? Me- I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with my life. Doctor- The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. It's not the medication…it' s the dose. Now if you prefer to take brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going to complicate things down the road. All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from that than you would if you were chronically low. Me- These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. Doctor- The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with osteoporosis. A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with a grain of salt. If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not from hypothyroidism. There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Sue, Just asking because I dont know, but what is considered a low dose of T3? > > > > I need input on the issues in this conversation. .. > > Me- > I want to change to Armour Thyroid. > > Doctor > - Oooooooh! Why? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 A low dose is their lowest dose, which is 5 mcg. I take 2 to 3 of those a day -- t3 metabolizes more quickly so it " wears off " to put it in simple terms. I take one in the morning and either one or two afternoon depending on how I feel. Most immediate effects I actually felt were warm hands and a bit more energy when I started on it a few years ago. I tried Armour on 4 occasions but it made me feel ill and bloated and achy. No matter what dose I went on of it -high or low, my body could not tolerate whatever a Pig's thryoid hormones are. I find the Levoxyl/Cytomel works perfectly since you can completely control the ratio of T4 to T3 whereas with armour you cannot - it's a much higher T3 ratio and you can't change that except to maybe add in straight T4 and try to concoct a good dose for you AND find a doctor willing to do that. Sue On 9/24/08 9:38 AM, " Comerford " <cumocumocumo@...> wrote: > Sue, > > Just asking because I dont know, but what is considered a low dose of T3? > > > > From: eastodurango@... <eastodurango@...> > Subject: Re: Comments? > hypothyroidism > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 9:05 AM > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Did you laugh at him when he said Armour (desiccated porcine thyroids) was from pig an cow thyroids? Get hold of Forest Pharmaceuticals and have them send this brainiac an Armour info packet. Here's a pdf http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf and Forest's info page: http://www.frx.com/products/armour.aspx I'll make a bet that he's clueless about adrenal insufficiency as well... Sam > > I need input on the issues in this conversation... > > > > > Me- > I want to change to Armour Thyroid. > > Doctor > - Oooooooh! Why? > > Me- > T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. > > Doctor- > *Sigh* > > Me- > Either that or Westhroid. > > Doctor- > I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In > larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow > thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more > T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the > people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in > T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and > they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. > Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). > Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how > it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and > has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's > no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, > essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. > I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a > good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose > of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 > to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it > here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid > for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, > it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. > And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't > have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it > tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, > as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of > adjustments in you dose. > > Me- > What about another brand, like Westhroid? > > Doctor- > Is there a problem with levothyroxin? > > Me- > I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general > consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I > just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with > my life. > > > Doctor- > The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. > It's not the medication…it's the dose. Now if you prefer to take > brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching > to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things > potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going > to complicate things down the road. > > All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend > natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's > not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic > thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than > what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary > from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from > that than you would if you were chronically low. > > Me- > These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one > will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that > depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. > > Doctor- > The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid > levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. > There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again > typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less > depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your > risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could > have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with > osteoporosis. > A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with > a grain of salt. > If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not > from hypothyroidism. > > There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic > levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable > amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand > either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more > expensive. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 , You wrote: > I need input on the issues in this conversation... I would suggest trying the doctor's improved dose. Get your TSH below 2. If that still does not work, threaten to get a new doctor. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Well, the other option is to either get another provider say in natural medicine or treat yourself by ordering online from an overseas company. -- Comments? I need input on the issues in this conversation... Me- I want to change to Armour Thyroid. Doctor - Oooooooh! Why? Me- T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. Doctor- *Sigh* Me- Either that or Westhroid. Doctor- I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of adjustments in you dose. Me- What about another brand, like Westhroid? Doctor- Is there a problem with levothyroxin? Me- I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with my life. Doctor- The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. It's not the medication…it's the dose. Now if you prefer to take brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going to complicate things down the road. All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from that than you would if you were chronically low. Me- These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. Doctor- The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with osteoporosis. A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with a grain of salt. If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not from hypothyroidism. There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 NO ONE here should EVER EVER tell ANYone to ³treat themselves.² PLEASE. And I am not yelling I am imploring this to all. Thryoid meds taken in wrong amounts can be FATAL and very damaging to the bones and heart. ESPECIALLY T3. sue On 9/24/08 2:45 PM, " Nancie Barnett " <deifspirit@...> wrote: > > > > Well, the other option is to either get another provider say in natural > medicine or treat yourself by ordering online from an overseas company. > > -- Comments? > > I need input on the issues in this conversation... > > Me- > I want to change to Armour Thyroid. > > Doctor > - Oooooooh! Why? > > Me- > T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. > > Doctor- > *Sigh* > > Me- > Either that or Westhroid. > > Doctor- > I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In > larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow > thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more > T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the > people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in > T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and > they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. > Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). > Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how > it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and > has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's > no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, > essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. > I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a > good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose > of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 > to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it > here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid > for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, > it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. > And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't > have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it > tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, > as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of > adjustments in you dose. > > Me- > What about another brand, like Westhroid? > > Doctor- > Is there a problem with levothyroxin? > > Me- > I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general > consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I > just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with > my life. > > Doctor- > The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. > It's not the medication…it's the dose. Now if you prefer to take > brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching > to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things > potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going > to complicate things down the road. > > All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend > natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's > not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic > thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than > what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary > from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from > that than you would if you were chronically low. > > Me- > These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one > will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that > depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. > > Doctor- > The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid > levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. > There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again > typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less > depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your > risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could > have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with > osteoporosis. > A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with > a grain of salt. > If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not > from hypothyroidism. > > There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic > levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable > amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand > either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more > expensive. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Sue- People treat themselves all the time. Where do you think I found out about ordering Armour online? From another thyroid patient. On the other lists [ namely stopthethyroidmadness], members will tell people off list where they can get it. Ultimately it is the person's responsibility to make their own decision. We are ALL ADULTS here. I am just letting her know she has options. Before I found my natural medicine provider- I ordered online and self- treated using the guidelines form http://stopthethyroidmadness.com -- Comments? > > I need input on the issues in this conversation... > > Me- > I want to change to Armour Thyroid. > > Doctor > - Oooooooh! Why? > > Me- > T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. > > Doctor- > *Sigh* > > Me- > Either that or Westhroid. > > Doctor- > I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In > larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow > thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more > T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the > people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in > T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and > they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. > Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). > Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how > it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and > has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's > no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, > essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. > I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a > good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose > of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 > to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it > here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid > for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, > it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. > And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't > have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it > tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, > as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of > adjustments in you dose. > > Me- > What about another brand, like Westhroid? > > Doctor- > Is there a problem with levothyroxin? > > Me- > I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general > consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I > just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with > my life. > > Doctor- > The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. > It's not the medication…it's the dose. Now if you prefer to take > brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching > to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things > potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going > to complicate things down the road. > > All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend > natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's > not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic > thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than > what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary > from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from > that than you would if you were chronically low. > > Me- > These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one > will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that > depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. > > Doctor- > The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid > levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. > There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again > typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less > depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your > risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could > have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with > osteoporosis. > A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with > a grain of salt. > If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not > from hypothyroidism. > > There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic > levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable > amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand > either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more > expensive. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Good for you. Contrary to what the medical establishment wishes you to believe, i.e., that you are dependent on their pills, potions, and knives (knaves?), we ALL need to take as much responsibility as possible for our own well-being and that of our family. Dr. Dan Kukulka On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Nancie Barnett < deifspirit@...> wrote: > Sue- > People treat themselves all the time. Where do you think I found out about > ordering Armour online? From another thyroid patient. On the other lists [ > namely stopthethyroidmadness], members will tell people off list where they > can get it. Ultimately it is the person's responsibility to make their own > decision. We are ALL ADULTS here. > I am just letting her know she has options. > Before I found my natural medicine provider- I ordered online and self- > treated using the guidelines form http://stopthethyroidmadness.com > > > -- Comments? > > > > I need input on the issues in this conversation... > > > > Me- > > I want to change to Armour Thyroid. > > > > Doctor > > - Oooooooh! Why? > > > > Me- > > T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. > > > > Doctor- > > *Sigh* > > > > Me- > > Either that or Westhroid. > > > > Doctor- > > I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In > > larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow > > thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more > > T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the > > people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in > > T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and > > they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. > > Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). > > Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how > > it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and > > has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's > > no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, > > essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. > > I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a > > good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose > > of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 > > to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it > > here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid > > for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, > > it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. > > And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't > > have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it > > tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, > > as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of > > adjustments in you dose. > > > > Me- > > What about another brand, like Westhroid? > > > > Doctor- > > Is there a problem with levothyroxin? > > > > Me- > > I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general > > consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I > > just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with > > my life. > > > > Doctor- > > The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. > > It's not the medication…it's the dose. Now if you prefer to take > > brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching > > to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things > > potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going > > to complicate things down the road. > > > > All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend > > natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's > > not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic > > thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than > > what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary > > from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from > > that than you would if you were chronically low. > > > > Me- > > These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one > > will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that > > depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. > > > > Doctor- > > The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid > > levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. > > There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again > > typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less > > depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your > > risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could > > have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with > > osteoporosis. > > A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with > > a grain of salt. > > If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not > > from hypothyroidism. > > > > There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic > > levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable > > amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand > > either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more > > expensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Sorry, Nancie, but whether or not people treat themselves is not anyone¹s business but theirs. Telling someone outright to TREAT THEMSELVES is malpractice if you represent yourself as a health professional here and you do, even though you are not their health professional. Being adult means being responsible. For not only what others do but how we conduct ourselves. Just because you self-treated does not give you carte blanche to tell anyone else to do so where prescription drugs and someone¹s safety is concerned. Thryoid meds at incorrect doses carry a very high risk. This is truly my opinion and that¹s all- I don¹t want to argue about it. Su On 9/24/08 10:40 PM, " Nancie Barnett " <deifspirit@...> wrote: > > > > Sue- > People treat themselves all the time. Where do you think I found out about > ordering Armour online? From another thyroid patient. On the other lists [ > namely stopthethyroidmadness], members will tell people off list where they > can get it. Ultimately it is the person's responsibility to make their own > decision. We are ALL ADULTS here. > I am just letting her know she has options. > Before I found my natural medicine provider- I ordered online and self- > treated using the guidelines form http://stopthethyroidmadness.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 The key word here is " we need " not " YOU NEED. " If you, as " Dr. Dan, advise someone to ignore their doctor and self-treat, you then must take moral responsibility for them placing their trust in " Dr. Dan's ADVICE. " sue On 9/25/08 4:33 AM, " Dan Kukulka " <enemaguy@...> wrote: > Good for you. > > Contrary to what the medical establishment wishes you to believe, i.e., that > you are dependent on their pills, potions, and knives (knaves?), we ALL need > to take as much responsibility as possible for our own well-being and that > of our family. > > Dr. Dan Kukulka > > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Nancie Barnett < > deifspirit@...> wrote: > >> Sue- >> People treat themselves all the time. Where do you think I found out about >> ordering Armour online? From another thyroid patient. On the other lists [ >> namely stopthethyroidmadness], members will tell people off list where they >> can get it. Ultimately it is the person's responsibility to make their own >> decision. We are ALL ADULTS here. >> I am just letting her know she has options. >> Before I found my natural medicine provider- I ordered online and self- >> treated using the guidelines form http://stopthethyroidmadness.com >> >> >> -- Comments? >>> >>> I need input on the issues in this conversation... >>> >>> Me- >>> I want to change to Armour Thyroid. >>> >>> Doctor >>> - Oooooooh! Why? >>> >>> Me- >>> T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> *Sigh* >>> >>> Me- >>> Either that or Westhroid. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In >>> larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow >>> thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more >>> T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the >>> people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in >>> T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and >>> they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. >>> Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). >>> Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how >>> it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and >>> has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's >>> no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, >>> essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. >>> I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a >>> good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose >>> of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 >>> to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it >>> here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid >>> for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, >>> it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. >>> And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't >>> have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it >>> tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, >>> as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of >>> adjustments in you dose. >>> >>> Me- >>> What about another brand, like Westhroid? >>> >>> Doctor- >>> Is there a problem with levothyroxin? >>> >>> Me- >>> I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general >>> consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I >>> just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with >>> my life. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. >>> It's not the medication…it's the dose. Now if you prefer to take >>> brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching >>> to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things >>> potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going >>> to complicate things down the road. >>> >>> All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend >>> natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's >>> not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic >>> thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than >>> what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary >>> from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from >>> that than you would if you were chronically low. >>> >>> Me- >>> These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one >>> will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that >>> depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid >>> levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. >>> There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again >>> typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less >>> depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your >>> risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could >>> have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with >>> osteoporosis. >>> A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with >>> a grain of salt. >>> If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not >>> from hypothyroidism. >>> >>> There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic >>> levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable >>> amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand >>> either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more >>> expensive. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Today's patients must educate themselves and not take advise from a doctor just because of their medical degree. They must question what doesn't seem right and get 2nd, even 3rd opinions until they find a Dr. who will really listen to them. I was given the information on how to order Armour without a prescription & I strongly believe it saved my baby's life and helped my pregnancy to get back on track. I would have been in deep trouble without this information and yes not only did I self treat, I self treated while pregnant. As soon as I found out I was pregnant, my 1st endo wanted to cut my Armour in half (from 3 grains to 1 1/2 grains) because of a low TSH (that I have consistently have on Armour, no matter what level I take. He did not listen to the fact that I was having major hypothyroid symptoms again plus could barely breathe and was constantly gasping for air. I went to a 2nd endo who said I did need more thyroid, but did not like Armour (even though I seem to have a conversion problem) and so put me on 300 of Synthroid (with no T4 source). Both endos said if I did not listen to them, my baby could die and I was being selfish. At this point I was a mess. My ob/gyn sent me to both a cardiologist and pulmonologist. Both were wonderful and both said that while it was rare, not having enough thyroid could be causing my severe breathing problems (after they gave me extensive testing for anything else). Now this was going on in the first trimester. During this time, I started ordering my own Armour and gradually increased it to 5 grains until my symptoms diminished and my breathing problem ended. At the end of my 2nd trimester, I finally found a great endo who not only listened, but put me on the same dose I had self-prescribed. He believe my TSH is not an accurate measurement for me, because it does not change, no matter what dose of Armour I am on. He believes my pituitary might be damaged (it must work some because I got pregnant). The 1st 2 endos did not even check for this. My little girl is not 7 months old and is very healthy. You can not blindly trust someone just because they have a medical degree. You have to listen to your body and do your own research. >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, the other option is to either get another provider say in natural >>> medicine or treat yourself by ordering online from an overseas company. >>> >>> -- Comments? >>> >>> I need input on the issues in this conversation. .. >>> >>> Me- >>> I want to change to Armour Thyroid. >>> >>> Doctor >>> - Oooooooh! Why? >>> >>> Me- >>> T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> *Sigh* >>> >>> Me- >>> Either that or Westhroid. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In >>> larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow >>> thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more >>> T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the >>> people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in >>> T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and >>> they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. >>> Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). >>> Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how >>> it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and >>> has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's >>> no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, >>> essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. >>> I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a >>> good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose >>> of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 >>> to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it >>> here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid >>> for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, >>> it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. >>> And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't >>> have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it >>> tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, >>> as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of >>> adjustments in you dose. >>> >>> Me- >>> What about another brand, like Westhroid? >>> >>> Doctor- >>> Is there a problem with levothyroxin? >>> >>> Me- >>> I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general >>> consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I >>> just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with >>> my life. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. >>> It's not the medication…it' s the dose. Now if you prefer to take >>> brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching >>> to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things >>> potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going >>> to complicate things down the road. >>> >>> All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend >>> natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's >>> not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic >>> thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than >>> what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary >>> from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from >>> that than you would if you were chronically low. >>> >>> Me- >>> These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one >>> will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that >>> depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. >>> >>> Doctor- >>> The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid >>> levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. >>> There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again >>> typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less >>> depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your >>> risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could >>> have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with >>> osteoporosis. >>> A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with >>> a grain of salt. >>> If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not >>> from hypothyroidism. >>> >>> There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic >>> levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable >>> amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand >>> either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more >>> expensive. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 The key here is we have to listen to OUR needs, our research, OUR reactions and not what anyone else does. And in turn, we must not tell others what to do or what to take. There's really no argument involved -- you guys can believe and do what you want. That's your God-given right. Having a bad doctor or set of doctors is no reason to start playing one yourself. I don't think you'd do brain surgery on a friend, so don't mess with their thyroid meds --either one will kill them if not knowledge-ably. Sue On 9/25/08 11:18 AM, " Alaniz " <anadonalaniz@...> wrote: > Today's patients must educate themselves and not take advise from a doctor > just because of their medical degree. They must question what doesn't seem > right and get 2nd, even 3rd opinions until they find a Dr. who will really > listen to them. I was given the information on how to order Armour without a > prescription & I strongly believe it saved my baby's life and helped my > pregnancy to get back on track. I would have been in deep trouble without > this information and yes not only did I self treat, I self treated while > pregnant. As soon as I found out I was pregnant, my 1st endo wanted to cut my > Armour in half (from 3 grains to 1 1/2 grains) because of a low TSH (that I > have consistently have on Armour, no matter what level I take. He did not > listen to the fact that I was having major hypothyroid symptoms again plus > could barely breathe and was constantly gasping for air. I went to a 2nd endo > who said I did need more thyroid, but did not like > Armour (even though I seem to have a conversion problem) and so put me on > 300 of Synthroid (with no T4 source). Both endos said if I did not listen to > them, my baby could die and I was being selfish. At this point I was a mess. > My ob/gyn sent me to both a cardiologist and pulmonologist. Both were > wonderful and both said that while it was rare, not having enough thyroid > could be causing my severe breathing problems (after they gave me extensive > testing for anything else). Now this was going on in the first trimester. > During this time, I started ordering my own Armour and gradually increased it > to 5 grains until my symptoms diminished and my breathing problem ended. At > the end of my 2nd trimester, I finally found a great endo who not only > listened, but put me on the same dose I had self-prescribed. He believe my > TSH is not an accurate measurement for me, because it does not change, no > matter what dose of Armour I am on. He > believes my pituitary might be damaged (it must work some because I got > pregnant). The 1st 2 endos did not even check for this. My little girl is > not 7 months old and is very healthy. You can not blindly trust someone just > because they have a medical degree. You have to listen to your body and do > your own research. > > >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, the other option is to either get another provider say in natural >>>> medicine or treat yourself by ordering online from an overseas company. >>>> >>>> -- Comments? >>>> >>>> I need input on the issues in this conversation. .. >>>> >>>> Me- >>>> I want to change to Armour Thyroid. >>>> >>>> Doctor >>>> - Oooooooh! Why? >>>> >>>> Me- >>>> T3, T4, T2, T1, Calcitonin. >>>> >>>> Doctor- >>>> *Sigh* >>>> >>>> Me- >>>> Either that or Westhroid. >>>> >>>> Doctor- >>>> I don't typically switch and I don't typically use Armour. In >>>> larger part the problem is that its desiccated pork, pig & cow >>>> thyroid. The problem with it is that pigs and cows make a lot more >>>> T3 than people and I may get a skewed point of view because I see the >>>> people who don't do well on it but I end up with a lot of patients in >>>> T3 toxicosis because they get way too much T3 and not enough T4 and >>>> they end up hyper thyroid on Armour. I'm not a big fan of Armour. >>>> Your level is improving certainly here. (Referring to last TSH). >>>> Humans are designed that their body's convert T4 to T3 that's how >>>> it works. Supplementing with T3 has been hugely controversial and >>>> has been for decades. Some people do it some people don't. There's >>>> no good evidence that suggest its better one way or the other, >>>> essentially everything is tied as far as everything goes. >>>> I wouldn't recommend switching you. Because once you get on a >>>> good dose…the problem is that you've just not been on the right dose >>>> of levothyroxin and your getting there and the last increase from 150 >>>> to 175mcg/day …that was a good adjustment and I would just leave it >>>> here. You don't feel well because you haven't been normal thyroid >>>> for months. It's not lack of T3 that's making you not feel well, >>>> it's a lack of thyroid hormones in general that you don't feel well. >>>> And not that I don't have patients that do well on Armour, I don't >>>> have that many but I have a few. The problem is long term that it >>>> tends to not be as stable, it's not as stable from batch to batch, >>>> as to how much pig or how much cow, and you end up with lots of >>>> adjustments in you dose. >>>> >>>> Me- >>>> What about another brand, like Westhroid? >>>> >>>> Doctor- >>>> Is there a problem with levothyroxin? >>>> >>>> Me- >>>> I've joined a couple thyroid support groups and the general >>>> consensus is that natural desiccated thyroid is the way to go. I >>>> just want to feel the best that I can feel, lose wt. and get on with >>>> my life. >>>> >>>> Doctor- >>>> The problem is that you just haven't been on the right amount yet. >>>> It's not the medication…it' s the dose. Now if you prefer to take >>>> brand-name Synthroid …I don't have a problem with that but switching >>>> to a less stable medication is just going to complicate things >>>> potentially. it's not a guarantee, but potentially its just going >>>> to complicate things down the road. >>>> >>>> All those support groups are all, quote, natural. They recommend >>>> natural. It's my joke that if it's natural for a pig or a cow it's >>>> not necessarily natural if you're a human being. Actually synthetic >>>> thyroid hormone is chemically, actually closer to what we make than >>>> what is in the desiccated thyroid as the amount of hormone can vary >>>> from batch to batch significantly and you won't feel any better from >>>> that than you would if you were chronically low. >>>> >>>> Me- >>>> These groups also say that natural being on desiccated thyroid, one >>>> will see that cholesterol will be more under control and that >>>> depression that goes along with thyroid problems will disappear. >>>> >>>> Doctor- >>>> The issue with depression and thyroid, again, is that if your thyroid >>>> levels are normal the depression is not related to a thyroid cause. >>>> There is something that they call T3 euphoria and then again >>>> typically people end up a little hyperthyroid. They do feel less >>>> depressed. The problem with that is that also tends to increase your >>>> risk for atrial fibrillation which creates conditions where you could >>>> have a stroke –or- it can thin your bones and you can end up with >>>> osteoporosis. >>>> A lot of these thyroid groups…well read what you want, but read with >>>> a grain of salt. >>>> If your TSH is between 1-3 and you still have depression, it's not >>>> from hypothyroidism. >>>> >>>> There is technically a difference between brand Synthroid and generic >>>> levothyroxin. The brand is more stable and gives you a more stable >>>> amount of hormone in each pill. So if you want, I'll give you brand >>>> either levothyroxin or levoxil , knowing that it's a little more >>>> expensive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese allow Sue to state her opinion without being made to feel like an ogre. If you all scroll back I was VERY nice, very diplomatic and made it clear I was simply stating my opinion that when it comes to PRESCRIPTION drugs, that we do not TELL others to ³treat themselves and buy online from overseas companies.² I know from the emails I get I am not the only one who feels this way but really, people, This is not about personalities and attacks, it¹s about safety and healing. That is my only intent. When came on here MUD-SLINGing and using the word JERK, ony 2-3 people even bothered to let him know that was way out of line ‹ that direct attacks are hostile and nasty. I attacked no one. Let¹s move on. Thank you. SUe On 9/25/08 9:43 PM, " Steve " <dudescholar4@...> wrote: > > > > > > eastodurango@... <mailto:eastodurango%40earthlink.net> wrote: >> > Nancie, your exact words were ³...or treat yourself by orderling online >> from >> > an overseas company.² > > Is this much different from " if it were me, I would order > internationally and ... " > > Sometimes, it so much easier to manage your own health than to hunt and > hunt and hunt for a doctor that will do the right thing, treat you like > a consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2008 Report Share Posted September 27, 2008 I didn't have in mind " your " case; but I've known of cases that were won on such flimsy criteria that you would have thought they would have been laughed out of court. So you can't count on it IMHO... .. .. > > Posted by: " Nancie Barnett " deifspirit@... > <mailto:deifspirit@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Comments%3F> > aspenfairy1 <aspenfairy1> > > > Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:29 pm (PDT) > > - > It doesn't even meet the level of criteria. The whole thing is so > idiotic. I > come from a family of lawyers and I can tell you now that the whole thing > would be laughed out of court. It is bloody NUTS > > -- Re: Comments? > > In a civil [liability] case you can NEVER be sure what a judge/jury is > going to do. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2008 Report Share Posted September 27, 2008 How many of those laugh out of court cases were later overturned in a higher court though???? CW -- Re: Comments? > > In a civil [liability] case you can NEVER be sure what a judge/jury is > going to do. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 AFAIK, none. And I was employed by the company involved for 37 years. The cost of litigation [or further litigation] sets up the case so that you cannot possibly win; but only [perhaps] control to some extent how much you lose. .. .. > > Posted by: " Crystal " sweetnwright@... > <mailto:sweetnwright@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Comments%3F> > sweetenloe1 <sweetenloe1> > > > Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:32 pm (PDT) > > How many of those laugh out of court cases were later overturned in a > higher > court though???? > CW > > -- Re: Comments? > > I didn't have in mind " your " case; but I've known of cases that were won > on such flimsy criteria that you would have thought they would have been > laughed out of court. So you can't count on it IMHO... > > > . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.