Re: Air Conditioners

[Guest guest]

How about a few million Russian grandmothers who will swear on a stack of

bibles that air conditioners and fans (anything that produces cold or moves

air) are the instruments of the Devil and the root of all illness?

Seriously though, I would also like to know if there are any real controlled

studies on this. Not that it will convince my Kazakh mother-in-law...

Jim

Air Conditioners

Mes Amis

Has anybody got any researched material on link (or lack of) between air

conditioners and general health?

Salutations du dÊsert,

Nigel

Algeria

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[Guest guest]

--- Dawdy <jdawdy@...> wrote:

> How about a few million Russian grandmothers who will swear on a

> stack of bibles that air conditioners and fans (anything that

produces cold or moves air) are the instruments of the Devil and the

root of all illness?

>

> Seriously though, I would also like to know if there are any real

> controlled studies on this. Not that it will convince my Kazakh

> mother-in-law...

>

> Jim

Add me to that curious list

The only link I recall

Was with fungus that would grow in the system

And cause chronic upper airway infections

Last place I worked

They cleaned the A/Cs aprox. every 3 months

.... still had many a complaints though

I leave you with a NY Times article

Battling the truth with colds caused by colds ! ?

Brault EMT-P

'You'll Catch Your Death!' An Old Wives' Tale? Well . . .

By ABIGAIL ZUGER

If there is anything worse than the mucky, dreary, icy weather of

winter, it is the sniffly, stuffy, achy congestion of a winter cold,

an internal misery so perfectly in tune with the misery outside that

no one has to wonder where a cold in the nose got its name.

Nor is it any wonder that medical folklore has forged a stubborn link

between the two: catch a chill and you'll catch a cold, common wisdom

runs, especially if you are rash enough to wander around in the cold

with damp hair or wet feet.

A survey of the medical literature shows that for more than a

century, scientists have invested an extraordinary amount of time and

energy in debunking this old saw, with the aid of a small army of

shivering, sneezing volunteers. But despite their efforts, the link

between colds and the weather still lingers and continues to inspire

yet more research.

" Health and the weather was a big topic in previous periods of

history, " said Dr. Jack M. Gwaltney Jr., an emeritus professor of

medicine at the University of Virginia and one of the world's leading

experts on the common cold. Many infectious diseases cycle with the

seasons, Dr. Gwaltney said, and doctors still seldom understand why.

Colds, of course, are caused by any of several hundred different

strains of virus. People get more colds in the winter at least in

part because nasty weather drives them indoors to make extremely

close contact with one another's infectious mucus.

But the story is more complicated than that, as a century of

experiments shows.

The link between chills and infection dates from Louis Pasteur, who

found in 1878 that chickens are naturally immune to anthrax. He

guessed that their high body temperatures might be responsible

(normal chicken temperature varies from 104 to 107) and decided to

expose a chicken to anthrax and then chill it in a basin of water.

The chicken developed anthrax and died. Pasteur repeated the

experiment with a chicken he fished out of the water after a few

hours and warmed in a blanket. That chicken became sick but

recovered.

Generations of experimental biologists replicated Pasteur's

experiments with other animals and other germs, and confirmed that

chilled monkeys were more susceptible to polio, and chilled mice and

rabbits were more likely to succumb to pneumonia and a variety of

other respiratory infections.

Meanwhile, other scientists began to look for similar tendencies in

chilled humans.

A German scientist studying thousands of soldiers during World War I

reported that those stationed in cold, wet trenches for 72 hours were

four times as likely to develop colds as those kept in their

barracks. Young women in college studied in the 1940's reported colds

more frequently during cold rainy periods than cold sunny days.

Mounties in the Canadian Arctic developed more colds and more severe

colds during periods of unusual exertion in cold day and night

conditions.

But scientists also found the reverse. On a tiny frigid island in the

Arctic Sea studied in the 1930's, for instance, no inhabitant caught

cold during the winter. It was only after the ice broke and the first

ship bringing provisions docked in May that the islanders got sick,

presumably from infected sailors.

Experimenters soon stopped chilling animals in the laboratory and

began chilling people instead. In the years after World War II,

thousands of volunteers thronged to the Common Cold Research Unit in

Salisbury, England, where they were paid for allowing researchers to

drip a little infected mucus into their noses.

Among the volunteers were 12 people who were assigned to bathe and

then wander around cold corridors in wet socks and bathing suits " for

half an hour or as long as they could bear it, " the chief researcher

wrote in a report.

" Most showed a drop of several degrees in body temperature and felt

rather chilly and unhappy for a time, " he reported, but whether or

not they were exposed to infected mucus, they were no more likely to

catch cold than their warmer colleagues.

In the 1950's, Chicago researchers repeated the experiment on a

larger scale with several hundred volunteers sitting in their socks

and underwear in a 60-degree room before being inoculated with

infectious mucus. Others, in coats, hats and gloves, spent two hours

in a large freezer. The conclusion: all 253 chilled volunteers caught

cold at exactly the same rate as 175 members of a warm control group.

The discovery of the rhinovirus, the most common cause of the common

cold, inspired Texas researchers to readdress the question. In 1968,

they reported that they had chilled 27 men in a cold room or a cold

bath, then dripped a strain of rhinovirus in their noses at various

times afterward. Some were chilled after they had actually developed

a cold, to see whether it lingered longer.

Chilling had no effect on the chances of catching a cold or the

severity of colds caught. Enough is enough, these researchers said at

the end of their report. " Further studies seem unwarranted. "

But the studies have continued nonetheless.

Many experiments have tried to assess the effects of the cold on

immune function. Animals kept in profound cold have somewhat dampened

immune systems, but researchers disagree on whether this is an effect

of the cold itself or a stress response to a frightening and

unpleasant experience. In 1999, Canadian researchers found exactly

the opposite effect in humans: exposure to the cold seemed to

stimulate many separate facets of the immune system in healthy young

men spending two hours in the equivalent of a large refrigerator.

Meanwhile, virologists have learned that the common cold is a complex

entity — not a single disease at all, but many similar ones, and that

all of them cycle in response to the weather in ways that are still

not understood. It turns out that rhinoviruses cause colds mostly in

the spring and the fall. Other families of viruses cause most winter

colds. Among them is the influenza virus, which causes colds as well

as the flu, but is too dangerous to use in human experiments to

figure out why.

Dr. Gwaltney, the cold expert, suggests that it is not temperature

but humidity that fosters many colds. The rhinovirus thrives in

humidity, and his research in the 1970's showed that peak rhinovirus

seasons correlate with runs of overcast, wet spring and fall days

that keep children inside to infect their elders while allowing the

virus enough humidity to thrive.

" Climate has both biological and behavioral consequences, " Dr.

Gwaltney said. " There are plenty of experiments left to do. "

Years ago, a group of cold researchers identified the poker game as

the ideal setting for studying cold transmission. Poker players

clustered around a table are virtually encased in the invisible

infectious spray generated by coughs, sneezes and excited

conversation, they handle the same chips and cards over and over

again, often touch fingers, and stay in their seats for hours.

Cold researchers have already thrown a series of 12-hour poker

parties for sniffling cold victims and healthy volunteers. In some of

them, the guests played poker wearing large plastic collars, similar

to the ones dogs wear after surgery, to see if preventing people from

touching their noses might decrease viral transmission. (Just as many

became sick.)

It may be only a matter of time before new armies of volunteers are

invited to poker parties held in the back of a meat locker, just to

settle the matter of colds and the cold definitively, once and for

all.

In the meantime, it does not hurt to bundle up.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Straus did a paper on " air handling units " recently that examined mold

growth in them extensively. You might want to send him an email. I don't

think that the ability to blow air from outside to inside is a requirement

of air conditioners, as they have two separate heat exchangers, the one on

the inside and the one outside.. (Sometimes the two are separated by a

distance and pipes, like in the ductless ones)

Most but not all window units do have a setting for outside to inside air

exchange but that is more a function of the fan and not the AC itself.

[Guest guest]

THERES A VENT, OPEN BRING AIR IN FROM OUTSIDE, CLOSED RECIRCULATED

INSIDE AIR. EVEN OFF, IF VENT IS OPEN AIR CAN COME IN FROM OUTSIDE.

DONT KNOW FOR SURE BUT I THINK ALL AC'S HAVE VENT.

>

> Do window air conditioners bring in air from outside while running,

> or 'let in' air from outside while not running does anyone know?? It

> gets awfully moldy outside and need to air condition or dehumidify.

> Window units are cheaper than totally inside portable systems. I

> think I could survive by just dehumidifying but have never tried it

> before and concerned that since portable dehumidifiers let out heat

in

> the process of dehumidifying, although it would dry out apartment,

may

> make it just too, too hot. Does anyone have any information on this

> that would help? Thanks...very hot and humid for next couple of

> months and not feeling too well in it, affects my sleep and don't

feel

> like eating so I'll have to solve this.

>

[Guest guest]

ALSO THOSE VENTS ON BACK AND SIDES THAT LET OUT HEAT FROM MOTOR,ECT,

PROBIBLY LEY AIR IN. I THINK THATS WHY YOU COVER THEM IN WINTER IF YOU

DONT TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WINDOW.

>

> Do window air conditioners bring in air from outside while running,

> or 'let in' air from outside while not running does anyone know?? It

> gets awfully moldy outside and need to air condition or dehumidify.

> Window units are cheaper than totally inside portable systems. I

> think I could survive by just dehumidifying but have never tried it

> before and concerned that since portable dehumidifiers let out heat

in

> the process of dehumidifying, although it would dry out apartment,

may

> make it just too, too hot. Does anyone have any information on this

> that would help? Thanks...very hot and humid for next couple of

> months and not feeling too well in it, affects my sleep and don't

feel

> like eating so I'll have to solve this.

>

[Guest guest]

DEHUMIDIFIERS, SOME PIT OUT MORE HEAT THAN OTHERS. LESS HUMIDITY FELL

FELL COOLER BUT WHEN ITS HOT OUT IT'S DTILL HOT. AC'S DEHUMIDIFY AND

COOL.

> >

> > Do window air conditioners bring in air from outside while

running,

> > or 'let in' air from outside while not running does anyone

know?? It

> > gets awfully moldy outside and need to air condition or

dehumidify.

> > Window units are cheaper than totally inside portable systems. I

> > think I could survive by just dehumidifying but have never tried

it

> > before and concerned that since portable dehumidifiers let out

heat

> in

> > the process of dehumidifying, although it would dry out

apartment,

> may

> > make it just too, too hot. Does anyone have any information on

this

> > that would help? Thanks...very hot and humid for next couple of

> > months and not feeling too well in it, affects my sleep and don't

> feel

> > like eating so I'll have to solve this.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jeanine. I can take alot of heat but there is a limit. I was

hoping I could do without buying an a/c since I have central air at

home and think I may be home in few months but I'm afraid the heat is

making me feel sick, taken my appetite away, can't sleep very well,

feel nauseated, developed what looks like canker sores on lower lip!!

My body is going haywire. I think I cannot continue to live in the

Ohio river valley. It is just too polluted and moldy here. Even

though I am in temporary apartment, feel sick like I did last summer.

Not quite as bad and house does have a problem that I am fixing but

think in summer the outside air contributes to feeling sick. I have

felt nauseated since summer began and lost appetite so think I will

have to turn apartment into cool, dry haven from the summer...one

expense after another. Regular a/c's don't look expensive but I have

sliding casement windows so a/c's for those are about 400-500, or

portable, about the same cost or tad higher.

>

> DEHUMIDIFIERS, SOME PIT OUT MORE HEAT THAN OTHERS

[Guest guest]

Window units generally recirculate the inside air, if you want to vent and open

the vent valve, even it is generally just a small hole about 1 inch square.

I don't know how well it will work in the humid climates, and with the heat

you probably would not want to do this anyway, but in dryer climates once the

day starts cooling down, the air conditioner can be switched to fan only, which

will dry out the evaporater cooling fins and the surrounding are and materials,

which once dry will eliminate the chance for mold spores to germinate.

In humid climates like the Midwest, the evaporater will not dry out as fast,

although your inside air will be dry due to running the air conditioner, but I'm

not sure how much benefit that would be since it stays warm even in the evening,

so by the time you get it dried out, you will want to turn it on again thus

creating condensation all over.

Buy two, have one running on AC and the other on fan only, and switch them

ever 8 hours, LOL... I know it's not funny, but perhaps this would be a

solution to eliminating the mold growth in Window Units. Obviously with central

units this cannot be done, and most installers don't drain the water properly on

central units anyway.

Dan

[Guest guest]

Actually Dan that's a good idea. You could have one run during the

day, turn it to fan only and have the other one run. I think that is

smart. Of course I don't want to buy two for a temporary location,

but if I needed a window unit, that would work I believe.

I'm tempted to try just a dehumidifier and turn a fan on myself since

I can always use a good extra dehumidifier. Thanks for your idea.

--- In , " Dan & Carmella " <moldstory@...>

wrote:

>

> Window units generally recirculate the inside air, if you want to

vent and open the vent valve, even it is generally just a small hole

about 1 inch square.

>

[Guest guest]

A friend of mine from New York said he thinks I could just take

inexpensive window unit and put it in room, and not hang it out

window. I'd probably have to put it in tub or something so it could

drain. He said this since I can get an inexpensive one for 90.00. I

have casement, sliding windows and they are hard to find and more

expensive. Does anyone know any reason why I should not run an a/c

window unit totally indoors? It would 'exhaust' indoors though. I

don't know if there is anything bad in the exhaust but it would

probably just make it harder to cool? Anyone know?? I have no

experience with window air conditioners.

--- In , " Dan & Carmella " <moldstory@...>

wrote:

>

> Window units generally recirculate the inside air, if you want to

vent and open the vent valve, even it is generally just a small hole

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I have gone several rounds with window unit AC's over the last couple

of years. So far, I'm winning.

If you want the air conditioner to cool, then you must hang it out

the window, or get a portable unit that vents its heat to the outside

through flexible ducts. If you just ran a window unit AC inside a

room, without having the heat dissipation coils on the outside, then

it would result in no net cooling. In fact, you would end up with

a pretty significant heat gain (similar to a dehumidifier).

I highly recommend that you do NOT open any vents to the outside on

a window unit AC. I silicone caulked our vent closed so that it could

not possibly come open. Generally, they are small vents, as someone

else said, that are only an inch, or so, square. They would not pull

in any significant amount of fresh air. What they would probably do

is pull in very sick air, from over the hot motor and drain pan.

Window unit AC's are made to hold water in a drain pan so that the

heat dissipation fan can dip into the water with a splash ring and

throw water on the heat dissipation coils. This improves the

efficiency of the heat dissipation through evaporative cooling.

But the drain pan can sit full of water, esp. when the unit is sitting

idle, and grow mold, attract and drown bugs. It's sick. Just plain

sick. I cleaned over two heaping handfulls of chopped up bug parts,

and other unidentifiable organic matter out of our drain pan this

year (and the unit was only two seasons old). You do NOT want to

suck air from over this pan into your house ! Ever !

In fact, you want to seal all the leaks you can around the casing

to the interior of the unit, and around the casing to the wall, so

that little if any air is able to migrate from the outside to the

inside around the unit.

Also, I recently got a Santa Fe Rx dehumidifier from Therma Stor.

It is the cadillac of dehumidifiers (Bling ! Bling !) Honestly, it

has taken me a while to warm up to this monster. But it is smacking

down the torrid humidity we have in East Tenn.. I bought my

specifically to run under our window unit AC. There it cleans

and dehumidfies the air before it goes into the AC. Generally,

the air coming out the back of the Santa Fe is 104 degrees F. So

there is a significant ! heat gain. It will raise the air temp

in the room it is in by around 10 degrees, but drop the humidity

by over 18-20 points. Today, for instance, we were able to tolerate

90 degrees at 28 percent humidity for several hours before we had

to resort to the AC. 28 percent humidity is VERY good for us.

Without the Sante Fe Rx, we would be running around 45 - 65 percent

humidity, too high for my tastes.

Do try to do something about your situation. Heat stress is no good,

esp. if you are ill to begin with. If nothing else, a small

window unit AC, and a portable dehumidifier from Wal-Mart would

make you more comfortable and get you started.

Best,

Todd

============================================

[Guest guest]

Barb, here's a good explanation of how air conditioning works.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac.htm

On 7/2/07, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> A friend of mine from New York said he thinks I could just take

> inexpensive window unit and put it in room, and not hang it out

> window. I'd probably have to put it in tub or something so it could

> drain. He said this since I can get an inexpensive one for 90.00. I

> have casement, sliding windows and they are hard to find and more

> expensive. Does anyone know any reason why I should not run an a/c

> window unit totally indoors? It would 'exhaust' indoors though. I

> don't know if there is anything bad in the exhaust but it would

> probably just make it harder to cool? Anyone know?? I have no

> experience with window air conditioners.

>

>

> >

> > Window units generally recirculate the inside air, if you want to

> vent and open the vent valve, even it is generally just a small hole

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I would NEVER open the " fresh air " vent on a modern window AC since it draws

in air from just inside the AC case. This is not just outside air, it is air

with aerosolized microbial soup from the condensate water.

This happens because there is a splash ring in a high efficiency AC that

splashes condensate water on the condensing coil. Just take a look inside

the case at the water and you will see why you don't want droplets from this

mess in your supply air.

Most portable AC units are expensive and not very efficient because they

expel air from the room through a window (to get rid of excess heat). This

reduces the pressure in the room and draws in air from elsewhere, defeating

the cooling.

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

617-354-1055

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

>Re: Air Conditioners

>Posted by: " who " jeaninem660@... osisposis

>Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

>THERES A VENT, OPEN BRING AIR IN FROM OUTSIDE, CLOSED RECIRCULATED

>INSIDE AIR. EVEN OFF, IF VENT IS OPEN AIR CAN COME IN FROM OUTSIDE.

>DONT KNOW FOR SURE BUT I THINK ALL AC'S HAVE VENT.

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Any time you try to do something, there is a loss of energy in the form of

heat. If you put the air conditioner inside and not in a window, the

electricity, the mechanics, and of course the heat transfer is all going to

generate more heat than the cooling part of the air conditioner is going to put

out. If you have ever stood outside and felt the heat a window unit is putting

off, it is barely tolerable. It would probably be cooler in your

house/apartment by turning on your oven.

Sorry, it is a nice idea, but it just won't work,

Dan

[Guest guest]

Maybe that is where my appetite went to, perhaps heat stress...?

Thanks to everyone for info on a/c units. I didn't think running a/c

inside made any sense but..? If it worked okay like that, why would

people hang them out the window or put holes in their wall!

>

Do try to do something about your situation. Heat stress is no good,

> esp. if you are ill to begin with. If nothing else, a small

> window unit AC, and a portable dehumidifier from Wal-Mart would

> make you more comfortable and get you started.

>

> Best,

> Todd

[Guest guest]

Jeff, I was considering the portable a/c's so appreciate knowing that

they aren't that hot. They are quite a bit more expensive but I

assumed that they worked well.

>

> Barb,

>

> Most portable AC units are expensive and not very efficient

[Guest guest]

Jeff, I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the portable a/c's

with the exhaust as well as air intake,two duct style of a/c's. It

looks to me like the two ducts are too close together and so you would

be drawing the exhaust air in, instead of 'fresh air'. Here is

picture of one:

http://www.allergybuyersclubshopping.com/ac-td-t32g.html

>

Most portable AC units are expensive and not very efficient because

they

> expel air from the room through a window (to get rid of excess

heat). This

> reduces the pressure in the room and draws in air from elsewhere,

defeating

> the cooling.

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I have seen photos of the dual-ducted portable Ac's and I think that taking

in outdoor air to eliminate the heat makes a lot of sense but I have no

personal experience with them. Using the heat (as this one does) to

evaporate some of the condensate water makes sense too, because emptying the

water manually from a portable AC is a real pain.

The model you cited has two filters but there is no mention of the MERV

rating and this is essential. Unless the filter has a MERV rating of at

least 8, it is inadequate. In this case, you will still have to use

supplemental filtration (such as Web Products AC filter material) on the

return air (for the cold air supply).

Portable AC's are expensive and a bit inconvenient and may not be worth the

expense if you can use a window unit.

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

617-354-1055

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

> 1c. Re: Air Conditioners

> Posted by: " barb1283 " barb1283@... barb1283

> Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

>

> Jeff, I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the portable a/c's

> with the exhaust as well as air intake,two duct style of a/c's. It

> looks to me like the two ducts are too close together and so you would

> be drawing the exhaust air in, instead of 'fresh air'. Here is

> picture of one:

>

> http://www.allergybuyersclubshopping.com/ac-td-t32g.html

>

>

>>

> Most portable AC units are expensive and not very efficient because

> they

>> expel air from the room through a window (to get rid of excess

> heat). This

>> reduces the pressure in the room and draws in air from elsewhere,

> defeating

>> the cooling.