Re: Re: New ammunition for our battle

[Guest guest]

Sorry, how do we find and print this article? I need to take it to my local

Drs.

Ditto!

who <_jeaninem660@jeaninem66jea_ (mailto:jeaninem660@...) > wrote:

did I miss it?, where is this file?

>

> I recently posted the summary of an article from the scientific

journal " Applied Environmental Microbiology " which claims to be the

FIRST use of a technology which has definitively proved the existence

of, AND SCIENTIFICALLY MEASURED THE QUANTITY OF, mycotoxins on indoor

surfaces. In my opinion, no previous printed attempts to link indoor

mycotoxins with illness have constituted what most doctors, judges

and lawyers would regard as " scientific " proof. As we all have

experienced, in our own lives, there is a gap between " what we know

to be true " , and " what can scientifically be proven true " , to the

minds of the non-moldie population. The article ends with the promise

to continue researching (and publishing) the connection between

mycotoxins and illness. That ongoing research is being conducted in

Sweden, a far more progressive country than ours, when it comes to

this type of research.

>

> I would like to thank Beth (DCBeth) for obtaining the PDF file of

the complete article, and the author's permission to post it on our

board. You can read, download, and print, the complete article from

our " Files " section. It is listed as " Mycotoxin Mass Spectrometry 7-

07.pdf " . I suggest that you all print out a copy to shove in the

face of all those highly credentialed " morons " that we all come

across, in our everyday struggle.

>

> To hit a home run, you first have to get a bat. This is a bat.

Swing away!

>

> Joe

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

---------------------------------

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

Joe,

A number of previous studies HAVE tested mycotoxins in indoor environments,

in the air and on particles in dust and filtered from air.. so that is not

the first they were talking about. The first they were talking about was in

the analysis method they used.

It probably is new, in the way they said, if they said it, but we, not being

scientists, need to read those papers carefully because they use language

which often we don't understand without having a glossary right next to us

to refer to word by word.

That said, there is a growing body of work that has already, IMO, proves

without a doubt that we have been getting sick because of the mycotoxins

produced by these molds and that they are very dangerous and they need to be

dealt with appropriately with no further delay because of special interests

whining.

[Guest guest]

Ditto!

who <jeaninem660@...> wrote: did I miss it?, where is this

file?

>

> I recently posted the summary of an article from the scientific

journal " Applied Environmental Microbiology " which claims to be the

FIRST use of a technology which has definitively proved the existence

of, AND SCIENTIFICALLY MEASURED THE QUANTITY OF, mycotoxins on indoor

surfaces. In my opinion, no previous printed attempts to link indoor

mycotoxins with illness have constituted what most doctors, judges

and lawyers would regard as " scientific " proof. As we all have

experienced, in our own lives, there is a gap between " what we know

to be true " , and " what can scientifically be proven true " , to the

minds of the non-moldie population. The article ends with the promise

to continue researching (and publishing) the connection between

mycotoxins and illness. That ongoing research is being conducted in

Sweden, a far more progressive country than ours, when it comes to

this type of research.

>

> I would like to thank Beth (DCBeth) for obtaining the PDF file of

the complete article, and the author's permission to post it on our

board. You can read, download, and print, the complete article from

our " Files " section. It is listed as " Mycotoxin Mass Spectrometry 7-

07.pdf " . I suggest that you all print out a copy to shove in the

face of all those highly credentialed " morons " that we all come

across, in our everyday struggle.

>

> To hit a home run, you first have to get a bat. This is a bat.

Swing away!

>

> Joe

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Is this the paper you meant?

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/13/4211

Applied and Environmental Microbiology, July 2007, p. 4211-4217, Vol. 73, No. 13

0099-2240/07/$08.00+0 doi:10.1128/AEM.00343-07

Copyright © 2007, American Society for Microbiology. .

Mass Spectrometry-Based Strategy for Direct Detection and

Quantification of Some Mycotoxins Produced by Stachybotrys and

Aspergillus spp. in Indoor Environments a Bloom,1 Karol Bal,2

Eva Nyman,3 Aime Must,4 and Lennart Larsson1*

Lund University, Department of Laboratory Medicine, Division of

Medical Microbiology, Lund, Sweden,1 Institute of Agricultural and

Food Biotechnology, Department of Food Analysis, 36 Rakowiecka St.,

02-532 Warsaw, Poland,2 TEKOMO Byggnadskvalitet AB, Hammargatan 11 A,

235 32 Vellinge, Sweden,3 AIMEX AB, Sandbergs Gata 24, 16934

Solna, Sweden4

Received 12 February 2007/ Accepted 1 May 2007

Dampness in buildings has been linked to adverse health effects,

but the specific causative agents are unknown. Mycotoxins are

secondary metabolites produced by molds and toxic to higher

vertebrates. In this study, mass spectrometry was used to demonstrate

the presence of mycotoxins predominantly produced by Aspergillus spp.

and Stachybotrys spp. in buildings with either ongoing dampness or a

history of water damage. Verrucarol and trichodermol, hydrolysis

products of macrocyclic trichothecenes (including satratoxins), and

trichodermin, predominately produced by Stachybotrys chartarum, were

analyzed by gas chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry, whereas

sterigmatocystin (mainly produced by Aspergillus versicolor),

satratoxin G, and satratoxin H were analyzed by high-performance

liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry. These mycotoxin

analytes were demonstrated in 45 of 62 building material samples

studied, in three of eight settled dust samples, and in five of eight

cultures of airborne dust samples. This is the first report on the use

of tandem mass spectrometry for demonstrating mycotoxins in dust

settled on surfaces above floor level in damp buildings. The direct

detection of the highly toxic sterigmatocystin and macrocyclic

trichothecene mycotoxins in indoor environments is important due to

their potential health impacts.

________________________________

* Corresponding author. Mailing address: Dept. of Laboratory

Medicine, Division of Medical Microbiology, Lund University,

Sölvegatan 23, 223 62 Lund, Sweden. Phone: 46 46 177298. Fax: 46 46

189117. E-mail: Lennart.Larsson@... Published ahead of

print on 4 May 2007.

[Guest guest]

If you go to the above link and then click on 'Similar articles in

this journal' there is a lot of other research that has been published

in AEM ( http://aem.asm.org/ ) which is relevant too.

[Guest guest]

Joe,

I agree with LiveSimply on this one. Sometimes the semantics are

subtle and we have to be careful with how we interpret information.

This study identifies a method of measuring mycotoxins (limited to

two species) but not a method for determining is mycotoxins do

anything to people. This means we might be able to " prove " the

presence of mycotoxins. But measuring is not the same a causing.

The mycotoxin issues have risen to prominance lately, and for good

reason. Direct experience points toward mycotoxin involvement. The

experts can't refute it with traditional mold testing methods,

although the ACOEM report tried. Then Texas Tech discovered a lab

method for testing but it was closed. Now this report has an

additional method of detecting mycotoxins.

So what this says is (some mycotoxins) can now be detected and

measured. What none of these studies say is whether or not the

mycotoxins they measure are causing the symptoms or disease. Mere

presence is not sufficient proof. Now they need further studies to

see what effect, if any, mycotoxins have on lab cultures, animals and

people.

Causation of disease tends to follow Koch's Postulates for infectious

disease. (Notice the difference between " disease " and " infectious

disease " ).

Koch's Postulates, paraphrased, requires proof of infectious disease

to include:

1. Isolating the organism suspected causing the infection

2. Growing it in the lab

3. Infecting another host with the grown organism

4. Re-isolating the organism

Clearly, if it isn't infectious it can't be proven with this method.

Yet, this is often the " model " for proof. Create a hypothesis and

test it with cross-checking.

Mycotoxins aren't infectious so what they cause can't be proven with

Koch's Postulates. But SOME method generally accepted as

scientifically valid (and corrupted by politics) is what the research

and courts will look for.

What we can say, based on this study, is along the lines of:

" Mycotoxins are a possibility with insufficient time to have been

adequately studied. Until the evidence is in we can't prove it causes

anything BUT neither can you prove is doesn't. "

I've just discussed parts of scientific and/or legal proof. The

evidence we each need to take care of ourselves is much different. If

mold is visible, remove it without cross-contaminating and stop the

moisture sources that caused it to grow. If mold is not visible but

conditions conducive to mold growth are, fix those conditions.

In other words, don't wait for the ultimate proof. Take care of

yourself by removing the mold. If that isn't possible, remove

yourself from the mold. If that isn't possible - and it isn't for

many on this group - then read their horror stories so you can

prepare for what may well happen for you.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Joe,

>

> A number of previous studies HAVE tested mycotoxins in indoor environments,

> in the air and on particles in dust and filtered from air.. so that is not

> the first they were talking about. The first they were talking about was in

> the analysis method they used.

>

> It probably is new, in the way they said, if they said it, but we, not being

> scientists, need to read those papers carefully because they use language

> which often we don't understand without having a glossary right next to us

> to refer to word by word.

>

> That said, there is a growing body of work that has already, IMO, proves

> without a doubt that we have been getting sick because of the mycotoxins

> produced by these molds and that they are very dangerous and they need to be

> dealt with appropriately with no further delay because of special interests

> whining.

[Guest guest]

Carl, I got Marcie on the phone and just read your response to Joe. Marcie

says, " I see you got over your jet lag " . Great response Carl. Call me

later. " LOL " . Marcie and Darlene

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Joe,

I agree with LiveSimply on this one. Sometimes the semantics are

subtle and we have to be careful with how we interpret information.

This study identifies a method of measuring mycotoxins (limited to

two species) but not a method for determining is mycotoxins do

anything to people. This means we might be able to " prove " the

presence of mycotoxins. But measuring is not the same a causing.

The mycotoxin issues have risen to prominance lately, and for good

reason. Direct experience points toward mycotoxin involvement. The

experts can't refute it with traditional mold testing methods,

although the ACOEM report tried. Then Texas Tech discovered a lab

method for testing but it was closed. Now this report has an

additional method of detecting mycotoxins.

So what this says is (some mycotoxins) can now be detected and

measured. What none of these studies say is whether or not the

mycotoxins they measure are causing the symptoms or disease. Mere

presence is not sufficient proof. Now they need further studies to

see what effect, if any, mycotoxins have on lab cultures, animals and

people.

Causation of disease tends to follow Koch's Postulates for infectious

disease. (Notice the difference between " disease " and " infectious

disease " ).

Koch's Postulates, paraphrased, requires proof of infectious disease

to include:

1. Isolating the organism suspected causing the infection

2. Growing it in the lab

3. Infecting another host with the grown organism

4. Re-isolating the organism

Clearly, if it isn't infectious it can't be proven with this method.

Yet, this is often the " model " for proof. Create a hypothesis and

test it with cross-checking.

Mycotoxins aren't infectious so what they cause can't be proven with

Koch's Postulates. But SOME method generally accepted as

scientifically valid (and corrupted by politics) is what the research

and courts will look for.

What we can say, based on this study, is along the lines of:

" Mycotoxins are a possibility with insufficient time to have been

adequately studied. Until the evidence is in we can't prove it causes

anything BUT neither can you prove is doesn't. "

I've just discussed parts of scientific and/or legal proof. The

evidence we each need to take care of ourselves is much different. If

mold is visible, remove it without cross-contaminating and stop the

moisture sources that caused it to grow. If mold is not visible but

conditions conducive to mold growth are, fix those conditions.

In other words, don't wait for the ultimate proof. Take care of

yourself by removing the mold. If that isn't possible, remove

yourself from the mold. If that isn't possible - and it isn't for

many on this group - then read their horror stories so you can

prepare for what may well happen for you.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Joe,

>

> A number of previous studies HAVE tested mycotoxins in indoor environments,

> in the air and on particles in dust and filtered from air.. so that is not

> the first they were talking about. The first they were talking about was in

> the analysis method they used.

>

> It probably is new, in the way they said, if they said it, but we, not being

> scientists, need to read those papers carefully because they use language

> which often we don't understand without having a glossary right next to us

> to refer to word by word.

>

> That said, there is a growing body of work that has already, IMO, proves

> without a doubt that we have been getting sick because of the mycotoxins

> produced by these molds and that they are very dangerous and they need to be

> dealt with appropriately with no further delay because of special interests

> whining.

---------------------------------

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Guest guest]

, I have to agree with you,. I think the more stories we have out there,

and yes sending them to our government officials, and even leaving some in the

doctor's offices on our next visits (in their waiting rooms). We need as many

people aware of these dangers from molds. We need to get the stories out in

numbers, not just 2 or 3. We need to be heard, we don't need to see another

victim die from these illnesses. Darlene

ldelp84227 <ldelp84227@...> wrote: Thanks

Carl for info. For me I am finally away from mold and I don't

have any kind of case going on. Mostly I am afraid about the candida

that has been in my body for nine years. Is there proof there cuz when

I went to the infectious disease doctor in 2000 he said yeast won't

hurt you, go on a low carb diet. He said I was borderline

imunosuppressive. I am allergic to candida and I have tried just about

everything. I think I will eventually die from the yeast.

Mostly I am trying to get our government to do something. I can hardly

live with knowing that we have such criminal people running this

country, the doctors, pharmaceuticals, our food, even some scientists.

Recently I went to my doctor and told him how afraid I am of the

candida, etc. He told me the cost would be astronomical so he

suggested to go to a clinic. How can I expect a clinic to be of help

if when I had the best insurance and went to the top doctors that I

still didn't get proper medical care. Sometimes I just feel like

letting go. What kind of country does this to the people. I won't

give up, but I feel like it.

---------------------------------

Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel and

lay it on us.

[Guest guest]

I think that " getting this information out there " without a WELL coordinated

effort to influence the response to it could result in thousands or even

millions of renters losing their rented apartments because the owners of

their buildings, moldy or not, will see the liability issue as their ticket

to sell out and leave the housing biz, or extract huge chunks of taxpayer

money " to preserve affordable housing " with NO guarantees that it will be

spent wisely or even spent to preserve housing.

In other words, slumlords have known for a long time that mold makes their

tenants sick (after all, its in the Bible) but largely, because of the lack

of opposition or real sanctions, they have been able to PLAY dumb and get

away with murder or close.

When they are no longer able to play dumb, they will want OUT of the rental

biz, they will want all those poor people out of their buildings, and the

logical way they will go about it is by trying to sell their buildings to

the government or tearing them down. The money to buy themor replace them

isn't forthcoming so they will want to tear them down.

Many people here seem to think that low income people have some kind of

legal right to have housing, somewhere. They don't.

The price of housing is determined by supply and demand, and so, if any

significantly large number of the 'affordable' units suddenly go off the

market, the remaining units will increase in value, making the owners of

those units anxious to increase rents on THEM too.

What is needed is some way to make mold remediation much more of a path that

owners will be willing to undertake. How that might happen I can't guess.

IMO, that is what we should be talking about on this list, rather than

sending each other 'hugz', etc.

Otherwise, many MORE of the people who are dealing with mold illness today

will be on Skid Row or living in their cars or trailers tomorrow.. that is,

if they can afford to.

Seriously, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF ALL OF THIS AND

PLAN FOR THS CHANGE...

[Guest guest]

,

Candida is treatable with antifungals (as opposed to antibiotics).

Because they require a prescription you need a doctor that

understands the condition and the treatment. When I changed insurance

plans a few years ago my new doctor insisted I take an HIV test

because I was on antifungals - she believed the only way to have

yeast overgrowth was from HIV. When I refused I was sent to an

infectious disease specialist. He said he knew about Candida and

wanted to change the prescription. I agreed but only on the condition

that if I reacted badly or if the new one didn't work that I go back

on the current one. He agreed.

However, when his new Rx didn't work I asked my GP to put me back on

the one I came in with. She said the specialist put in his directions

to NOT put me back on it. I said thank you but I will be leaving

now. And I never returned. I went to a doctor - costing much more -

that knew how to keep me well.

The anti-fungals were (and are) a key to what got me better and able

to continue to function. But that was exactly what was ignored,

prefering his belief over my experience.

It's not always the " top doctors " that help. Instead, it's the " right

doctor " for you condition.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Thanks Carl for info. For me I am finally away from mold and I don't

> have any kind of case going on. Mostly I am afraid about the candida

> that has been in my body for nine years. Is there proof there cuz when

> I went to the infectious disease doctor in 2000 he said yeast won't

> hurt you, go on a low carb diet. He said I was borderline

> imunosuppressive. I am allergic to candida and I have tried just about

> everything. I think I will eventually die from the yeast.

>

> Mostly I am trying to get our government to do something. I can hardly

> live with knowing that we have such criminal people running this

> country, the doctors, pharmaceuticals, our food, even some scientists.

> Recently I went to my doctor and told him how afraid I am of the

> candida, etc. He told me the cost would be astronomical so he

> suggested to go to a clinic. How can I expect a clinic to be of help

> if when I had the best insurance and went to the top doctors that I

> still didn't get proper medical care. Sometimes I just feel like

> letting go. What kind of country does this to the people. I won't

> give up, but I feel like it.

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

Just like with all other medications and conditions, some make it

worse and others might help. This is why the doctor you choose is so

important. Just like dentists, mold consultants, car mechanics or

mold remediators. Our own education on these matters is critical to

make better choices about who we rely on for help.

Antibiotics are likely to make candida worse but antifungals are

likely to make it better.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> it seams some antibiotics and medicines would keep this condition

> aggervated or make it worse. ??

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > Candida is treatable with antifungals (as opposed to antibiotics).

> > Because they require a prescription you need a doctor that

> > understands the condition and the treatment. When I changed

> insurance

> > plans a few years ago my new doctor insisted I take an HIV test

> > because I was on antifungals - she believed the only way to have

> > yeast overgrowth was from HIV. When I refused I was sent to an

> > infectious disease specialist. He said he knew about Candida and

> > wanted to change the prescription. I agreed but only on the

> condition

> > that if I reacted badly or if the new one didn't work that I go

> back

> > on the current one. He agreed.

> >

> > However, when his new Rx didn't work I asked my GP to put me back

> on

> > the one I came in with. She said the specialist put in his

> directions

> > to NOT put me back on it. I said thank you but I will be leaving

> > now. And I never returned. I went to a doctor - costing much more -

> > that knew how to keep me well.

> >

> > The anti-fungals were (and are) a key to what got me better and

> able

> > to continue to function. But that was exactly what was ignored,

> > prefering his belief over my experience.

> >

> > It's not always the " top doctors " that help. Instead, it's

> the " right

> > doctor " for you condition.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> > > Thanks Carl for info. For me I am finally away from mold and I

> don't

> > > have any kind of case going on. Mostly I am afraid about the

> candida

> > > that has been in my body for nine years. Is there proof there

> cuz when

> > > I went to the infectious disease doctor in 2000 he said yeast

> won't

> > > hurt you, go on a low carb diet. He said I was borderline

> > > imunosuppressive. I am allergic to candida and I have tried just

> about

> > > everything. I think I will eventually die from the yeast.

> > >

> > > Mostly I am trying to get our government to do something. I can

> hardly

> > > live with knowing that we have such criminal people running this

> > > country, the doctors, pharmaceuticals, our food, even some

> scientists.

> > > Recently I went to my doctor and told him how afraid I am of the

> > > candida, etc. He told me the cost would be astronomical so he

> > > suggested to go to a clinic. How can I expect a clinic to be of

> help

> > > if when I had the best insurance and went to the top doctors that

> I

> > > still didn't get proper medical care. Sometimes I just feel like

> > > letting go. What kind of country does this to the people. I

> won't

> > > give up, but I feel like it.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Joe,

I didn't mean to rain on your parade or take away your joy. I

recognize the breakthrough and I celebrate it with you! I've been

waiting for this also. Yes, we are getting somewhere with the

breakthrough that measures mycotoxins. It is an important and

necessary step in a long process.

But it is NOT proof of what we most need - that mycotoxin exposure

causes our problems. It is NOT something to take to your doctor as

proof that your illness is caused by mold. It is not something to

wave in the face of anyone as authoritative verification of our being

victimized by mold exposure.

I join you in celebrating what it is: A very important step in the progress

we all desparately need.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Carl,

> You are a brilliant guy, and everything you said was absolutely true.

> But, like all of us, myself included, you are failing to recognize

> the truly momentous breakthrough that has occurred. I had to read the

> article 3 times, before I grasped it, myself. As I understand the

> article,(and I will try to confirm this by emailing the article's

> author) the breakthrough is NOT JUST the using the technique of " mass

> spectrometry " as a new way to SEE mycotoxins, but that this new way

> of " seeing " allows us, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER TO COUNT THE NASTY

> STUFF (Quantification).

>

> In science, nothing can be researched, until it is able to be measured

> (quantified)first. Only by " measuring " something, in the environment,

> can that " something " ever be correlated to the degree of illness and

> suffering that is experienced in the human body. This would be the

> PROOF that we have all been looking for. The authors of this article

> say, in the last paragraph of the article, that they HAVE ALREADY

> STARTED research on correlating the quantification of the mycotoxins

> with the presence of illness. If the research were being done

> somewhere closer than Sweden, I would volunteer to sweep their floors

> and wash their test tubes, for free, to help them in their research.

>

> I have taken the time off from being with my 91 year old father who

> is hospitalized with bronchitis (in large part due to a 2 year mold

> exposure, in the past)to post this reply, and reply to others which

> were sent directly to my email address, NOT TO PICK A FIGHT, but to

> say " Hallelulah!!!!!!!!!!!! We are finally getting somewhere. " Please

> accept my reply in the manner that I am making it. Share my joy.

>

> Joe

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > Joe,

> >

> > I agree with LiveSimply on this one. Sometimes the semantics are

> > subtle and we have to be careful with how we interpret information.

> >

> > This study identifies a method of measuring mycotoxins (limited to

> > two species) but not a method for determining if mycotoxins do

> > anything to people. This means we might be able to " prove " the

> > presence of mycotoxins. But measuring is not the same a causing.

> >

> > So what this says is (some mycotoxins) can now be detected and

> > measured. What none of these studies say is whether or not the

> > mycotoxins they measure are causing the symptoms or disease. Mere

> > presence is not sufficient proof. Now they need further studies to

> > see what effect, if any, mycotoxins have on lab cultures, animals

> and people.

> >

> >so that is not the first they were talking about. The first they

> >were talking about was in the analysis method they used.