Re: The Mold Sense

[Guest guest]

Growing mold colonies actually produce substantial amounts of VOCs that ARE

chemicals - They are the same kinds of chemicals produced in lots of other

contexts.. so there is no functional difference on the VOC level. Many VOCs

effect receptors in the trigeminal nerve.. I've read many times, but I am

not really an expert on what that means. Maybe that they make you feel sick?

(my memory isn't so good for these things but I remember the trigeminal

nerve effects balance, etc. so perhaps these chemicals make you nauseous in

addition to some f them being directly toxic)

How to find out what volatile gaseous chemicals molds produce? You can use

PubMed, which means you go to

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=PubMed and enter in " fungi vocs "

(without the quotes) - or phrases along those lines.. With that phrase

(thanks Jeanine) you will get a lot of papers that describe the chemicals

produced by molds that are gaseous and volatile (which means they dissapate

into the air and cant be caught in a filter like a spore trap)

The first two of around 100 papers returned listed these general classes of

chemicals found in the VOCs from molds and bacteria growing on wet building

materials. I took the abstracts from the first two papers and grabbed the

following words using cut and paste..

amines, aldehydes, alcohols, ketones, Acids, trimethylamine,

triethylamine,hydrocarbons, sulfur- and nitrogen-containing compounds,

dimethoxymethane, 1,3,5-trioxepane, terpenes...

Hope this info helps people get the info they need!

....

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your impressions. I often wonder how difficult it is to

experience mold independent of chemicals.

If I were to guess I would say that mold causes anxiety, headaches,

fatigue and nausea to a greater degree than chemicals. Chemicals

cause hyperactivity more often. This is what I have observed in my

kids.

I get fatigued and irritable which doing alot of yardwork in damp

areas, and when cleaning mold in the house. I don't react to

chemicals as much as they do at this time in my life...but I think

they do make me slightly hyper as well.

EMF sensitivity seems more intense when molds are present.

I'd be interested in hearing other impressions.

-K

>

> Can we talk about the mold sense vs. the chemical sense? For those

of

> you who now have MCS after your exposure, how can you tell the

> difference between molds/chemical exposure?

>

> I had this exact feeling in my sick building:

>

> 1. Skin itching that later can become burning.

> This also usually becomes burning after a while. I first sense

this on

> the left part of my body, even if the whole body was equally

exposed.

>

> I felt like the left side of my body was being radiated. Wonder

why?

> Can't some chemicals cause this burning sensation as well?

>

> For me number two happens with chemicals. I can be sitting in my

car

> four lanes away from the edge of a water park and being to get the

> nausea from the chlorine.

> 2. The first sensation is usually accompanied with a sensation of

> slight nausea. I can feel as if I am inhaling certain particles

> like a kind of vapor that burns the lungs and stomach inside.

>

> I seem to get number 3 with molds and chemicals

> 3. After about 10 minutes I usually get my first GI tract symptoms

> that in the previous years almost always came down to loose and

> frequent stools and the constant nauseated feeling.

>

> Seems like if I stay for too long in moldy/chemical area I get #4

> 4 Neurological problems and I can't sleep well, or don't feel

> refreshed after sleep.

>

> Is there any real way to know when one is exposed to only molds or

> only chemicals?

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I can still tolerate other household chemicals and they won't

give me symptoms even remotely similar to mycotoxins. For instance, I

can use bleach (sodium hypochlorite) for a short while without

problems. After some time I might get headache or become nauseated,

but obviously it will go away as soon as chlorine goes outside. On the

skin I can feel burning from bleach, but it's the characteristic

burning of sodium hypochlorite if it is held on the skin for a really

lond time so as to cause irritation. That's hardly unique for me.

Chlorine from the air does not cause me any skin sensations... so far.

The closest sensation to mycotoxins that I got from a non-mycotoxin

compound was when I handled TSP (Tri Sodium Phosphate). It was

promoted in one canary group as a good cleaner, but its vapors burned

my skin and made me nauseated. Later I found out in its MSDS (material

safety data sheet) that it really does cause such side-effects.

Therefore I was not oversensitive. It affects all people in that way.

I really have no idea why would any canary - someone sensitive to

chemicals - decide to use such an irritating substance. Luckily, it

was easy to remove from objects.

I don't doubt there are people who get similar senstations to mine

from other chemicals, but the symptoms I mentioned are VERY specific

for mycotoxins in my case.

-Branislav

>

> Can we talk about the mold sense vs. the chemical sense? For those of

> you who now have MCS after your exposure, how can you tell the

> difference between molds/chemical exposure?

>

> I had this exact feeling in my sick building:

>

> 1. Skin itching that later can become burning.

> This also usually becomes burning after a while. I first sense this on

> the left part of my body, even if the whole body was equally exposed.

>

> I felt like the left side of my body was being radiated. Wonder why?

> Can't some chemicals cause this burning sensation as well?

>

> For me number two happens with chemicals. I can be sitting in my car

> four lanes away from the edge of a water park and being to get the

> nausea from the chlorine.

> 2. The first sensation is usually accompanied with a sensation of

> slight nausea. I can feel as if I am inhaling certain particles

> like a kind of vapor that burns the lungs and stomach inside.

>

> I seem to get number 3 with molds and chemicals

> 3. After about 10 minutes I usually get my first GI tract symptoms

> that in the previous years almost always came down to loose and

> frequent stools and the constant nauseated feeling.

>

> Seems like if I stay for too long in moldy/chemical area I get #4

> 4 Neurological problems and I can't sleep well, or don't feel

> refreshed after sleep.

>

> Is there any real way to know when one is exposed to only molds or

> only chemicals?

[Guest guest]

-Branislav,

From your use of the term " vapors " it sounds like the TSP you used

was a liquid or a gel. The only form I've used was a powder that was

dissolved into water. There were no vapors with that and I had no

problems. If you did use it in other than the powder form, then your

reactions may have been from another ingrediant. I'd be interested in

knowing what you used.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Well, I can still tolerate other household chemicals and they won't

> give me symptoms even remotely similar to mycotoxins. For instance, I

> can use bleach (sodium hypochlorite) for a short while without

> problems. After some time I might get headache or become nauseated,

> but obviously it will go away as soon as chlorine goes outside. On the

> skin I can feel burning from bleach, but it's the characteristic

> burning of sodium hypochlorite if it is held on the skin for a really

> lond time so as to cause irritation. That's hardly unique for me.

> Chlorine from the air does not cause me any skin sensations... so far.

>

>

>

> The closest sensation to mycotoxins that I got from a non-mycotoxin

> compound was when I handled TSP (Tri Sodium Phosphate). It was

> promoted in one canary group as a good cleaner, but its vapors burned

> my skin and made me nauseated. Later I found out in its MSDS (material

> safety data sheet) that it really does cause such side-effects.

> Therefore I was not oversensitive. It affects all people in that way.

> I really have no idea why would any canary - someone sensitive to

> chemicals - decide to use such an irritating substance. Luckily, it

> was easy to remove from objects.

>

> I don't doubt there are people who get similar senstations to mine

> from other chemicals, but the symptoms I mentioned are VERY specific

> for mycotoxins in my case.

>

>

> -Branislav

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Can we talk about the mold sense vs. the chemical sense? For those of

> > you who now have MCS after your exposure, how can you tell the

> > difference between molds/chemical exposure?

> >

> > I had this exact feeling in my sick building:

> >

> > 1. Skin itching that later can become burning.

> > This also usually becomes burning after a while. I first sense this on

> > the left part of my body, even if the whole body was equally exposed.

> >

> > I felt like the left side of my body was being radiated. Wonder why?

> > Can't some chemicals cause this burning sensation as well?

> >

> > For me number two happens with chemicals. I can be sitting in my car

> > four lanes away from the edge of a water park and being to get the

> > nausea from the chlorine.

> > 2. The first sensation is usually accompanied with a sensation of

> > slight nausea. I can feel as if I am inhaling certain particles

> > like a kind of vapor that burns the lungs and stomach inside.

> >

> > I seem to get number 3 with molds and chemicals

> > 3. After about 10 minutes I usually get my first GI tract symptoms

> > that in the previous years almost always came down to loose and

> > frequent stools and the constant nauseated feeling.

> >

> > Seems like if I stay for too long in moldy/chemical area I get #4

> > 4 Neurological problems and I can't sleep well, or don't feel

> > refreshed after sleep.

> >

> > Is there any real way to know when one is exposed to only molds or

> > only chemicals?

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

A lot of the VOCs emitted by molds are the same VOCs emitted by chemicals.

They ARE chemicals.

amines, aldehydes, alcohols, ketones, acids, trimethylamine,

triethylamine,hydrocarbons, sulfur- and nitrogen-containing compounds,

dimethoxymethane, 1,3,5-trioxepane, terpenes...

Many of those are broad categories that can each emcompass many many

different compounds..gases, etc.

Mycotoxins are chemicals too.. complex (and dangerous and very powerful)

ones..

So saying mold vs. chemicals misses out on that important fact that growing

molds produce chemicals, lots of them, both solid and gaseous. Molds produce

chemicals..

Molds are chemical factories..

A very moldy building is like a chemical factory in more ways than mamy

realize.....

[Guest guest]

>

> -Branislav,

>

> From your use of the term " vapors " it sounds like the TSP you used

> was a liquid or a gel. The only form I've used was a powder that was

> dissolved into water. There were no vapors with that and I had no

> problems. If you did use it in other than the powder form, then your

> reactions may have been from another ingrediant. I'd be interested in

> knowing what you used.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

Carl,

It was solid powder, and no it wasn't mixed with any other substance.

It was sold as pure TSP. I shouldn't have used the term " vapors " . It

probably irritated me directly in the form of dust while I was

handling it.

It can cause irritation to skin and GI tract even in powder form. It

seems I just detect certain chemicals at the concentrations that other

people can't detect, let alone be bothered about. I don't react to all

chemicals in this way, only to a very few. I swear I didn't know TSP's

chemical properties before I used it, so any " psychological "

predisposition to my reaction is out of question.

Take a look at these sites:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics1178.htm

http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/chemical/trisodph/cie102.htm

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS

Effects of Short-Term (Acute) Exposure

Inhalation:

According to one report, irritation of the nose and throat was

caused by exposure to 0.5 to 2.0 mg/m3 airborne dust for one hour.

Irritation has also been reported after short exposures above 7-10

mg/m3.(1) High concentrations of dust or mists from concentration

solutions are probably severely irritating or corrosive, based on pH.

Trisodium phosphate does not form a vapour.

Skin Contact:

The solid material can probably cause moderate to severe

irritation, especially if in contact with moisture or trapped under

clothing. The degree of irritation of solutions varies depending on

the concentration of the solution and the duration of contact. Water

solutions with concentrations of 0.1% (pH 11.5) or greater may be

corrosive or severely irritating.

Eye Contact:

Dusts and concentrated solutions can be corrosive. The factors

which determine the extent and reversibility of the injury include the

concentration of solution or the amount of trisodium phosphate which

comes into contact with the eye and the duration of contact. Permanent

damage (cloudiness of the cornea) has resulted from contact with

trisodium phosphate solution in two case reports, one involving hot

solution. Concentrations were not reported.(2) In another case report,

injury occurred as a result of a splash of aqueous solution, but

healed within 48 hours (concentration not reported).(3)

Ingestion:

There are no reports of workers ingesting trisodium phosphate. It

is used in very small quantities in food to increase alkalinity.

Ingestion of a large amount would likely cause severe pain, burns to

the mouth and the digestive tract, vomiting, and diarrhea. In severe

cases, death could result. Ingestion is not a typical route of

occupational exposure.

[Guest guest]

For me you smell the mold right away. See we can detect things that

others can't. I can tell most things that are bothering me. If

someone walks into the house and you can detect that aroma everywhere

usually that causes me to get a headache, or I start getting more

mucus production where I almost choke on the mucus. I use to use all

the products, stuff on my hair all the cleaning products, air

freshners, and when I got ill from mold I became sensitive to most

everything smoke, gasoline, the grill, cooking odors, even when my

husband would come in with a pizza or Macs I could smell the

stuff they spray on the pizza boxes which is the same stuff they use

in teflon.

If I get a headache I look around to see what is near that could be

causing a headache. I don't usually just take an Advil, I look for

the problem. Lately I have been sitting in a chair and I notice I

get a headache or don't feel very well when I sit there. So I have

been trying to see when I move to the couch if I feel better, and

usually I do. I am doing this test daily and if it continues I will

throw out the chair. It isn't very old but we had it in storage for

a year so maybe something happened to it.

I am pretty good at detecting things cuz I have had this illness for

so long, but there are times that I have been someplace and all of a

sudden I get a migraine and I barely have enough time to get home and

I start the vomiting, and of course go to bathroom many times. Guess

my body is trying to rid itself of whatever I got near. One time I

was at the pool just sitting there but the sunscreen on the lady next

to me got to me. I had to rush home and vomited all night. I just

use zinc oxide but unfortunately I don't have a pool at my new

place. I was pretty good around the pool at my last place, but

there are pools that have too much chlorine and I can't get in. Just

my two cents. But just remember with mold illness you can be ok with

fragrances one day then the next you can no longer handle many

products. My hubby also has this problem and he didn't at first.

---

[Guest guest]

> A lot of the VOCs emitted by molds are the same VOCs emitted by

chemicals.

> They ARE chemicals.

> amines, aldehydes, alcohols, ketones, acids, trimethylamine,

> triethylamine,hydrocarbons, sulfur- and nitrogen-containing compounds,

> dimethoxymethane, 1,3,5-trioxepane, terpenes...

>

> Many of those are broad categories that can each emcompass many many

> different compounds..gases, etc.

>

> Mycotoxins are chemicals too.. complex (and dangerous and very

powerful)

> ones..

>

> So saying mold vs. chemicals misses out on that important fact that

growing

> molds produce chemicals, lots of them, both solid and gaseous. Molds

produce

> chemicals..

>

> Molds are chemical factories..

>

> A very moldy building is like a chemical factory in more ways than >mamy

> realize.....

That is true, LS.

But VOCs are mold's primary metabolites whose main function is to help

them decompose or 'digest' the material they are growing on. So,

although most of these compounds are probably irritating and toxic to

us, I think they are not as nearly toxic as mycotoxins - secondary

metabolites of molds whose primary function is to KILL other competitors.

I think our main problem is mycotoxins. The governments probably know

that, but they are playing with the general public knowledge when they

mix the effects of VOCs and mycotoxins and thus downplay the problem.

When they say " oh, it's just that musty harmless mold " , they are in

fact making people associate molds with their VOCs, which aren't so

terribly poisonous... and then by doing so will downplay the whole

thing. People will remember they saw and smelled the musty VOCs many

times and felt nothing terrible, so the experts must be right when

they say there's unfounded hysteria about molds? Of course not.

So we have to rub into their noses what mycotoxins can do.